PDA

View Full Version : anyone starting an intergrated course in the next few weeks.


roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 20:43
Im starting my Integrated course this month, just wondering if anyone out there was starting training soon and how they feel about the apparent doom and gloom.

preduk
23rd Oct 2008, 20:50
This question has been debated a number of times, please see:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/347535-banks-other-than-hsbc.html

roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 20:59
thanks preduk i have seen that thread, I am intrested in people who have specifically commited a substantial deposit to secure a place on a course and are starting shortly at somewhere like Oxford, CABAIR, FTE and CTC, not just talking about hopefully achieiving a frozen ATPL in 3 years time!

Aerospace101
23rd Oct 2008, 22:16
Anyone starting flight training wether its goodtimes or badtimes needs to ask themselves can they afford the 'aftercare' of flight training.

IT IS NOT THE CASE OF 60K SPENT THEN WALK INTO A JOB

you need to look at whether you can afford any of the following (which could cost in excess of 30K)

- staying current
- hours building
- staying employable
- further training - FI rating?
- self sponsored type rating
- sim assessment prep/practice
- lost earnings while training or waiting in a hold pool
- ability to get a job to cover loan repayments

If you can afford all of that, then u should have no worries.

heli_port
23rd Oct 2008, 22:18
you have paid your deposit now so my suggestion would be not to think to seriously about jobs until you approach the end of your course otherwise you could mess your exams right up! I've just finished phase 1 at OAA, througly enjoyed it and looking forward to phase 2 and then flying :p

most of the members of my course have been worried but they have loans to cover the cost of the course where as i don't so i'm not to fussed as i could always go back to my previous job for a short while..

enjoy the course! good luck and if you're coming to OAA look me up as i'll be expecting you to get the beers in ;)

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0014.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=party/party0014.gif)

roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 22:37
I am 29 now and fortunatley have my own business to return to if things dont improve over the next 18 months. I have 3 friends who all fly for major airlines. 1 at BA and they are taking students from OAA and CABAIR. 1 at FLYBE he has been taken of the embrea 145 and is doing his type rating on the dash8, they are currently training 20 new pilots a month and losing 25 to other airlines so they are playing catch up. The other at Ryanair and if you want to pay for a type rating there is a good chance you will get a job with them. Of course you have to have something about yourself for any of the above to count. I am going on the course and will enjoy every minute of it.

heli_port
23rd Oct 2008, 23:10
I am going on the course and will enjoy every minute of it.That's the attitude for success m8 ;) We are actually the same age roomey :p i am the oldest in my class and feel so old but the 'youngens' do ask me for advice (ask me for advice dam i must be getting old)

Can i ask which FTO you're going to attend?

:cool:

roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 23:17
Cabair, I have a friend MR Cooper on the second phase of GS at Oxford. How are you finding your exams?

heli_port
23rd Oct 2008, 23:24
My exams were brilliant! Although i haven't got the results yet all the questions in the exams were straight from the Bristol database and so i had seen them before. I did learn my work just in case :p

roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 23:27
Everyone tells me how good bristol GS is, definatley worth the 50 quid. when are you off to Pheonix for the good stuff!

Aerospace101
23rd Oct 2008, 23:29
roomey, u do realise that, ba, ryan and flybe have all stopped recruitment since a few months back...

good luck with the cabair course

EmeraldEire
23rd Oct 2008, 23:32
"The other at Ryanair and if you want to pay for a type rating there is a good chance you will get a job with them."

Oh, so money is Ryanairs main requirement then.

Aerospace101
23rd Oct 2008, 23:44
money and ability to 'pass' a sim assessment - which u pay for? :-S

roomey
23rd Oct 2008, 23:51
101, has life not tought you anything, its not what you know but who you know. You have your sources, i have mine, i just hope yours are current and working for the airlines. How far are you 101 to acheiving your dream, or are you one of these people who failed your 1st assesment and gave up at the first hurdle, or are you actually training?

Aerospace101
23rd Oct 2008, 23:58
roomey, PM me and i'll send you copies of statements outlining recruitment from said airlines.

oh, but wait, how can i have that info when im some failure whose not in the industry according to u. grow up.

roomey
24th Oct 2008, 00:07
rattled someones cage? Im sure you know your stuff but you still havent ans my question? thats right my last post was a question!

Aerospace101
24th Oct 2008, 00:12
Done training. Flying Q400. Anymore Q's?

SW1
24th Oct 2008, 00:14
Checking the persons public profile helps a lot in determining who ones talking with- think "tanstopper" learned that the hard way:ok:

32SQDN
24th Oct 2008, 05:53
Checking the persons public profile helps a lot in determining who ones talking with- think "tanstopper" learned that the hard wayhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Whoooooooooooossssshhhhhhh!!

Whirlygig
24th Oct 2008, 06:25
Roomey, this forum is frequented not just by twenty-something wanabees but also by highly experienced and qualified professionals who give their advice for free; advice that could cost you if you went to a recruitment consultant. You'd do well to heed it and you'd do well to cut the attitude - you'll learn that during your CRM/MCC training.

its not what you know but who you know. You have your sources, i have mine, i just hope yours are current and working for the airlines.
If you think that knowing a few friends who are pilots will help you get a job, you've another think coming. Sorry.

Cheers

Whirls

Rhodes13
24th Oct 2008, 07:19
Roomey its laughable that you think that knowing someone in said airlines will get you anywhere. The days of pilots being able to put your CV on the chief pilots desk are long gone. HR are a law onto themselves and seem to revel in their tests to find "the right person" Additionally in these days of PC any airline that doesn't follow a strict procedure opens themselves to all sorts of accusations of favoritism and thus potential lawsuits.

I can confirm though that the big yellow and blue boeing is not taking cadets at the moment but may possibly start rehiring in the new year. Thats a big if and I would assume that depends on how bad the market gets. As for BA well just look at the thread about the BA holding pool, speaks volumes that they are canceling sim tests in November/December and have admitted they are over crewed on some fleets.

By all means stay positive but please face reality that we are entering a severe downturn in the market with the UK's economy actually shrinking for the first time in 16 years. When you hit the market in 10 months from now you'll be yet another number added to the queue with nothing else to distinguish yourself from the rest of the zero to hero wannabes.

You may yet have to dust off the plans for the backup plan!

Jonty
24th Oct 2008, 08:04
Roomey,

Enjoy your course, don't worry about getting a job until you get to the IR stage. The days of mates helping mates have not long gone and a personal recommendation is worth a thousand aptitude tests.

My advice is: These are difficult times, and you are going to have to work really hard to stand out from the crowd. Treat every exam as if it were a job interview, work hard and make sure you don't have to retake anything. You have to give yourself the best chance possible.

And when it comes to finding a job allot of it is luck, but airlines want a broad demographic of pilots and experience.

Good luck!
And that goes for anyone starting out.

Crazy Fokker
24th Oct 2008, 08:04
It's definitley healthy to hear some real world wisdom from those who've already trained and are now working in the industry. Something which I feel very lucky to be able to read indeed.

Those contributing it (on all threads), thank you very much, there are many of us out here whom are most grateful. It's important to keep perspective with the real world as much as possible regardless of how much we're gagging to get to that RHS.

ford cortina
24th Oct 2008, 10:27
Part of the problem with wannabes is that some will not listen to their peers, those of us who are working at the pointy end. I find it incredulous to see some posters come on here and shout the odds that they are the greatest this and that, only to find they have not started training yet.:ugh:

The very people you want to talk to and make contact with are those of us who have jobs in the industry, so don't alienate us, as you may find you need our help, just as we might need your help to get a CV in front of a Chief Pilot one day. :eek:
This is a very small industry remember that, there is no need to be so arrogant when people try to help.

Roomey, if you have contacts who can open doors great, I serious doubt it, I did my PPL with one of the top brass at the golden harp airline, I even have a 737NG Rating with hours on type, guess what, he cannot help me get a job at the moment with them. Thankfully I have a better job and am happier where I am even if it means I have to travel abroad for it.

The right attitude will get you far and the wrong one....well I don't need to say.

Good luck with your training and maybe you should think of winding your neck in a bit before you start shouting the odds again:cool:
Just some friendly advice.
FC

Wee Weasley Welshman
24th Oct 2008, 10:27
What is the cost penalty of not starting the course?

They need to weighed against the cost of keeping yourself eligible for employment for several years post basic training. I strongly suspect Mr Spock would write off the deposit.


WWW

shaun ryder
24th Oct 2008, 11:45
Get the deposit back if you can, write it off if you cant, sound advice I think.

roomey
24th Oct 2008, 11:54
are bless! I just love it when people jump on the band wagon. Its funny I dont remember saying anything about my friends getting me a Job! theres not someone on here jumping to conclusions is there? I dont beleive it! any way moving on. Being able to get in front of the right people (once again not my pilot friends) who can point you in the right direction has surely got to have its advantages. I appreciate what people say about HR being a law to themselves, Having worked for a fortune 500 company for many years I know this to be true. The following from my life experience is also very true. A small percentage of the time, it is very naive to think that someone got a job ahead of you because he was better candidate than you. Life has tought me that people knowing people how ever unfair is, is an advantage. This statement I beleive to be true for every Industry. Contrary to what some people think I really do appreciate people giving constructive advice.

Wee Weasley Welshman
24th Oct 2008, 12:00
OK. Don't go on the course.

Instead do a PPL. Keep in employment. Build towards 100hrs. Add an IMC. Take your time, enjoy your flying, join a club. Maybe join a syndicate. Start the distance learning ATPL groundschool. Study after work and at weekends.

Then maybe as soon as 2 years from now look again at commercial aviation.

I think you'll be very glad if you do that.


WWW

roomey
24th Oct 2008, 12:12
WWW I am fortunate to own a succesful company that has enable me to fund chasing my dream of becoming an airline pilot. I have the money to do it intergrated and get it done ASAP, I already have my PPL (lapsed). The reason my PPL has lapsed is because I have saved up 80% of the funds to go intergrated and get to where i want to get to and hopefully enjoy a long and succesful career in aviation. Also I have the age problem, so waiting a couple more years in my opinion will make me less attractive to the airlines.

Sometimes in life you just have to think go for it!

Wee Weasley Welshman
24th Oct 2008, 12:20
Well, there you go, everyones circumstances are different.

You have a lot of factors which point to doing an Integrated course without delay. In normal conditions I'd say go for it. I can't though. Nobody wants someone who did their basic training over two years ago and since then has just kept their license alive.

I don't think you'll get a job in 2009/2010. Not just you but at least 90% of new CPL holders.

I'd shrug my shoulders and accept that the market is effectively closed and you'll just have to come back when its open again.


WWW

32SQDN
24th Oct 2008, 13:08
But is it not true, that in 14 months when he has completed his CPL, if there are any job opportunities about and there may well be if airlines have not recruited over this period, that the pilots they would recruit would be the ones that have just completed their training.
An airline pilot once told me that the best qualified pilots are the ones that have just graduated.

G SXTY
24th Oct 2008, 13:49
That sounds very much like whistling in the dark.

I can understand why people already committed to an integrated course get all defensive when it's pointed out to them that their chances of finding a job in the next couple of years are very slim. No-one likes admitting they've backed the wrong horse.

But please - pretty please - listen to those of us already in the industry, who have already seen how bad the job market gets when times are bad. This downturn is only just getting going. Carriers have been going bust left right and centre over the summer - and that's when they make their money. What do you think is going to happen over the winter months?

Jobs for low-hours pilots are going to be very - very - thin on the ground for at least the next 2 years, and probably longer.

P.S. roomey - if you think you have 'the age problem' at 29, I'd strongly recommend some more research.

no sponsor
24th Oct 2008, 14:43
Well, Roomy, you are a braver man than me, but with no debt, you will be in a better position than many others.

Just remember that your flying skills go off the boil rapidly, so have plan B ready for when you graduate and there are no jobs around, or that BA SSP opportunity isn't forthcoming.

If I learnt anything from my experiences, do it sooner rather than later.

It's surprising, there are a few who 'work down the back' at my outfit, who are starting integrated courses this winter. On their massive 12k salaries, it does make you wonder what they have been smoking.

Good luck to you!

Reluctant737
24th Oct 2008, 14:53
Oh dear - some people really do tunnel vision themselves into their own views don't they. I'm with FR, and I can tell you that 'knowing' somebody got a pal of mine and a few others into the company within the last week. You'll be seeing a Ryanair 737 in the circuit at (probably) East Midlands in about 6 months' time, and I'll tell you now, none of the guys on that aircraft have applied through the website.

This does not apply to somebody in your position, but Monarch are particularly biased towards the old 'CV on the desk' technique, and I know a few chaps with Jet2 who got in through the back door as well so to speak. It is absolutely not an extinct method of entry and happens perhaps more frequently than you think.

A lot goes on behind closed doors,

Best of luck with your training, I took the APP course - it prepares you thoroughly for your intended career and if you have something about you I'm sure you'll be fine. DO KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN - the airlines are not the be all and end all. And if you come out at a loose end, get in touch as I have loads of contacts outside the airline industry who are always glad to hear from enthusiastic guys, even in this gloomy time!

Take care, A

BitMoreRightRudder
24th Oct 2008, 14:53
But is it not true, that in 14 months when he has completed his CPL, if there are any job opportunities about and there may well be if airlines have not recruited over this period, that the pilots they would recruit would be the ones that have just completed their training.


In a word, no.

Any job opportunities in 14 months time will be massively oversubscribed. The cold hard facts are that several European airlines will fold/merge/massively downsize over the next year. All the indicators point to pilot job losses on a scale that many of us, myself included, have not yet witnessed in our careers.

So 14 months from now the airlines who may have a few vacancies to fill will have their pick from a large pool of experienced, current, jet/TP rated pilots. The point everyone in the industry is trying to make to those wishing to join it is you have no chance of even competing for an airline job if such a large pool of experience exists.

Aerospace101
24th Oct 2008, 14:57
it does make you wonder what they have been smoking.

...the glossy course brochures

32SQDN
24th Oct 2008, 15:04
"So 14 months from now the airlines who may have a few vacancies to fill will have their pick from a large pool of experienced, current, jet/TP rated pilots. The point everyone in the industry is trying to make to those wishing to join it is you have no chance of even competing for an airline job if such a large pool of experience exists".

Do you know that for a fact though? I am not in the airline industry, not planning to train, so have no axe to grind, but I have heard first hand from a chief pilot that his employer would rather take newly qualified pilots than from 'pool of experienced pilots'. Don't know why that would be, apart from maybe the salary they pay, but that is what he told me.

Aerospace101
24th Oct 2008, 15:08
Maybe ryanair like taking the low experience grads, because apparently (from reading elsewhere on this site) they make a tidy profit on each new entrant :=

no sponsor
24th Oct 2008, 15:17
The industry has changed significantly. Yes I believe that airlines do indeed look at newly qualified individuals more so than experienced - certainly for short haul operations.

Most experienced guys want a salary from day 1 of starting with an employer and don't really want to pay for a TR, and will point-blank refuse to be bonded for an aircraft type they already fly.

Cadets, on the other hand, will happily work for nothing on their TR course, pay for the course, have a reduced salary for x-months, and be very happy in life - until of course they come to change jobs, and find a load of new guys competing for those jobs too.

Experienced guys start to look distinctly uncompetitive.

heli_port
24th Oct 2008, 15:20
roomey go for it m8 :p, i just got my atpl results with an average of 99% for OAA phase1 and i feel fantastic :cool:

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0023.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=party/party0023.gif) http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0033.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=party/party0033.gif) http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0019.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=party/party0019.gif) http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0018.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=party/party0018.gif)

Jonty
24th Oct 2008, 15:26
congrats!!!

Go and have a beer or 3!

roomey
24th Oct 2008, 16:28
yeah well done mate, I hope my results are as good!:D

Wee Weasley Welshman
24th Oct 2008, 17:28
Why didn't you get 100%?

































Only joking - well done. Your exams are a big deal at the time and it takes hard work to get that result. Hard work in any form deserves praise. Please keep posting your progress. Its very interesting to those following or thinking about following your footsteps and that's a very important part of the value of this forum.

WWW :ok:


http://img2.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0040.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-unhappy-smileys.php)