Hats on - advice needed

[Postman Plod]

A colleague has been summonsed to a "hats on" meeting, however she has not been advised in any way what the meeting is in relation to, or what they have allegedly done. Surely this is bang out of order, and possibly even illegal, and my colleague should have access to all the information relating to the "hats on" meeting?? Otherwise its effectively an ambush - how on earth could the person be expected to defend themselves, or properly explain their actions (whatever they are!)?

[cazatou]

Well, it could be that "She" is going to be informed of a Posting with an "Acting" promotion. The tone of your post, however, seems to suggest that there is something that you are aware of that leads you to believe that this is going to be " a one sided interview".

[pohm1]

I have had the good fortune to be on the wrong side of the desk for two "hats on" interviews.
On both occaisions I was given no details as to the topic which was going to be up for discussion.
On both occaisions I had absolutely no doubt as to the topic which was going to be up for discussion.
If she hasn't done anything, there's nothing to worry about. If she's done so much that she's not sure what it could be, she can pray it's the "least of all the evils"

P1

[Pontius Navigator]

Very tricky.

If we assume that it is going to be bad she might ask for advice from the unit EDA, usually OC PSF.

The best course of action, if she cannot answer immediately - I didn't or it wasn't me - is to ask for time to consider her response. Admit nothing and say 'I did nothing wrong'.

That last statement was sufficient for a Courts Martial to find someone not guilty as it was the perfect defence to 'knowingly . . . '

[gilderoy lockhart]

How can it be illegal for a subordinate to be asked to come to a meeting with or without a hat. Start worrying when it's the RAF Police who want to interview you with a caution!

[Postman Plod]

GL - at least you'd know where you stood with the RAF Police, and you are given legal rights. In civilian employment there are laws on how such things are dealt with - being ambushed is certainly frowned upon.

I think there is a chance she has done something wrong, but she honestly doesn't know exactly what, and exactly what was wrong about it. Knowing up front would at least give her a chance to either put her hands up and say "I did it" and take the bollocking, or give her an opportunity to properly defend herself.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gilderoy, indeed, but it is the timing that is the issue.

If I see someone I want to interview NOW then I call them in and ask about whatever it is I wish to find out. If, OTOH, it is a pre-planned interview - my office, hats on, 1400, then I would expect them to have a pretty good idea what it is about.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Hat on, finger off the transmit button, give them a damned good listening-to, salute smartly, exit stage right.

If they are not being told what it is, then senior type expects to transmit only - it makes them feel better some times.

[Doctor Cruces]

Only ever had one of those. Didn't have a clue why I'd been summoned. So, I went along (for fear of bring considered rude) wore hat , saluted, got b*llocking, saluted, about turned and left.

The thing is, even after the tirade from SLOPS, I STILL didn't know what it was all about. I think I was just duty victim that week. Strange boy.

Doc C :ugh:

[BEagle]

If asked if you have anything to say, state loudly and clearly:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

"I deny everything and Capt Blackadder did not shoot any speckled plump-breasted-pigeons!"

If the self-important dick behind the desk drones on for more than about 10 seconds, sick one finger in each ear and say loudly and clearly:

"La la la....NOT LISTENING!!"

If there's a hats-off session afterwards, just tell him that his carpet is neither deep nor fluffy - and ask how on earth he can work in such a scruffy office!

A carpet of my acquaintance :uhoh: at High Wycombe was pale blue and grubby - and the whole corridor smelled of wee!

Time these pathetic ambush style "March in the guilty ba$tard" sessions were condemned to history!

[parabellum]

Are you allowed to have with you a 'friend' who is not involved but can witness and possibly advise?

[Postman Plod]

Ultimately, if this was a potential disciplinary issue, they'd know about it wouldn't they? I mean If a hats on is just a bollocking, then thats one thing and can be accepted, but if its a precursor to a discip then surely they'd need to know what its all about beforehand?

[newt]

Best to keep quiet as you may drop yourself in more pooh! Just imagine the other person is sat behind the desk on a toilet with their underwear round their ankles!! It always worked for me!!

PS Luckily I was never called before JRW so I cant imagine how one would cope if he was giving the "Bo...king". He always said that the victims came out with a severe dose of " Stationcommanderitis!!"

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Plod,

Your post strikes me as strange. A bit of a 'I've got this mate.....' type story. If you and your female friend are anything other than professionally linked (if you know what I mean), then I would advise fessing to partners before any doodoo hits any rotating cooling devices.

But probably not the case, as this never happens in the modern services.

Regards,

Advo

[Postman Plod]

Heh, nope, nothing to worry about on that score - purely professional / friendship, nothing more! :}

[Tiger_mate]

I have been ambushed in this way, and the idiot had a letter from my solicitor in his in-tray 2 hours later threatening civil litigation if he continued with his stated intentions. I won the first battle and he destroyed my career with sufficient tactics that the redress that I would have enjoyed could never happen. Morale high ground, but going nuclear early is not always wise.

My advice with the benefit of hindsight, and having seen somebody do this, is to be equipped with a dictaphone and record everything that is said.

If nothing else, it gives your mates a laugh if it is a crap b011icking over a petty matter. PB v PR (230) refers

[Rossian]

Postaman plod - Do let us know how it went, won't you?
The Ancient Mariner

[JessTheDog]

No reason why more senior officer (boss or CO) can't ask for a formal interview at any time - goes with the rank and the service, could be good news, could be bad news. It would be appropriate to ask the boss or CO (or, informally, one of their staff, OC Admin, SWO, ADC, PSO, usual suspects - shows initiative!) for a heads-up if the interviewee is really in the dark, and it would be courteous to receive an answer, although the intent may be to make the interviewer squirm as a punishment. If they have screwed up, best to admit it and take the b0llocking - clearly not an interview under caution, charge, court martial or administrative action under QR whatever it is. If it starts to look like it is, they should get help very quickly, possibly including legal advice!

There may be an element of wind up if the interviewee is a very junior officer, learning a lesson and all that. If so, take it on the chin, it will in all likelihood blow over after a week (until ACR time)! May also be a test of character - wait until the interview or fess up beforehand.

Always best to admit mistakes before found out, no matter how bad, and ideally with a solution to offer up. Any boss or CO will respect this greatly. Unless they are a git! Most of us have been there, those who haven't have not been found out.

[Gnd]

I think, that knowing the pride and smartness of some people in certain forces, - it would be more likely that they want to see if you actually have a hat, or your friend??
I do not really think that it is ‘illegal’ in the normal military for a boss to summon a junior fearing hell and damnation from the legal system; need to leave and join the Peace Corps if that an initial reaction. Just do it and let us know what it was for?

[biddedout]

Did they say what sort of hat? Note the Google Hat adverts above.

[Wader2]

I knew I had done wrong. I had slopped off the sqn early only to get a phone call in the mess 5 minutes later recalling me to see the Boss. I had only been on the sqn a few eeks and my first tour so I didn't know the boss.

I duly knocked timidly on his door. "Come in", he said. "What are you doing tomorrow?"

Phew, so it's in the future, well maybe.

"We fly out tomorrow, OK for a 6 month det?"

Single, unattached, you bet.

[EESDL]

My first 'hat on' bollocking was completely out of the blue and I didn't have a scoobie what it was all about!
(turned out that Sqn ar5e licker TTB had been inventing things to make everyone else look bad etc blah blah)
Backfired on him but experience not very pleasant.

Second and subsequent 'hat on' bollockings were all a case of mistaken identity.....

Turned out he was bollocking someone who he thought should have given a sh1t!

Took my own carpet in the end...........

As already said - just take it - if you, sorry 'she' can justify actions within military law and all that trust placed with you etc etc then what is there to worry about?

If can't justify actions then she deserves everything the boss throws at her........

[Postman Plod]

Its not me, honest guv! :} I'd just come out with it...!

However, thanks for the advice all - its above all more reassuring than not.

[Wader2]

Had three mass bollockings that I can remember. The last was the best.

Everyone assembled in mess dining room at ISL - Jag mates, Buccs, Shack aircrew, the lot. Chairs, not hats, no coffee and another Scottish Gp Captain.

Seemed one of the Bucc navs, having flown through an oil rig HPZ compounded the felony by saying "What HPZ".

Said staish could see his stars flying out of the window and delivered his mass bollocking to all aircrew. Threatened us with forever never becoming a 4-ship lead.

Yeah, right on, we Shack crews just kept quiet, smirked, and enjoyed the show.

[Maxibon]

I was fortunate to have a great deal of experience of these - 3 at Gp Capt Level and 1 at AOC 11Gp.

AOC 11 Gp was marvellous - in his truly professional way he had memorised the entire transcript and stared me directly in the eye all the way through. I don't mind admitting that he scared the poo out of me. After marching out I stood outside his office and his MA gave me a cigarette, at which point the AOC walked out of said office and I thought I'd get it again for smoking in his domain. Alas, he merely grinned and said 'Well that's that over and done with - don't do it again or at least don't get caught next time!' - Marvellous!:}

[BluntM8]

It might be the case that the senior in question is doing you - sorry, your friend - a huge favor by keeping it to an in house "hats on", rather than allowing whatever the issue is to go any further. The best boss I ever had used to do anything within his powers to stop anything discussed at a one-sided interview leaving his desk. That earned him a serious amount of respect. He could bollock with the best of them, but you always went to him knowing that he'd do what he could to make sure it didn't escalate.

My advice would be to take the bolly, chalk it up to experience and then be hope it ends there. As has been said before, better to give your boss a damned good listening-to than to give a scuffer a statement under caution.

Blunty

[MarkD]

not too soon or too obviously though - don't want the second HOI to be because of this PPRuNe thread, do you...

[Al R]

You've got to keep this in perspective - ultimately, the system is limited to what it can do these days. Look on the bright side, whoever is going to be administering the bollocking can't make you pregnant. *

(* edit: Whoops! Sorry, I forgot we were talking about a female friend that you are just very concerned about).

[cazatou]

It is posts like that from AIDU that makes one realise just how prescient Danny was to insist on an "IGNORE" facility.

[Wader2]

Mark, that has crossed my mind :)

There was a case about 4 years back, a chopped Nav came up on pprune incandescent with the injustice of being chopped - no more dteail is necessary - except that he gave so much background detail, lik ehis former branch, where he was when he was chopped, why it was unjust etc.

I went to 55 sqn the following day and guys on the other training flight had pprune up on the notice board and were creasing themselves. it did the choppee no good at all and probably a well deserved HOI too.

In this case hugely amusing for the spectators.

West of 8 West and the 25-yr rule are there for a purpose.:}

[Chris Griffin]

Due to the nature and possible recriminations of this kind of action, they are not entered into lightly. If there has been any actual or perceived wrong-doing, after the event the subject will have a fora to put their point across.

It is a damning insight that rather than self examine potential reasons for an interview someone with an interest (vested or not) has chosen a very public forum to bleat about whether it is illegal.

This is the military and line managers have an input when people screw up or need gentle rehabilitation. And no its not illegal. Take it, acknowledge any criticism and don't use public forums to wash dirty linen.

FFS what next - taking a human rights lawyer into OJAR debrief?

[Postman Plod]

Ahh AIDU you really are a gas... methane I think its called, but hey ho!

Anyway, to be reasonable about it, I really should point out (repeatedly I know - I doth protest too much) that it really really isn't me! :} At no point have I said its unfair (cos I don't know - it might be completely fair!), I'm not whining about it (its not my problem, in the end it doesn't affect me and I don't really care that much), and whilst I never take PPRuNe as gospel for anything (this isn't the real world after all), and whist trolls like AIDU have seriously compromised the quality, value, and atmosphere of this place, there is still a lot of good people and good advice around. So thanks! and where is that ignore button...

Chris Griffin, I'm asking questions because I don't know the answers myself - I'm not bleating, I've not got any axe to grind, I've not mentioned names, stations, locations, bra sizes or any other details that could be construed as trying to influence anything or anyone. I thank you for your comment though. At the end of the day, nothing can or will change what will happen - I'm just trying to give a little friendly advice, and better my own understanding.

[sisemen]

Postie be very, very careful about being too closely identified with your "friend" particularly as it would appear that said friend is of the female persuasion.

They can lead you down all sorts of unwitting pathways that can bounce back on you.

Well I remember the blonde with a flirtatious manner who was constantly in my office asking for advice on how I would do this or that or the other; how would I write this letter, phrase that brief etc etc etc. It seemed that nearly half of my work was spent in sorting her professional problems out.

Come 1369 time (yep that dates me) the blonde came out of the interview with OCA (whom she'd also exercised her feminine wiles with) with 8s and 9s and a spec rec. I was told that I was high average with a rec but if I only had the professional aptitude like Flt Lt X then I would have done a lot lot better!!

I learnt about scheming (and ambitious) women from that. :=

[Gnd]

People do get found out on PPrune, and if trying to subvert – lose their right to leniency – so I hear???
If the lady is a cadet surely a Sqn Comd would know how it works. If she is now regular, the rules are slightly more grown up? ;)

PS I think the pregnancy comment holds if the Boss is female - so long now I can't be sure??

[Pontius Navigator]

Ahh AIDU you really are a gas... methane I think its called, but hey ho!

Wouldn't know about that but at least all thee comments confirm the IGNORE decision :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

at least you'd know where you stood with the RAF Police, and you are given legal rights.Wish you'd told the WO and Sgt. scuffers at Gutersloh in mid-1979 that. Then this very green SAC wouldn't have been dragged from his bed and have to sit for three hours being grilled by them about "wot you did larst noite" but when asked what they _thought_ I _might_ have done all I got was "you know, tell us"... :rolleyes:

Scared me silly because it seemed like some major event had occurred, (Maggie assasinated or something...). Eventually, (because the convoy was leaving back to the UK in an hour), they threw me out and told me they'd be sending SIB to camp in the UK.

Two weeks later I find out from my boss that I had been accused of nicking a tenner from the wallet of a lad in the same tent as me when I got in the night before. Turns out that the lad accused me to deflect suspicion from him being a thief because he had nicked another lad's jeans because he forgot to bring any with him. Wnaker...

... and if I saw those two now - I have some choice words for the pr1cks...

[Roadster280]

FWIW, I've been ambushed twice, both were highly bewildering, but in different ways:

1. I get sent to see Sergeant Major. He's incandescent. Calls in another WO, they start playing "Nice WO" and "Bad WO" on me. It turns out somebody with my name had been fined by a court in the West Country somewhere. I'm in Catterick. Amazingly enough, he gives the address of the Garrison Commander! So bailliffs turn up to said Brig's house, and try and seize goods to the value of. Brig calls RMP, who look in their files and presto, LCpl Roadster is on strength at 8 Sig Regt in Vimy Bks. The only thing that saved me from being thrown under the bus was Nice WO calls the court, and finds out I should be 45 next birthday, when I was plainly in my 20s. Not at all pleasant, but I can see why I didn't get a brief on the way in (other than troop staff pi$$ing themselves laughing).

2. I've broken my leg, and I'm on sick leave in my MQ in Germany. One fine day, doorbell rings, and it's my Tp Sgt with Sqn Comd in tow. "OMFG" thinks I, "what have I done?" . Five minutes later, shiny new Cpl Roadster is seeing them out the door. Again, I can see why no brief beforehand.

Good luck to your friend, it might a) be good or b) she may be innocent.

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster reminds me, as a very green fg off, 3 month det, 7000 mile flight in 3 days, arrive by air at new station and wheeled straight in to a BOI still in grow bag.

Interrogated by this wg cdr, never saw him before, never saw him since, told I could go and that was that. F******g scary. B*stards.

Three years later I gave a heads up to the sqn ldr that had given me no warning. That was even better. When the Feds arrived he had to pretend he knew nothing. :}

Better still, the tip off came from the Feds bossman, the PM.

[NutLoose]

Whenever I was getting a one way discussion I often found that starting to smile as he gets into the swing of it really seems to wind them up, I had one and the person handing it out was getting redder and redder the more I smiled, by the end of it you could have toasted bread with the heat radiating off his face at which point I was positively beaming from ear to ear...... I walked out thinking he will have a heart attack if he carries on like that........ he didn't dissapoint and a few months later did.


RAF Police are a joke, got arrested for being drunk on last night in Germany....... plods driving me back telling me now your in the poo, to which I replied, " maybe so, but I have saved the cost of a taxi back":ok:

Was at the time seeing a married German lass and was interviewed by some herbert in the morning from the SIB In a really badly fitting suit, It went something like this........

Got the old "tell us who she is"..... " nope"...... "we will find out who she is"......... "good luck, there are millions of them, I wish you well interviewing them all"....... "did you discuss work with her?"......... " why would I want to bore her to death?"........... " so you find work boring?"........... "no, but I find talking to women about work boring, we have better things to do :rolleyes:"............... "You know your career in the RAF is finished"........ "yawn"

Posted back to UK, 3 weeks later asked to sign on lol, course and promotion follows at same time.......... Muppets

[Grabbers]

Plod,

Tell us how it goes (and what it was about).:)

[N Joe]

I will never forget my first "hats on" interview for ordering engineering work that had delayed the sqn boss's departure on a weekend landaway to Tenerife. As mentioned in other posts, technically "JEngO, my office, now!" gave no warning of the topic for discussion, but there was no doubt in my mind.

N Joe

[NutLoose]

N JoeI will never forget my first "hats on" interview for ordering engineering work that had delayed the sqn boss's departure on a weekend landaway to Tenerife. As mentioned in other posts, technically "JEngO, my office, now!" gave no warning of the topic for discussion, but there was no doubt in my mind.

N Joe

Fraid they never get it in or out of the mob....... I snagged a jet off on a weekender from Deci to Gib for a hyd leak (fresh oil on the Eng doors), checked and cleared by relevant trades without taking doors off......was to see it off and was dripping when running.. positively spat his dummy out when i made him shut it down...... fact was he would have ended up swimming the last 50 odd miles when it was properly checked and found to have a serious leak seemed to have no bearing on the bloke....... grade A t*sser in my book. They seem to think you do it for the fun of it and not to keep them alive, something a lot of people forget when it suits....:=

[Saintsman]

I'd been involved in a little incident. Not my fault but I was the senior person there. Usual enquiry, following which I was summoned to my CO.

"The AOC has asked me to speak to you. I have spoken to you. Out"

With that I turned and left. A most sensible outcome.

[muttywhitedog]

Is this the "incident" referred to by the OP?

If not, how did it go OP?

If so, what "incident". ;)

[glad rag]

It might be the case that the senior in question is doing you - sorry, your friend - a huge favor by keeping it to an in house "hats on", rather than allowing whatever the issue is to go any further. The best boss I ever had used to do anything within his powers to stop anything discussed at a one-sided interview leaving his desk. That earned him a serious amount of respect. He could bollock with the best of them, but you always went to him knowing that he'd do what he could to make sure it didn't escalate.

As a tech I was fortunate to have "met" 1 Lt RN, 2 FS and 1 WO who had qualities as above.

All could make a stone bleed as required.

All earned my undying TRUST and LOYALTY through their Dealt With At My DESK "bollockings"(and some wee extra QRA stints etc)

And they were all deserved for getting caught, LOL.

those were the days.....

[EESDL]

................was it a bollocking about posting on pprune?
if not, then what happened?

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Odi circa 91-92

Skipping merrilly down the corridor towards the crewroom. Crewman Leader JD spots me as I pass his office.

JD: t_s_t_k!! COME HERE YOU ****!!!

ME: (thinks) oh sheise, this could be one of half a dozen things.

JD: WHAT THE FU...!!!

phone rings

JD: (on phone) Alright George...blah blah...sailing in the med...blah blah...lovely sunset...blah blah (feet up on desk) calm seas...blah blah...looking forward to it mate...

20 butt clenching minutes later

JD: blah blah...beautiful marina...blah blah...OK George talk to you later, bye.

JD: (To me) What the fug do you want?

ME: Er...just going to the crewroom for a brew boss, do you want one?

JD: Yeah go on then.



...and relax.

[I'm Off!]

Original poster needs to stop being such a lower deck lawyer, and his friend needs to man up and take the probably deserved hats on interview - this is the military, not the f*****g boyscouts.:ugh:

[Postman Plod]

Lower deck lawyer? Hmmm ok, maybe, but whilst the majority of posts have been constructive, at the end of the day, all I've asked for was constructive advice so that I could pass on. No names, no details, so where is the problem? Military discipline is fine, particularly when you know the first thing about what its in relation to - I'm more than aware this isn't the boyscouts - don't think I implied it was?

As for the hats on, well it apparently quickly became a hats off, with constructive advice given to my friend that she should consider redress.

I'm saying no more other than that! Those of you who instantly assumed (not knowing any of the details or facts) she was in the wrong, well I'm afraid she wasn't.

Thanks for all your help and advice - negative and constructive is as useful as positive and constructive! :}

[1.3VStall]

Reminds me of the story about the Lightning mate having a hat on, no coffee interview with the staish.

Halfway through the tirade said mate stops the flow with "Excuse me sir..."

"What is it?"

"Well, sir, I was wondering if you can be court martialled for what you're thinking"

"Don't be so bloody silly, of course not"

"In that case, sir, I think you're a c*nt!"

Said mate retired from the Service having risen to the dizzy rank of flt lt!

[Tiger_mate]

Never heard that one before.

No seriously!

It is usually the SWO with an Airman who had mud on his shoes whilst entering the Airmans Mess. I far prefer the Lightning Mate version, and I dare say that once upon a time it was a Sopwith Camel driver.

[Mmmmnice]

so what if it's an ambush - isn't that what we did in the military until it became contrary to Health & Safety, Duty of Care, political correctness, and sundry other 'edgy' modern ideas? I suspect the hat won't be needed for the whole interview; unless she has done something spectacularly wrong and if that is the case she should have some idea of what the whole thing is about in the first place?