CPL Exams.

[187nj]

Hi.

Could you give me some information on the JAA CPL exams?

I'm thinking PPL, Class 1, CPL exams, CPL, Instructor Rating but can't find any information relating to sitting CPL exams instead of ATPL theory.

Cheers.

[nick14]

I don't think many places do them anymore.

To be honest there is no point in just doing cpl groundschool. The course cost will be almost identical and you are then limited to just a CPL, dont think you can get an IR with out the atpl exams, I may be wrong.

I asked about this a while ago as I was thinking of becoming a career instructor.

Just do the atpl's your not losing anything by doing them and you are keeping your options open.

My 2 pence
Nick

[Shunter]

If you want to eventually work for an airline, do the ATPL exams. If you simply want to be an instructor, do the CPLs. Nick is right, there aren't many places who do the CPL course. CATS is one, and I believe Bournemouth also do it(?).

There are 14 ATPL exams, versus 9 CPL exams, so you've saved £400 in exam fees straight away. Things like global climatology, transatlantic and jet flight planning etc are a complete waste of time and effort if you simply want to instruct. It's been said that the CPL exams are about 60% of the work required for the ATPLs, and the IR exams around 40%. I've recently seen some guys blast the IR exams out in 3 months.

Also worth noting that there is only 1 place you can sit the CPL or IR exams; Gatwick. Plus they're done on alternate months; CPL one month, IR the next. Fail an exam and it's a 2 month wait for the resit (although that's probably the same with the ATPLs anyway since they take about 3 centuries to mark the feckin things and send your results out).

If you ever wanted to do an IR, that's another 7 exams with some of them being duplicated to a large extent (eg. Met, Air Law), whereas some are considerably different (eg. Nav, Flight Planning). The IR Human Performance exam credits for the CPL, but not the other way round; so potentially you could save yourself sitting it twice by just doing the IR version.

[INNflight]

Get your class 1 before even starting the PPL if you wanna go commercial. Waste of money if you find out you'll not qualify....

[187nj]

Thanks guys.

Are the CPL exams multi choice, same as the PPL exams?

Also, can I sit CPL's and then when I'm ready, if I'm ready, can I sit the remaining exams to qualify for the ATPL?

Cheers.

[Whirlygig]

Yes, yes and no.

You cannot "upgrade" CPL into ATPL exams because there are areas in each subject's syllabus which are not covered at CPL. However, you can do CPL exams, IR exams and get a CPL/IR. This will limit you to single pilot ops and, I believe some aircraft weight limit!

Cheers

Whirls

[187nj]

Thanks Whirls.

Are the 14 ATPL exams mulit choice?

Cheers.

[Whirlygig]

Yup!

The standard of the questions at ATPL and CPL is the same; it's just that the ATPL syllabus is larger. There are generally fewer questions in a paper at CPL level. That does not necessarily make it easier!!

Cheers

Whirls

[187nj]

Thank you again Whirls.

Cheers.

[JamesTigris]

Whirlygig, can you post the LASORS reference that defines your limitations following the CPL/IR groundschool route? As opposed to the ATPL groundschool.

I am planning on doing the full ATPLs as I have ambitions of flying commercially, but I must admit, reading LASORS, I could not see any difference in the end result if you did the two sets of exams separately (except for it being longer, more complicated and more expensive).

I thought you qualified for an ATPL once you possessed an ME CPL and IR, MCC and minimum experience required (irrespective of groundschool).

[Whirlygig]

Not being funny here hun, but I don't have the time to do your research :8

You can download LASORS for free from the CAA website but trust me when I say CPL/IR with CPL/IR theory credits does not equal CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits - it's the same for helicopters now (although it never used to be!).

Stick with ATPL theory if you want to fly the airlines.

Cheers

Whirls

[Tinstaafl]

The short answer is that whatever exam you do will limit the highest category of licence you may (eventually) hold. PPL exams will limit your highest level of licence to a PPL, CPL exams will limit your highest licence to a CPL, ATPL exam for the ATPL ('limit' probably isn't the best term for that last one :p ).

In some jurisdictions the aviation authority allows a pass in all the exams for a higher licence to substitute for some or all exams some lower licences and ratings. In other countries, the authority requires passes at each level for each licence. For example, Australia will credit PPL exams if you pass the CPL exams but will not credit PPL or CPL exams if you pass the ATPL ones. JAA will credit PPL, CPL and IR if you pass their ATPL exam. For that reason most students training for a professional licence in JAA countries opt to sit the ATPL exams and save themselves money and time whilst avoiding wasted effort.

Bear in mind that in no case do you complete your training at your flying school and walk out with an Airline Transport Pilot Licence. What you will have is a CPL + IR + ATPL theory passes and around 250 hours experience. In JAA regions this is commonly referred to as a 'Frozen ATPL' even though the only thing 'ATPL' about it is the passing of the theory exams. At some point in the future, after accruing at least 1500 hrs including various subtotals and passing some form of test flight, you can then apply for the issue of an ATPL. Until you meet those additional ATPL requirements you are a Commercial Pilot Licence holder and will remain so**.

One reason why someone might opt to sit the CPL exams (+ IR exams if an instrument rating is desired) instead of ATPLs is if he or she has no future intention of ever working in part of the aviation industry that would require an ATPL or ATPL theory passes. That pretty much limits one's career to instructing or air taxi in single pilot aircraft. Doing the ATPL exams, however, gives access to those career options without limiting future options.




**As I've written in other threads, I think the use of the term 'Frozen ATPL' by flying schools is a bit underhanded. I've lost track of the number of people who think that their training culminates in the guaranteed issue of an ATPL and not, as is really the case, a CPL with the future possibility to upgrade to an ATPL. That rather significant difference isn't exactly emphasised. :=

[Genghis the Engineer]

To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that not having an ATPL limits you to, at-least legally, is that you cannot fly (as captain, or at-all, I'm unsure here?) of a multi-crew public transport flight. [ANO Schedule 8 is where this is contained.]

Pretty much all of the other multfarious jobs flying aeroplanes are available to the holder of a CPL; clearly for a lot of those you do also require an IR and that would then make 9+7 = 16 exams instead of the 14 exams for ATPL; on the other hand do your ATPL exams now, don't get your IR in the allowed time, and you are down to CPL and will have to take those seven anyhow.

So, CPL is not necessarily all that limiting unless you are chasing a public transport flying career, but not having an IR may be much more so if you are likely to need that. If so, then doing ATPL exams now to avoid having to take the extra 7 later may be a good idea - even if only intending to become an instructor. The actual study content of CPL groundschool is probably only about 85% of the ATPL groundschool, and the exam difficulty is similar - the main difference is in the exam burden which is much greater for ATPL.

Incidentally, I believe that CATS and Coventry both do CPL groundschool packages.

G

[Shunter]

GtE is correct, although it's 15 exams (IR HPL credits for the CPL equivilent). Technically there's nothing whatsoever to stop you flying as a first officer having done the CPL & IR exams as opposed to the ATPLs. The only difference is that when you get to 1500hrs (and other requirements) you cannot take the skills test and have your ATPL issued because you don't have the correct theory credit. No ATPL = No Command, hence you would only ever be a F/O.

[sion22]

if you can only be a first officer
how do you cope if the captain becomes incapacitated (legally)
doesnt make sense to me

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thinking on Shunter's point - if a CPL/IR holder decided to change their mind and go for an airline job: it'll probably take less time (as somebody who has already passed the CPL exams in the same subjects) to bone up and pass the ATPLs than it will to gain the hours on type to be considered for a command by any airline.

(I'm assuming that anybody whose first intention is an airline job would go for ATPL from the start anyhow).


sion22 -I doubt very much at that point that anybody will worry about the legalities! In any case, legally it's no different to an fATPL holder with, say, 800 hours of which 200 hours are multi-crew: they only legally hold a CPL/IR, regardless of ATPL exam passes. I'm willing to bet that a measurable number of such pilots have taken command after their Captain has become incapacitated.

G

[Shunter]

The same way you do the rest of the time. Fly, land.

A CPL/IR is a CPL/IR and is not an ATPL. Reminder time: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FROZEN ATPL. If said CPL/IR took the ATPL exams he can in due course take his ATPL skills test and get his ATPL, allowing him to legally act as P1 on a public transport flight. Until that point he is exactly the same as another CPL/IR who took the CPL/IR exams in terms of privileges.

[Genghis the Engineer]

(To Shunter) SNAP :)

G

[Tinstaafl]

A practical point and not a regulatory requirement, but I'm not aware of many airlines that hire flight crew who have not passed the ATPL exams.
If you do manage to get a co-pilot job flying a multi crew aircraft you will never be able to upgrade to captain until you hold an ATPL - and most seem to want to hire people who can be their captains of the future.

The result is the same, however: No ATPL pass --> mostly restricted to instructing & air taxi + possibly co-pilot in corporate/business jet operations.

[granlistillo]

Very informative thread. Maybe you guys can help me out.

I understand limitations of just a CPL. Currently flying regional jets in the US, and I am looking at teaching at a specific FTO that is mostly PPL stuff, not looking at flying at any European airlines. I have the EU residency, but not the JAA tickets.

Is there any distance learning CPL course on the market? If not would a ground school sign off from an DL/ATPL ground school suffice to sit the CPL exams?

Must an FI (A) have an IR if he only teaches PPL level (or commercial level for that matter)?

Is my understanding correct that instructing with a JAA PPL and getting paid is not possible under current JAA rules? Are there any loopholes?

From what I can see from the forums, and my feeble attempts reading the LASORS .pdf (which confuses the heck out of me) this is my understanding:

Get the medical, take the 9 CPL theoretical exams, take the CPL single engine checkride. Then take a FI (A) course. Is this correct??

Thanks!

[Whirlygig]

I believe Atlantic Flight Training do the CPL(A) groundschool course.

Standards Document 30 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/PLD%20StandardsDocument30v30.pdf)

Standards Document 31 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Doc%2031%20v89.pdf)

In order to be paid under the JAA system, you must a minimum of a CPL. I doubt you would need an Instrument Rating.

Get the medical, take the 9 CPL theoretical exams, take the CPL single engine checkride. Then take a FI (A) course. Is this correct?? Yup!

Cheers

Whirls

[Genghis the Engineer]

Very informative thread. Maybe you guys can help me out.

I understand limitations of just a CPL. Currently flying regional jets in the US, and I am looking at teaching at a specific FTO that is mostly PPL stuff, not looking at flying at any European airlines. I have the EU residency, but not the JAA tickets.

Is there any distance learning CPL course on the market? If not would a ground school sign off from an DL/ATPL ground school suffice to sit the CPL exams?

Cranfield Aviation Training Services (CATS) at Cranfield
Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry

Both do distance learning groundschool with a short (approx. 3 weeks for all 9 exams) classroom requirement.

Must an FI (A) have an IR if he only teaches PPL level (or commercial level for that matter)?
No - they just obviously can't teach for IR.


Is my understanding correct that instructing with a JAA PPL and getting paid is not possible under current JAA rules? Are there any loopholes?

In the UK the only loophole I know of is that you can teach on microlights (not the same as US Ultralights, closer to the US LSA category) and be paid without holding a commercial licence.

From what I can see from the forums, and my feeble attempts reading the LASORS .pdf (which confuses the heck out of me) this is my understanding:

Get the medical, take the 9 CPL theoretical exams, take the CPL single engine checkride. Then take a FI (A) course. Is this correct??

I'd double-check with the CAA / local authority whether you are exempted from the requirements to take the approved CPL course. But, I think that you are, so yes.

G

[granlistillo]

Genghis/Whirlygig,
Thanks so much, that really clarifies things for me.

[Shunter]

There are changes in the pipeline for PPL instructors. They're based on the premise that you only need hold the license you are instructing for, meaning in the future a PPL/FI would be able to be paid for teaching PPLs. Obviously he couldn't then go on to teach CPLs (which pays better, apparently), without having a CPL.

[granlistillo]

I've read that rumor. Or is it more than a rumbling from EASA? Any official word on when?
Obviously in my case would make things a lot easier.

[YakAngel]

The runmour on PPL/FI is that it will only be to the new "Leisure License standard".
i.e. You can get a license after 20 hours tuition. Yes, REALLY!!!!!!! And that's the only type of PPL the PPL/FI will eb able to instruct.

However, I am told that if the candidate does not get their license in 20 hours, the PPL/FI has to hand over to a "proper" FI.....

Just for reference, you can also currently do the following route:

Class 2 medical, CPL Writtens then the FI course.
You can then instruct in fulness, but NOT get paid for it.

If you want to get paid as well, then you need a Class 1 medical, AND need to have completed and passed the CPL flying trainig in addition to the CPL writtens.

I'm now going down the CPL writtens -> FI route after having been doing Class Rating Instructor work (unpaid) for a year.... wonder if I'll get any time "off" the FI course for having already done the CRI (and over 200 hours instruction).... (I assume not!!!)

[munday17]

Hi you mentioned that there is a groundschool that does the CPL exams in bournemouth, would you mind telling me the name of the school.

Cheers
Gregg.

[Lightning Mate]

Is there any distance learning CPL course on the market?

Yes - try Ground Training Services at Bournemouth Airport. They have been doing it for years.

[BillieBob]

I've read that rumor. Or is it more than a rumbling from EASA? Any official word on when?It is not a rumour, it is fact. In the UK, assuming that the amended Aircrew Regulation is published in time, it will be law from 1 July 2012, other EU member states will have different implementation dates.
The runmour on PPL/FI is that it will only be to the new "Leisure License standard".That is incorrect.
However, I am told that if the candidate does not get their license in 20 hours, the PPL/FI has to hand over to a "proper" FI.....That is also incorrect, on two counts. The minimum requirement for issue of a LAPL(A) is 30 hours of dual instruction and for an LAPL(H) it is 40 hours.

FCL.205.A PPL(A) - Privileges

(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot of aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.

(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for:

(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(A) or PPL(A)
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences
(3) the ratings and certificates attached to these licences

wonder if I'll get any time "off" the FI course for having already done the CRIYou should be credited with the Teaching and Learning element of the course (25 hours) [see JAR-FCL 1.310(c) or FCL.915(c)(1) if the course is conducted under EASA.]

[sp6]

I did the 9 CPL exams with Atlantic, got a CPL & FIC and am now contemplating having to do all 14 ATPL's again. I originally only thought I'd be PPL instructing, but events proved that I could have done a lot more if I'd chosen the ATPL.

The CPL theoretical was a bad mistake because:

1. The question bank is the same - ie just as hard.
2. I effectively did 11 of the 14 ATPL's, not just 9
3. I had to go to Gatwick for the exams (someone else made this point too)

It ended up a very bad mistake because:

In 2007 I was offered a TP job but had to decline because I didn't have an IR. To get an IR, I would have had to sit the 6 IR exams and then the MEIR, by which time the job had gone. If I'd had the (still current) ATPL's, I could have taken the MEIR (ok - assuming I'd pass it) in 4-5 weeks and got the TP job.

Now I want to progress to CPL/MEIR instructing and possibly a TP job, but I've got to go all the way back to the beginning, despite having a CPL and 000's of hours P1.

The only way the CPL makes sense is if you are totally positive you will only ever teach PPL. and you never know what the future holds!

[NQWhy]

Just looking at the CAA CPL examinations website and it seems that the CPL now, under the "New Syllabus" has got some extra papers in it. Can anyone shed any light on this?? Is it the same material spread into more papers or an increase in the amount of material (thereby making the CPL even less appealing!!)?

[roger henshaw]

The CPL exams have increased to 13 but the amount of material is more or less the same as it was, it is more expensive now because of the 4 extra exam fees but also helpful in that each subject now has its own exam, previously for example Perf and Planning included Performance, Mass & Balance and Flight Planning. The workload overall is still quite a lot less than the ATPL. If you want to research the content in detail go to the CAA website and look for the Theoretical Knowledge and Learning Objectives link to the old JAA website, The 2009 LOs are the basis of the new syllabus.