Flight Radio Telephony Operators Licence - Validity

[Mickey Kaye]

If you are a UK PPL holder for how long is the FRTOL is valid for. My licence issued in 1991 states that it is for life.

I haven't flown for 15 years and recently got my BCPL reissued (which states that it is only valid for 10 years) and the CAA are telling me that I have to resit the RT exam.

However the person who I was looking at sittiing it with tells me that my licence is valid for life and that I don't need to sit the test.

Can anyone shed any light onto this before I ring the CAA back.

cheers

[AMEandPPL]

If you are a UK PPL holder for how long is the FRTOL valid ? My licence issued in 1991 states that it is for life

Until this question arose I would have thought that too ! So I just went to look at my R/T licence, which was issued in Nov 1982 !

It says on it : "This licence is valid for the same period as the licence the number of which is shown below". The number shown below is that of my original PPL, which is non-expiring (valid so long as it is accompanied by up-to-date C.of.E and current medical).

If your original PPL has been replaced by a BCPL, maybe they are saying that the PPL has ceased to exist, and therefore (according to the above wording) the R/T licence has also ceased to exist !

Obviously needs to be clarified with FCL !

[nick14]

I think that as long as you keep your BCPL valid, via check and reissues then your RT licence should remain valid.

Its the same with most things, My IR becomes invalid as soon as my ME rating expires, If I fly an ME renewal then it becomes valid again.

Nick

[Mickey Kaye]

And having spoken to the FCL thats my take on it also.

Basically if I had never passed the ATPL exams, GFT and got a BCPL issued then it would still be valid but as I have gone to all that trouble it's now only valid for 10 years - I think.

[Jumbo Driver]

Historically, the FRTOL was issued as being "valid for the same period as the licence to which it is attached." In the case of a UK PPL, therefore, this meant it was valid for life.

When UK licence validities were aligned with JAR, the FRTOL was given a maximum period of validity of 10 years, as currently reflected in Schedule 8 of the ANO (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf).

However, to answer your question, Mickey Kaye, my advice from SRG/PLD today is that a FRTOL which has expired will be renewed at no charge, simply by application and no re-testing will be required. I would have thought this should have been automatic with the re-issue of your BCPL.


JD
:)

[Mickey Kaye]

JD Cheers for your reply.

When I orginally spoke to the CAA on what I would need to do to get my BCPL and FI rating reissued there was no mention that I would need to renew the FROTL. It also never occured to me to question it.

Once I met the requirements for my BCPL renewal and in the envolope I recieved back from the CAA with it freshly issued there was a note saying that my FRTOL was no longer valid.

I then made enquireis about resitting it only to be told that I didn't have to. Therefore I spoke to the CAA who told me (today) that it had in fact expired and would need redoing.

Do you by any chance no who you spoke to. And if it is renewed by application which forms I have to fill in.

[AMEandPPL]

I spoke to the CAA who told me (today) that it had, in fact, expired and would need redoing

Seems a bit harsh, but hey ho ! In aviation circles we get used to the fact that : "Bureaucracy rules, OK ? "

If you DO eventually need to do another R/T test, and looking at your location, might I suggest giving Malcolm Dobson a call at LBA ? His contact details have already been mentioned in another thread on here about "PPL R/T practical ".

[Jumbo Driver]

Mickey, check your PMs ...

JD
:)

[Windrusher]

my advice from SRG/PLD today is that a FRTOL which has expired will be renewed at no charge, simply by application and no re-testing will be required

I'm delighted if that's now the case, as it wasn't so a few years ago (2001, I think). As a glider pilot, I had no CAA-recognized licence to which my FRTOL could be attached, so at its expiry after 10 years I had to pay £70-odd and obtain a letter from my CFI as evidence of current practice. The official requirement, by the way, was for either logbook evidence of R/T, or confirmation from your employer.

Nowadays I also have an NPPL, so I shouldn't face the problem again. But I am rather sceptical when the CAA suggests (eg mode-S proposals) that as yet undeclared licencing costs will be modest. Renewal of my FRTOL can't have taken more than a couple of minutes; nice work if you can get it!

Windrusher

[tuscan]

I just checked my RT licence and it is valid for ten years.

Thats just for a JAR PPL A which I obtained seven years ago, I have no idea if its different for other licence holders that have gone beyond this stage.

[Pelikanpete]

I've had to do exactly the same thing renewing my life PPL and FRTOL after 15 years absence from flying. Somewhere deep in Lasors it does actually state the requirement which is something along the lines of:

If your pilot's licence is lapsed (ie not current) for more than 10 years you have to retake the FRTOL but do not have to pay the associated fees.

It's a bit of a hassle but things do change in 15 years and you cannot be expected to remember everything anyway, so best that people have to prove their competence.

[Jumbo Driver]

Pelikanpete, you are indeed right. I have found in LASORS Section B (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%20B%20-%20FLIGHT%20RADIOTELEPHONY%20OPERATOR'S%20LICENCE%20(FRTOL). pdf), para B1.6, the following:

The holder of a FRTOL expired for more than 1 year but less than 10 years, will be required to pass the theoretical written examination. To renew a FRTOL that has expired or not been used for 10 years or more, applicants will be required to pass the practical Communications test and theoretical written examination.

The holder of a UK national flight crew licence with lifetime validity, who has not exercised the privileges of the FRTOL for a period exceeding 10 years, will be required to pass the practical Communications test and theoretical written examination in order to reactivate the FRTOL.
It would seem from this that the answer I was given earlier by SRG/PLD was only relevant if the licence had lapsed for less than one year - so my apologies if I misled anybody. :O

However, LASORS is not in itself definitive legislation and I have to say that I am not clear where the parent legislation exists for these requirements.


JD
:)

[IRRenewal]

Nick14 wrote:

Its the same with most things, My IR becomes invalid as soon as my ME rating expires, If I fly an ME renewal then it becomes valid again.


NONSENSE.

(I don't use caps lock lightly)

[Whopity]

Over the years the CAA has issued FRTOLs with different validity periods, different wording etc. The ANO defines the validity period of a FRTOL which has never exceeded 10 years, therefore any licences issued for a lifetime were in breach of the ANO. The ANO was amended to reflect the lifetime PPL but they forgot that the FRTOL was a different licence, some were issued for the life of the licence to which it was attached.

If your licence says that it is valid for life, it might be acceptable in a Court however, they might try to clarify what lifetime means!

The CAA has a duty to ensure that people who are issued licences are competent to hold them; if you have not used an aircraft radio for over 10 years then I suspect that you are not up to speed and the purpose of a retest is to ensure that returning holders are brought up to date with changes; Look how many changes to CAP 413 have occirred during that time.

If you have been using you lifetime licence recently, then according to Article 35 you should have the logbook evidence necessary for maintaining that licence. The certificate from an employer is to cover people such as flight test observers and ground engineers who are required to operate the aircraft radio station as part of their employment and who may not fly hence no logbook.

If your RT is up to speed the test with an examiner will take 15-20 minutes; if you are not then having a retest is well justified.