BA rocked as 500 top bosses quit

[BlueRay]

500 British Airways senior managers quit. Board member quoted as stating 'we are panicking'.

No doubt BA is in serious crisis, is this mass resignation a precursor to the content of the Despatches documentary 'The trouble with British Airways' (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/the+trouble+with+british+airways/2490477)scheduled to air this Monday at 8pm on Channel 4.The programme is investigating the demise of British Airways.

Seems they are coming in for more and more critcism from all quarters, with calls from Scottish MPs for BA to be renamed London Airways (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7660797.stm)

BA rocked as 500 top bosses quit (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/10/10/ba-rocked-as-500-top-bosses-quit-115875-20790247/)

[wobble2plank]

Blue Ray,

Spin and boll0cks as always, 450 out of 1400 elected to take voluntary redundancy. Oddly enough only those that could realistically spared were sent letters.

No panic yet, just cost savings.

And scotland is grumpy over the closure of the Glasgow base.

[Artificial Horizon]

How exactly has BA been rocked by this????? If you care to remember about one month ago BA asked 1500 managers to take voluntary severance packages or face compulsary redundancies. It was announced yesterday internally that 500 managers had volunteered and after a review ALL applications for voluntary redundancy were execpted, the said managers will be leaving the company at the end of the year. I fail to see how this can be construed as you are making out that 500 managers resigned out of the 'blue'.:=:\ And as for that tw*t Salmond up there in Scotland, how does the closure of a GLA base consitute a pull out from Scotland, all of the flights remain unchanged, besides it has been a long time since BA was a national airline, it is now a private company who can fly to and from where it so wishes. On the other hand though with the government nationalising every other private business under the sun at the moment perhaps the good old days of a huge loss making national airline that has aircraft based in every regional centre is not far away again, perhaps a model something like Alitalia:}

[hunterboy]

Now all we need to do is to encourage the other 10000 deadweights to leave and we'll be down to our fighting weight.

[Thunderbug]

Mirror: Rule No1. "Don't let facts get in way of a good story"

BA asked for volunteers to take redundancy and to their credit 450 decided to do just that and BA accepted their applications. A surprise to no one.


What is going on. Times are tough enough without this sort of media BS. I see "Dispatches" are going for another hatchett job on BA next week. Are they trying to demonstrate the fabled power of the media in talking down a blue chip company. :ugh:

T'bug

[False Capture]

Willie Walsh said:We are pleased with the take up for the scheme. The number is in line with our expectations and means we can deliver on our commitment to reduce our management headcount.

Doesn't sound like BA are rocked or that the board are panicking.:ugh:

[A4]

How many?!!! They asked for 1500 voluntary redundancies :eek:

Can someone please post how many managers there are in BA and what's the manager per aircraft ratio?

I am staggered - I knew there were a lot - but if you can lose 1500.........

A4

[wobble2plank]

I also think it's a touch rich coming from Alex 'I'm on the get as much cash from Westminster gravy train' Salmon to criticise any company. He wants Scottish independence? Let every company pull out of Scotland and then have to re-apply under Open Skies :-)

The Glasgow base has been closed as a cost measure after being considered for the last 3 years. I comes as absolutely no surprise and all the crew will be offered transfers and a pick of fleets. Add to that the commuting opportunities, and no reduction in services to Scotland and you can live where you want and commute to work.

Once BA gets rid of the rest of the 'manage coffee flow' dead heads in Water World they will be far better streamlined than this time last year.

p.s. I seem to remember BA running at about 160/airframe, Iberia 120/airframe and American at about 90/airframe. Still lots to trim :E

Ooops, sorry that's total personnel/airframe.

[BAladdy]

Working for BA and having already been told about the departure of some of our managers.......... Can't say I was exactly rocked ...... It's more a case of don't let the door hit you on the bum as you leave .........

Well out of curiousity just thought would click the link and see who is reporting this and low and be hold it is the newspaper known around the world for it's journalistic accuracy..............The Mirror.............. :ugh::ugh:


Well I suppose it makes a change from the Mail.

[Kiteflier]

This is potentially more damagaing than it looks. All managers were asked if they wished voluntary redunacy, noone would be rejected as been the case before. 450 have elected to take this. This is most likely to be the best 450 who will have little difficulty getting another job. In other words the best managers are leaving and the rest are staying to run the company. As a shareholder I find this deeply disturbing. WW has effectively got rid of all the managers that were ready to catch him when he falls back down to earth and clearly he doesn't care. What's next?? Like most other shares BA's are in freefall and although something needs to be done to bolster confidence mine has now completely gone. BA will now try to merge with as many other carriers as it can in an attempt to increase market share and reduce costs. These are always harder to achieve than it looks and really BA could end up being the junior partner if things continue to go in the direction they seem to be going!!

[Human Factor]

This is most likely to be the best 450 who will have little difficulty getting another job. In other words the best managers are leaving and the rest are staying to run the company.

This is always a risk, however given the current economic climate I wouldn't rate their chances of immediate employment elsewhere too highly.

Like most other shares BA's are in freefall...

I would be more concerned if it was only BA's shares in freefall.;)

[wobble2plank]

Kiteflier,

The redundancy notices were targeted.

You can, indeed, be the best manager in the 'primp statistics to fit the ego' department but, lets face it, no one will really miss you.

It is time to streamline and excess management is a good place to start.

Add to the fact that when you start going after other departments it gives WW the moral ( :mad: ) high ground as he can claim to have weeded his patch already!

Standby :sad:

[A4]

So BA is about 160 staff / airframe. I know I'm not comparing eggs with eggs but easyJet must be about 40ish per airframe. 45 million pax this year, figures for September +22%. BA -5%......... premium traffic is going to disappear in this financial climate.....:ouch:

All airlines face a hideous 2009 - but I cannot see how BA can continue to operate with such a heavy management structure. What do they all do??

I don't want this post to sound conceited...... but I am still amazed at the size "da management" in BA. Do BA still have their own handling - does that account for considerably higher staff/airframe ratio?

A4

[BAladdy]

Totally agree this mass weed out of management poisitions is well over due. Infact suprised they had not done it before now......

Mind you that's our WW leave everything till the last minute.

[wobble2plank]

BA still carries alot of outdated 'personnel' baggage from the heavily militant, unionised 1970's including alot of outdated work practices.

Compare BA to Virgin/AA/Iberia etc on a pilot to LH/SH airframe basis and they all come up roughly the same. Pilots have always been hunted and trimmed by management as they are the most expensive PAYE employee.

BA is streamlined from a pilotage perspective however they are very fat in other departments (no pun intended!).

Easyjet/Ryanair out source a vast amount of their handling/cleaning etc. BA don't. Also comparing SH to LH is a non starter as the requirements are totally different.

Painful days to come but that applies to the industry not just BA.

[V12]

As an outsider one just wonders what 450 managers did for 250 days a year that no one will notice is no longer done when they don't turn up to do it any more in the future?

There are some really great companies that rule their sector on 450 employees...

[silverstreak]

Its a shame - NOT!

BA have had this comming. T5 isnt the 'saviour' of BA. Putting all their little cream eggs in one basket... Now the heats on and they are all melting.

No sympathy for Birdseed at all.

[twostroke]

This is most likely to be the best 450 who will have little difficulty getting another job.
Indeed, as they say, those with the 'get up and go', get up and go

[wobble2plank]

Silverstreak,

Well balanced with chips on both shoulders still.

If BA goes it will take CitiFlyer with it. So laugh it up. Oddly enough many of the pilots working LH/SH in 'Birdseed' are still approaching/hitting the CAA hours limitation so it's difficult to see where the 'pampered' lifestyle comes from.

It's ironic that many pilots rostered hours on SH are in excess of Easyjet. EJ do more sectors admittedly but hours wise BA are squeezing everything they can out of the pilot force!

[gatwick ghost]

Lets get a few facts clear -

All BA Managers (with the exception of Pilots in management roles) were sent the letter offering the voluntary redundancy package. The letters were not targetted at all.

The proportion of managers who have agreed to volunteer for severance obviously varies from department to department. In some areas it is the complete management team.

The new interim management stucture will be announced next week with the remaining managers slotting into roles they are suitable for. If there are roles not filled, the company will be looking outside for candidates.

Don't compare BA with EZY. As stated above longhaul network airlines do require more management than shorthaul point to point. Also some airlines describe managers in a different way so it can be difficult to compare airlines' management to aircraft ratios without looking carefully at the proportions of insourcing/outsourcing and whether a carrier is primarily domestic or international. While BA is clearly top heavy in management, straight comparison is difficult.

[wiggy]

I'm not sure wether the original poster works for the Mirror and is advertising his story, or works for the Ch 4 and is hyping Dispatches...

Company asks for some grades to apply for voluntary redundancy, 450 apply...big deal... "rocked", I don't think so.

"Panicking", well a BA Board member might well be but not over the future of BA, more likely over their position on the Board.

I think everyone in aviation related jobs should be rightly concerned about the future, but BA isn't "rocked" and it sure as heck isn't "panicking".

[ETOPS]

many of the pilots working LH/SH in 'Birdseed' are still approaching/hitting the CAA hours limitation

That's me. Only able to acheive 2 trips ( ie 4 sectors) in November due to 900 hour limit...........:ok:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

I think the point is that if you can spare 500 managers and still operate to the same standard- which BA will- you plainly had at least 500 "managers" that had no bloody business at all being there in the first place.

[keel beam]

Rocked? No way!

In times of downturn BA has NEVER wielded the axe enough to clear the dead wood.

Think of all those jobs with fancy names (Multi worded Job title) How many are really and truly needed?

Talking to many people in different areas, the "work face" workers have been taking hits in jobs and terms and conditions for years.

How big does the "support team" need to be?

A cull at the top is fine, the company keeps talking about "Back to Basics" in service, but it also needs to go back to basics in what is needed to run the airline? (I am probably talking myself out of a job here! :{)

That is my tuppence worth!

[Fargoo]

I think the point is that if you can spare 500 managers and still operate to the same standard- which BA will- you plainly had at least 500 "managers" that had no bloody business at all being there in the first place.

Or it could be that coming towards the end of T5 moves, outsourcing of many ground handling departments, regional bases, Engineering departments etc.. means less managers are needed.
Perhaps some on here really are unaware of what is really going on at BA.

Just because staff are surplus now when times are hard doesn't mean they weren't valuable assets that helped us survive and make massive profits in the past.

Manager or non-manager there is good and bad in all of them. I just hope the ones who are going are not the ones we really need to stay :ugh:

[ExSp33db1rd]

Let's hope one to go is that renegade Staff Travel manager who supported - probably initiated - the disgraceful treatment of the older pensioners by arbitrarily ,and retrospectively, cutting off their rebate travel at the end of their lives - for which they pay something don't forget, even if only tax towards the crazy Carbon Credit tax per aircraft nonsense, and every penny counts these days - maybe that manager will be replaced with someone a little more honorably disposed to those who forged the once proud airline that they are now privileged to screw up.

[acmi48]

if 500 managers leave but the functions still exist,then 500 supervisors will someday become 500 managers at a lower rate.

nothing new here..

[d71146]

Very True,Very True.

[FlexibleResponse]

500 managers quit...no change on operations, but profits improved.

500 pilots quit...?

[Fil]

500 Pilots quit...?

Then BIG change to the operation, ergo profits must fall due reduced profit potentialdue reduced routes.

[Caudillo]

It's ironic that many pilots rostered hours on SH are in excess of Easyjet.

Never knew that - have you gotten an exemption to go beyond the CAP371 targets? How much above the Easyjet 100/month 900/year are you guys running at?

[Carnage Matey!]

Flown with a couple of ex EJ pilots who've recently joined BA who weren't doing 900 hours per year in their previous company. Not everybodys doing 900 hours in BA either, but I don't think one could say either group was clearly working harder than the other.

[A4]

Am I correct in thinking that if you're on the minibus fleet out of LHR or 733 out of LGW then you spend a lot of time away night stopping around Europe?

A4

[Re-Heat]

BA running at about 160/airframe, Iberia 120/airframe and American at about 90/airframe.
This whole thread is a load of spin and tosh. The above, for example, is meaningless if BA operates services inhouse at a lower cost than an outsourcer - thereby raising the headcount figure, but operating more efficiently.

All that is certain is that most contributors here either know nothing, or work for the Daily Mail / Despatches.

Am I correct in thinking that if you're on the minibus fleet out of LHR or 733 out of LGW then you spend a lot of time away night stopping around Europe?
Tours are a common and known part of the model - totally different from EJ, and very clear to incoming applicants to the business. What is your point?

[BOAC]

meaningless if BA operates services inhouse at a lower cost than an outsourcer - thereby raising the headcount figure, but operating more efficiently. - unfortunately a good theory but does not work in practice when each department is made a self-budgeting 'profit centre' and thus charges 'users' (other departments) an above market rate to cover the high running costs of an overstaffed outfit. This happened at LGW with MT who were charging 6-7 times the commercial rate for each crew transport journey. Could we get it changed? No. Too many 'industrial issues'.

Of course the money 'circulates' inside BA but all departmental budgeting/accounting costs money/time/manpower to process so it is not cost neutral as it appears. Again - it is much nicer to have your own people doing your own engineering/dispatch/check-in etc but it does cost more.

[Human Factor]

Never knew that - have you gotten an exemption to go beyond the CAP371 targets?

BA don't operate using CAP371. They have their own approved Scheme with some differences (for example, the number of earlies which can be worked in a row is greater than CAP371). The 100hr/month and 900hr/year limits are the same though. On longhaul, many of the guys are on restricted rosters as a result of hitting the 900 hour limit. On shorthaul, it's more difficult to hit the 900hr limit but at both bases, a running total of greater than 800 hours is common. The restrictions on shorthaul tend to be duty related rather than hours related.

That's not to say the company haven't applied for exemptions in the past. There was a request a couple of years ago for 100hr/month for twelve months and the CAA objected. No doubt we will see them trying to push of LH bunk time to be discounted from the total again. Can't see that happening in a hurry either.

[Diesel_10]

The term manager when applied to BA is anyone that they have identified as not entitled to overtime. You work past your 37.5 hours for free on the promise of a fat bonus at year end (well July anyway). Aircraft maintenance supervisors are 'management grade', quality engineers, tech engineers etc etc - all managers. So it doesn't surprise me, that there are 1500 that have at some point, or are at the moment, in charge of a team (sometimes a team of one!) who have been offered the dosh to go. Life will go on, safety won't be compromised, we'll just do things differently and bin anything that doesn't add value.

Well I won't be, cos I'm off too!!!:):):)

[Conan The Barber]

All that is certain is that most contributors here either know nothing, or work for the Daily Mail / Despatches.

Usually the way used to infer that one knows more, without actually demonstrating it. I believe the technical term is 'One down, Two up'.

[A4]

Calm down reheat..... it's only a discussion. I think the manager/airframe ratio is a good indicator. For years people have been saying BA is top heavy...but it wasn't until this morning that I found out that BA could happily just lose 1,500 and carry on! I think you have to admit that's alarming.

As for the SH European tours..... it was just a question. No criticism, not trying to make "a point". :confused:

Chill out.

A4

[Swedish Steve]

All managers were asked if they wished voluntary redunacy,

Well I am a BA Manager, and no-one asked me to go.
Maybe because

Again - it is much nicer to have your own people doing your own engineering/dispatch/check-in etc but it does cost more.

We do engineering for BA at about half the cost of getting the local airline to do it.

You work past your 37.5 hours for free on the promise of a fat bonus at year end

Yes this years was nice (before tax) but it doesn't happen very often nowadays. we are flexible, work odd shifts, come in on our days off when an aircraft breaks down, and then work to fix it with no CAP371 to tell us to go home after 18 hours!, and only DOIL to try and take sometime in the future. But their is never anyone available to come over and do your job when you want to.

[BlueRay]

Now just to dispell any rumours that certain people are working for media orgaisations; Wall Street Journal

British Airways at heart of airline storm (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/british-airways-shares-lose-half/story.aspx?guid=%7BF55ABFDD-588D-4EDB-A117-2D24A55467FB%7D)

Article states that BA has lost 50% of share value in under a month and that BA just seems to generate a lot of negative news

I'd say most of it brought on by it's own acts and omissions. This is probably breaking point at British Airways, IMHO.

Those posters who are amazed that BA can lose 1500 managers should be aware that when Willie Walsh arrived he immediately implemented a blanket 1/3 cut of management positions across the airline. The culmination of that process was March 2008.

Willie is at it again, these are desperate times at British Airways.

[Carnage Matey!]

This is probably breaking point at British Airways, IMHO

Of course YHO is worth Jack as the only thing you do on this forum is post sensationalist anti-BA stories which inevitably fall over at the merest whiff of scrutiny. You'll be telling us next the ramp in the oil price and the global credit crunch are all BAs fault too. That is, of course, what has caused the share price of most airlines to collapse.

[BlueRay]

BA press dept have finally got round to releasing something on the numbers going, BA says 450 managers to leave (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/10102008/399/ba-says-450-managers-leave.html)

The article confirms my earlier statement about Willie's first dictate to remove 1/3 of managers. It states;


One of the first big cost-cutting moves taken by Mr Walsh after becoming BA chief executive in autumn 2005 was to axe more than a third of the airline's managers, with the loss of 597 positions. The number of senior managers was halved


Now maths not being my strong point, how can I reduce my numbers o managers by 1/3 (597) meaning a total of about 1800 managers, then 3 yrs later reduce this same population of mangers by 1500. (the whole original manager population)

I smell a very stinking 'spin' from British Airways........usual BA guff for the city to save their hide. But guess what we don't buy it anymore, shares sliding as I type, down 10% to £1.12

[Carnage Matey!]

Facts don't appear to be your strong point either. The two reduction programs have been targeted at different tiers of management. Subtleties like that are beyond your analytical capability. Also the information has been in the public domain for at least 24 hours so you're late to the party again.

[Golden Ticket]

Over the last couple of days I'd put Blueray and 411a on my ignore list but their far too entertaining to ignore. They stir the **** up or generate it I'm not sure which.

This is a no win and posts are just reflecting that. If BA had not shed some staff they'd have been accused of not reacting to the current market situation and would be in trouble. If they do then they're considered to be on the back foot and the fat lady must be singing.

They're just a company trying it's best to keep it's head above water during these interesting times. Along with every other company. Just can't see £500billion coming from anyware to shore up this industry.

[sevenforeseven]

You poor poor BA people. What are you going to do now?:{

[kotakota]

Oh please , sevenforeseven , your hatred of all things BA should at least be qualified with a reason . If its the arcane recruiting system that has hurt you , I might understand , but there are an awful lot of very nice people in BA .
Most of them do not have a clue about other airlines / life on the 'outside' etc , but that is not necessarily a crime . I disliked BA for many years , and was not happy when they took over my airline and dispensed with my services because of where I was based . However , a court case helped me get my job back , which meant starting at the bottom etc , but I met many fine kind people along the way , got a command very quickly and enjoyed a few great years flying with some very fine people ( always a few bad apples like any airline ) before having to leave at 55 just as I was getting into it. There are a few 'Nigels' but most are not . My friends love to try and wind me up with that moniker , but it does not .
I always thought BA had far too many managers , but I could never wish redundancy / unemployment on anyone . How you can bring yourself to wish unhappiness on all people BA is vexing - care to explain ?

[stormin norman]

sevenforeseven

Probally live happily ever after on a nice well earned pension.What will you do ?

[wobble2plank]

From Reuters:
Low-cost airline easyJet followed arch-rival Ryanair by reporting a 20 percent rise in September passenger volumes, but shares fell across the sector amid growing concerns about the economy.

The company also said in a statement on Monday its load factor -- a measure of how well it fills planes -- improved versus a year earlier to 86.9 percent, while year-to-date passenger growth was up 17.3 percent.

The performance echoed an equally positive result from Ryanair, which said on Friday its September passenger numbers grew 20 percent.

However, both airlines have warned of slowing consumer demand over the winter months.

Shares in British Airways were hit hardest after its traffic numbers showed on Friday that more expensive flying is suffering most, with premium class travel down 8.6 percent in September and passenger numbers down 4.8 percent overall.

"The outlook is uncertain -- consumer weakness is going to be a factor for some time," said Douglas McNeill, transport analyst at Blue Oar.

EasyJet shares were down 3.3 percent at 315 pence by 9:30 a.m. British time, valuing it at 1.3 billion pounds. The shares are down by around 46 percent for the year so far as airlines battle the twin threat of rising fuel costs and impending recession.

British Airways was off 8.5 percent at 150 pence, valuing the flagship carrier at 1.7 billion pounds, while Ryanair was down about 6 percent.

Collins Stewart analyst Andrew Fitchie said in a note that BA and the budget airlines were operating opposite models -- with the former pushing up prices at the expense of volume and the latter keeping fares low -- helping to explain the sharp contrast in September performance.

Everybody is feeling the pain at the moment. Oddly enough with the majority of companies losing half their share value over this turbulent period.

But, of course, big bad BA looks better in the tabloid shock-horror headlines than Easy Jet or Ryanair.

Nowt we can do about except what cost cutting we can. The future is far from certain but I, personally, wish no pilot ill or to be out of a job irrespective of their company. It is a nasty position to be in at the start of a global recession and I have seen it first hand from friends of mine at XL.

This is one time when we all need the management to get their collective heads out of their ar$es and start effective management. Not exactly holding my breath though.

[Human Factor]

...effective management...

:rolleyes:

[HZ123]

At least 500 managers have every Friday off here @ Waterside. Even at Cranebank there was a complete lack of them. We would not miss 500 + every day because that is probably a daily figure for such activities as away, surgically positioned to a First seat somewhere in the world, annual leave, working from home or merely not coming in as there is nowhere to park the company Honda or at a meeting re cutbacks.

[nose door]

500 managers quit.....
but now you have 500 senior managers.....on bigger bonus'.......bad luck...

[Dan Air 87]

With things the way they are, why on earth should anyone volunteer to leave BA? Its far better being warm inside BA than outside in the dreadful climate. I know things are not easy with BA (based on what I have read here today) but to leave voluntarily? Baffles me but what do I know??

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I remember the halcyon days of reading the "Friday Firelighter" and seeing adverts for " Bread Rolls Europe " in the jobs section, on an MG grade of course....

I also wonder if any of the managers responsible for the pension disaster have disappeared as well, 1.8 billion pound deficit, 1.3 billion pound company......

[Tandemrotor]

I'm not far from being quite concerned!

However, I don't think we need to worry too much, until Open Skies (the airline) is closed down. That will be significant.

Until then, we clearly have money to burn! :rolleyes:

[clipstone1]

well the comparison between EZY and BA staff numbers is totally pointless, immediately you look at the the cabin crew on an aircraft at any one time, EZY 3 (B737) or 4 (A319) so call it an average of 3.75

BA have almost 50% of the fleet being B763, B772 and B744 so that's about 8 12 and 15 per aircraft, so thats and average of 12.75 per aircraft at any one time, without taking into account the fact that longhaul ops require greater numbers of crew, even BA's remaining fleet is mostly larger aircraft than EZY fleet so again more crew required per unit.....

My "other half" is Longhaul crew for BA and had most of august off due to hitting 900 hours and even now is back to 880 ish....

also as well as BA undertaking less outsourcing than EZY, with a totally different product there will always be greater numbers of staff needed to process the on-board product, and that's just looking at eurofleet Y class product, the concentration must be even greater to ensure club and first products work along with lounges, executive club, full reservations teams with business pax wanting to change bookings all the time etc etc.....

so the overall comparison of staff per airframe is not a valid one.....

[ExSp33db1rd]

Probally live happily ever after on a nice well earned pension.What will you do ?


Stormin norman ... See what they've done to pensioners staff travel, retrospectively, secretly ( at the planning stage ) and with no regard to how it effects people in no position to fight back - tho' we're trying - so imagine what they will try to do to the pension funds if they get half a chance. We 'think' they're secure, but how secure ? Remember Maxwell. Never is a long time in Politics - and pension funds. Fingers crossed.

[Desk-pilot]

I must say there are some very ill informed views on this thread, and I speak as an ex-BA Manager who is now a pilot at a rival airline.

BA has for the whole of its history been a pioneer in aviation - first transatlantic jet service, first supersonic service, first flat bed in business class. It also developed in house the very best check-in system anywhere in the world, deployed self service kiosks en masse long before any other European airlines, pioneered lounges etc etc. It is and always has been one of the truly great airlines. This innovation takes manpower and brains in large numbers to stay one step ahead of the competition. It's harder to be the first airline to put flat beds in business class than it is to be the hundredth when seats etc are readily available off the shelf. This rich history, the diversity and quality of its service and its global reach means BA needs more Managers than an airline such as Easy of Ryan. A simple example is the fact that BA has a fully qualified sommelier choosing its wines, and yes I suppose he is a Manager. Quite clearly you don't need one of those if you're Ryanair and are flinging a bottle of Blue Nun at the proletariat!

I'm afraid I now work amongst the Blue Nun brigade at present too (though thankfully not Ryanair), but I hope one day to work again for BA because they are a quality operator, perhaps amongst the very last ones left in a world that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. God knows this profession has been devalued enough without attacking one of the few airlines left that still puts service not price at its core and believes in hiring the best talent and training and paying it well.

BA made £800 million last year, more profit than any other airline I know of in the world - partly because of the quality of its management and its ideas, its product innovation, its superb service. It's a great pity T5 was a shambles on opening day, but on projects of that magnitude problems always occur and by God have they got a world class terminal now.

The pilot professions would indeed be a better place if its future lay with more employers like BA.

Desk-pilot

[keel beam]

1.8 billion pound deficit, 1.3 billion pound company......



Let's not get too hasty here! The 1.8bn deficit is to do with commitments over the life of the scheme until the last "benifitor" dies.

Although a very large figure, long term investing should reduce this figure as the stock market rises in the future.

[silverstreak]

wobble2plank...

No, not chips on both shoulders, just smelling the coffee with my nose.

Pitty folk like you are so blinkered. Nevermind...

[wobble2plank]

No, not chips on both shoulders, just smelling the coffee with my nose.

Pitty folk like you are so blinkered. Nevermind...

Ha ha ha,

Never been blinkered in all my years inside and out of the airline industry, just aware that most of the contentious decisions are made by management not by the coal face workers who have to put up with them.

You obviously have a very wide tar brush to paint such a rosy picture.

Whilst I often wish the poor business decisions the managers make infest them with the fleas of a thousand camels I have no grudges against my fellow professional pilots in any company ...... unlike some.

[BlueRay]

wobble plank, agreed that this thread is not about the pilots at ba, it concerns those who pilot the business direction in this airline.

I also see that monday nights despatches programme has recieved 'pick of the night' in most of the papers.

I guess that pretty much ensures high viewer ratings.

[Runway vacated]

Ye Gods, Blueray, someone at BA must have run off with your wife or something. You have completely lost your judgement where BA are concerned.

I have been involved in documentaries over the last 15 years, both in front of and behind the camera. I have also been a pilot, both military and commercial, for the last 26. In that time I have realised (as I am sure, we all have) that documentaries are no longer "cinema verite", but are shot, and more importantly, edited, to meet a prescribed agenda.

Does anyone remember the series "Fighter Pilot", following a bunch of wannabe fast jet boys in the early 80s? The distortions of truth that were produced in the editing suite were disgraceful.

Since then, things have got worse.

The previous "Dispatches" hatchet-job in 2000 was a confection of half truths, distortions and entrapment. It was entirely the product of an embittered ex-employee who fancied herself as a journalist, and proved nothing except that, in any organisation as large and complex as BA, if you look hard enough for something, then you will find it.

Now, needless to say, I am in BA. I agree that there are many things that BA could do better (there is a quote that can be abused out of context for a start!), BUT, having seen many other operators, I recognise that, overall we do a pretty good job. That there is room for cost saving is a truth so obvious that only a moron would feel it needs repeating. BA have got things wrong in the last year (we hung on too long in T4, and cocked up the opening of T5) and we have been held to account for these. And we have apologised.

But in the final analysis BA is tipped by Paddy Power to be one of the few airlines to survive the current economic meltdown (we have >100 - 1 odds of failing). It doesn't matter which way you slice it, that is not the product of incompetent management. And I can tell you that, from the inside, this is not an airline in crisis.

So television will once again exploit its power to make the specific (one persons comments) seem general, and the general (all airline shares are suffering) seem invisible.

Glad thats off my chest.

Now, Blueray, I have it on good authority that anger management can help overcome feelings of failure.........:ok:

[Capt H Peacock]

When was the last time you watched Channel 4?

[BlueRay]

Runway vacated, amusing.

Quite on the contrary, despatches has a long history of very competent and hard hitting exposures. Try looking on You tube for the Lancashire Police exposure.

A classic exposure by an undercover Police officer. A documentary where they exposed strong racism, sexism, even officers indulging in the odd Porn film while on night duty.

THe upshot, big change at Lancashire police..... I won't and don't need go further, it is not Despatches reputation in the spotlight, but that of British Airways.

It does appear that this documentary is getting a great deal of interest from BA, probationary PPruners arriving to comment drop. (no doubt BA PR dept, there are lots on here) Oh and BA have started running adverts on Channel 4, no doubt aiming to influence the cutting room floor....

So Runway clear, come back Tues, we can discuss the outcome. Oh incase your wondering, BA didn't steal my wife(worse luck) just my bags!:ugh:

[wobble2plank]

Quite on the contrary, Dispatches has a long history of very competent and hard hitting exposures.

And an equally long history of court action against its 'whistle blowing' tactics and filming antics.

Sadly, if you dig deep enough, at any company you will find cockroaches. BA is no different. The baggage shambles at T5 was a BAA debacle caused by software that hadn't been configured correctly, BA Management exacerbated the situation by arrogantly claiming that everything would work 110% from day one despite warnings from the work force. But then that doesn't make good gutter headlines does it.

[yamaha]

why don't you all just wait and see whats in the programme.
This anti any journo stuff is becoming a bit boring. Aviation like any other industry is fair game.

Rather than continuously slag em off sometimes in an incredibly pathetic childlike manner why not show them the errors of their ways.

You are all grown up here and should realise by now that newspapers, tv programmes, magazines need to be sold to keep people in jobs and so over dramatising is the norm. We all know that and joe public knows that.

I fail to see the issue.

[BlueRay]

Yamaha, I second your post. The chorus of the BA PR dept on these boards really does get awful tiresome. Then I guess that's the plan.

For those who haven't caught the trailer for Mondays (13/10/08) Despatches documentary its now up on YOUTUBE.

YouTube - Dispatches British Airways advert (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ixqhlmHeVmE)

Very neat little trailer.

[Runway vacated]

Well if there is one thing I had never expected it was to be accused of being in the BA PR department! As insults go, Blueray, that is as low as you can get. If you must know I am an FO on the B777, and I have been a regular on pprune since 1996, when I was with CX.

Now, back to the topic in question.

Like everyone else, I have no idea what allegations are in the Dispatches (please note the spelling, Blueray) program. All I CAN say is that:

A.) Based on their last "expose" concerning an airline, their relationship with the truth was "arms length" at best. On the basis of past experience, then, I can expect a strong emphasis on the sensational with scant attention paid to any facts that don't corroborate the "scandal". It won't be difficult to find disgruntled passengers who have suffered at the hands of BA, and I have very sympathy with them (I too have lost bags with them), but is this unique to BA?

B.) Contrary to the assertions in the tabloid press (another part of the fourth estate that has a far from untarnished reputation for honesty) this is not an airline in crisis. Action needs to be taken, and is being taken, to prevent it BECOMING a crisis, but the share price reflects the general lack of confidence investors have in ANY business at the moment, and is not a reflection on BA per se.

So that's my pen'orth. I ceratinly look forward to tuesday when, doubtless the assertions contained in the program will be regurgitated in full on this forum. So may have some merit, but on past form from C4, I am not holding my breath....;)

[wobble2plank]

I wonder then, in the interests of balanced investigative journalism, if they will include Virgin Atlantic in their 'investigation' into price fixing. As VA were as guilty as BA supposedly were, price fixing and colluding whilst 3 major American carriers were merrily operating under bankruptcy protection. Level competitive playing field???

But, as VA went running to teacher to tell what was going on behind the bike sheds, they come up smelling of roses. BA got the cane.

Many of the 'Sun' reading populous still believe BA to be a nationalised company along with British Rail and the Post Office.

Oh well, the old adage of 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story springs to mind'. The absolute irony of this is that the wasteful, arrogant managers that got the company into this PR mess have either been sacked or made redundant! Coming to an airline near you soon maybe?

[Basil]

Police officer. A documentary where they exposed strong racism,
Do you mean the bit where the Paki Polis, in his first year, falsely accused a member of the public of racist behaviour??

[HZ123]

Runway vacated; If you have been a threader since 1996 how come you are shown as having 2 posts. You have been very quite in the past. That said you will win no discussions with some of those that discredit BA et al most of the time.

[overstress]

On the HKG I've just done, which was stuffed to the gunwales in all classes, the only crisis was that the IFE worked in broadcast mode.

The only rocking was the wings in light turbulence.

Judging by the quality of this and so many other threads about BA i shall add:

"The above posting contains technical terms which the ignorant may not understand" :rolleyes:

[Runway vacated]

HZ123,

I used to be known as Veewun, but that moniker disappeared several years ago when the website was re-designed. Since then I have been an occasional lurker, but to be honest the generally infantile and ignorant level of discussion has been a pretty good incentive to stay away. This thread has confirmed my opinion!

But please, don't let me hijack the thread by trying to establish my credentials. Lets get on with the business of expressing personal prejudice and irrational dislike in an ungrammatical and illiterate manner. Trashing an airline that few have worked for but many think they know seems to be the "raison d'etre" for most posters on this site.

:ugh:

[yamaha]

From the trailers and advertising of this programme so far the main thrust seems to be terminal 5 and the amount of passenger bags lost.

The facts support both issues, terminal 5, you know that building which should have been the pride of the country in fact had the whole world laughing. BA do lose more bags than any other airline.

It has nothing to do with being state owned or not, or being a large company or not. It has to do with incredibly poor management. That is not a slight or attack on the aviation professionals here from BA, who I am sure behave professionally at all times not matter the circumstances.

History does tell us though that there is never smoke without fire and considering that these are very public events further investigation into more behind the scenes activities is justified in my opinion. If BA are not as bad as many of you seem to claim then they will come out of this smelling of roses.

If they are as bad in other areas as they have been with Terminal 5 and baggage, they deserve everything they get.

Company loyalty is one thing but many of you seem to be in love with BA. Love can be detrimental to ones eyesight. However the real fact is that we will all know more after the programme.

[Basil]

However the real fact is that we will all know more after the programme.
Clearly a master of irony ;)

Lets get on with the business of expressing personal prejudice and irrational dislike in an ungrammatical and illiterate manner.
Well, at least someone knows the raison d'être of 50% of Prune :}

[BlueRay]

Nice post Yamaha. Balanced and professional. Now i'd say you were a professional pilot. As for Runway clear, well if his comments and attitude are typical of BA pilots (who even I maintain respect for) then I'm glad I don't fly BA. Or maybe he's jut a new breed, as he/she said they started ot at Cathay.... enough said.

Asfor Basil, what a purile and racist post

Do you mean the bit where the Paki Polis, in his first year, falsely accused a member of the public of racist behaviour??

Now we know Basil flies with BA (or for)and we all know the racism that goes on in the BA pilot community. See;

A world of casual racism (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/a-world-of-casual-racism-exposed-at-ba-815842.html)

An the despatches programme I referred to centred on the undercover investigation conducted by a white, female WPC. It really was very good, look it up on youtube.

[Carnage Matey!]

I think it's about time the moderator put a padlock on this thread rather than let Blueray carry on with his hysterical rantings against BA in at attempt to drum up interest in his tawdry documentary. Although this contradiction did make me laugh:

of BA pilots (who even I maintain respect for)

we all know the racism that goes on in the BA pilot community

Good to know that you still respect racists Blue! Can't wait to see what exciting facts about T5 losing luggage Dispatches will 'disclose' about 7 months after they were on every news bulletin and on the front page of every paper.:zzz:

[LHR27C]

I don't quite get why so many people on here seem to so utterly despise BA. Maybe a lot of them are from the regions and have a chip on their shoulder that BA don't fly out of their airport so much. I can only conclude it is jealousy that BA by and large does very well and returns extremely high profits.

BA do lose more bags than any other airlineRubbish. They used to be the worst performing in Europe out of those that released their stats (i.e. people like VS didn't), thanks mainly to T4's and T1's aging baggage systems which have everything to do with BAA. They've now got much better baggage performance than AF, LH or KL, mainly thanks to T5 which has a very good baggage system. Punctuality is also very good now, to the extent that bmi have had to stop advertising themselves as LHR's most punctual airline, because BA have overtaken them.

If they are as bad in other areas as they have been with Terminal 5 and baggage, they deserve everything they get.Well, Terminal 5 is now widely accepted to be one of the best airport experiences in Europe, and the baggage is also better performing than CDG, AMS or FRA, so how that constitutes "bad" I'm not too sure.

It has to do with incredibly poor managementMmm, who just made over £800m profit and hit the 10% margin? Obviously very poor management there.

As for this Dispatches programme, if it goes anything by its reputation, I hope BA sue for damages, they have every right to.

[yamaha]

Mmm, who just made over £800m profit and hit the 10% margin? Obviously very poor management there.

If that is your only yardstick you have a sad view of life.

I for one am interested to know what they have been up to and how they have done it. If there is nothing to hide there is nothing to fear.

[Basil]

Asfor Basil, what a purile and racist post
Nope - just a 'fact' which was presented by your favourite TV prog.

[BlueRay]

what i love about there sites is as soon as anything slightly derogatory in relation to ba raises its horns, the usual suspects arrive.

Spouting the usual ba propaganda you'd likely find in their in house paper. I understand many ba employees call it pravda for its brain washing slant! Now it seems these usual suspects actually believe their own hype that ba is still up there with the best, rather than limping toward their inevitable demise.

I like to call the behaviour institutional delusion. Supported by institutional ostrich syndrome.

Watch the programme and decide.

[Carnage Matey!]

And what I love is that certain people who occasionally post on PPrune have such an irrational hatred of BA that no matter how many times their arguments are demolished by facts they still cling to them. In fact they'll cling to any conspiracy theory, uncorroborated claim or flight of fancy they can simply because they've nothing else to support them. Then when they can't support their claims any more they start insulting people. It seems that you are finding the going here rather tougher than you planned.

[yamaha]

This is very disappointing and I am beginning to think that Blueray is correct.

The programme hasn't even been broadcast yet so we don't even know if its bull or genuine.

IATA confirm however that BA is the worst for baggage. So far from where I am sitting the programme trailer at least seems pretty factual.

Can't we wait, watch and then debate.........please

[BlueRay]

Carnage,What I find really funny is the following;Taking The Drama Out Of A Crisis Conference - PR Week - Taking the drama out of a crisis conference (http://www.haymarketevents.com/conferenceDetail/286/taking-drama-crisis-conferenceWhen) a crisis hits, it is vital to ensure that your communications team are prepared to deal with it as effectively, and efficiently, as possibleSpeaker 3. BA on the Boeing 777 crash landing. Amazingly bullish that they think they can give advice on the subject now! Especially when that crisis is not yet over.The aim of the event:Gain the 360 degree view from brands, journalists and PR experts and equip your organisation with the relevant steps to make today’s crisis, yesterday’s newsYesterday's news! I had to laugh at that....

[Carnage Matey!]

You do seem rather up to speed on the latest developments in the world of PR conferences. Perhaps thats your area of specialisation? Would certainly explain your clumsy attempts to plug a tired old documentary which is certain to disappoint. Never mind, now this thread has been retired to the graveyard forum it'll wither and die.

[BlueRay]

I hope the only thing being retired to the graveyard has been Carnage Matey and his childish posts. A little more about what's in the despatches programme in the early morning papers. Citing amongst things maintenance safety problems at BA. Well with two inflight 777 cabin IFE/FIRE incidents in just 1 week I'd say despatches are hitting the nail squarely on the head. THis thread might be in a slow area of Prune but i think after tomorrow when the programme has aired, it might become a little more high profile. see for yourself at British Airways is under fire for having one of the worst records for cancelling flights | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076886/British-Airways-having-worst-records-cancelling-flights.html)

[Megaton]

I'll nail my colours to the mast straight away: I too work for BA but have no love nor loyalty to the company. I am also a former aircraft engineer with nearly 20 years experience and I have to say that I have been pretty impressed with BA Engineering in the 3 years I've been with the company.

Now if you want to extrapolate gross assumptions from a small and dubious sample of IFE problems then that's up to you but perhaps you'd grant that we wouldn't go to work day in, day out if we thought there were any genuine problems with BA's engineering.

BA has lots of faults, granted, but there's no need to invent problems where none exist. Lost bags may be a problem but that is not solely the remit of BA.

The truth, however, makes for boring television.

[HZ123]

If you are one of the largest airlines serving 630 destinations plus then it might not be a total surprise that they might be the one that cancels more flights than many smaller airlines. Likewise with millions of pax they may seem to lose many bags. I would be loath to put too much store in any Dispatches programme or anything the Mail says about anything.

[BlueRay]

Hamsted fist, you must be easily impressed. I don't know about BA engineering, though just checked out the website for BA engineering and thought it was very amateur in comparisom to Lufthansa Technic for example.. see for yourself at http://www.britishairways.com/travel/baengineeringhome/public/en_gbTHe thing is, I haven't seen the programme, nor have you. Lets wait till after and discuss further. I know you'll be watching.

[Carnage Matey!]

So now you're basing your assessment of BAs engineering standards by comparisons between BA and Lufthansas website? You really are getting desperate!

[Megaton]

Easily impressed? If you say so! I won't be parading my credentials here but you're missing the point. Do you really judge BA's engineering by their website? Do you think any BA engineers would have been involved with website design? Feel free to look back at my posts at you'll see I've been on here as long as most and there seems to be a small but steady stream of people out to knock BA whether the company deserves it or not. BA has enough real faults without inventing imaginary ones!

[BlueRay]

Ok, but what I'm trying ot illustrate, that even the window to the world of BA engineering is hardly professional. Look at the Lufthansa site, very professional and reflects well on them. I don;t think their engineers designed that either. If this programme delivers as promised two of your own engineering employees stating the truth, it'll be powerful stuff. I'm very much looking forward to watching it, early signs are promising. Certainly the high interest this thread has been receiving from the BA Public relations dept in the guise of Carnage Matey! is a strong indication (he's actually admitted so)

[yamaha]

Now its getting interesting. First of all BA are fine and brilliant but slowly and surely the truth? emerges.

BA has enough real faults without inventing imaginary ones!

BA is a big airline but by no means the biggest, yet it loses more bags
and cancels more flights:::FACT.

This programme could well be worth watching but Blueray I suspect you are from channel 4 and not a pilot.

[vulcan558xh]

As a virgin poster here and having had a couple of posts criticizing BA deleted by the moderator, I have followed this debate from the side lines. What strikes me however is the way that those posting here in support of BA, dismiss any views or thoughts that differ from their own vision of BA. Are they the postings of individuals who rightly or wrongly do believe BA is the mutts nuts or are they the postings of employees in the BA propaganda department.

[Megaton]

Blueray,

All your posts on this board are anti-BA. Now you clearly have a personal issue with the company which is clouding your judgement. Feel free to rely on journalists for your information but don't expect to be taken seriously as a result.

[BlueRay]

Yamaha, I can assure you I am nothing even remotely to do with Channel 4. I am interested about the happenings at British Airways, there are so many lessons to be learn't about how not to run a business. You are correct I am not a pilot, nor a wannabe.

[Carnage Matey!]

Blimey thats proper Channel 4 spin for you! I've admitted to being part of BAs PR department have I? Thats news to me. Even a cursory glance through my history would reveal your comments as delusionary. Along with your idea that a small, ancillary part of a corporate sales engine (which is what ba.com is) somehow bears any relation to engineering standards. It's also telling how you seem to have so much advance knowledge of the programs content, given that the all the trailers and press releases have merely discussed the lost baggage and cancelled flights with no mention of engineers. It won't be powerful stuff, no matter how much you personally want it to be. It'll be a sorry litany of second hand rumours, possibly some dubious tales of historical minor infractions, some surreptitious video shot with a shaky camera to add an element of suspense and some rehashed old figures from months ago. That's all. It won't even make the papers on Tuesday.

[Megaton]

Oh I'm sure the Hate Mail will manage to find a few column inches but I don't imagine we'll see anything in the newspapers.

[Falcon666]

:rolleyes:God even i cant wait to see the programme now !!
Unfortunately i dont think it will be broadcast in New Zealand -guess from reading your comments afterwards i wont need to have watched it anyway.

Love the pro /anti BA comments though guys.

Would just like to add that from a down under point of view BA is no longer viewed as the worlds favourite airline here.Its links with Qantas in One world is doing itself no favours.

Both Airlines have sufferered this year with accidents / maintenance issues.

Bad Luck-Maybe or is there more to it???.

Even the Aussies make fun of their new Government advertising campaign to visit the country.More along the lines of " If you manage to survive the Flight here youll love it".

Sums it up really

Enjoy the programme:rolleyes:

[BlueRay]

Falcon,

Your damn right about these BA boys, Public relations dept. Don't worry about being in Nw Zealand stopping you watching the programme. By the wonders of the WWW Channel 4 let you catchup on all your favorite programmes.

You'll be able to see it here channel4.com - watch online (http://www.channel4.com/watch_online/) after it airs live. Also there is usually some very nice chap that loads it onto Youtube. Just search youtube for 'the trouble with british airways' should bring you up any offerings.

Well I think my stalker Carnage Matey! has gone to sleep, he's got an early start down at BA HQ

[Skipness One Echo]

" If you manage to survive the Flight here youll love it".
What ignorant bull**** that is. God forbid any facts are allowed to get in the way of wild playground speculation. Forgot how chippy the Antipodes can be alas....

[overstress]

Blue ray, had to respond to that one - you don't have early starts at "BA HQ" you wander in at 1000 for a latte then read your emails until lunch etc

BTW, Carnage Matey is a BA pilot, as I am. But you will no doubt deny that.

The tv programme you prattle about has created zilch interest in the media.

Investors now describe BA stock as a solid buy, why not dip your toe in?

[BlueRay]

Overstress I guess that's why they're dropping as you're typing, down 6% at £1.21 (15.oct.08) You shouldn't trust those city slickers, look at the mess they've already made of the world economy. And your going to trust them on a punt with BA.

No i'd rather save my pennies for a more realistic punt, like the 100/1 offer at PADDY power for BA to cease trading. (merged/taken over)

I understand from the latest Willie Walsh HQ meeting that BA are losing £2 million everyday. Now at that rate of drainage,somethings going to give, that's a dead cert.

Now add that to the current possible liability of $2 billion for the cargo price fixing, which you've admitted. Plus the £2 billion for your pension deficit (sure to have widened with the current city falls) and I'm sure you start to see, things ain't all rosy down at British Airways.

Now one tip you should always remember, don't put all your eggs in one basket, working for and investing in your company is generally a no no. When or if it all goes terribly wrong, at least you won't also have a fist full of worthless junk bonds.

[Tandemrotor]

BA records best ever punctuality performance

British Airways produced the best daily punctuality performance in the history of the airline on Tuesday.

Head of operational planning and control, Andy Lord, said: “These figures – which build on our exceptional performance this summer – are fantastic and something of which we can all be very proud.

“This level of performance is a huge boost to us prior to next week’s final move of flights into T5. What’s more, it is being noticed by both our customers and competitors alike.”

Cutting the fuel surcharge too.

What a great product BA is providing! :)

[Ametyst2]

BlueRay, you really should learn to read. In numerous articles about BA they state that revenue, not profit, is down by £2 million per day. You really should read articles properly and thoroughly (I also refer you to your posting on the easyJet Base Captains thread) before posting your rubbish.

[bar none]

Let us start a competition to see who can be the most wrong in their postings.
Oops, too late, BlueRay is so far ahead that nobody will be able to catch him.

[overstress]

And your going to trust them on a punt with BA.

If you mean "you're going to trust them..." then no, I'm not as I don't buy shares. But please feel free...

Your 2m/day figure is wrong, also :ugh:

[GLAbum]

this is my first post and doesnt really add anything to your arguments, but i'd just like to say i was booked on Zoom gla/yvr on 28 aug, that went pear shaped and i eventually managed to re-book with BA. gla/lhr/sea on 30 aug, although i didnt like t5{shopping mall imho} the service was exceptional. onwards and upwards for BA.{AND I WORK FOR A COMPETITOR}.

[HZ123]

Now come on GLAbum you are just another employee from BA's Press Office?