Finding ATPL Gen Nav Tough..any advice

[Duffer2007]

Hi everyone,

Im currently studying mod. 1 with bgs and im finding gen nav particularly difficult to grasp. It's nothing outside of my capacity but the fact I'm doing distance learning means it's taking me that little bit longer to get the meaning of different things.

Has anyone out there got any advice on study methods for this particular subject, most of all i'd love to know any books or dvd's(oat media etc) that you've used to help in gen nav and possibly met too.

Any help is most appreciated guys!!


Ian

[Sudan19]

Hi Duffer,

I've done my nav/met exams and failed both of them first time. got 74 on nav but i still had to do it again.

after passing the rest of the exams it was time to do nav and met.

for nav the thing i worked on a lot was the CRP-5 lots of questions on that. you need to be very fast at that because there is not much time in the exam.

The second thing i did a lot of work on was the theory questions. some people forget about them but they are really important.

i did a bit on PET/PSR Questions i think we got about 2 in the exam.

all the above plus the bristol question bank helped pass the exam. i didn't really use any Software so i don't know what's out there.

For met, Oxford met CD is the best. if you spend some time on that CD you will see that met in not really as hard you think it is. it's a great CD.

Do the question bank on Bristol as many times as you can. remember all the charts and type of clouds and you should be fine. i did all of this and got %96.

All the best

[plugster]

You should have an understanding of how the charts work and how they are made. Furtheron the most important point is: Practise the calculations (departure/convergence) as much as you can so you don't need to think too much about it in the exams. You'll need the time for more complicated questions. Nevertheless no need to rush.
It's a bit of everything so don't leave out things on the syllabus.
Hope that helped

[Duffer2007]

Thanks for your replies guys ill take them on board!! So does anyone know any good books or software to help with nav? Im thinking of buying the oxford or jepp atpl manual?

[G-FATTY]

ive got some computer study manuals software.
PM me your email address if your interested

G-FATTY

[no sponsor]

I had the same experience. Isn't Gen Nav the first set of things you do for BGS? I recall having quite a bit of difficulty, and I was only in the first few pages of the course.

Follow the above advice, and practice those calculations. Learn the question bank like the back of your hand.

:ok:

[brs]

my advice is to:

learn the CRP5 very very very good.

In the Gnav exam I was attending there was a very very high amount of CRP5 questions.

best of luck

[ATPMBA]

What topics are giving you trouble?

What I have done is to read through the chapters and do the examples.

Then I go back and read through it more slowly and handwrite some study notes, actually lots of notes. After that I enter them on my computer and print them out. It seems to work for me. I do the self assesed example and then do the assesed ones and email them in.

There is a lot of material to cover, it appears much of it is of a rote type of learning which means if you put away your notes, six months later you will forget a lot of the material and may not pass the test unless you have photographic memory.

I did an MBA degree several years ago and this ATPL stuff is harder!

[Obs cop]

I wouldn't worry about looking to Jeppeson or OAT for alternative books to learn general Nav.

The vast majority of general nav is not extensively used (as I understand it) in real life.

There are 2 ways to look at general nav.

First was the way I tried it which was to try to learn the principles, which is damned hard work.

The second route which I know many follow is to learn the mechanics of how to answer the questions. Practice with the Bristol Question bank aids this tremendously.

Do not despair however, the brush up courses are worth their weight in gold. Indeed, grivation on polar stereographic charts was a complete mystery for months. I felt daft scrawling small pictures to try to work it all out, only to be shown how to draw the pictures more clearly on my brush up!

Get very comfortable with your CRP5.

There are also useful hints for maps and charts. I always looked at it that generally for a chart to be of use either a rhumb line or great circle would need to straight otherwise you couldn't plot on it.
By remembering what parallels of latitude looked like on charts (itself a rhumb line by definition) I could figure out the properties of charts and thus how to plot on them.

With conical and polar stereographic, parallels of latitude are curves or circles so the great line is straight etc.

It is one of the harder exams but perseverence will help no end,

regards,
Obs cop

[EGCC4284]

I would not waste your time with Oxford or Jepps nav stuff.

I did BGS distance and struggled with Gen Nav. I failed it twice and was lucky 3rd time around.

I passed on 3rd attempt after doing all the Gen Nav feed back from BGS which took me 5 days of 4-5 hours to get through. If your really worried, get in touch with Barry at BGS and ask if he can do his weekend course in advance before you go down to the 2 week brush up, plus ask him for all the Gen Nav feedback he has in advance and spend a whole week or so at home going through it before you go down to BGS for the brush up.

It was his feedback that got me through it 3 attempt.

Just for the record, I am now flying a 737 for a charter and not yet once needed anything I learnt from the ATPL's, forgot over half of it now.

Polar stereographic charts, whats all that about

[Flying Squid]

Gen Nav is indeed a total bitch. My groundschool class strugglend like **** for weeks with it, especially me, so I feel for you matey. However I passed it first time with an 86% through shear drilling of question after question after question. Its the only subject that Ive come across that you cant really "Bristol".

The facty type questions can be databased but the other really require hours and hours of practice. Sorry I cant be of more help, but the harsh reality is Gen Nav is horrible. I found it really interesting as someone else also said above but as Im sure you've found out by now that doenst make it feel any better when you're sat up at 2am trying to understand Convergancy or Polar Stereographics etc etc etc. I found it clicked in the last couple of weeks (thank god!) If you get stuck with anything feel free to PM me and I'll try to help but if not, good luck and feel safe in the knowledge that it can only get better once you've conquered it! :ok:

[Flying Squid]

Just to second EGCC's post above...... Polar Stereographics, Orthomorphism, Transverse Mercator's.......all total crap!

[L'aviateur]

I'd agree with earlier comments that learning the basic principles of navigation thoroughly makes the rest come a lot easier. The General Nav in ATPL is still not as complex as it could be. Lots of different ways of doing the calculations if you can think it through.

[blablabla]

If you have good feedback questions then they are your cherry use them over and over and over then as you see the questions it`ll help you to understand the areas abit better and why such an answer is correct etc
If your having trouble then get as familiar as you can with the actual questions then come exam time you will have no problems.

Good luck

[jamess115]

Sudan19 is right. It varies on the paper of course but i would strongly advise you to practice on your CRP-5 as you are highly likely to get a ton of simple questions which can be quickly solved using this.

PET/PSR questions are also pretty easy and these carry relatively high marks in the exam. You will be pressed for time on this paper so make sure you leave time to check your answers. - Very Important.

[G SXTY]

Some pretty good advice on this thread. I'd also recommend learning to love your CRP5. Using it quickly and accurately is one of the keys to passing general nav. Also - and this is difficult to appreciate when you're sat at home banging your head against the wall - the BGS brush-up courses are extremely effective at cramming information into your head. After 2 weeks in Baz's company I was dreaming general nav questions in my sleep - quite worrying really.

Finally, console yourself with the thought that 90% of general nav is completely irrelevant to 90% of real-world flying, and has mostly been dreamed up by navigators as a way of getting back at pilots. Once you start driving something with a glass cockpit and FMS, the only bit of general nav you'll use day to day is the three times table. :)

[Duffer2007]

Thanks so much guys, I wasn't expecting anything like the response that you've given me! All great advice and its kind of put me at ease to some degree.

I appreciate all your advice!!!

Ian

[aintboeingaintgoing]

I like most of the other posts REALLY struggled with Gen Nav and only passed it on the third attempt (SCARY EXPERINCE), I read through the material and made notes etc but what I found was I spent ages on the Bristol website doing the feedback questions, BUT I did not just learn the questions and answers like a lot of people do, I actually work out how to do every one of the questions I did not understand and then made more notes of the formulas I used and in the end it just became easier and easier the more I practised. Like the other posts say, make sure you know your CRP 5 backwards and do lots of examples so that when you in the exam they are second nature and you can spend a little more time on the harder questions, which they like to hide at the BACK of the exam paper J

Best of luck……. :ok:

[727Man]

Did my 14 2yrs ago, I did mine with Oxford, but used BGS Question Bank and the BGS Forum, Baz was very helpful. I found that if you dont understand something, write it down step by step of how to get the answer. I did this and completed Gen Nav with 30min to spare.

[wobble2plank]

Look on the bright side,

When you get the job you're after you just punch the buttons on the FMGS/FMS and follow the green/magenta line! :E

ATPL exams are a pain in the ar$e and are there to filter out those who can't be bothered.

Oh, and don't try to go from the north pole to the south pole in a 777 unless you have the software fix. One of our 777 crews tried it and the FMS gave up and crashed trying to calculate an infinite number of routes!

Boeing fixed that one quite quickly!

[Andy_20]

Thank god, im not the only one! i started my training 2 weeks ago and thought i was doing quite well, got through 2 weeks worth of work in just 1 week. Then i hit GRID NAV!?!? What i find im having the most difficult with is the fact you read the information, and understand it, you fill in the small questionnaire after each section and get 100% and feel quite pleased with the result. Then you hit the Progress tests which have questions which havent been explained in the information.... find myself going through the progress tests after to work out what i need to know.

Also does anyone else know why the calculation 12, squre root on the flight level doesnt work. When i did the progress tests on this i found that the calculation is 1.25 x the FL.

Has anyone esle found any wrongs in their information?

[Duffer2007]

Can I just say your in my shoes exactly, grid nav!! Find it the same with the tests, all happy getting my 100% and then boommm...you fail the progress test and end up learning loads of new things you'd swear you hadn't read about before! Maybe its the bristol way..because so far I am learning a lot because it makes me sit down not wanting to fail it again so i work that little bit harder!

Ian

[CY333]

I am doing the Gnav now with bristol.
You are right,the notes are not clear about a lot of points on this subject strange enough.
I know how to draw and do all that points when it comes to rhubm lines and gc but when you are doing the progression test and follow the steps in the book, it just wont add up not matter how you look at it.
Is just a nightmare.
I have decided to get extra help by a friend who is willing to help me but you are right,it looks like it will be the hardest of them all.
Good help us on this.

[mumblinjim]

Gen nav is indeed a pain in the arse. It was the only thing i failed but i managed to pass on my second attempt. My best advice would be to do tons of practice questions such as BGS question bank. Also make sure you keep nice and calm in the exam, there is a time limit but you don't need to scream through it in a blind panic as i did on my first attempt, there's plenty of time. Loads of plotting and CRP5 in my exam. Good luck:ok:

[wingbar]

As a present airline jet F/O I can say that Gen nav was one of my hardest subjects.
It is tough but keep going at it, and know that CRP like the back of your hand. If you are still thinking which way to turn it, you don't know it well enough.

Find one system with it wind down, whatever, and stick with it!

Good luck, and just work hard at this subject!

WB

[Sagey]

The good news is that the exam is a lot easier than it could be! - there is a lot of plotting and CRP5 calculations in it. The course content is a bit of a minefield, but honestly try not to have a mental block about it and slowly work your way through it. The Bristol brush up course is very good and you won't believe it now but if you have gone through the material thoroughly and then work hard at Bristol and in the evenings you will be absolutely fine.

[matty31]

I agree its a hard subject and the mental block is probably the hardest thing to get over, I also found the Bristol notes hard to follow and ended up leaving it until a third sitting. The brush up was good but you needed to be quite proficient already and build from a good foundation.

I was lucky enough to get help from another school and managed to get through it first time and actually enjoy it! I found their notes took me through it step by step without confusing me.


Cheers

Matt