Banner Towing by Helicopter

[G-ROAR]

What are the regs regarding banner towing in the UK from an R44?
If the banner is not for hire or reward can a PPL, with the approved equipment legaly tow one?

[verticalhold]

G-ROAR;

I flew the Cabair banner system when it was first introduced. The CAA stipulated a twin and we jumped through months worth of hoops including trial flights and a lot of crew training, both pilots, observers and ground crew.

AFAIK the Cabair system is the only one approved by the CAA and they stipulated professional licenses with a minimum number of hours of underslung work.

Banner towing demands a lot of respect from those involved as it is incredibly easy to get it terribly wrong, with highly public, and probably fatal results.

PM me if you want to know more.

VH

[md 600 driver]

they do it in portugal with a jetdanger

[ivakontrol]

Can you tell me:


the VNE you used when towing,
the length of rope/wire
weight of 'counterbalance' on the end
weight of the banner
:confused:

[Non-PC Plod]

What's an "Avoid Curve" anyway?

[heliwes]

Am I mis understanding the following by thinking Banner Towing is not allowed at all regardless of machine used???

6.13 Aerial Advertising and Banner Towing
Aerial advertising by banner towing from a helicopter is prohibited under Article 82 –
Prohibition of Aerial Advertising and Propaganda - of the Civil Aviation Act 1982. The
only form of aerial advertising allowed is prescribed in paragraph 4.g of the Civil
Aviation Aerial Advertising Regulations 1995 (Statutory Instrument No. 2943) that
allows “the use of any helicopter for communicating information by means of an
illuminated or non-illuminated sign attached to but not towed behind the helicopter”.

[Ding Dong]

illuminated or non-illuminated sign attached to but not towed behind the helicopter

You don't tow it behind .. you sling it under. !? ..

[HighPeaks]

whats wrong with this exactly in your opinion???

Some of you guys are so risk averse to practical applications involving rotary wing flight that I wonder if you ever fly your heliocpters or just leave them parked and do routine maintenence on them.
Either that or you must work for a regulatory agency.

[G-ROAR]

Thanks VH for the info.
If we need to progress things I will e mail you. Cheers, much appreciated.:ok:

[Flying Bajan]

I'm not a "prude" by any stretch of the imagination, but flying an R44 or R22 within the H/V diagram curve is not something I'll ever do for love or money.

Have just under 1400 hrs in them instructing and commercial work if it matters...

[Bravo73]

whats wrong with this exactly in your opinion???

Some of you guys are so risk averse to practical applications involving rotary wing flight that I wonder if you ever fly your heliocpters or just leave them parked and do routine maintenence on them.
Either that or you must work for a regulatory agency.

Highpeaks,

If you've been around here for a while, you might have noticed that there is often a difference in attitude with regard to risk from US/FAA pilots and EU/JAA (esp UK/CAA) pilots.

If I was to generalise, I would say that US/FAA pilots are often willing to accept a certain level of risk. On the other hand, EU/JAA pilots will try to minimise the level of risk in anyway possible. (For 'pilots', also read 'regulatory bodies').

For empirical evidence, please compare the recent accident rates in the respective EMS and offshore industries.

[HighPeaks]

Bravo,
I would agree with you that UK pilots are considerably more risk averse but I would argue that that difference is based on the type of operations conducted and the scale of those operations in our respective areas. I suppose I cant blame an offshore or ems pilot, from either side of the pond, for looking at someone essentially longlining from an R44 and deem it 'unsafe' out of hand.
The leading cause of accidents will always be people running into stuff and not engine failures in the HV curve. As far as your ascertation regarding emperical evidence as pertains to accident rates I would ask that you point me in the direction of a study that bears that out. There are considerably more hours flown in both sectors, especially ems, flown in the US than the UK and Im not aware of any statistics where that difference in scale is accounted for.
My point is that for people who come from a place where real utility flying is rare at best, just about anything but straight and level looks 'unsafe' or 'completely barking' as SilsoeSid put it so eloquently. Some of us dont like being called 'completely barking' for doing our jobs- its a different story when we're on the ground :).

[Fark'n'ell]

What's an "Avoid Curve" anyway?

I'snt that something we called "Deadmans Curve" many years ago?:D

[Ding Dong]

What does Robinson say about slinging from an R44 ?? anybody know ?? If robby say its ok then I dont see what the fuss is really as long as your within the lines .. Does Robby supply a line release system to dump your load if the donkey gives in ?? ..

On a side note, I did see a hughes300 moving a horse by a sling in NZ last year, wish I had a camera at the time.

[Non-PC Plod]

Fark,

Maybe we could update the terminology to a "Not dead yet, but trying!....man's curve":}

[Bravo73]

Highpeaks,

Hmmm, I think that you need to read my post again. I was just giving you a reason behind some of the comments. (ie 'you' are willing to accept a certain level of risk. 'We' try to do anything to limit the risks involved. This is different to your term: 'risk averse'.) If this means using 2 engines for banner towing work (and hence exposing ourselves to a much, much smaller h/v curve), then so be it.

I'm not looking to start a p!ssing contest.

[HighPeaks]

Me neither freind, I wasnt trying to sound judgemental or confrontational in my post. My apologies if I did. I was simply sharing my thoughts as to why those differences exist. We all have to operate in our own operational idium and we all try to do everything we can to ameliorate risk. My operational idium doesnt allow for an excessively and prohibitively expensive twin engine helicopter to tow a billboard around the sky. Or to sling water buckets, or chrismas trees, or seedlings, or hay bales, or a thousand other things that are slung from single engine helicopters. If I bid that type of work with a twin I wouldnt have any work.

If I, or for that matter most of my colleagues as pilots, refuse a mission like this then there is no food on the table. Do I wish that I could fly in an environment with no risk? Yes. Is it possible? No. Anyone who slings from a single will agree or they wouldnt be doing it.

Over here we dont call it the 'waiting to die' or 'dead mans curve' or 'not dead yet but trying curve'...we call it the money curve and not because its fun to be there. Its how we make a living. I just ask that those with the luxury of not having to take any risk dont question my judgment because you dont share the same operational requirements as I do.

[deeper]

I am with you high peaks, banner towing is just another job to be done. we spend month after month in the jungles of the world in the hover at the end of a 100 to 200 feet longline and love every minute of it and the money it brings. I am glad that some of these "professionals" would never do it, they will die wondering while we have all the fun.

What amazes me is that they think it is dangerous. there may be an element of danger but you don't think about it. if you are that worried get into another profession.

"Flying in the h/v curve is something that I would never do for love or money" certainly reduces your employment prospects in the real helicopter industry.

get a life, and have some adventure. :}

[waragee]

well said High Peaks, my sentiments entirely. It's all about acceptable risk and getting a job done.

I have never been involved in twin operations in 25 years in rotary ops but i have seen an awful lot of money curve work carried out by singles very succesfully.

[Flying Bajan]

You wil notice that I specifically mentioned the R22 and the R44.... I just personally don't much care for their "crashworthyness"

By the way, I'm done flying Robbies and seem to be doing ok so far in this industry we love.

Fly safe (as you can) fellas ! :-)

[chutedragger]

Have flown the "airplane style" banner. Full bridal on a 600 foot line. Not the weighted style sling load shown in the video. It was 10,000 square feet (seriously!!). The static weight of the thing was 150 pounds. We flew around for at 40 to 50 knots all day long. A little tricky to land!! but rather uneventful. day 3, to burn some hours before a retorque...took it out with an AS350 (with a load cell). 40 knots equalled 400 to 500 pounds. 60 knots was almost 1000 lbs!! That was the end of the R44 days! The problem really lies in the winds and where you might divert to when you cant get home with a 10,000 foot sail. (i can see many of you thinking how big is 10K....80'x125' BIG!)

[Scrawny]

Brave man flying the 'aeroplane banner' style banners!!! You should seriously consider what you are getting yourself into after the Long Beach incident a year or so ago!! I'm not suprised it is difficult to land, they are called aeroplane banners as they are designed for aeroplanes or non-tail rotor aircraft. Aeroplane banners flying up into the tail rotor is never a good idea.
To conclude....'aeroplane banners' designed for aeroplanes, used by aeroplane people. Aeroplane people should not be teaching or training helicopter people to fly them. Have you ever considered what would happen to the un-weighted banner if you had to enter an auto. Have the aeroplane people selling you these banners ever run through or tested that scenario??
Just looking out for Helicopter people...and thought i'd have my five pence worth.
These people seem to know what they are doing and also are run by helicopter specialists. Hobs Banners - Welcome to Hobsbanners (http://www.hobsbanners.com)

[bluestack]

I second the above post - the banner system in place by HOBs is an amazingingly simple and effective bit of kit, having seen it in person.

Granted you're slower than normal - but you're high..and the way that thing drops it's balast, and the banner curls around the longline on it's way down is impressive.

Have to agree, about the HV curve thing.
It's where we earn most of our money, if we didn't have to be in it, there wouldn't be helicopters.
I work in it as little as possible and always have an 'out' in mind.

I walked down a street in Glasgow one day, and a for sale billboard fell from a building and hit someone - rather I have the skill and awareness to control/limit my own decisions

[HOVERJOCKI]

I was the pilot in that Long beach incident and that style of banner is a crazy one to do.
It all seemed good at the time until like anything that goes wrong it sucks.
If i knew then what i know now i wouldn't have flown that style of banner, due to the lack of information about the whole system and the possibilities of what he banner can do if it fouls up.
The other longline version looks the better one to use if you really have to tow a banner as it is just a verticle line with the banner directly under the aircraft and a massive weight keeping it down.
Hasn't stopped me from slinging as we have fire seasons over here which can bring in the big bucks.
With the HV curve flying it is down to the pilots mind set at the time. Slinging is an HV job, you're in it like it or not.
For me personally i love this flying, i have already made my mind up that i will deal with the situation if and when it happens and just the skill level of this type of flying you achieve is a buzz for me.
Call me nuts but for those that do sling jobs whether it be fires, ac units to roofs, trimming trees or bringing supplies to people 9000' on a 150' line to a small clearing and putting the load right on the spot.... that skill level is why we do it.

[adobewombat]

Hi,

I need to find insurance to tow banners from one of our helis. Can you suggest any possible insurance companies?

Simon

[Barshifter]

There was a good thread on this including photos a while back

https://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/232838-helicopter-drops-big-flag-over-london.html

[Spunk]

What happened to Hobs Banners? Can't find them anymore? There web page belongs to some Chinise (?) dentist lab 😳

[Torquetalk]

"On a side note, I did see a hughes300 moving a horse by a sling in NZ last year, wish I had a camera at the time."

Appearances can be deceptive. This was more likely an operation conducted using the STC/H269/REDRUM/Additional Horse Power

TT