Coroner attacks minefield rescue

[The Gorilla]

Another Coroner sticks it to the MOD!

BBC NEWS | UK | Coroner attacks minefield rescue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7675824.stm)

"Very difficult reading" for the MOD.

If they can find anybody who can read maybe.

From the report:

• A lack of availability in Afghanistan of appropriate UK helicopters fitted with a winch

• The downwash from the Chinook helicopter sent to the minefield

• The administrative delay in sending a suitable helicopter.

Mr Walker also criticised a lack of batteries for radios at observation posts, which hampered the ability to communicate, as well as a failure to provide meaningful information to soldiers about the threat of mines in the area.



Absolutely :mad: incredible.

:ugh:

[nigegilb]

Any of this to do with Bowman and batteries? I would like to add the following statement from Def Min A Ingram to HCDC dated 30 Mar 06 in reply to my own letter expressing concern about the lack of CSAR capability in Afghanistan.

COMBAT SEARCH AND RESCUE (CSAR)

Mr Gilb is concerned about our CSAR capability for forthcoming operations in Afghanistan and alleges that the Afghanistan task "has all the hallmarks of a rushed deployment". There are rescue plans, but for reasons of operational security, and to protect our troops, I cannot provide details of them; I do not want to compromise the safety of our troops should such a situation arise. In terms of planning for the next stage of tasking in Afghanistan, you will have gathered from the evidence I provided on 7 March this year that our deployment of more troops to Afghanistan is long-planned and part of a coherent international plan. This is not a rushed mission as Mr Gilb alleges.

So then Adam, totally inadequate training for dealing with minefields in PDT and helos with no winch constitutes a sound and effective plan does it?

In a statement from Cpl Wright's family, their solicitor said the coroner had made it clear there had been "really serious systemic failures" in providing the correct training, intelligence and resources for troops to do their jobs.

I wonder if the members of HCDC will also be hanging their heads in shame for believing the utter rubbish spouted by the Ministry of Defence.

[tucumseh]

Any of this to do with Bowman and batteries? A fair question in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but BOWMAN HF is the radio of choice in mountainous regions. At the time in question, there was a total recall of BOWMAN HF batteries due to their nasty habit of bursting into flames, caused by poor quality design and production. Compounded by the fact the problem with that particular manufacturer is well known and understood by every other IPT in MoD that buys this battery type, so they tend to buy batteries that cost half the price, last longer, weigh less, don't explode and can be recharged 500 times (to spec) instead of a handful. But not with a BOWMAN charger, because they're crap as well.

This amounts to tens of millions wasted each year, which could have bought a few winches (and ESF). Having said that, we probably have enough winches, they're just lying unserviceable somewhere as nobody can be bothered to arrange repair.

In 1986 I attended a SAR policy meeting in Empress State. The final details of the CSAR conversion programme were agreed. Then the beancounter walked in..........:ugh:

[Der absolute Hammer]

May I please ask you a question that confuses and absolutely is not meant to cause offense.
So here I go...
Why do you have a civil inquest when a military person is killed on duty?

[airborne_artist]

Why do you have a civil inquest when a military person is killed on duty?It's the law in the UK. To call it a civil inquest is a bit confusing - there are no military inquests. The nearest the military authorities get is a Board of Inquiry, but these do not just cover deaths. There may well be a BOI for this event as well, but its proceedings are not in public.

[Sven Sixtoo]

A reasonable question.

The Coroner is duty bound to investigate the circumstances of ANY sudden or unexplained death. Since the bodies of Servicemen killed abroad are repatriated through RAF Brize Norton, it falls to the Oxfordshire Coroner to carry out this task. I understand that the volume of work (the military cases being in many circumstances controversial) has caused additional resources to be made available to the Oxfordshire Coroner's office.

Sven

[lasernigel]

Why do you have a civil inquest when a military person is killed on duty?

Just as well with this lot they hide enough as it is. No Labour government has ever been "forces friendly".:mad::mad:

[flash8]

Thank god their are decent people who speak out.

I am thoroughly ashamed of this government. Who don't give a f**** about our boys and girls. Bring back Maggie.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Thank you very much.
But is there one inquest for each man killed or is if many die it then, as you say, rubber stamped?

[airborne_artist]

There's normally one inquest for each set of circumstances, so for example, there's just one inquest for all those killed on board the Nimrod that crashed in Afghanistan.

[Sven Sixtoo]

One inquest can cover multiple casualties if they arise from the same cause - the entire crew of a large aircraft, for example.

The Oxfordshire Coroner, to his great credit, has been thorough and fearless in carrying out his duty on many occassions. No rubber stamp in evidence anywhere.

Sven

[Der absolute Hammer]

Thanks to all that is very kind of you.

[air pig]

The comments, to those responsible for deployment and procurement by Mr Walker, should in his words " hang their heads in shame".

The serpents at the MoD are already trying to spin the, "it's not our fault" line. Jack Straw ( f**k w*t ) saying Mr Walker is being 'strident' in his remarks tonight on Radio 4.

We as individuals must take care that this Government does not slip through the changes in the up-coming Coroner's Court Act that will allow cases to be held in secret, therefore stopping brave Coroner's like Mr Walker speaking out. The Government would try to supress the truth coming out by using secrecy laws.

[Chris Kebab]

Sadly Air Pig it's very rarely the "serpents" to blame once you start digging.

[Chugalug2]

CK:

Sadly Air Pig it's very rarely the "serpents" to blame once you start digging.

Well I'm afraid I'm with air pig on this one CK. The Bowman fiasco, so well described by tucumseh above is a case in point. There is no moral justification in "merely obeying orders" as a CS or SO at the MOD if you know that the result is going to be as tuc describes. The lives of our servicemen and woman are directly threatened when this expensive tat is foisted on them. If Lt Caley tells you to go into a Vietnamese village and "take out" the occupants you must refuse the order and encourage others to do likewise, reporting him to higher authority ASAP. To my mind orders to deliberately ignore Airworthiness Regulations which you are mandated to uphold are also illegal, as are those to pass off equipment that is clearly not fit for purpose. One hopes against hope for a change of attitude to such "procedures" at the Ministry of Defence.

[Sir George Cayley]

Did anyone else hear the Head of all Helicopters on Radio 4 this evening?

Commander of Joint Helicopter Command, Rear Admiral Tony Johnstone-Burt.

If a message could be relayed to him or his staff let it be this:

Dear Rear Admiral Johnstone-Burt, A big well done for your superb performance on Radio 4 this evening. Despite tenacious questioning concerning the "lamentable" failings of your service you played the straight bat and were resilient under fire. Your capacity to avoid answering the questions was superb, though one tricky moment when you both stated that hovering over landmine fields was not a good idea and then explaining how your Wokka did just that seemed to escape the notice of the reporter.

All in all a good use of 10 minutes air time. Now everyone knows you are a complete ******. Good show.

Copies in triplicate to CinC, Rt Hon John Hutton MP and Editor, Private Eye

[spheroid]

You must have been listening to a different Radio 4 than I was. I though TJB came across as compassionate, articulate and he talked a lot of sense. He didn't offer excuses and nor did he point the finger of blame. Well done TJB.

[I'm Off!]

He's actually a very good bloke in an awkward position doing the best job he can with what he is given. Several layers of beaurocracy under him and above him that I could not say the same for.......

[Tappers Dad]

Dear Rear Admiral Johnstone-Burt

"The first casualty of war is the truth"
US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson 1918

PS.The Herc Inquest finishes next week I wonder who the MOD will put up for that one Sir Glenn Torpy or Air Marshal Stephen Dalton.

I see Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy and Air Chief Marshal Sir Clive Loader are retiring .

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Rear Admiral Johnstone-Burt can be heard at;

iPlayer Radio Console (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/news.shtml?radio4/pm)

Starts at point 07.30.

For what it's worth, I thought he played it pretty straight as well. It's not particularly useful to assume that officers of Flag rank are Government stooges or idiots.

[busdriver02]

It seems to me that the real problem isn't that the Brits in question didn't have assets capable of completing the mission, but that they did not ask for help sooner. Why did it take two hours and one failed attempt before the USAF guys showed up? If the Brit commanders knew they were not equipped properly, why didn't they ask for help right off the bat? This is an on going problem for my community. If you guys need help, freaking ask!!! We're all champing at the bit to help anyone, just ask so we can go.

[Clockwork Mouse]

I didn't think the good Admiral came across as a w*nker at all. He made a good, credible job of trying calmly to explain what actually happened to a fairly agressive journo who understood the square root of fa about combat or military aviation and whose sole aim was to inflict the maximum embarrasment on the spokesman for the wicked military. The journo and the femail lawyer interviewed later were bending the coroner's statements to meet their own agendas.

That is not to say that the incident was a most regrettable tragedy, as are all actions resulting in death. However, every land action that results in casualties can be analysed afterwards in the comfort and safety of hindsight by ignorant civilians and blame attached to some poor blighter who was doing his best under pressures and in circumstances that no civilian can imagine or understand.

When I saw the Admiral later on the box I couldn't believe how young he looked. I'm obviously getting too old.

[busdriver02]

As an aside from what I remember, the guys who died were probably done for anyways. It was a case of lifting them off the ground removed the constant pressure the ground provided and resulted in very quick death.

[Front Seater]

Bus Driver,

A ver y good point and your guys help us out regulalry. But remember your guys also need CSAR/JPR cover and you too have only a limited capability. Therefore, for you guys to cover/put on a standby committment for the Brits would require more assets. Where as a 'one off' cry for help in extreme situations then you guys will bail us out (usually - not always - but 90%).

As to Admiral JB - as said before on this thread I thought he played with a straight bat having to be 'accountable and responsible' for policy failings by his predecessors and ultimately the treasury.

However, what is so very surprising to me - and completely amazes me is that how quickly we have lost the so called 'Lessons Learned and Lessons Identified' of the Sea King IRT in Bosnia. Now I love taking the urine out of the Junglies and how they fly that piece of history I do not know, but in the Balkans only a decade ago they were regulalry hauling people out of minefields and became 'experts' in CASEVAC in challenging conditions etc.

Why have we ignored, forgotten and disregarded all of those (harsh) lessons. Is it re-invention of a wheel or political championing from inter-service rivalry and defence companies (as in look how good the CH47 is - it can do everything, including CSAR-X etc).

[tucumseh]

I listened to the BBC report. The Admiral was asked about lack of batteries. He replied “There were plenty of batteries” and, again, “There was 7 hours worth of batteries”.

Without digging out the spec and doing the maths, I reckon “7 hours worth of batteries” equates to about one semi-discharged battery; depending of course of type of radio, power setting, whether or not you are continually polling trying to find a working frequency, battery chemistry and who it was bought from, etc etc. This is a far cry from “Plenty of batteries”.

Also, by stating there was a finite amount of battery time, the inference is that there was no charging facility available (given the UK philosophy is to use rechargeables).

His replies are largely meaningless, except to indicate a dire shortage of what the MoD term a “Critical Enabling Technology”. That is, you’re screwed without them.


On the other hand, the Coroner heard evidence which led him to state in his verdict;

To reach the position where soldiers stationed at two important observation posts, through a shortage of radio batteries and re-chargers, had to resort to firing shots into the air to attract their colleagues' attention to the presence of a threat simply beggars belief.
In fact the battery situation was so dire that a radio communication channel between the two outposts at Athens and Normandy that should have been open all the time could be opened for only one minute every two hours.


I think we should be told if the above shortages were related to the need to totally recall BOWMAN batteries for REPLACEMENT (not repair) at precisely the time of this tragedy (2006). And, believe me, you don’t replace tens of thousands of batteries at the drop of a hat, when the world’s production plants are flat out supplying the US. Remember, this battery problem came as no surprise whatsoever to the vast majority involved in MoD, or to other suppliers.

[spheroid]

Now I love taking the urine out of the Junglies and how they fly that piece of history I do not know, but in the Balkans only a decade ago they were regulalry hauling people out of minefields and became 'experts' in CASEVAC in challenging conditions etc.


Fully concur....But don't forget the Wessex V in 1982....again, plucking soldiers out of harms way. Rescuing Soldiers from Minefields is nothing new.... But it is bloomin dangerous....

[CirrusF]

I'm looking at this with 20/20 hindsight, and am only FW pilot, but is a winch absolutely necessary to carry out such a rescue? Would it not be possible to improvise a rescue using simply a fixed rope? Could not the Chinook (or other non-winch helo) just land outside the minefield, crewman/medic hops out and helo lifts off again with him deployed on a fixed rope. Once casualty is fished out of trouble, helo lands again nearby and casualty stowed aboard.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Cirrus

I think you underestimate the difficulties here. Maintaining an exact height in the high hover in open ground is spectacularly difficult. The SAR boys, who practice that sort of manoeuvre all the time (as a means to avoid re-inflating a collapsed parachute canopy), keep the winchman at constant height above ground by continuous small adjustments on the hoist. Trying to do it just by voice marshalling to the pilot is virtually certain to result in the winchman touching down at some unintended point at some stage in the process. Now that's mostly OK in a peacetime SAR scenario. In a minefield it's likely to get you one more casualty. Even deploying just the rope and a strop for people to self-rescue into is fraught with risk of detonating another mine as the strop drags across the ground. And the idea of setting up a precision hover at about 200 ft for an extended period in a hostile area strikes me as tactically unsound ie you are likely to get shot down. Now it may be that in the circumstances that risk had to be taken, as I understand our American colleagues did in the end - and all credit to them. But that doesn't make it a good idea, just the least worst option.

Incidentally, I simply do not believe that downwash of itself can set off an anti-personnel mine. Debris blown onto a mine, possibly.

Sven

[leopold bloom]

I remember from the dim and distant past that we used to have an SOP for minefield rescues in the Falklands. Never really convinced that it was entirely practical but at least we had a drill that we rehearsed and exercised.

[The Equivocator]

Not my area of speciality here, but could someone who knows explain why we couldn't use RTES in this scenario?

[CirrusF]

I think you underestimate the difficulties here. Maintaining an exact height in the high hover in open ground is spectacularly difficult. The SAR boys, who practice that sort of manoeuvre all the time (as a means to avoid re-inflating a collapsed parachute canopy), keep the winchman at constant height above ground by continuous small adjustments on the hoist. Trying to do it just by voice marshalling to the pilot is virtually certain to result in the winchman touching down at some unintended point at some stage in the process.


Sven, I can't argue with you that it might be difficult to hover at fixed altitude at fixed position as I am not RW. But I have spent some time dangling under or abseiling out of helicopters and I have certainly seen it done. We used to abseil out of Pumas from about 100ft (see pic) and I know the helo hardly budged at all as in training we used to take turns to be the safety man on the ground at the end of each rope, ready to heave if one of the abseilers lost control.

Also, I don't think that you could effect a rescue of a badly injured casualty, with significant bloodloss, unless he was horizontal in a stretcher. That would mean that the rescuer would have to touch down alongside him anyway, so wouldn't the precision of a winch would be redundant once the rescuer was on the ground alongside?

I don't deny it would be difficult and dangerous, doing it without a winch, but surely it is not impossible?

http://i417.photobucket.com/albums/pp254/cirrusf/image0000060A2.jpg

[Sir George Cayley]

In other times, Admirals put in invidious positions by their political masters would have stepped down rather than be seen in a poor light by the country.

The fact that Tony Jonhnson-Burt sought to justify the unjustifiable is my main gripe. I'm no fan of R4, the Beeb or shrill legal evangelists, but nor am I a fan of senior officers who tow a clearly unenable line. Unless you wish to take issue with the Coroner.

I accept that civilians straying onto a MIL forum should expect incoming, but my lasting impression of the interview was that he didn't value the lives of the troops at the front.

One final point, he said "they had the right kit" yet a simple piece of paper on which the mine field was marked was not made available to the very people it could have saved, making the rescue unnecessary.

I've always accepted the notion of "Grand Military **** Ups" and if TJ-B had said this was a prize example and he'd ordered a dozen AS365Ns for deployment in theatre I'd now be singing his praises.

If there is another side to the story that can't be aired in public PM as I am bound by the Act.

Sir George Cayley

[AllTrimDoubt]

TJB is a top bloke put in an unenviable position by his predecessors and the politicians who should ultimately be answering for the whole sorry mess.

What a c**k up.

[Dundiggin']

In Kosovo we had a Puma SOP for minefield rescues both day and night; this involved putting the medic on the wire with a medical kit & winching out at a safe height and then climbing to about 120'. This was relatively 'standard' during daylight ops but at night it involved some above average skillsets! The aircrew were on goggles but the poor bloody medic on the end of the wire 120' below the winch op was without goggles, being trawled at safe height (estimated by the medic and 'aircrew experience') to the vehicle where they would be placed onto the vehicle and then check the casualties. Therein we would send the doctor on the winch in the same fashion - that would have been interesting as we never practised with the doctors!!. I practised it and demonstrated it plenty of times and it certainly required lots of concentration and dare I say it - skill! The problem was we the crewmen, had to winch-train the medics on an ad hoc basis whenever we were in theatre - I don't think the medics realised just how dodgy all this was but they carried on regardless. Eventually SEF called a halt to the idea when some idiots decided to practise the idea in UK at night and made a complete 'horlicks' by dragging the poor naive bugger on the end of the wire across Abingdon airfield!! :\
In conclusion; the task is possible with the CORRECT crew composition but you really do need a winch fitted!!
I find it very strange that in Afghanistan the Chinook of all helicopters should not have had a winch fitted when in Belize (Puma) , Falklands and Kosovo (Puma) it was de rigeur?? wtf is that all about?

[Chugalug2]

If there is another side to the story that can't be aired in public PM as I am bound by the Act.
Sir George Cayley

Er...It doesn't work like that, well I sincerely hope not anyway!
Unless and until these "top blokes", including the present CAS, stop defending the indefensible and start to denounce the appalling chaos that now masquerades as the Ministry of Defence the sooner avoidable tragedies such as this one can be avoided. This accident, like the Hercules accident, like the Nimrod accident and a great many others has its origins not in the tactical brilliance of the Taliban but in the inept and malevolent machinations of those in the corridors of power, both suited and uniformed. With a new SoS and incoming CGS, CAS etc let the total reform of the Ministry of Defence be a top priority, for without that we are condemned to more and more of these "accidents".

[sycamore]

Not often I agree with CirrusF, however,when the Devil drives, it is necessary to think `out of the box`,and maybe re-invent another wheel...again.Why,?,because those that Prosecute the War ,don`t ,or won`t learn from history....just a few thoughts then;
Have there ever been any trials to determine the downwash effects,by all types of helos, on triggering mines(obviously not real ones-using smoke when triggered) ?Probably not would be my guess.Why--ain`t gonna happen!!
Are all helos in AGN/Irq fitted with ESF NOW?(Refer to Herc thread) dunno,but guess not...Refer to John Reid saying in Commons something like` we are only going to AGN in a policing role, not involved in combat` or words to that effect...Refer to history of `Policing there` since 1920s !!Ask Russians for advice..
Do crewmen on helos have`hands-free` comms with the helo,when not on board, like SAR....if not...Why not?(ie. not using a long-lead).
Many long years ago,another war,different conditions,jungle ,admittedly,we developed a system of lifting troops out when it was not possible to winch,60ft of cable, from 200ft, using strops or hooks on a length/several abseil tapes
and then lifting to a secure site/larger clearing.It worked,however, HQ FEAF didn`t approve,REMFs again,banned it,but we carried on..as one has to..
These days,climbing gear has improved,ropes are lighter,stronger,carabiners and abseil gear are simpler to use(bosun`s rig on boats-Cirrusf ?)
A winch-equipped helo is ideal,but smaller helos,less d/wash, could do the job
...however...careers are at stake for the man who is brave enough to do ,or authorise it...
Another thought,the Wessex could deploy smoke flares/grenades, for landing in `hot`LZs....can any of our present operational helos do the same..? or has that been passed over as `old fashioned`?
Communications with Army units has always,always been a problem,with units on the ground,and obviously `unit-unit` is no better...Why,in this day ,with all the f$%^&*G technology ,is it so difficult ? Are there not solar powered batteries,chargers/wind generators that can be used ??
During GW1,I was impressed by a Canforce Major,who carried a small case,about the size of a laptop,who could communicate directly with Ottawa,West Canada,or a unit in SArabia,ie pilots; obviously a `sat-phone`,encrypted,or plain ; Why not now, ? almost every unit/patrol should have one ....or is that tooo naieve?
We also used to communicate,air-to-air with neighouring helos,using `Stanley Unwin-ese,with a touch of JohnLennon`s`A Spaniard in the Works`s`,totally confusing to anyone listening...
I may be wrong,but it seems that,whilst there is `high technology` and sophisticated systems running an HQ/TOC/ATOC/FATOC/Ops,that the rest rely on `a man with a stick`,and that,IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH...in this day and age !!!!!
By the way,is the Admiral an ex-junglie,or a `pinger`,or what ?
Another thought,or two,best CAS,a latter-day A-1HSpad,A10s,or Su-25s....

Anything I`ve said etc,should not diminish any lack of admiration for our troops,either on the ground,or in the air,either UK or Foreign,with the difficulties that they have,with equipment,etc,etc...I`m just looking at it from miles away,and under the affluence of incohol....Cheers,lads,and never ,ever give up....Syc...I`m not as good as I once was, but I`m good once,as ever I was.....!!(Sorry lads, that`s really meant for the ladies-at Grab -a- Granny nights)...

[x213a]

TJB is a top bloke who I have served under several times.

Rock and hard place springs to mind here.

[Jimlad1]

"One final point, he said "they had the right kit" yet a simple piece of paper on which the mine field was marked was not made available to the very people it could have saved, making the rescue unnecessary."

My understanding was that there simply weren't any maps of the minefield for the simple reason that Afghanistan is full of the things and we don't know where all of them are?

Much easier to blame someone for "incompetence" for not posessing psychic powers, than to accept that its not possible to know the location of every minefield going.

TJB is a top bloke who is very good at what he does. I'd echo the comments of those who have worked for him that he was in a difficult place. He is one of the finest flag officers that I've ever worked for.

[The Gorilla]

Chugalug.

I agree with you! A friend of mine recently commented in an email having read some of my posts on Pprune, that it appeared I was a possibly bitter towards the RAF! I have to say that if that is the way I come across in my posts I must apologise. This is not the case at all, I had 28 years of fun and magic and I am who I am today because of my service in the RAF.

My only beef is with all the t*rds who occupy the MOD and I include in this any one above 1* status, harsh? Yes but so is the loss of good friends aboard two aircraft that could have been avoided except for a costs basis.

I am afraid that I don’t buy this top bloke crap, I was once on a course with a "top bloke" Wg Cdr who was going to change things significantly in the AEW world when he took over a Sqn. Broken promises right up to the moment he became Stn Cdr and then of course more broken promises, he later became a 1* knobette.
:mad:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Serious question; how does a man size, man shaped and man weight object behave when suspended under a heavy tandem rotor HELO, like a Chinook?

[CirrusF]

how does a man size, man shaped and man weight object behave when suspended


Probably giggling until he realises the aircrew are about to dunk him in the nearest open water...

More seriously abseiling or parachuting from Chinook was no different from any other helo, so I don't think there would be any unforeseen issue dangling somebody on the end of a long fixed line. Certainly worth a try IMO.

[Tourist]

There are very few senior officers that I would say this about, but T J-B is one of the good guys.

[MaroonMan4]

I have the utmost respect for the Admiral,and undoubtedly he has inherited an HQ that has no real say/clout (Land ensure its future through funding tanks and guns, Strike the same with zoomie things and the true blue Fisheads with the sacred cow of the CVF/JCA).

So instantly JHC has no teeth or any real 'protection', especially when handed to previous JHC Commanders that look for promotion rather than morale courage.

I am sure that the Admiral's team have already put forward and staffed a requirement for a dedicated recovery capability. But as we all know with the current environment and PR massacre that defence will have to wait until after the election and then even longer for the 'new' Defence Review.

Until that time no money, funding, resources or requirements are going anywhere and this risk I am sure has been fully communicated to the MoD.

At best all we can try and do is join the frantic scrabble for resources for UORs etc, at worst we can all shuffle paper pretending to do something, but in reality all knowing that no one is going to make a decision until after the post election Defence Review.

The Admiral knows this and was used as the media sacrificial lamb because the Politicians and top brass were trying their hardest to distance themselves as far as possible from this incident.

I really do hope that we do invest in a proper recovery capability as there is nothing worst then flying into a job knowing that you are not the best crew/aircraft for the task, but equally knowing that there is nothing else in the 'tool box' or 'golf bag' to use to satisfy the golden hour.

This is resource intensive, but I do not think it requires a shiney new Dauphin or A109 or whatever and personally I believe that this capability could come from either the Merlin or Sea King Fleet. The cost is in the training and the readiness levels (and in removing scarce SH assets from other pure lift tasks). Wide and varied environmental training, guaranteed peacetime flying rates and working with a dedicated ground party (protection party and specialists - EOD/Medics etc).

This cannot be too much to ask when we are fighting such bloody battles with high casualty rates......can it?

[MightyGem]

Incidentally, I simply do not believe that downwash of itself can set off an anti-personnel mine. Debris blown onto a mine, possibly.

Some AP mines have little prongs that protrude just above the surface, and only need the slightest touch to set them off. The prongs can be connected with tripwires to increase the likelihood of someone setting them off. So, yes, the debris kicked up by a helo could easily set one off.

[PTC REMF]

There are CSAR assets in theatre, they're just not British. Why spend the money doubling up on a capability that already exists? what is required is extra lift, remember this incident was over 2 years ago, things have evolved in theatre since.

[MaroonMan4]

PTC,

Yes I agree in part with your post - our US bretheren do have the CSAR capability and yes things have 'evolved' - as you know the Junglies were not in theatre at the time of this incident.

But, I reitterate, the spectrum of 'recovery' is vast and therefore may not warrant the US CSAR activation, many of the tasks are actually CASEVAC/MEDVAC/IRT/MRT etc etc - which the US do not have the assets to cover the entire coalition forces, hence UK PLc taking on its own organic role.

It is this organic role that one could argue is not resourced properly with both equipment (aircraft mods etc) and training. One could also take it a step further and identify that due to the paucity of pure SH lift that everything is 'double hatted' and multi-role. On the surface this appears an efficient use of assets, but when the actually job needs doing a dedicated, fully trained and experienced team with the right aircraft/equipment/modifications would significantly reduce the risk to the mission and more importantly increase the chance of a life being saved.

To further expand the personal observation and opinion, I believe that in this media fuelled and political spin environment that whenever an overseas 'mission' takes place it should have a dedicated recovery capability. Whether this is a future NEO, CT task, or another conflict. Strategic and Political failure can come from one British serviceman/woman being dragged naked through the streets or in an Orange Boiler suit on You Tube - wherever it is in the world. If not it becomes an 'implied' task to the deploying unit, and as we know implied tasks do not get funding or the levels of training to the standard that may be required should a recovery be required. With this training I am not just talking about the aircrews and engineers, I am also talking about the staff that provide advice to the HQs. Whether CH47 downwash or AH as a recovery asset - an experienced specialist in recovery on the Staff (rahter than a generic joint aviation Staff Officer from any background/service) may also reduce risk and provide life saving advice.

Again, personally although such a capability is not 'cost neutral' it is not a significant amount of money and can be formed from within an extant capability until FRC does eventually appear.

Just a thought?

[seakinger]

Maroon Man- hear hear.:D

TJB is a very capable bloke put in a bad position by politicos and MOD heirarchy.

JHC has very little clout when it comes to funding so TJB cant exactly go out, buy OTS and remedy the situation. MOD procurement is in a bad way, fundamentally bankrupt thru the next 10 years. Why do you think Drayson left? In year measures are going to hurt the current fleets and the ability to train even more.

Will we get new helis to replace SK, Puma, all very soon coming to the end of their shelf life? Not while we have this government.... but I read today we will get lots more hospitals and schools... so as a result we make do and we will have more inquests which reflect badly and unfortunates like TJB are made the whipping boy.:ugh:

and the media sees it thus...

Soldiers' families furious over £100m perks for top brass - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/soldiers-families-furious-over-163100m-perks-for-top-brass-966255.html)

so watch where the axe will fall next.:mad:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

CirrusF. Thanks for the one and only response to a serous question.

I don't suppose we'll see much of this "f**k for virginity" initiative;

www.telegraph.co.uk/fi...ssion.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3224890/Financial-crisis-Alistair-Darling-will-spend-his-way-out-of-recession.html)

[In Tor Wot]

GBZ I think the quote that seals it is :

"This a time when you have to support the economy," he said. "You will see us switching our spending priorities to areas which make a difference."

The military do not 'make a difference' in this context so expect more pressure to hand back the Defence vote to the Treasury. :mad:

Starting with this perhaps from Seakinger's link:

" The MoD argues that the children of all service personnel are eligible for the Continuity of Education Allowance, which reimburses up to 90 per cent of school fees. But ministers are so concerned about this system that the defence minister Kevan Jones has ordered a review."

That should help stave off all those PVRs and option point departures . . . . .:ugh:

Getting back to the thread.

Whilst everyone was focused on the issue of helicopters and winches, what about the basic training the guys had? If there were no helicopters available, what was their Plan B? How could a ground unit deploy to Afg (of all places) and not expect to encounter minefields and train their personnel how to extract themselves from one?

BTW I also thought the Admiral made a valiant effort to explain the issues rather than respond to the near hysterical ranting of the interviewer.

[Thelma Viaduct]

If they're willing to send you/I to fight wars on the basis of lies, do you really think they are bothered about welfare/training/equipment/deaths etc??

They appear to not give a f**k because they really don't give a f**k. Don't kid yourselves that the tories would be any better, I'm sure they're still equally as useless.

Like a good few on this forum, It's all pretty simple.

[pwwuk]

Link

BBC iPlayer - PM: 17/10/2008 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00dvbcp)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Spending is an issue, and with this push to bring major projects forwards to bolster the economy, surely we should be seeing something happening to hasten SLAM or MQ improvements?.... (not holding my breath...)


As for that article in the independent... <rant>things like that just give me rage... (and go to show how anyone can spin statistics to make them give the correct leaning!)


" £86.8m was spent on private education for officers' children. "


CEA, which is available to all ranks. It's uptake may differ, but I know plenty of SNCOs who make use of it....


"In the RAF alone, £1m was spent on chauffeurs, £3.4m on waiters and waitresses in officers' messes and a further £800,000 on bar staff."

That would be "MT drivers" & "Stewards" then... Both service trades, the first an invaluable one, the second last time I checked didn't solely exist to bring the gold-plated cutlery to the table in the Os' Mess as I'm pretty sure they have roles in the air and in other messes on camp... and last time I ate in the JRM-equiv (PAYD unit...) I'm pretty sure that there was someone serving behind the bar.</rant>.....

[MaroonMan4]

Oh deary me -

If the politicians believe that they can start to re-coup their fianancial ignorance and bailing out of failing incompetent banks by starting to attack military ethos and services then standby for that convenant to be not only broken, but visciously severed.

Is someone going to get a grip of the media - they are fuelling much of the troubles in the economy and this kind of inaccurate reporting on CEA and the like is shameful. All to increase their sales with sensationalist stories.

Normally the press are given much assistance when visiting military establishments and when the media visit military units there is every attempt to let the guys on the shop floor tell their story unhindered by Senior Officers.

Perhaps we should start a black list (official or unofficial) of media agencies and outlets that continue to deliver and publish half truths and misleading articles. Naturally, 'we' would never say 'no' to a visit by the media - but we can stop being so helpful and wilco and give them a very dull, non informative visit.

[ChristopherRobin]

Most of the above makes me glad I left the army during the summer - in one way. Having served as the JHF(A) Ops officer I saw some of the decisions that had to be made on the basis of availability of kit (or more usually the lack of it). Winches were generally u/s, but there is no guarantee that a winch in itself is the solution to such a casevac, as previous posters have noted.

I think that, while the bravery of aircrew and troops involved in IRT duties is unquestionably of the finest calibre, the lack of a dedicated cadre of Combat SAR crews and suitably equipped helicopters (Red-illume capability etc) is, and will continue to be, a significant factor in the outcome of complex rescues for years to come.

This government will pay billions to rescue a bank, but nothing to rescue a soldier from a minefield.

For the record, Admiral Tony Johnstone-Burt is undoubtedly the finest officer I ever worked for. He has moral courage in spades and I have no doubt he will do all the lobbying that he can to solve the problem, but even a passing familiarity with defence acquisition structures will show that he has no power to change anything - yet. My prediction in an envelope is that he is destined for much greater things and may yet find himself in a stronger position to do so later on.

[rolandpull]

Just wondering how long the internal winch is in the Chinook? I have been winched out of the centre hatch a few times. Does the cab carry the cabin roof mounted pulley as standard?

[gar170]

I think the issue here has been a bit distorted.Its not that the mod has not spent millions on winches but why is it that the mine fields were known and maps made but not made available. It seems that the heli support guys are being made scapegoats because it makes better headlines.

[In Tor Wot]

Gar,

I think you're hitting the nail squarely there. The maps and location of minefields around that position were known - why didn't the guys in that position have the information?

Additionally, why weren't the coy and bn commander front and centre at the coroner's court to explain these lapses?

I think the whole issue of winches is spurious to the more basic and simple failings of the immediate command chain and training system.

[busdriver02]

What I was trying to get at was that USAF CSAR guys are primary CFACC personnel recovery assets. How many times does the CFACC require that capability? When I was in Afghanistan in 06 there were two, the Dutch F-16 and the Nimrod crash. The rest of the time, we sit around waiting. Sure we help out the army doing some medevac stuff, but that's because they aren't afraid to ask. That's mostly because we also supply some birds to do pure medevac in an in lue of type tasking, but the mold has been cast. If you find yourself over there and in need of help, freaking ask. We can't help until the request is made. I promise you that the crews are champing at the bit to help in any way possible. PLEASE dont' be afraid of asking for help if you need it, lord knows we want to help.

Off soapbox.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Bus Driver

Another nail hit.

Lots of the time the system is in place but nobody asks. We all need to work at explaining who is there and why and what we bring to the party - and because people change in theatre every few months we need to keep saying it.

Talk to each other and stay safe.

Sven