Pilot charged for taking helicopter shopping

[gazelleboy]

check out this link
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/car-park-landing-puts-pilot-on-shaky-ground-1371901.html

[Thousand Island]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/car-park-landing-puts-pilot-on-shaky-ground-1371901.html
http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00181/helo_181512t.jpg
By Grainne Cunningham
Saturday May 10 2008
Grainne Cunningham

IT WOULD never happen in the movies... just as the helicopter pilot attempts to bring his craft into land, out rushes a car park attendant, frantically trying to wave him away.

But that's what happened in the central shopping area of Athlone Town when a gung-ho pilot decided to take an unorthodox route to collect his newly cut keys and landed on the roof of an adjacent multi-storey car park on July 8, 2007.

The 48-year-old pilot has been criticised for "poor airmanship" and for having broken Irish air law.

The attendant injured his hand when the downwash from the helicopter's main rotor caused a door to slam against it and the single-engine craft should not have been put down in a congested area because of the danger of engine failure, the pilot was told.

Review

The Irish Aviation Authority said last night that it was reviewing the incident and the pilot may face sanction in the future. However, he has not faced any repercussions for his actions to date.

"In landing at such a site the pilot displayed poor airmanship," concluded air accident investigator Paddy Judge in his report. Despite repeated requests, both by phone and letter, the pilot did not complete and return an air accident report on the incident.

The Air Accident Investigation Report says the pilot, who was accompanied by his brother in the single-engine Hughes 369HS helicopter, was getting some keys cut for the door of his aircraft at the Texas Department Store.

"He landed on the roof of the adjacent multi-storey car park. It is unclear to the investigation where the helicopter could have been safely force-landed in the event of an engine failure during landing or take-off.

"It is also probable that the approach was made over the unstressed roof of the shopping centre due to the location of the church to the north of the landing site," the report said.

"The shopping centre was open for business at the time, and for obvious safety reasons, the area should have been completely avoided."

Mr Judge described the landing site as being in a congested area and "furthermore, and importantly, it is an elevated site where Rescue and Fire Fighting Services are mandatory. Neither was available".

The report says the pilot's US licence was issued in March 2007, just four months before the incident.

"The pilot stated that he has about 150 hours helicopter flying experience, but was unable to supply a logbook, which he stated was lost in a subsequent accident."

In evidence, the car park attendant said that as the helicopter approached for landing he attempted to wave it away.

"The helicopter pilot ignored him and he had to duck into the doorway... as space on the roof is restricted. The downwash from the main rotor caused the door to slam back against him hitting his hand."

Words were exchanged between the attendant and the pilot after the landing.

The gardai were called, but by the time they arrived the helicopter had left.

The attendant said the helicopter had landed on the roof some months previously and his supervisor told him afterwards that this was not allowed

The pilot said he had landed there before accompanied by the owner of the shopping centre who had given him permission to land on the car park roof.

That day, he rang the duty manager of the shopping centre before taking off to confirm that he had permission to land. He was unaware that the duty manager no longer had authority to grant him permission to land.

The pilot said the car park attendant was not on the roof while he was landing and only approached the helicopter on engine shutdown.

He said that the attendant could not have given signals, as he was not present until after landing.

- Grainne Cunningham

[mini]

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=10599&lang=ENG&loc=1652

I note he hasn't responded to requests to complete the paperwork & "lost" his logbook?.

These cowboys get the regulars a bad name. :sad:

[lipgo]

Agreed.

Flagrant, irresponsible behaviour. As a reprimand the best that the IAA could throw at the individual was ' poor airmanship' !!
Surely gross misconduct & reckless behaviour deserve a stiffer sentence.
Time to weed out the chaff.

[kwachon]

"Paddy Judge", sounds fishy to me....

[eurocopter beans]

Absolutely hilarious, love it. I especially like the bit of the report that states the pilot was breaking irish air law followed by no recommendation...excellent. If it wasn't for bandits flying around the place there would be no craic anymore.:E

[NickLappos]

"he then took refuge behind a door where he was injured by the helicopters main rotor downwash."

Poor guy, pounded mercilessly by the wind.....

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I hope he bought a parking ticket.

[scooter boy]

"****!" it's just like the wild west out there.

SB

[Chickenhawk1]

wish I could've banged around in a 500 with 150 hours not worrying if roofs could support me!

Heard the week before he got caught on the roof of a statoil getting the jumbo breakfast roll in! ('ah 2 egg 2 sausage 2 rasher 2 bacon 2 puddin 1 black 1 whiiiite....'!) :}

[2leftskids]

Must be kind of risky parking your car on that untested roof too I guess!!

[misterbonkers]

A Dublin cabbie once told me in Ireland if you fail your driving test you get a 'Certificate of Incompetance' but you can still continue, unsupervised, to teach yourself to drive!

Brilliant. Good job the pilot wasn't flying a twin onto the carpark - the downwash may have caused further distress to the attendant.

[212man]

Good job the pilot wasn't flying a twin onto the carpark - the downwash may have caused further distress to the attendant.

Since when did the number of engines influence the downwash?

Since when did f***ing up the people and property on the landing site become a source of amusement? Or is that amusement only for the pilot/owners? :ugh:

[Vertical T/O]

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10599-0.pdf

[500 Fan]

What exactly are the powers of the Irish Aviation Authority to take action against an F.A.A. licensed pilot, private or commercial? Their response may seem farcical but perhaps their hands are tied by a lack of proper legislation. I am a PPL with IAA and FAA licences so I'm not pushing the anti-pilot or anti-flying agenda here. But reckless stuff like this and the AS350 Nutter need to be properly dealt with. These two appear to be lacking a little in the common-sense department and for their own good, and those in their immediate vicinity, perhaps they would be better off not holding licences. They make the heli industry look like a bunch of cowboys when the opposite is the case for the vast majority of pilots here in Ireland and elsewhere. If any of us endangered life by driving a car recklessly, we could expect a call from the police. Should the same not be the case for ropey flying as well?

500 Fan.

[malabo]

Ahhh, the chorus of the self-righteous...

All regulations aside, if this pilot was my student I would say job well done. He picked a flat, unobstructed surface, no significant obstacles, no loose debris, elevated so therefore good approaches. No persons or cars on the large open car park area, so no risk or hazard to the public. He is flying a light 2500lb helicopter on skids so lots of HOGE performance margin. For that weight a car park is more than structurally sound - you guys should try a log-truss pad in PNG, or 6 feet of fresh show, with maybe an ice crust layer two feet down.

He'd landed at that location before, and this time again contacted the authority he thought was required and that had previously given approval. Hardly irresponsible.

The authority in Ireland did right to scratch their heads and come up blank for a regulatory infraction. If it had gone to tribunal the pilot could have made them all look foolish.

I've heard of helicopter pilots that have only ever landed on airport runways or large designated helipads. I guess this forum is full of them.

[rudestuff]

Absolutely amazing. A lot of negative comments from a lot of people who should perhaps hand their licences back and get fixed-wing ones instead. This kind of thing is what helicopters are designed for. I hope more people follow suit. Too bad the pillock let himself down with the 'lost' logbook.

[Helipolarbear]

Just curious, according to the media report, why the AAIU Investigator is apportioning blame to the pilot for this incident. Is that not the remit of the other agency known as the IAA???
The AAIU website states catagorically that it's job is to find the facts and circumstances, but not apportion blame for the incident/accident!!! Seems like the spokesperson of the AAIU is unsure if he is discussing apples or oranges......:ugh: Not defending the actions of the pilot, rather, lets get our own guns loaded before sending rounds down range at the target!!!!:cool:

[Helipolarbear]

Mister Bonkers......A London Cabbie once told me that the reason there were so many Irish in the UK was to put the 'Great' back into Britain!!! You shouldn't believe everything you're told! Particularly about downwash from multi engined heli's..........:cool: You have an aptly named callsign!!!!:D

[DBChopper]

I've heard of helicopter pilots that have only ever landed on airport runways or large designated helipads. I guess this forum is full of them.


Er, yes, like me. It kind of seems sensible given my limited experience and I guess the same applies to the many others like me on the forum who come here to learn, not to be heroes. Pardon us for being inexperienced :rolleyes:

[rudestuff]

This whole thread seems a little silly - someone landed a helicopter, by the looks of it quite safely - and someone hurt his hand because he couldn't operate a door in windy conditions and had to have his mummy kiss it better... It seems to me that there are two types of rotorhead - the pilot type who thinks that this type of thing is perfectly normal and dare I say it a bit cool (and bugger what the neighbours think about the noise) - and theres the spotter type who like to talk about G-FART and which company which airframe worked for and when - and how we neeed to do something about these cowboys who fly at 490' and give us all a bad name.

But perhaps thats just me exhibiting a hazardous macho attitude?

[Thousand Island]

Too bad the pillock let himself down with the 'lost' logbook.

Rudestuff,
I think you are off the mark, granted there are a few who do not see the seriousness of this report or may not view the reason for such a report. Helipolarbear made a very important point:

why the AAIU Investigator is apportioning blame to the pilot for this incident. Is that not the remit of the other agency known as the IAA???

The IAA can not come out with a statement on one person flying antics, but in my opinion are using the AAIU as a tool to issue a public report into the incident as some one suffered an injury, be it very small, it is still an injury, caused by the operation of an aircraft.

Lipgo:
As a reprimand the best that the IAA could throw at the individual was ' poor airmanship' !!

We have to assume the IAA and AAIU work in conjunction, and are trying to find ways around there legal bindings. The IAA recently published adverts in national news papers telling the public why it is illegal to fly in an aircraft with out an AOC. Might there be a clamp-down on illegal AOC operations?

Now, lets just think out of the box for a minute, might it be that the IAA intend to take people to court? Might it be that they are looking for a very public case to bring to the attention of other pilots, that are not acting within Irish Air Law, that they will be prosecuted?

This incident has good evidence, a photo of the helicopter on a roof top car park. Very difficult to argue against that point......
Do we all have our AOC stickers?? Do we all have our Aerial works Permits and manuals? If you don't, the next report may be about you.....

On a side note, where do the insurance companies stand on not complying with airspace law?

[SASless]

I come late to this argument.

It sounds like a case of mis-communication more than anything else.

The real question you lot should be discussing is why fire and rescue services have to be provided for landing a helicopter.

If one were to take off from an airport that was closed after normal business hours.....would you argue the operation was unsafe because there were no fire/rescue services available?

A second question would be why there are not more roof top heliports available for use in urban areas.

Why is it places like Los Angeles can have hundreds of roof top heliports and the UK/Ireland have none?

The third question that begs discussing is why anyone would call this a "nutter", describe him as having performed "poor airmanship" and immediately hang him from the town gate.

What is it that this fellow did that is so out of the norm that he belongs in the "near lunatic category"?

The concept single engine helicopters cannot operate safely over "congested" areas and only multi-engine aircraft can is yet another question to be argued.

Perhaps we should have Nick remind us of the engine failure rates for singles and explain the inherent risks to operating a "Twin" outside full CAT A performance standards?

The final question that needs to answered, as one of my friends suggested over a lovely curry in Horley, is why Brits seem to pounce on others and tear at them like dogs at a rag, when things like this occur? He wondered whether it was unique to the British as he had not seen such events amongst the Americans, Canadians, or the Australians.

[500 Fan]

As mentioned previously, the main risk to this landing is engine failure. If the engine keeps going, and you don't catch a skid on that railing, then the landing and take-off presents 'little' risk to the aircraft or people on the ground. If the engine decides to quit at the wrong time then things are going to turn nasty. Its a question of whether you simply want to take the (relatively small) risk. It would be interesting to know what the statistics say in relation to engine failure in the 250-C20 series engine per 100,000 flight hours. Other than that, it can be argued that the landing was a well-executed one.

Perhaps the comparison between this 500 pilot and AS350 Nutter is a little harsh.

[Thousand Island]

As I read the following, this does not make any remark to 'one off' landings but only to permanent heliports. I do recall that the Radison in Galway was classed as an elevated heliport durring the races, but the Abbeyglen is not, nore would the top tee box in the Glenlo Abbey? Are these are elevated and congested? :confused:

Extracts from OAM 08/00
2. DEFINITIONS

These definitions are taken from ICAO (Annex 14 Volume 2, Chapter 6) and refer
to ‘helicopter overall length’ being the helicopter length, including the tail boom and
the rotors. At surface level heliport sites, the corresponding levels of RFFS should
be used for the H2 RFFS STANDARDS (see Section 3 below) or H1 RFFS
STANDARD (see Section 4 below) as appropriate and these correspond to the
standards which meet the Authority’s requirements for the levels of RFFS at
permanent and temporary licensed surface level heliports. An operator is
encouraged to adopt these H1 or H2 standard levels whenever a safety case cannot
be made for employing the lower levels described in Sections 5 and 6 below. At
elevated heliports the level of extinguishing agents described in Section 7 are to be
regarded as the absolute minimum.

a) Helicopter Category H1: A helicopter with an overall length up to but not including 15
metres.
b) Helicopter Category H2: A helicopter with an overall length of 15 metres up to but not
including 24 metres.
c) There are currently no Category H3 helicopters on the Irish register.
d) Elevated Heliport: A heliport located on a raised structure on land.

2. International Standards and Recommended Practices

2.1. The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) is the organisation
responsible, inter alia, for compiling and disseminating information concerning
internationally agreed helicopter Operating Standards and Recommended Practices
(SARPS). ICAO Contracting States are required to notify ICAO of any differences
between their national regulations and practices and ICAO SARPS. ICAO has been
notified that there are no differences in Irish regulations, relating to for ground level
or elevated heliports, from the SARPS in ICAO Annex 14, Volume 2 (Heliports) and
its associated Heliport Manual (Doc 9261- AN/903).
4. Elevated Heliports

4.1. By virtue of the siting of the vast majority of elevated heliports within congested
areas with the associated perceived risk to the heliport building, third parties and to
nearby structures, only helicopters with Performance Class 1 capability are
permitted to land at or take-off from elevated heliports. The helicopter type,
intended to be used, must possess a Flight Manual performance profile
demonstrating that, in the event of engine failure occurring at any time during the
take-off or landing manoeuvres, the helicopter can safely land back on to the
elevated heliport or safely fly away, avoiding all obstacles by a vertical margin of at
least 35 feet (see Aeronautical Notice 0.2).

4.2. The minimum acceptable dimensions of an elevated heliport must also be described
in the Flight Manual, the Flight Manual Supplement and/or in the Operations Manual
for the helicopter type under consideration. Elevated heliports which do not
conform to the required dimensions should not be considered for use.

Any proposed development for an elevated heliport for day or night use,
will always attract the need for IAA operational approval and licensing.
Factors considered will include, intended operations, heliport dimensions, obstacle
environment, lighting, approach path indicators; and visual cues and flight visibility
from the type of helicopter to be used; and pilot qualifications and training.
Thus, a heliport ‘proving’ flight test programme, undertaken by a helicopter operator
in conjunction with the IAA, will normally be required, and successful completion of
a special pilot training and checking programme to ensure pilot competency will also
be necessary before an IAA approval of helicopter operations to an elevated heliport
will be considered.

4.3. The provision of Rescue and Fire Fighting Services (RFFS) at elevated heliports is
mandatory and must be provided to the scales laid down in Chapter 6 of ICAO
Annex 14, Volume 2, (Heliports). Close liaison with the local Fire Brigade during the
heliport planning and construction stages must be established and maintained
thereafter to ensure a viable emergency plan is agreed, maintained and monitored.

4.4. In all cases, it is necessary that an elevated heliport developer consult in advance,
with the IAA and with the local planning authority before final development
committal is made to the project. Recent experience has shown that, where a
planning application is made, environmental considerations, such as possible noise
disturbance, fuel contamination, public access, etc., weigh heavily in the decision
making process.

4.5. When seeking guidance from the IAA, an architect's/engineer’s drawing/plan
together with a helicopter operational report from an appropriately qualified
consultant, including aerial photographs of the proposed heliport site taking in
nearby structures and obstacles should be forwarded to Authority for preliminary
evaluation. Site visits during the heliport development phase and thereafter by IAA
Inspectors will be required. Fees will be payable in respect of site visits and
licensing, as appropriate.

[Backward Blade]

Now I'm not going to say that what this guy did was the smartest thing in the world, especially landing a very expensive piece of equipment for a couple dollars worth of keys...I fly commercially and have a natural tendency to think that way. BUT what was so reckless about it. Did he break the rules or no? He obtained permission, albeit from the wrong authority, and given that ignorance is no excuse his "pp" should be slapped a little. It's single engine but so what...cars have 4 tires and just one blowout can cause alot of problems. Does he need the city's approval? If he does then fine his ass. All in all I don't think he did anything too seriously wrong or dangerous. Hell, given where I land on a daily basis that looks like an airport to me.

As for the wind thing, well, I've done the Scotish/Irish thing and you can bet your royal behind that the winds off the coast of either country will definately put pale to anything a 500 can produce.:p And by the way, is it Irish Law to be carrying your personal logbook, or were they talking about the A/C Journy Log Book

I have to fly commercially to tickle my flying fetish, but I would give my left nut to be able to go to the store like this bloke in my own personal helicopter. If the Prince can land a Chinook in his girlfriends backyard (of which I have read and don't have any problems with either as a guy does have to fly to stay current, and at least he didn't land that beast in my backyard LOL.:}) and Tornadoes can continue to scare the ****e out of no brainer tourists trying to drive on the "right" side of the road, (yes that was me! LOL:8) I think what this guy did deserves a little less attention than what some of you think it deserves.

BWB

[SASless]

2. International Standards and Recommended Practices

"Recommended" is not an imperative where I come from.



ICAO Contracting States are required to notify ICAO of any differences
between their national regulations and practices and ICAO SARPS.

ICAO plainly expects some variations from their rules.



4.1. By virtue of the siting of the vast majority of elevated heliports within congested
areas with the associated perceived risk to the heliport building, third parties and to
nearby structures, only helicopters with Performance Class 1 capability are
permitted to land at or take-off from elevated heliports.

Isn't there a difference between known, provable risks and their "perceived risk" concept?

4.2. The minimum acceptable dimensions of an elevated heliport must also be described
in the Flight Manual, the Flight Manual Supplement and/or in the Operations Manual
for the helicopter type under consideration. Elevated heliports which do not
conform to the required dimensions should not be considered for use.

How many RFM's set forth Helipad dimensions? Does a Privately owned and operated helicopter have an OPS Manual?

a heliport ‘proving’ flight test programme, undertaken by a helicopter operator
in conjunction with the IAA, will normally be required, and successful completion of
a special pilot training and checking programme to ensure pilot competency will also
be necessary before an IAA approval of helicopter operations to an elevated heliport
will be considered.

Why pray tell does every helicopter pilot have to receive training on each helipad they are going to operate from? Does each pilot have to be "checked" by the IAA? If so that is simply ridiculous!

4.4. In all cases, it is necessary that an elevated heliport developer consult in advance,
with the IAA and with the local planning authority before final development
committal is made to the project. Recent experience has shown that, where a
planning application is made, environmental considerations, such as possible noise
disturbance, fuel contamination, public access, etc., weigh heavily in the decision
making process.

No problem with that.

4.5. When seeking guidance from the IAA, an architect's/engineer’s drawing/plan
together with a helicopter operational report from an appropriately qualified
consultant, including aerial photographs of the proposed heliport site taking in
nearby structures and obstacles should be forwarded to Authority for preliminary
evaluation. Site visits during the heliport development phase and thereafter by IAA
Inspectors will be required. Fees will be payable in respect of site visits and
licensing, as appropriate.

Who determines qualifications for a consultant? Why is a "consultant" required? Could not a layman interpret the rules and regs and related information and plan his own helipad without the need for a "consultant"? Sounds like a "make work" situation similar to private owners having to employ an engineering agent to oversee maintenance on a private aircraft.

[500 Fan]

SASless,

I.A.A. (Irish Aviation Authority) - occasionally refered to as the "Institute Against Aviation"!;)

[heliski22]

As pointed out, this, in some jurisdictions wouldn't raise an eyebrow! However, in his local situation, this was probably just a bit "in your face", as it were, with regard to the local populace who do seem to have a small tendency towards begrudgery!! Perhaps a little more circumspection would have been a better idea!

Other than that, perhaps this thought applies here:-

"Old men love to give good advice when no longer able to give bad example!"

[wesp]

The IAA wants the OAM 08/00 being seen as rules. However the document state say they are only guidelines!

If you land in a confined area, something helicopters are made for, you might get a letter inviting you to talk about it. The IAA wants you to have at least 143 meters free take-off distance, behind that only minor obstacles for the remaining 350 meters (R44). For an AS350 even 200 meters.

Now as I understand from some JAA instructors here, they don't even train pilots for confined areas, because training has to be done at a licensed airfield, so they only train 'simulated' confined area's!!!! This guy was properly trained in the States so he had plenty of confined area training.

Ireland is very strict with the regulations and guidelines, and way more so then the UK or any other country in Europe (I flew in most of them).

[Flying Lawyer]

SASless.

You 'come late to the argument', but with good questions in both your posts. :ok:


Agree, it was a lovely curry - and good to put the world to rights at the end of a great day. :)

[Nubian]

Holy ****! What a nutter...... If this qualifies for being a "nutter", then I am probably in the insane-category as I have landed on quite a number of places a LOT worse and a goood number being single engine..


By the way, has any of the twinONLY-boys ever reflected over the fact that in a twin you have twice the chance of an engine-failure:E

[Helipolarbear]

Nubian....nice thought.......but it also means in a multi-engine, if you have an engine failure and have planned right, you get to fly away and land somewhere safe most of the time (99.99999%?)......, better odds than single operations anyway you factor it!:ok:

[gyrotyro]

"He landed on the roof of the adjacent multi-storey car park. It is unclear to the investigation where the helicopter could have been safely force-landed in the event of an engine failure during landing or take-off."

Well he could always use the roof of the multi-storey car park !!!

Doh !

[Nubian]

Helipolarbear,
I think you should check your % figure of enginefailure in twins, as I don't think it is as high as 99,999999%
I will agree, that you'll have more power to control an emergency landing but it is a bit more complex than "engine failure!.....doesn't matter as we have another one....."

If you refer to new performance Class 1 helicopters, I agree, but if you say twin in general......then you must include all those 105's, 355F's, 109A, 222A, 76A and so on.
These helicopters my friend DON't have the neccesary performance when operated at GW in normal conditions (not to mention hot/high) to have a failure a the most critical point AND fly away and land somewhere nice as you say...

Until just some years ago, the only TRUE twin flying was the Bell 214ST which could loose one engine at GW, OGE, hot and still continue the take-off. All others have to in BEST case reduce GW and in most cases land back on before DP or Vtoss OR get the speed

Now, when you also include to engine failures the lack of fuel (flameouts of various fuel related nature), you can rest assured that twins will stop when they are not properly fed as well ;)

I am not trying to say that twins are not safe or for that matter dosen't make a diffrence. Just saying that, just cause you have two engines on your back it is important NOT to become complaceant and think you'll never need to think about shooting an auto again in your life.


Well, I guess this was abit off topic of the thread, but initially the remark was ment as a joke:ok:

Regards

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

95 % of stats are made up on the spot or something like that including that one :)

the single twin rules are something for the CAA/IAA's to come up with and those of us doing public transport simply have to follow them wether we think they are right or not. This guy was clearly flying private in his heli so if he wants to put the heli into a tight spot thats up to him, I fly MD500's and they are great and built tough the only thing that I think might need's looking at is wether or not he put the people on the ground at any risk?

I think landing in a carpark on a roof is fab it's what your ment to do with a helicopter along with all the other things you can't with a plane, but as the pilot or crew you know the risk's the poor sods on the ground don't but if their sorted then crack on :)

CBS

[jab]

I suppose this is going to cause a few coronaries! :E

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l70/jabberwockg/AUT_6019.jpg

[Nubian]

looks familar....... think I've seen those roofs before......:E

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

whats such a nice heli doing in a place like that ?

[Helipolarbear]

Looks like downtown Ikeaja, Lagos....then it could be Conakry, Nouakashott, Dakar, et.al.........

Nubian, regarding those 'other; non Cat A twins.....then the assumption must include that the engine failure occurs inside the cruise envelope which would make up most of the time of operational exposure.....but I do see your point............!:ok:

[SASless]

CBS,

the single twin rules are something for the CAA/IAA's to come up with and those of us doing public transport simply have to follow them wether we think they are right or not.

Is there no way for you, the operators of the aircraft, to combat draconian, wrong minded, senseless rules founded on crook data?

[ketchup]

So if it was even a Class A performance machine, with out written permission, according to the following, (S.I. No. 72 of 2004) it would still be illegal? or I have read this wrong?

I would also read by this rule, that you would have to have written permission to land at a race course, golf course, and hotel, as these would be congested? This is going against everything a helicopter can do very safely? How could the IAA cope with all the permission request coming in every day with the majority of them being very last minute, and on Saturdays and Sundays when the OSD office is closed?

3. Minimum heights
(1) Except as permitted by the appropriate authority or as hereinafter provided
aircraft shall not be flown -
(a) over congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an assembly
of persons, at less than -
(i) a height of 450 metres (1,500 ft) above the ground or water, or
(ii) a height of 300 metres (1,000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a
radius of 600 metres from the aircraft, or
(iii) such other height as would permit, in the event of the failure
of a power unit, a safe forced landing to be made,
whichever height is the greatest.
(b) elsewhere -
(i) closer than 150 metres, (500 ft) to any person, vehicle, vessel or
structure, or
(ii) at a height less than 150 metres (500 ft) above the ground or water,
(c) over or in the immediate vicinity of any place within the State, where a
large number of persons is assembled in connection with any event of
public interest or entertainment, save when -
(i) such flights are made with the written consent of the Authority and
of the organisers, if any, of the event and are in accordance with any
conditions or limitations specified by the Authority, or
(ii) the aircraft is passing by in the normal course of navigation and flying
at a height in compliance with subparagraph (a) of this paragraph.
(2) Subject to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph and subparagraph 6 (2) (a) of Rule
6 of these Rules, paragraph (1) (a) of this Rule shall not apply to a Performance
Class 1 or Class 2 helicopter which is being flown without undue hazard to
persons or property but, except with the permission of the appropriate
authority and in accordance with any conditions specified therein, such a
helicopter shall not be flown -
(a) over congested areas of cities, towns or settlements at less than
(i) such height as would enable it, in the event of the failure of a power
unit, to make a safe forced landing;
(ii) a height of 300m (1,000 feet) above the ground or water,
whichever height is the greater;
(b) The Authority may, in the interest of safety, prescribe areas, routes,
heights and flight visibility’s for helicopter flights and a helicopter shall
conform thereto.
(3) Paragraph (1)(b) of this Rule shall not apply to:
(a) an aircraft while it is landing or taking-off in accordance with normal
aviation practice at an aerodrome or heliport;
(b) an aircraft when it is in use for aerial application or aerial work with the
permission of the Authority and is operated in accordance with any
conditions or limitations specified with such a permission;
23
(c) a helicopter conducting training for life-saving operations or
demonstrations of such operations ;
(d) a glider while it is hill soaring;
(e) an aircraft flying with the permission of the Authority for the purpose of
picking up or dropping tow ropes, banners or similar articles at an
aerodrome.
(4) Paragraph (1)(b)(ii) of this Rule shall not apply to aircraft practising approaches
to landing at an aerodrome or heliport, or to gliders or balloons, if such flights
are being conducted without causing undue hazard to persons or property.
(5) Nothing in this Rule shall prohibit an aircraft from -
(a) (i) taking-off, landing or practising approaches to landing, or
(ii) flying for the purpose of checking navigational aids or procedures, in
accordance with normal aviation practice at an aerodrome or
heliport within the State, or at an aerodrome or heliport in any
other state, and without causing undue hazard to persons or
property;
(b) flying in such a manner as may be necessary for the purpose of saving life
or as permitted by paragraph (3) of Rule 6 of this Order.
(6) In the case of an aircraft practising approaches to landing at an aerodrome or
heliport as mentioned in paragraph (4) of this Rule, such approaches shall be
confined to the airspace customarily used by aircraft when landing or taking-off
in accordance with normal aviation practice at that location.

[meat bomb]

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10599-0.pdf

Check this one out

[NutLoose]

HAHAHAHA......... just as well he didnt decide to put it through a car wash whilst he was in town.

[KNIEVEL77]

I know this was in Ireland but.......'Mr Paddy Judge'????

[SASless]

Despite the appearance of Photo No: 1 of open space the area is quite congested as it is in the central shopping area of Athlone, a large town.

Funny how perceptions are considered basis of fact when it is convenient to those Against Aviation. The better question is why it does not apply in both directions?

[funfinn2000]

I believe a 109 landed at the square tallaght multi story once,

It's all there in the square, I think he went to see jurassic park with the kids.

the very same 500 pilot crashed the 300 last year close to his home.

[ketchup]

RTÉ News: Pilot charged for taking helicopter shopping (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1007/obriens.html)

Pilot charged for taking helicopter shopping
Tuesday, 7 October 2008 17:00
A man who landed his helicopter on the roof of a multi-storey car park next to a shopping centre in Athlone intends to 'fully defend' his actions.

Sean O'Brien, 49, from The Island in Ballycumber Co Offaly, landed on the roof of Parkrite Texas Centre in St Mary's Place in order to collect newly cut keys for his helicopter.

The pilot, who was accompanied by his brother in the single-engine Hughes 369HS helicopter, appeared before a sitting of Athlone District Court today.

The Irish Aviation Authority summonsed Mr O'Brien for operating a helicopter in a 'negligent or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property in a manner that was hazardous to person and property'.

The IAA completed an Air Accident Investigation Report earlier this year which found that the pilot showed 'poor airmanship'. It stated that Mr O'Brien had been getting keys cut for the door of his helicopter at the Texas Department Store.

'He landed on the roof of the adjacent multi-storey car park. It is unclear to the investigation where the helicopter could have been safely force-landed in the event of an engine failure during landing or take-off.

'It is also probable that the approach was made over the unstressed roof of the shopping centre due to the location of the church to the north of the landing site,' the report added.

Air Accident Investigator Paddy Judge said the shopping centre, which was open for business at the time, should have been 'completely avoided' for 'obvious safety reasons'.

The report also stated that a car park attendant said that he attempted to wave the helicopter away as it approached for landing.

The attendant took refuge behind a door but was injured by the helicopter's main rotor downwash as the helicopter continued to land.

Previous landing

'He stated that the helicopter had landed on the roof some months previously and his supervisor told him afterwards that this was not allowed. That was why he had tried to wave it away.'

However, the pilot claimed the car park attendant was not on the roof while he was landing and only approached the helicopter on engine shutdown.

The duty manager of the Texas Department Store, a shop unit within the Texas centre, stated that he had given the pilot permission to land but was unaware at the time that he did not have the authority to do so.

'The person, whom he had obtained permission from, did not have the authority to issue it as he neither controlled nor owned the car park. This resulted in the pilot, inadvertently, not having permission to land,' added the report.

Mr O'Brien had been issued a US licence in March 2007, just four months before the incident.

Judge William Earley adjourned the case to a sitting of Athlone District Court on 24 November.

So the IAA are taking action..... I stand corrected.

[jumparound]

RTÉ News: Pilot charged for taking helicopter shopping (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1007/obriens.html)

re: This incident

http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=10599&lang=ENG&loc=1652

[FloaterNorthWest]

Am I correct in thinking that the pilot involved posts on here as Roofus or am I putting 2 + 2....................

FNW

[Whirlygig]

FNW, I think you're putting two and two together and making 17! As far as I know, Roofus (Just Dropped In) is/was the police pilot who famously landed a twin squirrel on the roof of a house after a tail rotor failure.

However, there was someone who wanted to learn to fly on his father's N-reg Hughes who was from the same sort of area in Ireland but I think some of the posts got deleted!

Cheers

Whirls

[Old Skool]

Is that the real name of the Irish Investigator....'Air Accident Investigator Paddy Judge' :O

[maxvne]

wow is this the first of the prosecutions against the N reg aircraft?
Paddy Judge it cant be real can it?

Max

[ketchup]

This is free info, from the FAA web site, his name and address is in the paper so don't give me stick for posting his name. Now, would anyone like to comment why he has a student license?


FAA Registry
Name Inquiry Results

SEAN THOMAS O'BRIEN

Address

Street THE ISLAND BALLYCUMBER
City OFFALY State
County Zip Code
Country IRELAND


Medical

Medical Class: Second Medical Date: 2/2007



Certificates

1 of 1


DOI: 2/15/2007
Certificate: STUDENT PILOT

So the student license is only valid for 90 days, the incident happened four months later, and he was carrying a passenger?

Did I miss something or has the IAA once again?

[jumparound]

Could be a son with the same name ?

[ketchup]

This is the only other Sean O'Brien and has no address...

FAA Registry
Name Inquiry Results

SEAN JAMES O'BRIEN

Address

Address is not available


Medical

No Medical Available



Certificates

1 of 1


DOI: 11/17/2000
Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT
Rating(s):
COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE AND HELICOPTER

Mr O'Brien had been issued a US licence in March 2007, just four months before the incident.
So this SEAN JAMES O'BRIEN doesn't fit the bill....

This is outrages.

[noblades]

You might find FAA details are not up to date (maybe the school that trained him have made his paperwork vanish :E)


Will be interesting to see if FAA have representation at this case, correct me if I'm wrong (& i m sure someone will):} but under FAA system, is the examiner held accountable to some degree for actions of passed testies ?(pun intended). I do like the b*!!s on the guy to keep the fight going in spite of the reports issued.

Hang on, is this the same guy who ran out of go-go juice and seriously de-valued a hughes 269 in the same area? you couldnt make this stuff up :}

[Roofus]

Am I correct in thinking that the pilot involved posts on here as Roofus or am I putting 2 + 2....................

FNW

No! No!........& to avoid any possible misunderstanding......No!! :mad:

[500 Fan]

noblades asked if he was the one who totalled the Hughes 269.

Yes Sir, you are correct.

Mr. O'Brien mentioned somewhere along the way that he had lost his logbook in an accident. Not sure if this is the accident he is refering to or he lost it by some other means (My dog ate it, m'lord).

It looks like he is single-handedly trying to erase the Hughes 269 and 500 fleet from the face of the earth (or Ireland, at the very least). Trouble is he keeps bringing his brother along with him!

500 Fan.

P.S. I sat in on a ferry flight in this H500 a while ago when the previous owner had this machine. It was very nice to fly but I think I'll steer clear of it now.

[funfinn2000]

The lad has a ppl and it takes a number of months for the update to appear online, the same fellow crashed a Hu269 close to his home, but that was a G-reg so no big deal, only the N-reg suffer !!

Ketchup will ya get back to yer study before yer visa runs out.

[darrenphughes]

So the guy wrecked 1 helicopter so far. The problem now is that he landed on a rooftop car park, and the only adverse result of that is that some jack-ass didn't have the reflexes to pull his hand out of a closing door.

So how is he single-handedly trying to erase the Hughes 269 and 500 fleet from the face of the earth (or Ireland, at the very least)???

Now maybe he's "a flashy huer!!" that loves to flaunt his status symbols around and maybe he isn't the most politically correct guy around(he did make the approach over a built up area). But under the FAR's he needed to be at an altitude that didn't put people or property on the ground at risk in the event of an emergency. Now that leaves it very much open to interpretation, and I'm sure that the IAA could "prove" that he was being reckless by putting a bunch of experts up in front of a judge or committee and giving their opinion against him. But don't you guys think you're being a little harsh here.

Now maybe some of the people on here have seen him fly or better yet have sat with him, but unless you have I don't see how you can pass judgement on his actions by looking at 1 prior accident(which he may have learned a very valuable lesson from, and come out the wiser) and an incident where he blew a door closed.

[wesp]

The approach would even under FAA rules be illegal, it's a congested area with absolutely now where to go in case of an emergency. If you fly N-Reg in Ireland (or in any other country) you have to apply with IAA and FAA rules, obviously IAA rules come first.

Second of all the guy was flying without a license! A student pilot certificate is not a license. The current FAA database lists this man as a student pilot, and the FAA database doesn't lie. It takes about 3 months after the exam before the results show, but if a license is issued it always shows up in the database.

But what can the IAA or Gardai do in cases where somebody decides to fly a helicopter/airplane without a license?? How will they stop it?

[funfinn2000]

As I said earlier Guys the Data base takes time to be updated.

[500 Fan]

My comment about this pilot trying to "wipe out the global Hughes fleet" should be taken as my poor attempt at wit. As for me (or anyone else here) being jealous of the man because he has his own helicopter, well, I say good luck to him. However, regardless of whether or not you or I own the helicopter we fly, there comes with the privileges of a pilot's licence the responsibility to operate the helicopter in a responsible and safe manner. This landing on the rooftop carpark was at least careless, if not reckless. Some argued earlier in this thread that there was nothing wrong with what he did, that helicopters are versatile and this is exactly what they were designed for. No-one here will argue about the versatility of rotorcraft but the problem is this N-reg machine was operated in contravention of IAA regulations with regard to the approach to this landing site.

I haven't flown with the pilot in question but I do know the people closely connected with the H269 he wrote off and others in the heli community here in Ireland who know the pilot and are not "surprised" at these events.

There are, no doubt, numerous pilots on this forum who have logged upwards of 10,000 hours and have never even scratched a machine. These highly-experienced pilots will probably admit that they have had a few near-misses in their careers but it is doubtful they wilfully engaged in careless flying that might endager themselves or others. I don't know how many hours this pilot has logged but already he has been involved in two incidents that have brought adverse attention both to himself and the heli community in Ireland. Not enough to say that there is a pattern developing here but you never know.

500 Fan.

[ketchup]

I asked the FAA in Oklahoma, and was told that the data base takes maximum 40 days from the plastic card being printed for any changes to be updated, so 2007 would be in date.

If in doubt, here is the number of the FAA in Oklahoma: +1-407-812-7700

[wesp]

The pilot in the 300 accident was 38 years old, according the report.

The pilot in the 500 incident is 48 years old, clearly another guy. He had 131.6 hours TT 8.6 P1 on the Hughes

[Bronx]

Pprune sure is a good place to learn about the world.
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.

It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them. :confused:

B

[Lookforshooter]

I used to land in the back of restaurants, at a park, and other places down in Texas...I little different down there I think.

[vaqueroaero]

A student pilot certificate is not a license.

Yes it is.

It is just a license (if you want to get really technical no FAA pilot holds a license, but rather a certificate) that carries heavy restrictions with what you can do with it.

[theRolfe2]

Folks,

Clonshanny does appear to be an incredibly unlucky area.

According to the AAIU someone who lived in the same place as he does and also just happens to own a Hughes 500 arranged to rent a Schweizer Model 300 while his H500 was in the shop. The aircraft then unfortunately ran out of fuel while airborne.

Accident Page (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=10780&lang=ENG&loc=1280)
PDF File (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10780-0.pdf)

According to the report:


1 FACTUAL INFORMATION
1.1 Background
The Pilot operated another helicopter, a turbine powered Hughes 500, on behalf of the owner of this helicopter. The operating base was at the owner’s home at Clonshanny, Co. Offaly. The Hughes 500 was used to transport the owner to work locations throughout Ireland. At the time of the accident, this helicopter was undergoing maintenance and awaiting parts, and it was consequently not available to meet the transportation requirements of the owner. The Pilot of the accident helicopter made arrangements to hire-in the accident helicopter, G-CDTK, in order to meet the owner’s transportation needs. The Pilot contacted a company based at Enniskillen, in Northern Ireland, to hire G-CDTK for approximately 25 hours flying. On Friday 7 September 2007, he traveled to Enniskillen and picked up G-CDTK. He then flew it to the owner’s base at Clonshanny. On the following day, he flew the helicopter from Clonshanny to Cork Airport to deliver a passport. This flight was conducted at a high power setting to combat headwinds. The helicopter was refueled at Cork, taking on 110 Litres of Avgas. The helicopter then returned to Clonshanny. Another local flight, reportedly of approximately 15 minutes duration, was then flown in the local area.
No further flying was done in the helicopter until the accident flight on 12 September 2007.
...
At approximately 15.15 hrs, the helicopter was returning to Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that, at an altitude of 1,000 ft, as he selected the fuel booster pump to “ON”, the engine lost power. At this point the helicopter was within one mile of the base at Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that he initiated an auto-rotation and flared at the “height of a two storey house” The helicopter dropped vertically from this flare and struck the ground hard, without any forward speed.
1.3 Injuries
The Pilot and his passenger suffered injuries, consistent with a heavy vertical impact. The Pilot was discharged from hospital the following day. The passenger suffered spinal injuries that required surgery.
...
1.11 Pilot Interview
The Investigator met with the Pilot a few days after the accident. The Pilot participated fully in the interview. At the Pilot’s request, the owner of the turbine-powered helicopter was also present at this interview. A number of significant points arose. The owner and the Pilot jointly examined G-CDTK for fuel contents prior to the final departure. They both stated that the fuel gauge read about ½ full. They did not have a clean dip-stick but satisfied themselves that the tank was approximately half full by tapping on the outside. The Pilot was questioned about the low fuel warning light. He stated that he did not observe it coming on; in fact he observed no warning lights before the engine stoppage. He stated that he believed there was about 20 minutes duration remaining when the low fuel contents warning light comes on. He also stated that he found the lack of a clock in the cockpit a problem, as he had difficulty in keeping track of the fuel consumption rate without the benefit of a cockpit clock.
...
1.13 Licensing information
The Pilot had a valid Private Pilot’s Licence - Rotorcraft Helicopter with no restrictions, issued by the USA Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), in March 2007. He possessed a valid Second Class medical issued by an FAA-approved medical facility in Ireland.
...
3. CONCLUSIONS
(a) Findings
1. The helicopter engine stopped due to the fuel tank contents being reduced to zero.

[Whirlygig]

unlucky


unfortunately

Luck and fortune don't bear much relationship to fuel consumption! This was a pilot who didn't know whether the tank capacity of the S300 was US or imperial Gallons and thought the low fuel warning light gave you 20 minutes!! Dipstick, fuel guage, a tap on the tank, whatever .... a basic rudimentary mental calculation that about 6 hours flying time on 62 US Gallons is playing fuel roulette!

Cheers

Whirls

[theRolfe2]

Actually I have some pretty strong opinions on this but have chosen to let the facts speak for themselves.

theRolfe

[Stan Switek]

I find it interesting the pilot turned on the aux fuel pump about one mile from home but didn't see a low fuel light.

[RavenII]

I think it's interesting that he's on a student pilot certificate. Does that mean his CFI sign him off for this flight??? :)

Or does that mean it's just another guy in Ireland flying around without a valid licence??? :yuk:

Usually the FAA isn't that slow with updating the page, and it usually never takes longer than 90 days to replace the temporary licence with a real one....

[ketchup]

From Bronx:
Pprune sure is a good place to learn about the world.
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.

It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them.

B

Bronx,

After recent events in Ireland, it is always interesting to see what type of certificate the said pilots have. I do not have a personal grudge against the pilot. I do however have an issue with people exploiting loop holes in aviation law. If you take your time to read through the trend, you might notice that I am in not 'hitting' this person when they are down. I have asked for clarity on regulations and have pointed out that the FAA records say he has a student certificate which I double checked by calling the FAA (a responsible move in my opinion)

Ireland is a very friendly place to work and live, but what I see written here is annoyance and questioning to why this blatant disregard to Irish Aviation law is being challenged. This in turn has given negative press to the helicopter industry once again, at a time when it is the last thing needed.

Just because you have a concealed weapons permit on a US registered gun, it does not allow me to walk around Ireland with it. I'd get arrested and charged. You can not argue this point, if you can, you would make a fantastic barrister.

This case is now becoming much more interesting now that the IAA have made, to my knowledge, the first prosecution of a helicopter pilot for acting in a dangerous manner. I do believe we are going to see many more summons to courts, and not just FAA certified pilots.

In a recent conversation with a friend, I was told that you may 'keep' a US N registered helicopter in the Ireland for a certain amount of time, to memory, 60 days I think. After which, you must either put it on the Irish register or move it out of the country. I have looked for this reg on the IAA website but can't find it so I can't vouch for it.

Also, I was told, that by right, to fly in Ireland on a foreign license, you must apply to the IAA for permission. This permission is to each aircraft that you request and is for a limited time only, again, circa 60 days. Also I have looked for this on the IAA website but couldn't find anything on it.

Maybe Flying Lawyer, Helipolarbear or someone in authority might be able to put some light on a clearly grey area.

[wesp]

In Ireland and the UK you can fly on an Irish/UK registered aircaft without any validation (involvement of the IAA/CAA) as a PPL VFR only so regardless of the license you hold (CPL,ATPL)

To work commercially you would need a validation of your foreign CPL/ATPL, which can only be applied for by an operator, has certain experience levels attached and would be valid for 1 year and can officially not be extended. These validation are rarely given to helicopter pilots unless they have tons of experience and the operator can't get a JAA licensed pilot. You would also have to do an Airlaw exam and flighttest.

A foreign student pilot license/certificate is NOT valid in Ireland. A FAA instructor cannot give flight instruction in Ireland/UK unless also JAA FI and working through a RTF or FTO.

[Flying Lawyer]

ketchupMaybe Flying Lawyer ……………….. might be able to put some light on a clearly grey area.My knowledge of Irish aviation law is very limited. I did a case in Ireland some years ago, but that was assisting a local barrister because I didn't have rights of audience in Ireland. I haven't researched the various issues because I’m no longer permitted to comment on legal matters.
However, even if I was allowed to do so, I wouldn’t unless I knew or found something which might help the pilot.
In stark contrast to you, I'd just let the IAA investigators get on with their job and not say anything on a public forum which might give them ideas and possibly cause problems for a pilot - or more problems for a pilot already in trouble.

Did I miss something or has the IAA once again? I asked the FAA in Oklahoma I have ………. double checked by calling the FAA (a responsible move in my opinion) :confused: A responsible move to double check or a responsible move to take it upon yourself to call the FAA to try to find more information which could make things worse for the pilot?This case is now becoming much more interesting now that the IAA have made, to my knowledge, the first prosecution of a helicopter pilot for acting in a dangerous manner. I do believe we are going to see many more summons to courts, and not just FAA certified pilots.
If you’re right, it will mean more work for aviation lawyers but it will also make life more difficult for pilots in Ireland. (Apart, of course, from the perfect ones who never intentionally breach a regulation, never make a mistake and never make a poor judgment.)
Be careful what you wish for. :rolleyes:


FL

[peterprobe]

You know I hate pilots who are just stupid and don't give a **** about the general safety of anyone but themselves. BUt also in same breath we fly helicopters for gods sake the beauty of them is they can land anywhere (within reason) so now we have to have all these ticks in boxes to land anywhere next thing you know it will be airports only (at a price)

[sycamore]

So,to a casual observer;he flies the owner around the country to the owner`s work; he hires in another helicopter to do similar jobs; he only has an FAA ppl; the second aircraft is UK registered;he does not have an Irish or UK licence,and/or UK residence? If ,he only has an FAA licence,how can he fly a UK registered helo,without a valid type rating--the rest of us have to have one,for each type? He is obviously very rich,as he must pay half of the operating costs,for his friend`s trips to work,which we all know he does,as a friendly PPL,or ,would that be too presumptious???

Later;Strange that it doesn`t feature on the UK AAIB investigations site,even though someone was seriously injured; and the UK de-registered the a/c a
week later !!
Even later; and according to the Accident report,the a/c was overdue an inspection,by `adjusting `times incorrectly, invalidating the Cof A...!

[ketchup]

Man gets ban over helicopter incident RTE
Monday, 24 November 2008 20:56
A 50-year-old man who landed a helicopter on the roof of a shopping centre in Athlone to get keys cut has been convicted of breaching aviation law.

Sean O'Brien of the Island, Ballycumber, Co Offaly, was also warned by Judge David Anderson at a sitting of the district court in Athlone that he faced a six-month prison sentence in Mountjoy if he tried to take control of any flying machine in the next 12 months.

Mr O'Brien landed his single engine helicopter on the roof of Texas Shopping Centre on 7 July last year.

The court was told it was illegal under aviation law to land an aircraft of this kind on any elevated helipad in this State.

[B Sousa]

and the FAA database doesn't lie

Oh Yes it does and so does the FAA........

Helicopters in many parts of the world are a new fangled thing. Im sure he could have landed there legally had he contacted the garage owner, paid a Fee, the whatever CAA and paid a fee and a few other people and paid a fee. Otherwise hes a bad person........Nice to know that fees make you whole again.

Landed in so many backyards I cant count them, never had a problem, probably because I never flew in Europe.....

Have to agree on one thing, he should have known he was going to catch problems. I think if in fact he was running on a PPL or a students license he probably did what he did because he didnt know any better. In which case a spanking is required.

[Bronx]

The court heard that the downwash from the helicopter's landing would have been strong enough to lift a person off the roof of the car park.
"Captain John Steel, an aeronautical officer with the IAA, said the downwash of the helicopter as it landed would be sufficient to move a person over the 1.5 metre barrier surrounding the car park."
It was a Hughes 500! :rolleyes:

He said the aircraft O'Brien was operating was not permitted to land on a heliport above 10 metres for safety reasons. :confused:

Asked by State Solicitor Peter Jones if he did not like the IAA, the pilot said they were "very selective" about who they investigate.Going by the local petty politics in some of the posts here maybe he's got a point.

[Fleep]

Irish Times-Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Pilot who landed on car park roof banned

A MAN who flew 12 miles in a borrowed helicopter and then landed on the roof of a multi-storey car park in the middle of Athlone on a Saturday afternoon to get a set of keys cut was banned from flying for 12 months yesterday. Seán O'Brien (50), The Island, Ballycumber, Co Offaly, was before Judge David Anderson at Athlone District Court on charges brought by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) after landing on roof of the Texas shopping centre on July 7th last year. The most serious of the charges was one of reckless endangerment after a security guard who tried to wave the helicopter away had his hand slightly injured by the effect the downdraft had on a large door he tried to shelter behind. A civil action on this is still pending. O'Brien also faced charges of breaches of rules about altitude and landing procedures and other technical matters. O'Brien, who is single, unemployed and supported by his grandmother, claimed he had permission to land on the building. He claimed heliport landings were statistically so safe that each one only had an accident every 344 years. "From the time of Da Vinci?" asked the judge. However, Capt John Steele, for the IAA, told the court the landing site was not a proper heliport but a multi-storey car park. O'Brien accused the IAA of "making rules that are unworkable". The judge said he was satisfied the defendant manoeuvred the helicopter with blatant disregard, either through ignorance or lack of comprehension of fundamental rules of the game. Suggesting that the alternative would be six months in Mountjoy, the judge put O'Brien on a bail bond for one year, the main condition of which is that he will not fly during that period.
This article appears in todays print edition of the Irish Time

[maxvne]

I have to agree with Bronx, what a stupid statement from Steel about the downwash enough to blow somebody off the roof, and he claims to be a pilot??? I reckon he was just after a conviction and would say anything to get it, I hope he is happy, what a numpty.

[HillerBee]

The statement was 'a person' and I'm sure the downwash would be able to blow away a 2-6 year old child.

[B Sousa]

Captain John Steel, an aeronautical officer with the IAA, said the downwash of the helicopter as it landed would be sufficient to move a person over the 1.5 metre barrier surrounding the car park."
Here come the experts.........I think if I was a Person and saw a Helicopter landing, I would move.........not rocket science here.
Bottom line is the guy used bad judgment. What gets me is how all the experts will now fall in line like a row of ducks and quack, quack, quack.

[birrddog]

Granted he has to wait 12 months, but better than having his ticket pulled.

I don't know which side of the fence I'm on in this particular case (that 500's downdraft did not knock me down to one side or another ;)).....

It is unfortunate incident none-the-less.

One part of me says these built-up area restrictions are nonsense - you can't legislate against Darwinism (there are many other ways people can get injured or worse in a built up area than a helicopter landing on a raised car parking lot);

though is a pilot he should be responsible for ensuring he has permission (almost said "is welcome" :bored:) to land where he is going.... whether it is deemed a suitable and safe landing area or not.

What the suitable punishment or reaction should be to the latter part I don't know....

[corsair]

In fact he was convicted on the basis of law. The Rules of the Air state:

In this case of particular relevance is S.I. 61 of 2006 The IAA Operations Order; Article 51(3)(b) Only a helicopter operated in Performance Class 1 shall be permitted to operate from elevated heliports in congested areas.

And:

S.I. 216 of 2005 further states:
(d) in the case of a rotorcraft or balloon, not being used for public transport, any place where the aircraft may take-off or land without undue hazard to persons or property and in respect of which the owner or occupier of that place shall have given permission for such use, except that, in the case of a rotorcraft, where that place is of an elevated construction, located on the roof of a building or a structure, it shall also be licensed by the Authority under this Order for such use by that rotorcraft. 5

Taken from the accident investigation report.

Simple as that.

He could still have his license pulled. The IAA has been designated to oversee FAA pilots and aircraft based in Ireland. No doubt a report has been sent to the Feds. This may not be over.

[Topperharvey]

There is a bigger issue here than what happened like the fact that that the pilot in question did hand over all log books in his possesion to a member of the IAA in the presence of a member of the Garda Siochanna which have then been conviently lost or the fact that that the IAA seem to prosecute only certain members of the Aviation comunity here in Ireland.The ones that don't always have a certain connection such as a certain pilot who flew EI-ECA which had a wheels up landing that was never repoted to the IAA or the same pilot that flew EI-CQG that hit the fuel bowser in Weston what a convient report that made nothing to do with the fact that he is an ex-member of tye irish air corps or that his father is a certain position holder in the IAA.Or like the Agusta 109 also flown by Ex air-corps personnel who clipped a tail rotor going into a private site where is the report on that one all very conviently swept under the carpet.Nothing to do with the IAA / AIIU being like a retirement home for these guys.
Also how many of the AIIU members actually have a degree in Air Accident Investigation or completed a course.
Is it only the people who stand up against them when questioning their practices that get prosecuted.

"Captain John Steel, an aeronautical officer with the IAA, said the downwash of the helicopter as it landed would be sufficient to move a person over the 1.5 metre barrier surrounding the car park." This statement was actually made by a Licenced Helicopter pilot who is he trying to dupe.

[ragman20]

It seems he wasnt the only Irish Pilot in court, in Dublin court room was Eddie Walsh fighting the IAA and also losing against low flying over dublin

[flushthemout]

Regarding the incident and Judgement of the pilot, I believe he has gotten away very lightly.
Topperharvey,
I think your a little off point here. This is the first of many cases taken by the IAA. The AAIU have missed a number of accidents and near misses. I'm not defending them. I just read EI-CQG report and it seams fair, or should it read different?
Ragman20,
Does the AAIU have a report out on that case?
B Sousa,
Might I suggest if anyone sees Capt. John Steel walking near a helicopter in the hover to get a photo and post it on PPRUNE.

[helikiwi34]

what is the world coming to when a man cant land his machine to get his keys cut!

was lucky he didnt get it clamped!:=

[Heliport]

flushthemout - Probationary PprunerRegarding the incident and Judgement of the pilot, I believe he has gotten away very lightly.



Why the change of username ketchup? :=
Did you just want to post agreeing with yourself?

Or did you realise your previous posts on this thread had blown any credibility ketchup might ever have had? :rolleyes:


Are you vindictive by nature or do you work for the IAA?
Or both?


Great username - 'flushthemout'.
You've been flushed.

[ketchup]

Heliport,

Ketchup is my only name that I use here, and I am being careful for what I wish for after FL's words of wisdom.

K

[fixedwing4]

From what i hear on the "Weston Front", Alan Walsh got done for accepting a 1000" clearance accross the city and not requesting 1500", apparently an eye witness who just happened to be walking along the quays, and who just happened to be an IAA inspector reported the "incident",... should the controller not have been dragged in there with him?......how convenient for them:D.... would they not be better off spending their time looking down (instead of up) for small people in case they get "blown off their feet" into the Liffey by passing Hughs 500's :O!!!!!!

[fixedwing4]

Sorry ....Eddie Walsh.., not Alan walsh, Alan is afraid to tell his wife she's a bad cook, never mind fly a helicopter !!!:E

[ketchup]

And the winner of the Darwin award goes to the Pilot who just landed twice on the roof of Killiney Castle Hotel Dublin in a Bell 206. Loads of flash photography from all the public on the hill looking down at you. :D

[funfinn2000]

i wonder who that was??

[RavenII]

Maybe the pilot confused the Hotel with Bono's backyard..........(Twice)

[ketchup]

YouTube - Killiney (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=cGLXWiS1wu4)

[Pink Panther]

Oh dear,:}
Elavated helipad and all that good stuff, interesting indeed.:E

[Rotorhead412]

Hardly a Dejavu!!!?? Hope not, the less o this lark the better, we've enough to deal with without giving the public more and more reasons to complain and in turn get strict(er) rules planked on top of us!! Urrrr! :ugh:

[7AC]

I think this is in court again today, any news.

[loweskid]

Yes, here - BBC News - Man fined for landing helicopter on shopping centre (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8412722.stm)

Man fined for landing helicopter on shopping centre


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46919000/jpg/_46919269_helicopter.jpg Mr O'Brien landed the helicopter on the shopping centre roof (picture by James Flynn)

A man who landed a helicopter on the roof of a shopping centre in Athlone, County Westmeath, so he could collect keys, has been fined 5,000 euros.
Sean O'Brien, 50, of Ballycumber, County Offaly, was convicted on 10 charges relating to the incident at the Parkrite Texas Centre, in July 2007.
As well as the fine, he was given a six-month suspended prison sentence.
He claimed to have been applying "completely different" flying instructions acquired in the US.
However, the judge at Athlone District Court asked him: "You are telling me in Florida there are no regulations in relation to landing a helicopter on top of a supermarket."
Although there were 10 separate charges, Judge Anderson said the one overriding charge was that of "dangerous and negligent" use of a helicopter.
The remaining nine charges would be taken into consideration, he added.
'Never again'
Admitting he should not have landed in Athlone, or dropped below 1,500ft in a built up area, Mr O'Brien said: "I would never do that again."
He described his own actions as dangerous due to the lack of a designated landing area on the roof of the shopping centre.
But Judge David Anderson said: "Mr O'Brien still doesn't understand why he shouldn't land on a supermarket."
Had there been an accident, people could have been 'toasted' in a serious fire, he added.
"The defendant now displays no grasp whatsoever of the rules, common sense, that is where he has difficulty," the judge said.
Solicitor Tom Madden said his client was a man of "no means" who did not own the helicopter and is now on disability.

[JTobias]

If you ask me the whole thing is ridiculous. Fancy not having a designated area for helicopters. If it were me I wouldn't shop there again!

Joel ;)

[Trans Lift]

O'Brien should be sent to Mountjoy as he obviously is an ignorant man who doesn't care or have a clue about rules, other people or how to be a pilot. Read this, it was the same guy! I especially like the "pilot interview" part. Shows how much he doesn't know. A schweizer has 20 mins of fuel left when the low fuel light comes on, really??!:ugh:

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10780-0.pdf


Gotta love Ireland and its politics and cowboys!!:}

[birrddog]

He claimed to have been applying "completely different" flying instructions acquired in the US. Like that small paragraph in 14 CFR Part 91.703 (2) that states
"When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;"

[Trans Lift]

As if the idiot even knows what a FAR/AIM is. He trained in HAI (Bristow), heard bad stories about him there too.