When this Economy picks up!!!!!

[Celtic Pilot]

Just out of interest, when the economy does decide to pick up which hopefully it will (but only god knows when) a good few years down the line... How will flight schools (CCAT, OAA, FTE) support themselves until then (attract students)???

If the likes of HSBC pulls the plug on the loan which it could do any moment, how will people fund their training, this could mean that classes could fill up with so called 'daddy's boys'.....

the integrated schools and even the modular courses will be taking a big hit sooner rather than later!!!!

e.g cabair has been counting on HSBC to support its customers through the training until now, so has oxford, just wondering if you took all the students out of the class who have been partly funded by the HSBC loan, who would be left????

[preduk]

Family backed students probably, which would require Integrated FTOs to either create a bigger marketing campaign on why integrated is better or lower prices to attract more students.

Who knows.

[Nozwaldo]

I'm sure there will be those who can't continue or even start training, but there must be a fair proportion of students who can manage without family help or loans. I certainly can but I've been waiting and planning a long time for this.

Noz

[INNflight]

Shock horror, because obviously "daddy's boys" can neither fly nor study. They're all spoiled brats. :8

I guess it's not like most of the students at these high-end integrated outfits work until they got their 70k together and then shoot it all out for the training anyways, right?

I bet the majority has got the money either from their family or a bank loan (backed by daddy's house.. :ouch:), so I guess not a lot would change.

If you really had to WORK and EARN your 70k, who would be so f*****g stupid to burn all that money on a high end outfit where you gain your PPL in suit and tie when you could have the equal licenses for half the money???

*preparing for flack* :sad:

[L'aviateur]

There seems to be an awful lot of jealousy going on in the forums at the moment; along with a lot of uneducated, unfounded and naive assumptions.

The fact that some people have family support doesn't make them a 'Daddy's Boy', they are simply lucky, nothing to be jealous about. They may have the same interest and education as the rest of us. But the integrated schools also have a lot of overseas students and people who have worked and saved to attend.

I work for, and have saved every penny that I spend on flying. To fund my 'hobby' of flying (which includes my ATPL's), I've spent the last 4 years working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day and can't remember the last Christmas I spent at home. I then spend entire holidays flying!

Most of the people I meet in the flying schools and clubs also work and save to fly, which may come as a shock to those who accuse everyone of being a 'Daddy's Boy' or 'upto their eyes in debt'.

[Re-Heat]

Sounds like the idiot brigade who envy any and everyone who has made a success of themselves, have permeated this thread.

[hollingworthp]

I don't know the full in's and out's - but OAA train currently (or recently) for the Nigerian and Algerian air force (so their governments presumably pick up the tab). Also, every few months there are something like 8 EPST students. This combined with a reasonable smattering of 'mature' 2nd career students means that we are not all fresh from A-Levels :}

[INNflight]

Let me clarify my statement in response to the OP, because that's where the phrase "daddy's boy" appeared.

If you fail to see the sarcasm in the "spoiled brats" sentence? Well fair enough, I think the smiley made it even easier to understand.

2ndly, I have family support, they finance (not pay!) half of my training which I am grateful for, and I will pay them back, no jealousy here.

But honestly, I fail to see how ANY of the 18-25 yr old attendees at OAT, etc. could have earned the cash themselves, so again, not a lot would change comparing to the good times. That's a value-free statement, again, no jealousy here.

I enjoy excellent flight training far away from home, which is imho a good experience and yes, the total cost won't even get close to 70k GBP. I could buy a type rating and stay below that mark, but will still hold the same license and finish in the same time as them.

What I find unreasonable?!?

Those daddy's boys who will not settle for anything less than the top integrated outfit because they think they deserve nothing but the fanciest training in suit and tie. I really don't get that, sorry.

[L'aviateur]

INNflight, just stop for a second and read the last line of your last post.

[Aerospace101]

Those daddy's boys who will not settle for anything less than the top integrated outfit because they think they deserve nothing but the fanciest training in suit and tie.

I think you'll find said stereotype of student doesnt actually exist anylonger. Either that or a very rare phenomenon.

[Bombs Away]

As far as I am aware OAA are planning to increase their course costs by approx 3000stg for 2009 so I imagine they feel they won't have a problem attracting new applicants.

I had been planning to go there myself and have the full funds to do so after saving hard for the past few years but now I'm thinking in the current climate that I should go modular and have enough left over for a type rating if I need one and maybe a nice big holiday at the end of it :E

[BladeM3]

HSBC has pulled the plug!

[BEagle]

The economy won't improve until there is a better culture towards debt.

Loans for career development and housing are one thing, but the concept of 'saving up' to buy something is lost on today's yoof, as is the concept of paying off credit card bills - they seem happy to loaf along with huge debts paying off the interest. Old-fashioned hire purchase (the 'never never') did at least have legal payment requirements.

With the exception of career development, education and housing, credit should be denied to anyone without an income - and credit card bills should be paid off within a month. As is the norm in other countries. Hire purchase agreements should be required for substantial purchases (e.g. cars) unless payment is made in cash.

Too many people spending money they didn't have, together with financial jackals living off interest payments is one of the root causes of the current problem.

[david_gannon]

HSBC are out.....i hope this isn't true, even though i do not plan on starting training for at least another year and wont be taking out a massive loan from them, this could be a problem. I hope its not true.

[Celtic Pilot]

Dave

Hate to tell you, but HSBC did pull the plug on the professional studies loan for pilot training last week.. Look at Cabair's website under First Officer Direct course!!!!!!

I am one of the lucky ones, submitted my application two weeks ago, so she said they still process them as normal even if they do pull the plug, thats the point in the meeting when I raised my ears and predicted them to withdraw the loan SOON!!!!

I pressume they have withdrawn them for OAA and CTC as well!!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lady Luck would be doing you a favour if your loan application was refused.

The fact that you don't see this is why we are mostly nationalising the banking system this morning..


WWW

[boeing320]

If you absolutely 'have to' train now, do it slowly and get good value for money guys. Paying up to 100 grand??? (re-paying 140). Just dont.

There was a section in one of the pilot mags this month about commercial flight training and the boss of a well known british integrated school was saying how now was the perfect time to re-morgage your grans house and spend £80000 with him!! (During the downturn). I almost laughed out loud. Wonder what he says during the good times - oh no, dont do it now for gods sake - terrible idea!!

Lady Luck would be doing you a favour if your loan application was refused.

The fact that you don't see this is why we are mostly nationalising the banking system this morning..

If you really had to WORK and EARN your 70k, who would be so f*****g stupid to burn all that money on a high end outfit where you gain your PPL in suit and tie when you could have the equal licenses for half the money???

harsh, but true.
all the best, b320

[ford cortina]

If I had saved 70K plus, I would get a nice nearly new DB9 or a 911, now that's blowing money!!!!!

[350Z]

Like your style Mr Cortina! Should be able to snap up a bargain as the automotive sales industry (both new and 2nd hand) are dead...look at this- Lodge Motor Company : Bentley Continental GT 6.0 W12 Coupe Tiptronic (Sat Nav) (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/724560.htm) was nigh on £120k new! Now thats how to waste money! lol

Seriously though, even those that were reasonably optimistic about the possibility of the economy rising from the darkness have now done a 180 and told everyone to buckle up and prepare for a rough couple of years. Spending £70k+ on flight training is madness in the current conditions....and that's coming from someone who was considering it 6mnths ago. :ooh:

[mech500]

I totally disagree with the concept of banks lending money to say 18 year old's fresh out of school.

Those people, who do not have family backing etc and no money of their own, should never have been allowed to borrow such amounts of money in the first place. This is one of the reasons why the economy is in the state it is now.

At 18 it would be better to go to uni and then get a well paid job (or at least a better paying job) Hopefully, you will have the money saved up to fund a modular training course by 25-26. (I did this).

Personally i dont think that airlies should hire anyone under 25 as 21, in my opinion, is way to young for an airline pilot! i wouldnt feel too comfortable knowing that my family is on aboard a plane piloted by someone who hasn't even fully developed physically! But then against my view is based upon what i was like at 21.

So the fact that HSBC have stopped their loan scheme is good news for me - it means that 18year olds, who are serious about their career have to work harder and stop spending money they dont have.

[G-BFUN]

Really disagree with you.
If you are trained to do the job and pass the exams it does not matter how old you are.

Plus your comment about uni... People get into LOTS of debt going to uni and most of the time people go to uni and dont even know what they want to do afterwards and end up doing a job where a degree would not be a "must have"

Least with flying training you can be sure that people do have a goal in their head.

Please dont get me wrong I am sure that quite a lot of ppl going to uni do have an ambition that requires them having a degree, but not all.

[Celtic Pilot]

but at least they are qualified to obtain a better paid job provided the degree is core subject based...

Some people undertake degrees in 'Peace Studies' or Antopology... But these degrees have no relevant area....

[Rj111]

Degrees are pratically a joke in this day and age. Only if you intend on becoming a Lawyer or a Doctor or any other specialist job are they worthwhile. For eveything else they are a "get your foot in the door" mechanism and a very expensive and time consuming one at that.

Even as a computer programmer i learnt vastly more at both A-level and the first couple of months of my job than i did at Uni. If i had not gone i would probably be earning vastly more than i do now too.

A lot of people just see it as an easy 3 year pissup.

[Celtic Pilot]

thats exactly what doing an non-core acdemic subject in a degree is - a 3 year piss up!!!!

Did mechanical engineering myself which pays quite well, so it wasnt a waste of time for me, it is what you make it i reckon!!!!!

If you are an A-level student and go into flying straight away, well your just plain mad in the head!!!! no-back up plan or anythin...

You might of learnt the most from your a-levels but what job outside of stacking shelves at tesco's are you supposed to get without a degree these days!!!!

[Bruce Wayne]

From the Cabair website...

The credit crunch is proving difficult, and as a result, HSBC have withdrawn their Professional Studies Loan for Pilot Training.

[tupues]

Its lucky none of the pilots in WW2 were under 25-26 otherwise we would have definately lost the war!:rolleyes:

[Rj111]

You might of learnt the most from your a-levels but what job outside of stacking shelves at tesco's are you supposed to get without a degree these days!!!!
That's partly the point about the foot in the door mechanism. But i don't think a degree is necessary for a high earning job. 4 friends i know who are aged about 23 are earning 30k and another is a plumber is on 40k. Of all the friend i know who went to uni, i don't think anyone is above 25k right now. And then you have to factor in the student loan.

Not that i'm a particularly care about money beyond spunking it all on flying. :p

[corsair]

There was a section in one of the pilot mags this month about commercial flight training and the boss of a well known british integrated school was saying how now was the perfect time to re-morgage your grans house and spend £80000 with him!! (During the downturn). I almost laughed out loud. Wonder what he says during the good times - oh no, dont do it now for gods sake - terrible idea!!


I saw that magazine. Yes that same section, listed CTC and PTC as integrated FTOs alongside OAA and Cabair. Not exactly reliable information.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Part of the USP of PPRuNe is that we're not flying school employees, not magazines funded by flying school advertising, we're not even airline representatives. The advice you can get here is unique because it comes from the horse mouth with no vested interest.

WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

...and another unique aspect of PPRuNE is we provide the collective memory some FTO's would prefer didn't exist.

Just a reminder that the HSBC loans had already been hugely restricted in recent years forcing wannabees into the arms of just one part of the industry.

There's a lot more to the flight training world and some utterly outstanding organisations long ignored by those fixated on the HSBC route. For the truly determined there's now a whole new world of choice.

The people eventually interviewing you know these schools - low profile but quiet legends. There is genuine cachet to them you'll not understand until you are actually flying professionally. This cachet actually extends to individual teachers and instructors - PPRuNe is where you'll hear of them.

Rob

[boeing320]

corsair, i'm not sure what you're driving at - it was a straightforward quote from a guy with a large vested interest in taking lots of money from people who currently have little chance of getting a job at the end of his very very pricey course.

Unless we're supposed to not trust any media ever???

[stefair]

A very interesting debate.

I myself majored in Aerospace Engineering and graduated in summer 2007 from a UK university with honors. The idea was to get an edge over other rookies and to have a back-up. Also, the then state of economy scared me away from forking out even the mere 35k for modular training. Uhm ... has having an engineering degree now helped me find a pilot job with decent pay? Unfortunately I must say ... rather not. At least not to this point.

Now presuming I will be earning a good salary as a pilot in the next few years and supposedly am unfortunate to loose my medical in say 5, will I be able to work for Airbus or RR as an engineer not a mechanic (amazingly and graciously called engineers in the UK too, only God knows why) after that, after being years out of college? Rather not. Simply for the fact I just will not remember a thing of what I studied during my college days.

I am CP licensed with current ME/I ratings and am already flying for a living (admittedly SE VFR "only") but am finding it sooomewhat difficult to land that first elusive job on bigger aircraft. Trust me, have become veeery efficient in sending out CVs ... but the market seems to be inundated with pilots. Some of my friends, who, when I decided to get a degree first, started their flight training earlier and what are they doing now? Flyng 320s and 737s and other beauties and cashing in a couple of grand a month as they were ready when operators were hiring. Oh boy, how much do I wish to have started my training back then, too.

The point I am making is, a degree is not that much of relevance in the UK, as, for instance, it is in the US. It is the hours. And it is the time of training. History books suggest there have alway been economic downtimes but also highs and it is in downtimes when people need to start training so they are ready when pilot demand picks up. That being said, however, I do not mean going integrated and wasting an awful lot of money on training which in no way is any better than modular.

And now, fire away...