kingfisher in Trouble?

[HurryUp&Retire]

Read an article yesterday saying that kingfisher will be laying of pilots. Any truth to that? If so what fleet (ATRs, A320s, 330s)? From reading looks like the international pilots will be dropped.


Kingfisher, Jet Airways Drop International Routes | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=comm&id=news/KING10108.xml)

[bad_attitude]

yes it is under trouble.

all the new pilots who got the 'letter of intent' but were'nt put on payroll will be given the boot for sure.

rumours have it that those chap with less than 300 hours on type will also have to hang up their caps.

[Geebz]

What about Jet?

[bad_attitude]

naah. 9W's doing alright. maybe cutting down on international routes. but it's ok.

but this is again 'relative' speak.

[Nevrekar]

Folks--all the airlines in India are feeling the heat. Here is an article reprint
on a related topic.



AVIATION
Airlines are bleeding, but a fare hike would alienate passengers
By Kumar Anshuman
On one of his recent flights to Mumbai from New Delhi, Vibhor Kataria, an executive at a private company, asked a flight attendant for a specific magazine. She politely replied that they were not carrying the magazine anymore. Kataria was surprised. "I used to get this magazine on flight. That's why I didn't carry it from home." Magazines, in fact, are only one of the many things the air passengers have been denied thanks to the rising Air Turbine Fuel (ATF) prices that leave airlines bleeding.

The cost of ATF, or refined kerosene, tripled in the past four years and rose over 65 per cent in the last five months. "ATF price now accounts for 61 per cent of the total operating cost. The airlines are compelled to increase the fare," says Jitendra Bhargava, director, public relations, National Airlines Company Limited, an entity formed after the merger of Indian Airlines and Air India. "It's a paradoxical situation, where everybody involved in the airline industry is making money barring airline companies." Obviously, the dig is at governments, airports and travel agencies. When the civil aviation ministry asked the state governments to reduce sales tax on ATF, few of them responded. "These state bodies don't realise that if the number of flights to that state gets reduced, their revenue will also be less," says Bhargava.

Having recently raised fares, the airline companies are adopting cost-cutting measures. Besides withdrawing flights from loss-making routes, they are reducing load on board. The lighter the aircraft the less the fuel consumption. "We have withdrawn 20-odd services from different routes from July 1," says Bhargava. Apart from this, Air India will cancel the 5 per cent commission paid to travel agencies and portals from October. "By doing this Air India will save more than Rs 600 crore," he says. Air India will reduce the number of magazines and newspapers on board and "focus more on visual entertainment via screens attached to the seats," says Bhargava.

Jet Airways suffered a loss of Rs 221 crore for the quarter ended in March, against a profit of Rs 88 crore for the same period last year. The total loss for the fiscal year 2007-08 was Rs 654 crore, including that of the low-cost subsidiary, JetLite. Jet plans to withdraw from 25 routes and has other cost-cutting measures also on the cards. "But how much we are able to improve will really depend on ATF prices, which show no signs of relaxing," says a company official.

Kingfisher Airlines is planning to import ATF and thus save at least Rs 600 crore. Another plan is to wash the aircraft often, as to remove dust on the outer panel which increases the weight, and carry only half tank or less water on the aircraft.
SpiceJet cancelled 21 flights, and stopped offering cookies and candy, which saves Rs 1 crore a month. The company has declared a moratorium on new recruitment. "We are not going to renew the contracts with our staff from foreign countries," says an official. SpiceJet suffered a loss of Rs 133 crore in 2007-08. The company projected a cash inflow of Rs 140 crore in June, out of which Rs 110 crore was spent on ATF and Rs 19-23 crore on lease. It left it with Rs 8 crore to run the company, when the operating cost per day hovers around Rs 4.6 crore.

Is a fare hike imminent? A dip in the number of passengers is the last thing airlines want at the moment. In fact, it is already showing a decline thanks to a rampaging inflation. The 28 per cent domestic passenger growth registered in the last quarter of 2006-07 came down to 11 per cent in 2007-08. Take the case of Ram Singh, a frequent flier on the Mumbai-Varanasi route. He usually takes SpiceJet's Mumbai-New Delhi-Varanasi flight. For his recent flight to Varanasi, he had to pay Rs 600 more than he used to. "But they claimed that they hadn't increased the fare. And they didn't even offer me a candy on board," he says. On his return journey, with his wife and daughter, he travelled first class AC in a superfast train. "Though it took me 27 hours to reach Mumbai, the journey was very comfortable. Also, it cost only Rs 2,800 a passenger compared to Rs 6,153 of SpiceJet," says Singh.

Indigo, Go Air and Paramount have yet to have a proper strategy to combat the ATF price hike. But they are busy doing their homework to figure out the exact damage and counter policies. "We haven't decided on anything and we can't say what will happen next," says C.R. Kannan, assistant vice-president, Paramount Airways. Interestingly, MDLR Airlines, a low-cost regional player, is going ahead with its expansion plans and is all set to add some new Airbuses to its fleet. "We will fly the Airbuses on the non-hilly areas like Pune, Jabalpur and Indore," says Gopal Goyal, chairman, MDLR.

Ajay Jasra, an aviation expert, recommends a three-tier system, like the one in European countries, to cushion the blow. "There should be three categories of airlines-full service, low-cost and regional," he says. "The full service should fly on main routes, the low-cost on main routes but via a regional destination, like Delhi-Ahmedabad-Mumbai, and the regional players should strictly fly on the regional routes like Delhi-Shimla." According to Jasra, the airline companies should sit together and take a decision beneficial for all of them. "Giving way to each other and reducing competition will only let them survive," he says.

Many fear a repeat of the 1996 collapse, in which many private carriers, including the then industry leaders ModiLuft and East West, crashed. But that is just a distant possibility and now the industry is better equipped to deal with the situation. All the same, the sky is not as clear as it was, nor the flight as smooth.

[Geebz]

With oil now down to $77, wouldn't Indian carriers start benefitting from this?

Here in the US, 3 months ago Gulf Coast Jet fuel was $170/ barrel. Yesterday it closed below $100. That is a HUGE cost savings for my airline.

[Dualinput]

Big trouble it seems!
Kingfisher, Jet Airways Drop International Routes | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/KING10108.xml&headline=Kingfisher,%20Jet%20Airways%20Drop%20International% 20Routes%20&channel=comm)

Kingfisher's dues with AAI at Rs 200 cr (http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=337006)

google

[Nevrekar]

ATF prices have dropped but fares have not. Passenger bookings have suffered significantly and load factors are dismal for most airlines on many routes. Added to that is the U.S. economy meltdown that will have a ripple effect. The dollar is almost 49 to 1 INR and that is not helping the airlines who are paying many of their bills in USD. My guess is that the next 6-12 months is a critical "make it or break it" for some of the airlines here in India.
While some of the Indian financiers may have deep pocket, they are losing
big time, first at the airline and then also in the market. They are going to have to put their egos in check and put the brakes on. So many of the airlines owe so much money in "back dues" that even with a few profitbale qtrs they may still not break even for quite a while.

I know first hand of people here in India starting to pull their money out of private banks because of fear that they may lose their capital. Many are shifting the money to nationalized banks because they are viewed as safer.
To the best of my knowledge there is no FDIC (insurance for upto USD 100,000) here in India.

[Rotorhead1026]

With oil now down to $77, wouldn't Indian carriers start benefitting from this?

Yup, but now loads are down considerably since last year - at least from what I've seen.

The general consensus here in India was that Goyal and Mallya were multi-billionaires who could and would pump money into their carriers indefinitely. Indeed, many thought that Kingfisher was being carried as a cost of ADVERTISING for the rest of the company.

The truth? Both of these men are good businessmen (thats how they got rich, y'all!) who won't accept red ink indefinitely and will do what's necessary to stop the bleeding. Just pray they make the right decisions!

[Rotorhead1026]

I know first hand of people here in India starting to pull their money out of private banks because of fear that they may lose their capital. Many are shifting the money to nationalized banks because they are viewed as safer.


Interesting. Disclosure rules here are such that it's difficult to tell how much exposure these private banks have to the "junk mortgage securities" that are giving the rest of the world fits. I hope it's small. We won't know until (if and when) some of these private concerns start disappearing. I doubt the state-owned banks took the bait - they really didn't need to show a high rate of return, hence they had less reason to be tempted. Fewer banks will mean tighter credit - I don't see the Indian government pumping 700 million dollars into the system to prop up private concerns. Hopefully most banks here saw what time bombs these securities were and stayed away. If not, hang on tight! :ouch:

[B772]

Rumour circulating that the Kingfisher A380's may never eventuate.

[Geebz]

If fares are still too high, which were obviously set when oil was $147/ barrel, the will surely lower them to stimulate demand once again. I would think they will do everything possible to stimulate demand before parking jets. I surmise oil will settle in comfortable between $50-$70 a barrel.

[kk pilot]

if you think oil will "settle" in that range for any length of time, I have a bridge to sell you in NYC.....back to $150 a barrel (imo) in less than 18 months - I hope I'm wrong

[Rotorhead1026]

back to $150 a barrel (imo) in less than 18 months - I hope I'm wrong

I hope you're wrong , too - but I fear you aren't.

DRILL, DAMMIT, DRILL!!!!!! :ok:

[getsetgo]

oil cartel does not like oil price below 100$
OPEC has tasted money at 147$,
...................................................
Rumour circulating that the Kingfisher A380's may never eventuate
............................................................ ...........................

its getting modified with sails under the wing.
reduced weight of engines and fuel tanks will give 380 longer range.

[Geebz]

No way oil goes back to $147. No way. You have to understand economics to get that. The cartel was warned that their greed would bring about a collapse in price. Well, that has happened. No matter how much they cut, oil won't be going up.

Remember, they can only cut so much. OPEC countries NEED the revenue. In fact, over the past 3 years the easy money from oil is like a drug to them. They can cut back but only 10% or so. Beyond that they will need to cut social programs and park some of their private jets, which they won't do.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but in this case it turns out oil was indeed in a bubble as so many analysts predicted (I did not, I thought it was going to $180, I was wrong too).

Further to all this, the Saudis are scared stiff that, under Obama, US Congress will will pass a myriad of legislation to give massive tax breaks for the pursuit of alternative fuels. Accordingly, they are pleading with other OPEC members to be content with prices at $70-$80/ barrel (in hopes Congress will get their eye off the ball and forget to address alternative energy).

Even at $50-$60, all OPEC members will still make plenty of money. They know this so they will only accept so much of a cut and will continue to pump from their wells no matter the price. Also remember, a lot of the price moves above $90 was due to speculators. They have now all but abandoned oil as a trading vehicle and are moving on to other strategies. Without the speculators, oil will have a hard time getting past $105.

Of course, now that I've said it, oil will probably go back up to $150... I seem to be wrong in a lot of my investment choices of late.:rolleyes:

[Rotorhead1026]

No way oil goes back to $147. No way. You have to understand economics to get that.

I DO understand economics. If the supply / demand situation gets back to where it was a few months ago, oil will go right back up. Period. The speculators will move right back in. Allegedly terrified or not, the Saudis let it happen last time and they will again. Alternative energy strategies (including drilling everywhere we can dig a hole) are years away from fruition. High dollar for a barrel is now. They just can't resist. :eek:

I'm not saying it WILL happen; I can't predict the future. But it sure as hell CAN happen.

[getsetgo]

HurryUp&Retire (http://www.pprune.org/members/167824-hurryup-and-retire)

intresting ID

you knw kingfisher CEO runs young horses for horse racing
just one race these horses run and go to the grape yard for feed.

[getsetgo]

kk pilot,

if you think oil will "settle" in that range for any length of time, I have a bridge to sell you in NYC.....back to $150 a barrel (imo) in less than 18 months - I hope I'm wrong


i have been looking at your bridge from my petrol pump.
had plans to buy it soon ,but the petrol price is down now,
i made good money when it was at 147$
to buy your bridge i need more time or higher oil price.

why i want to buy your bridge?

i took some samples of bush ;)
from under the bridge and tested them in my lab.
roots indicate oil.
and no drilling required, i can just syphon it out to my petrol pump storage tank.
i assure you free & unintruppted supply all your life.
so i order OPEC to keep up the price till my targets are meet.;)
............................................................ ....................

kingfisher is making losses in aviation but not in distillerry.
and aviation unit was always in trouble.....its not happenned now.

there is a saying in hindi,
(gaon bassa naheen lootere pahle aa gaye.)
even before kingfisher started robbers were ready camping.

[Nevrekar]

As you now know Jet & KF have formed an alliance. While they might be unlikely partners, the principals involved did in fact put their egos in check and saw the writing on the wall. It should turn out to be a win-win for the two carriers but a lot of uncertainty for other money losing carriers. As this KF/9W deal in not a merger, the monopoly issue may be circumvented by simply touting this as purely a codeshare agreement. The reality will be quite different as they will begin to control fares and the majority of the market.
So where does that leave the other carriers? The stronger ones perhaps(Indigo) can stand-alone but the others will have to consolidate or have some other plan of action. Hopefully for the pilots at KF/9W the staffing levels will remain intact.

[Rotorhead1026]

While they might be unlikely partners, the principals involved did in fact put their egos in check


The question is, for how long? Otherwise we'll have to wait for the dust to settle here ...

[Kingfisher320]

Never seen a airline in the world thats operated this way....:eek:WOW. Let alone all the sick things they are doing to get expat out of here...Deccan pilots:D. Everyone thinks that Mallya is all that....walk to walk...talk to talk...he is not the India rich boy as everyone thinks. Everything he is doing is going down hill..FAST. Want to raise...MONEY on new stocks.....WHY? Mallya...big and fast talker..nothing but full of :mad:. They are having problems meeting PAYROLL:= on time...Oct 14th..expats haven't been payed yet....why? Not even following the rules of the contract. For the Indian pilots...wait until expats leave...what will your new salaries will be.....think hard, back to the good old days of few Rupesssss. Yeaaaa enjoy the KINGFISHER :}EXPERIENCE.....hehehe

[asvsu]

I heared alreday KFA started cutting the FO salaries and possibly will downsize the crew nos as well..

[getsetgo]

king fisher 320
............................................................ ...........
For the Indian pilots...wait until expats leave...what will your new salaries will be.....think hard, back to the good old days of few Rupesssss
............................................................ ..........................

well your salary is in dollors
go and get it
why you worry others salary

[Kingfisher320]

Get Go

I want everyone to know the full TRUTH about whats going on with Kingfisher and incredable India....and Get Go...I already found a new job...what about yourself?...what are you going to do:rolleyes:?

[Capt Apache]

For the Indian pilots...wait until expats leave...what will your new salaries will be.....think hard, back to the good old days of few Rupesssss

Our new salaries will be whatever market forces determine it to be.Given the cheap cost of living here I dont think it will make much difference.I intend to work here till retirement and its more important that the companies survive.India is indeed incredible as it has allowed you expats to work here in the first place without you having to undergo an Indian medical.You may have had a bad experience with Kingfisher but I know for sure that the expats workin with Jet are quite happy.We do want the expats to leave but thats only because you are hindering the progress of our pilots.There are more than a billion people here and Kingfisher has a 48% market share in beer alone(not to mention his political clout) which is also sold in 52 countries worldwide.If you think he is going down you are dreaming!

[getsetgo]

king fisher 320

good you got new job, concentrate on it.
donot worry about others job.

[Holycow]

capt. Apache - you are obviously not aware what is going on here - it is not that India allowed us to come, we came because there is/was an urgent need of experienced pilots in this country, wake up man !
And that is another nonsense, how experienced captain with thousands of hours can be hindering the progress of 170h copilot ? Very intelligent statement indeed :bored:

Kingfisher Airlines with the current way of operation can never survive on the global sky. Mallya is probably not the best manager but he can never be that stupid to pump 2mil usd daily into a black hole, you do not to be expat pilot to see how kf managers due to own stupidity waste Mallya´s money.
Jet is undoubtly in other league and will survive easily.

I wish that airline survives and many young indian pilots have their job !

[BECMG]

And that is another nonsense, how experienced captain with thousands of hours can be hindering the progress of 170h copilot ? Very intelligent statement indeed http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wbored.gif

First of all there is no copilot out there with 170 hrs coz you need 200 to get your CPL license.So get your facts right.

[Capt Apache]

Im sorry Holycow.At the end of the day we are all pilots and we all know the importance of our jobs.I dont think Kingfisher 320 has any right to be sarcastic about a country that has provided him with work.He can curse Kingfisher all he likes.When I wrote about Mallya I was only responding to 320's Statement.......Everything he is doing is going down hill..FAST.As far as Career Progression is concerned I was alluding to Jet where experienced Captains have had to remain content flying narrow body aircraft inspite of having given been with the company since it started.Hope it works out well for you.

[fadedfootpaths]

For the Indian pilots...wait until expats leave...what will your new salaries will be.....think hard, back to the good old days of few Rupesssss


Thats a good one :ok::E Vijay Mallaya really S:mad:ks and so does the Indian Aviation industry with all the million loopholes and stupid rules.

[Nevrekar]

The industry is going through its very own market correction. I think in the next 12 months the dust will settle, and like it or not, the survivors will emerge and the unfortunates will say goodbye. Expats will be here as long as there is a need, simple as that. If DGCA sticks to its guns we will out of here on or before the deadline of mid 2010. There is a possibility that extensions might be provided on a case by case basis.

As I have said many times over, contract flying is stop-gap flying. You have it wrong if you think you will be on a contract with a company for a very prolonged period of time (although it does happen--Middle-East/Japan/Korea). Unlike the ME, India has plently of pilot applicants (many getting their hrs still) it's only a matter of time before the expats leave. The time--could be several years from now, depending on the growth based need. Expats right now are needed but are expensive to maintain. Even if an Indian Capt was paid an expat salary, he/she is still a whole lot cheaper. The airline does not have to pay income taxes on behalf of the pilot or for housing and travel . As a rough calculation, an expat pilot probably is equal to two Indian Capts expensewise. So from a business standpoint it is advantageous to upgrade as many qualified Indians when they are ready. If Indian airlines cut salaries drastically after the expats leave, then they will be shooting themselves in the foot because most of the Capts will happily go to the Middle-East for better terms. That will leave India with yet another shortage of Capts. I don't think they want to go there.

As far as hindering the progress of local pilots. I beg to differ. If you are stuck on a narrowbody because of a "seat/equipment lock" implemented by your airline the expat pilot isn't to blame. It's your airline.
Hopefully you will be payprotected in that if your seniority can hold the wide-body, then you get widebody pay for being bypassed due to the company's requirement. Personally, having flown widebodies, I think I would be quite happy flying a narrowbody for widebody pay:ok: I like being home almost every other day, not having to deal with sleep issues, reduced rest and multiple time-zones. Widebody flying today is very different from what it was like a decade or so ago. In the old days you actually got to enjoy your overnights with more than adequate rest with time to see some of the sights.
From many posts I read today, sadly many trips are minimum rest.

For the disgruntled expat. If you are unhappy in India or anywhere else for that matter, exercise your contract and leave. You will be a happier person.
Some will be unhappy no matter where they go. No help for you unfortunately. As an expat pilot at Spicejet I will say that I have been quite happy here for almost 2 years now. I fully realize that my contract may not be renewed and I hope not to take it personally. So in anticipation of that scenario, I plan to explore my options in India and elsewhere.

[mac76]

i just finished 1 year flying in delhi and the prices have gone up a lot for all the airlines ,with the cost of local salaries much lower than expats the airlines are and WILL be asking expats to say goodbye,luckily there are still a few jobs avail overseas,if the US pilots keep losing jobs like they are presently doing there will be a shortage of positions mainly for co pilots on meduim,large body aircraft.India was a great place to live ,i'm sure most people enjoyed it if you have the right frame of mind,good luck to KF,Indigo,Spice ,Paramont and Go air:ok:

[Nevrekar]

Jet Airways has just announced a layoff of almost 1,000 employees, most being cabin crews on probation. Kingfisher is reported to follow suit. Stay tuned, it's going to get ugly for the employees.

[Kingfisher320]

You can put lipstick on a PIG, and call it whatever you want...but..just dont forget...its still a PIG. :ok:

Peace out....

[sky jet]

I have been very happy here in India as an expat. I have known from the begining that it was only a short term job. For many reasons I will not be here very long. I may find a job back home. I might miss my family and leave flying to go home. The Indian government might not renew my visa. The DGCA might not issue me a new FATA. The airline will eventually catch up with training and upgrade enough Indians to replace me. In the near term I am a nessesary need for the airline. I like flying here. The FO's are like sponges and are so eager to learn. I feel happy to try to teach them as much as possible while I am here. If you do not like it here I agree with Neverkar, exercise your contract and go home. You just bring yourself and everyone else down by staying around. If you can not afford to leave, then do the polite thing and keep your mouth shut and be happy that you have a job. There are many others in aviation not so lucky right now who would gladly come to the sub continent and trade places with you.

Jet

[Seagul1]

All the expats who are here and want to get nasty. Go home get the hell out of here. We dont need you. Remember you came here we didn't come to your country. Take it or leave it buddy. When you leave we could probably get a guy who's here to teach and share his decades of experience and expertise. So bye bye...

[Capt Apache]

Boy! Are you really from the jungle seagul ? These are real people you are talkin to.They have a family n kids just like we do.You are lucky if you dont have to go to another country for work.I have several friends n relatives working in the States(remember software).Nobodys ever spoken to them like this.Do you even know the number of Indians that work abroad.The number of expats working here wont even come close to that.They send good money back home dude.Not just that dont forget the call centre industry has robbed their jobs.Its a global world we live in.So wake up!

[NG ExPat]

Best comeback I have ever read Capt. Well Said!!

[Rotorhead1026]

Do you even know the number of Indians that work abroad

Well said, Apache. Oh, and guess what happens to Indian pilot salaries / working conditions when the expats are thrown out. Pilot surplus, dude! Hope you like guest houses on overnights ... including captains. :(

[masalama]

seagull....very immature comments ...
Remember Expats did not take your job away....most of them are well qualified /experienced captains,TRI's and TRE's .Do not blame them for what's happening in the Indian industry , if anything the blame squarely lies on government policies and shortsightedness from airline honchos...

I'm sure the racist/xenophobic comments are not indicative of our collective attitude towards our foreign counterparts....apologies from an Indian flyer on behalf of a dimwit gull....
masalama.

[getsetgo]

rotor1026
............................................................ ..................................
Well said, Apache. Oh, and guess what happens to Indian pilot salaries / working conditions when the expats are thrown out. Pilot surplus, dude! Hope you like guest houses on overnights ... including captains. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif
............................................................ ............................
you know
what will happen in Aviation with jet+king combine after one year?:ok:
if some thing goes down deeper in water it bounces back higher in water.(buoyancy)

now aviation industry is sending every body back home including indian staff....its not only expats.
soon very few expats will be left soon.,may be none.
(higher salaried first bcz dollors costing 49 instead of 40 when they hired expat)
govt has not banned expats for jobs in india, and work permit and FATA or living In India.
its the companies which are laying off due to the aviation seen.
companies recruited Indian and expats staff & packing them back.
this is happening all over the world
(layoffs across the globe irrespective of the industry)

one govt from East block country decided to stopped & end work permits for expats above 60 yrs recently, all expat got laid off with immidiate effect, and the pilots who were in air were taken off the flight on landing .
this is not happenned yet.India is incredibly,hospitable.

but i think after two years govt will not issue work permits for expats in india.
and when aviation picks up again companies will hire pilots from with in india and in future also spend huge money for their training(which they are saving now by getting ready made crew and landed up in huge losses,lesson learned by companies)
( 40 Rs burger has become 50 Rs)
as far as indian crew concerned because training ,time,sylabus and cost is very high in india ,so the companies took readly available expats who found India with attractive salaries or conditions.

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to india)
faster DGCA...faster prodution of pilots.

as in the past companies used to train pilots at their own cost,
same time will come,
bcz when companies spend on training... salaries are less.

not because of expats pilots has landed so the salaries are up for indian pilots.
companies has realised if they need to be in long race in bussiness ,they need to see long term. they need to have training,and long term staff
when the staff is on long term bases......salaries are less.
short term jobs.... will always have big salaries.
these are some reasons for less salaries for INDIAN PILOTS.

if these two companies survive throu this turmoil they have capacity to be global king,
they will be Flying IT ,CALL CENTRE,FINANCE AND other industries staff arround the world.

[Capt Apache]

Pilot surplus, dude! Hope you like guest houses on overnights ... including captains. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/sowee.gif

I did not become a Pilot so I could live in good hotels....may be you did.Pilot surplus has already been there for a year now.Its thanks to all the :mad: who fell for the media's bombastic predictions (10000 pilots in the next 3 years... nonsense!).And trust me dude! this surplus is the worst I have seen in my career.Read Pilots wait in the wings for jobs (http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990927/ige27045.html)

The above article is dated 27 Sept 1999 (mind you thats 2 years before 9/11 so you can imagine what happened afterwards).Take that and do some multiplications you will know what Im talking about.

If only guys spending their parents hard earned money would have read history instead of reading the nonsense they would not have created this mess for themselves and everyone else.

[Rotorhead1026]

I did not become a Pilot so I could live in good hotels

Nobody said you did. The only reason I'm in one now is because I have a contract that says so, and local captains are held to the same terms - which is fair. Contrary to some opinions, my company does make a great effort - albeit not perfect - to adhere to terms. The pilot surplus probably means most expats go away over time. As these contracts run out, costs will be cut. Nice hotels? Try the Knights Inn in Marietta, Ohio ... or the Comfort Inn Augusta (Georgia) Airport. As far as cost-cutting goes, most over here have NO IDEA how far things can fall.

If only guys spending their parents hard earned money would have read history instead of reading the nonsense they would not have created this mess for themselves and everyone else.

Agreed. We can only hope the media's "bombastic predictions" are equally skewed towards the negative, and there won't be as many layoffs as some predict. Time will tell ...

[getsetgo]

dear NG ExPat
........................
Best comeback I have ever read Capt. Well Said!!
.........................................................

recruitment boy can never come up to the capt"s level.
they are the last one to get last cheque unless company closes.;) suddenly.
bcz they have to justify /explain to those who were recruited by them.
small airline big round world:ok:

[Rotorhead1026]

as far as Indian crew concerned because training ,time,syllabus and cost is very high in India ,so the companies took readly available expats who found India with attractive salaries or conditions.

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to India)
faster DGCA...faster production of pilots.


DGCA + FAA = speed?


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:


(higher salaried first bcz dollors costing 49 instead of 40 when they hired expat)


Actually, the rupee / dollar exchange rate was about 44:1 when I got hired. Went as low as 37:1 shortly after and pretty much stayed around there until recently. Overall my company got a pretty good windfall for over a year. Now they're giving a little bit of it back. They've never said a word one way or another, and to their credit are still paying on time without complaint. :)

[getsetgo]

kingfisher 320
............................................................ ................................
Entire Kingfisher Operation Is Clueless
Never seen a airline in the world thats operated this way....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gifWOW. Let alone all the sick things they are doing to get expat out of here...
............................................................ ...................................
You can put lipstick on a PIG, and call it whatever you want...but..just dont forget...its still a PIG. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
............................................................ .................................

now you have got a new job so you want to write in this forum about kingfisher .
you must have worked like a pig (saved lipstick chewed/eat/churring dollors) in kingfisher.
If you had worked like a capt, you would have gone to CEO told him the problems and that would have served the airline and so the jobs for everybody, and would have counted/seen more dollors.
kingfisher is a good paymaster.

you have stamped yourself in your own handwritting in your own post above.

[getsetgo]

rotor 1026
............................
DGCA + FAA = speed?
..................................
this is your formula

i didnot use speed word anywhere.
as far as the dollor-Rs goes
airlines have started doing the calculation accordingly.
to the current global situation and $-Rs equation.

as far as your arrival to india ....that time the pax were available.
it was like going to new movie in town.
as people were trying to watch new movie in the town,they were testing and tasting the new airlines.
now its not so.
tests and tasts are over and appetite gone for air travel.
and situation around the world .
even if fuel price comes down global ressssccccccessssssion is staring at Aviation.

[getsetgo]

navrekar
good post
............................................................ ....................
we will out of here on or before the deadline of mid 2010. There is a possibility that extensions might be provided on a case by case basis.
............................................................ ................

i understand extension will be provided to sons of diplomats....etc.
these extentions will stop when diplomat is raided by C.B.I. for accumulating funds which are not according to his income and status.
unless they transfer funds to OTHER COUNTRY.
OR GOVT changes.
this call from CBI can come earlier than 2010.
2010 is last call as far as dgca goes.

[Rotorhead1026]

Getsetgo's words :

(soon this may improve with FAA guy on permanent posting to india)
faster DGCA...faster prodution of pilots.

Getsetgo's interpretation :

i didnot use speed word anywhere.



<<<<sigh>>>> Forget it! I'm done here. :ugh:

"I guess it depends on what your definition of 'is' is ..."

[Pushpak]

when things are good we are fighting and when things are not good at all we are still fighting......after all we are all pilots.
cheers time for beer.

[jet_air]

GUYS COMEONN .. !
Ask any FOs (atleast in IT and 9W) who would they prefer as their P1 ?
Am sure the 1st name to be spelt out would be an Expat.. !
And the next would be an Indian who s been flying for a long time !

Definitely not the guys(indian) who ve just got upgraded.. !

Though these guys do fly the plane very well(Excellent Pilots) ! No Doubt !

When it comes to teaching .. Its the expats..!

Guys they(expats) are much more seasoned and experienced in terms of exposure ?

By Experience and Exposure .. I am not refering FBW or EFIS.. It starts all the way from being an CFI-> Charter Operations -> Regional -> Major !

So they have dealth with a lot more different situations than we did !

So their teaching techniques and CRM and the way they make a Young and Aspirational F/Os like me comfortable is Awesome.

All Expats may not be as mentioned above .. but most of them i ve seen are !

Expats are needed to bridge the Experience Difference that prevails in Indian Aviation Industry but at a Moderated Level !

And EXPATS if you dont like India Plz stop Complaining and Get out !

If you do like this place .. Enjoy your stay and Happy Landings :D!

[Nevrekar]

When I mentioned that extensions might be granted on a case by case basis, I meant perhaps for the expat TRI & TRE here in India. They would be considered most valuable for an airline to remain in operation until there were adequate TRE & TRI's of Indian nationality. Once there were enough local TRI/TRE's then there would be no need for the said extension.

I don't quite get your remark about son's of diplomats etc and the CBI raiding of one's house. What has that got to do with a FATA ?:ugh:

[NGFellow]

For many Indian airlines denial(d-Nile) was nothing more than a river in Egypt. Finally reality has set it and now the pendulum has swung the other way. Airline employees here are in shock. This is all new here in India. And ofcourse once again the media is loving every minute of it for it's news/hype value.

For the expat pilot the choice is clear. Find something else elsewhere now and have better security in the long term. Whether it's the ATR, Airbus or B-777, there are still plenty of Left seat jobs available elsewhere. Even if you don't get canned right now, you will in 2010, which only gives you about 18 months of employment in India. Early bird gets the worm lads!!

Don't rely on extensions etc. They cannot be counted on. Make your decisions on what might be the actual scenario in 2010.

[Capt Apache]

As these contracts run out, costs will be cut. Nice hotels? Try the Knights Inn in Marietta, Ohio ... or the Comfort Inn Augusta (Georgia) Airport.

I have lived in a room full of cockroaches(in Bangalore near majestic...dont remember the name).This was a long time ago when I had nothing.But glory be to God that he put me through such an experience that I have come to appreciate the little things in life.

Just some soul food in troubled times
A great Indian saint(HHSSRS) said "Choice is bondage.Choice means a confused state of mind.You will not choose when your mind is clear.It is like saying 'I have a choice to either go through the wall or through the door'.When I am clear I would say 'No,I will go through the door'There is no choice.

[Lemon Grass]

I understand that KFA have now been kicked out of BKK for non payment. With their ATR FFS now being resold by the supplier to another carrier (for non payment again?), their ATR fleet are going to find difficulties in getting training anywhere.

Pity because they started so well.

[Nevrekar]

Good News for laid off Jet employees--Jet has announced that they are taking everyone back. Hopefully that will extend to the cockpit crews as well.

[ironbutt57]

The truth? Both of these men are good businessmen (thats how they got rich, y'all!) who won't accept red ink indefinitely and will do what's necessary to stop the bleeding. Just pray they make the right decisions!


Good businessman, or previously operated in an environment where competition was stifled, or non-existent? Either way, the old adage "make millions in aviation by starting with billions" is coming to fruition in India..

[NGFellow]

It is good to hear that Jet reversed it's ruling on the layoffs. It made for a great news story and obviously a big relief for the employees and their families. But now comes the reality of the situation. The airlines are bleeding profusely financially. The cabin crew aspect is a very small expenditure in the grand scheme of things. Many times airlines cut employee salaries and lay off folks in the guise of cost cutting. But it never seems to do the trick and ultimately many of these outfits fail.
Crew costs are not the problem usually. It's mismanagement at the higher level and bad decisions, strategic or otherwise that put the airline in a state where finally employees have to pay the price.

Unless Jet and others get some relief from the Govt in terms of reduced ATF costs and others they are kidding themselves if they think they can continue to lose several million USD's a day for a prolonged period of time.
With passenger loads and yield does not pick up, capacity will have to be slashed. When that happens, they will have to shrink the airline even if it's temporary. Once coditions improve then they can consider new options.

[NGFellow]

Airlines asked to clear Rs 900 cr fuel dues
17 Oct, 2008, 0210 hrs IST, ET Bureau
Print (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3605925,prtpage-1.cms) EMail (javascript:openPopup('/mail/3605925.cms',500,470);) Discuss Share (javascript:void(0)) Save (javascript:showdivlayer(3605925,'topdiv');) Comment (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/Airlines_asked_to_clear_Rs_900_cr_fuel_dues/articleshow/3605925.cms#write)Text:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?photoid=3549042
NEW DELHI (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/Airlines_asked_to_clear_Rs_900_cr_fuel_dues/articleshow/3605925.cms#): The petroleum ministry has asked aviation firms including Jet Airways, Kingfisher and Air India to clear their outstanding fuel bills of o ver Rs 900 crore, which they owe to the state-run oil companies. The ministry is even considering steps like a total stop on fuel sales to the airline companies if the dues are not paid up. Oil companies had sought the ministry’s help in recovering their money from the airlines.

According to ministry sources, while Jet Airways has defaulted on payment of about Rs 259 crore, outstandings of Air India and Kingfisher are around Rs 600 crore and Rs 60 crore, respectively. It is understood that the warning has been in reaction of Jet's decision to lay off a large number of probationary staff without any notice. Petroleum minister Murli Deora expressed anguish over the manner and the timing (festival season) of the layoffs.

“I appeal to Goyal (Jet Airways chairman Naresh Goyal) not to retrench people and try to find some solution. This is not the right time to retrench people, particularly before Diwali,” Mr Deora said. It is learnt Mr Deora had recently helped Jet get a 60-day credit from IOC to make payments for the fuel purchased from the state-run oil firm.

But Jet had defaulted on payment of Rs 259 crore on bills raised more than two-and-half months back. Jet’s current outstanding is Rs 859 crore that includes the defaulted amount. Jet buys aviation turbine fuel (ATF) worth Rs 330 crore every month from domestic oil companies.

Concerned about the deteriorating health of oil PSUs, the ministry has decided to act tough. “These are difficult times for them (airlines) and also for oil companies. IOC, BPCL and HPCL practically live on borrowings and so the airlines have to clear their outstanding (at the earliest),” petroleum secretary RS Pandey said.

He said ATF price is market determined and oil companies determine its price in a transparent manner. He said the taxation issue related to the fuel would be addressed by the finance ministry and the respective state governments. Civil aviation minister Praful Patel and airlines are demanding a cut in ATF tax rates.

ATF pricing was de-regulated in 2001 and since then it has been governed by fluctuations in the global oil market. Over the base price, customs duty of 5%, excise duty of 8%, 3% education cess and sales tax at an average of 25% is levied on the fuel. State taxes and excise duty amounts for about one-third of the price of ATF.

[Rotorhead1026]

Good businessman, or previously operated in an environment where competition was stifled, or non-existent? Either way, the old adage "make millions in aviation by starting with billions" is coming to fruition in India.

I said good businessmen, not great businessmen ;) . At any rate, Mallya can certainly sell beer - and perhaps should have stuck to what he knows! Neither Mallya or Goyal is a genius at PR, apparently. Now everytime my transport is late I'm going to wonder if I still have a job. :{

Good comment on "billions into millions". :)

[Pushpak]

The Indian aviation crisis was the writing on the wall. I am no expert, but if one just goes back in time, when Air India and Indian airlines had the monopoly in the domestic sector. It was cheaper to fly to the neighboring countries than flying within India. Salaries were not that great, fuel was cheap and fares were beyond common man’s reach, flights were full, yet they never made profit or paid bonuses. Being the national carrier they had state obligation too.

Now fast forward,there was brand new equipment with brand new young crew. Fuel prices I need not talk about and on top one has to hold, thus burning additional fuel and adding more engine and airframe hours. Salaries are quite comparable to the rest of the world and travelling by air is affordable, airport taxes are high.
So to summarize the cost has gone up, but the question is how come the smart executive’s politicians and bureaucrats did not see all this coming.
They are who, run airlines into the ground from their offices and I hope they disappear from the face of this earth like what will happen to all those greedy financial types who are lining their pockets with bonuses and commissions, not having produced goodness or benefits for the population at large.
Also those who implement the security rules and policies at airport to justify higher airport and facility fees, Disappear too
More people they employ, more they can justify their pay and bonuses too.

Now expats versus the locals, Expats are there because they are needed and along they bring in vast experience like our own senior colleagues, in time the new young blood will be there too. Flying now is not all about company polices/procedures, stick and rudder its how you manage the whole show…crm skills, passing on knowledge etc etc.. so please stop getting at each other.

Hope the dust settles down and we see happy times ahead…till then
I am off to flying my little pushpak, climb, cruises and descend all at 42mph. Too slow will stall and too fast..high speed stall. OFF AND BACK…CONTACT.

[Holycow]

So that is a surprising turn-around - looks like Naresh Goyal re-calculated his balance sheet and realized how urgently he needs those 1900 people :D
And Vijay Mallya will soon personally ask all the expat A330/340 captains to ignore the letters, because he was also mystified by his top managers ?
And today I had suddenly a full-house on all the sectors (joking), because state govt. desided, everything is just so nice again !
I enjoy watching this airline theater, India can never be boring :O

kingfisher320 - you need to get rid of those piggy thoughts, or you will suffer a lot in your life

[viktor inox]

The petroleum ministry has asked aviation firms including Jet Airways, Kingfisher and Air India to clear their outstanding fuel bills of o ver Rs 900 crore, which they owe to the state-run oil companies.


What is cause and effect here? Perhaps these carriers are defaulting precisely because these are state-run companies. They would probably not get away with this if private aviation fuel suppliers were involved.

[getsetgo]

Dear navrekar
As the number of foreign pilots decrease, this will affect Indian pilots with FATA.
Few Indian pilots will be flying among many other Indian pilots with Indian license so these few will come under scanner.
( simple for you to understand last post)
FATA window may not open for special category pilots.
Companies are hoping extension of FATA all the time, it may not happen.
Any way if you see companies have been flying on hope.
Aviation & airplanes don’t fly on hope.
Your company has got lots of Expats,and your experience with hiring, I think you are the best person to write the circumstances for issue/granting of FATA by DGCA. AS PER DGCA BOOK.

[getsetgo]

Jet-Kingfisher tie-up good for both carriers, says Airbus
17 Oct, 2008, 1503 hrs IST, AGENCIES

Jet-Kingfisher tie-up good for both carriers, says Airbus- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Transportation/Airlines__Aviation/Jet-Kingfisher_tie-up_good_for_both_carriers_says_Airbus/articleshow/3608311.cms)

wish these companies concentrate on Aviation & flying.
politics till now.
Airbus didnot see more than alliance.

[Nevrekar]

:confused:I have a hard time understanding what you are trying to say. It's not that airlines like Spicejet are actively only seeking expat Capts. They would much rather be 100% Indian. It is pure circumstance. They just don't have enough Indian Capts. As F/O's get their ALTP and the hours needed for command (2500) they are given the highest priority for command provided they meet the standards required. Some make it and some have to try again.
No different than any other airline in the world. Spicejet has around 60 plus expat(foreign national) Capt's all on FATA. There are few Indian Capts here flying on FATA. I would say no more than 2-4 at the most. They are all taking their exams and so the Indian Capts will be 100% on Indian licenses in 6-12 months. The only Capts left on FATA will be expats like me. Their FATA renewal will be per DGCA rules and regulations. My understanding per the new ruling is that it is 3 years or 2010 whichever comes first. When 2010 rolls around it all depends on staffing. If airlines like have enough Indian Capts by that time then expats will not be required to stay. If by 2010 they don't have enough Capts then they will probably request DGCA for case by case extensions, and that's what I meant. They also have to show that they are making an effort to upgrade local pilots. Some military pilots have joined us and have their ALTP and hours. They will be given 500 hrs as F/O and then considered for command. To replace the 60 plus expat Capts at Spicejet, they will have to give command to about 2-3 guys a month. They just don't have the guys right now. They might be able to come up with 1 a month if that. Plus don't forget many Indian Capts are also looking to leave India for other opportunities. So if a few Indians leave as well then the shortage will be even more significant. This model applies not just to Spicejet but also to Kingfisher, JetAirways and others.

[NGFellow]

Sounds like the Indian Mafia is at work. It's amazing how Jet can announce layoffs of over 1,900 employees and within 48 hrs make it all go away. The movie Godfather where someone made them an offer they couldn't refuse! (remember the horse in the bed scene?) All of a sudden the CEO has mental disturbances, amnesia, does not know about day to day operations etc etc. Folks also have this expectation that because I took out a loan, bought a car, house whatever, the airline is now responsible for keeping me on the payroll.

[sunny441]

Since when do people like Mallya and Goyal ( peeps with money!) care about the working class- even shed a tear and have insomnia?? Godfather horse scene sounds about right.. or maybe it was Thackeray...

[arka]

:ugh:Hi folks!Yes it is try!Kingfisher is in deep sheet!Most of the pilots from wide body 340 and 330 are fired!I dont know which way Jet was did that but in Kingfisher they did that in very,very bad maner!!Avoid Kingfisher!!Expats be specialy!!

[captplaystation]

Don't suppose it will stop them competing in the Chinese GP, with the biggest motorhome in the paddock ( Yes bigger than Ferrari or McLaren) and with the biggest yacht in the harbour seen at the Valencia GP.
Bit like Stoddard in European / Minardi days. Plenty of money to run an F1 team but f@ck the employees of their respective airlines.
As Niki Lauda proves, the F1 racing mentality is not good news when they get involved in airlines ( certainly for employees) :=

[sunny441]

all this is shameful. as soon as the dust settles and this incident is forgotten - those unfortunate 1900 employees will be sacked for sure. this time - they will hopefully get a few weeks notice and it will be done the right way!

[getsetgo]

all a show....

drama before cutting salaries across the board.........................

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Now, this is an interesting article... It's not related to Kingfisher but Dr. Vijay Mallya.... It seems that he has a bit of financial crunch...

Whyte & Mackay, the Scotch whisky group, is to be sold off by its parent group, Bangalore-based United Spirits.

United Spirits, a division of Vijay Mallya’s United Breweries, paid £595m for the Glasgow-based distiller at the peak of the market in May 2007.
He is also considering this and other asset and equity stake sales as he struggles to deleverage United Breweries’ tattered balance sheet..

Mallya would be lucky to raise more than £200m from a sale of Whyte & Mackay. This is because of the paucity of potential buyers, the absence of private equity bidders and because the price of bulk Scotch is expected to fall by 15%-20% in the next few years.


Whyte & Mackay is to be put up for sale - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5864325.ece)

[Manosh]

During this years many King Fisher planes were smashed for many reason, (inexperience pilots, engineers mistakes, poor maintenance. With a very low and poor maintenance quality, and many aircraft on ground, any airline will get in bankruptcy soon or later. How much money will them self allow to lost ? For many years expat engineer did support Aideccan, Deccan Aviation, Jet Airways, Indian Airlines, Paramount, so why do King Fisher rejected Expat. Engineers?
I don think the main reason could be they are caring about native jobless persons, (and I would understand) because they are recruiting Expat pilots.
So this is a big question they should ask if King Fisher wants to improve maintenance status aircraft.