RN helicopters vs Saddam's Navy

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Cast your mind back to 1991. Quite rightly, the RAF units flying against Saddam's forces and the Army got the lion's share of news coverage. However, there was also a naval aspect to Desert Storm/Granby. It did get covered by TV and media reporters, yet did it register with the public?

Saddam's Navy was more or less completely destroyed. One of the main weapons used by the coalition was the Sea Skua, launched from Lynx from RN frigates/destroyers. Although it is unoffical and may not be entirely accurate, this page on the Royal Navy and the Gulf (http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/Feature/gulf.htm) discussed Lynx operations.

Six Lynx helicopters (armed with Sea Skua Air to Sea Missiles) .were sent from 829 Naval Air Squadron (NAS) to the Gulf on four Royal Navy frigates. In total the Lynx helicopter was responsible for 15 Iraqi ship kills, at least five of which were made by a single helicopter, Lynx 335 of H.M.S Cardiff. The various confrontations are detailed below:

Lynx 335 from Cardiff together with an American Sea Hawk destroy a target, believed to be a minesweeper or landing vessel, marking the first Royal Navy success of the war.

Lynx helicopters from Type 42 destroyers Cardiff and Gloucester are dispatched with US forces to destroy two anti-aircraft batteries that had been constructed on oil platforms off the coast of Kuwait. 12 Iraqis were captured in the process becoming the first prisoners of war (POWs).

24th January: Lynx 335 attacks three Iraqi vessels, sinking two minesweepers, off the Island of Quarah. Cardiff 's Lynx tries to capture a minelayer but the Iraqi crew scuttle the vessel and 22 are taken prisoner. The island is later captured.

29th January: A flotilla of 17 landing craft, part of an attempted Iraqi amphibious assault on the town of Khafji, is spotted and engaged by Royal Navy Lynx helicopters. Flights from Brazen and Gloucester attack and sink one vessel while Lynx 335 from Cardiff sinks another. The remainder are damaged, destroyed or dispersed by American carrier based aircraft and Royal Navy Sea King helicopters.

30th January: A convoy consisting of 3 Polnochny class landing ships, three TNC- 45 fast attack craft and a single Type 43 minelayer (also part of the attempted assault on Khafji) is identified. H.M.S Gloucester's Lynx destroys a TNC-45 with Cardiff and Brazen's helicopters attacking the T43. Gloucester's Lynx then destroys the other two TNC45's. Other units were damaged including a Polnochny that was later destroyed by RAF Jaguar aircraft.

8th February: Lynx 335 attacks a Zhuk class patrol boat.

11th February: Lynx 335 attacks and sinks another Zhuk Class patrol boat.

15th February: H.M.S Manchester's Lynx helicopter sinks a salvage vessel named Aka.

16th February: H.M.S Gloucester's Lynx destroys a Polonchy class landing craft.

The destruction of 15 Iraqi vessels by a small number of helicopters shows that shipborne helicopters can make a major contribution to operations. The effectiveness of arming naval helicopters with anti ship missiles was demonstrated. One of the reasons allied commanders wanted the threat from missile boats removed so that mine clearance operations in the Northern Gulf could start, part of the bluff that meant Saddam kept six divisions in coastal Kuwait, waiting for an amphibious assault. So although the war was mostly on land and in the air seapower had a strategic effect.

Did/does the RN, and the Lynx in particular, get the recognition it deserves?

Twelve years later during the early stages of Operation Telic, a Sea King HC4 sunk a patrol boat with machine gun fire. The engagement has been mentioned on PPRuNe and in this article (http://74.125.39.104/search?q=cache:KyxKJ1ng1bcJ:www.timripley.co.uk/articles/iraq_war.pdf+sea+king+hc4+iraqi+boat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&ie=UTF-8) by Tim Ripley (also in PDF format (www.timripley.co.uk/articles/iraq_war.pdf)). Understandably perhaps this did not make the TV news, but it doesn't seem to be mention on the RN or MOD website either. Why not?

[minigundiplomat]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[AllTrimDoubt]

Was there. It's history. And your point?

Couldn't you develop a fetish for Challenger II and go bother ARRSE?

[taxydual]

WE

It registered.

The 'Boat People'* certainly did their stuff.

Them that know, know. Them that don't know, don't matter.

BZ




*Boat People. noun. A term of 'affection' for the Royal Navy. Promulgated in PPRuNe by BEagle.

:ok:

[seakinger]

Twelve years later during the early stages of Operation Telic, a Sea King HC4 sunk a patrol boat with machine gun fire. The engagement has been mentioned on PPRuNe and in this article (http://74.125.39.104/search?q=cache:KyxKJ1ng1bcJ:www.timripley.co.uk/articles/iraq_war.pdf+sea+king+hc4+iraqi+boat&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk&ie=UTF-8) by Tim Ripley (also in PDF format (http://www.timripley.co.uk/articles/iraq_war.pdf)). Understandably perhaps this did not make the TV news, but it doesn't seem to be mention on the RN or MOD website either. Why not?
I was HP for the incident and it wasnt really that interesting...:oh:
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[The Helpful Stacker]

Did the Andrew lose any iPods or other electronic media storage devices to enemy action during the Lynx engagements?

[tucumseh]

One of the main weapons used by the coalition was the Sea Skua, launched from Lynx from RN frigates/destroyers.


All this is common knowledge, but it is the background detail and relationship with other threads that interest me. In particular, the Nimrod thread.

Of course one can't go into detail, but the system you speak of had major problems some months before (1990). The process of "maintaining the build standard" was carried out properly in those days, and the problem was solved. If the same problem occurred today, demonstrably it would either (a) be ignored and the risk borne or (b) subjected to 18 months red tape and delay. As opposed to diagnosed and fixed inside 48 hours.

Times change, not always for the better. In that sense WEBF, your post is a timely reminder.

[chopper2004]

Read Richard Bosweell's Weapons Free, great insight into him entering the FAA and qualified on the Lynx and then engaging Iraqi vessels during Desert Storm.

[Data-Lynx]

taxydual. Some prefer the more specialised usage of the 'Boat People from Poole'; a reference to that select bunch of RMs (mostly) with a penchant for rubber and silent anti-social activity at night.

[tonker]

This was being filmed by Sky or somebody at the time, and a film crew covered an attack on some small patrol type vessels.

I remember vividly an American friend mouthing WTF as the pilot of the Lynx said "common you little piglets"

Amazing what you remember considering i struggle with my kids names, my d.o.b etc.

[orca]

WEBF,

I am sure that you're doing this in parallel, but the way to influence the conciousness of the public isn't through forums inhabited by like minded people....it's continually prodding fleet media, Navy News and national media et al.

I can clearly remember all the events you speak of - albeit from the view point of an interested school boy. I find your point about a strategic impact debatable - whilst being impressed by the tactical impact the chaps did unquestionably have.

Lastly, and perhaps a little off topic, I believe that we're talking about nine actions and 15 dpi's serviced. There are RN/FAA units deployed as we speak that have serviced far more, far more recently - what effect this represents is again questionable, and i in no way demean one, or favour the other.

Maybe we should be trying to highlight those achievements? And let's not forget they are only a small part of the joint/combined piece. (And in a world with no banter we'd all acknowledge the part played by all the cogs...whether tactical/ strategic etc etc.)

Great effort by the lynx chaps. Sterling effort by those still at the crease.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Restored Saddam-busting Lynx donated to Fleet Air Museum (http://www.navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/4581) - Navy News

[jungliebeefer]

Having just read through this article I can only say what a complete load of Single Service rubbish. Funny how a joint assault Commanded by CHF utilising Chinook and SK4 turns into an RAF Chinook and Puma assault supported by SK4. Oh well shouldn't have expected any different I suppose...

[ramp_up]

Don't forget the Lynx / Gaz duo. CS Hokum and Menece or more aptly known as hinge and bracket as they later became on the ATO. "Ah look a transit route lets fire some TOW cables across it to get in the way of the CH47 with the USL".

[Evalu8ter]

Junglie Beefer,
Hmm, 250 Royals in 5 CH47s v 8x SK4 carrying 6 each for around 50? And who lifted the WMKs and heavy weapons? (I won't mention the BV....:eek:)Think it was a MH53 and CH47 assault supported by SK4...not forgetting the efforts of the Phrog drivers :sad: (and much later, the Pumas). None of the first 4 waves came from the ship..only the later logs ripple/reinforcement did...but the RN conveniently choose to ignore that fact when mentioning how big an "amphib assault" it was.

Unfortunately all of the services are media obsessed trying to justify their toys in an age of austerity...sad, but true.

[Tiger_mate]

Never let the truth detract from a good story. A mantra I am familiar with especially when career progression is at stake. The only difference with this is that it is another example of single service self preservation; all of which is getting tedious by the day.

[Lonewolf_50]

I have tried to find a copy of an article written by LT Burton T Palmer, USN, officer in charge on the USS Paul F Foster (DD-964) whose helicopters worked with the RN Lynx in some of the targeting and destruction of the Iraqi naval vessels in 1991. (Burt is a good egg). I had hoped to add it to this thread, but for the life of me I can't find it on the net.

It seems that his article, (possibly in US Naval Institute Proceedings some years ago) did not make it into the digital age.

About all I found was passing mention of this operation tied to one of his junior officers -- Dave Manero.

Of course, I found this in the Congressional record, courtesy of Trent Lott, US Senator, which made me laugh. It's in the second paragraph of the nice things said about Dave "Tony" Manero below.

If I can ever find a link to Burt's original article, I'll offer it up.

Congressional Record, Volume 148 Issue 126 (Tuesday, October 1, 2002) (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2002-10-01/html/CREC-2002-10-01-pt1-PgS9704.htm)

From what I recall of Burt's article, and some discussions with him years ago, over beers, the APS-124 radar on the Seahawk, and SH-60B's its relatively long legs, allowed the Seahawk to act as "mini E-2" to help the Lynx, who had to re-arm and refuel I seem to recall, get back into the target area with Sea Skua. Memory does not serve well, however.

At that time, USN helicopters didnt' carry Air to ground weapons, but could carry torpedoes. Good thing the Lynx were about! :ok:

That has changed, as the Penguin mod and Hellfire mod have since been fitted.

[FODPlod]

Hmm, 250 Royals in 5 CH47s v 8x SK4 carrying 6 each for around 50?...

Shome mishtake, shurely? This is only a Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King) but I have more authoritative sources showing the same data:

Sea King HC.4 / Westland Commando
...Capable of transporting 28 fully equipped troops...P.S. I was embarked in GLO where I watched footage taken by Mike Nicholson's cameraman when her Lynx took out some of the Iraqi TNC-45s.

[tucumseh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
Hmm, 250 Royals in 5 CH47s v 8x SK4 carrying 6 each for around 50?...

Shome mishtake, shurely? This is only a Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King) but I have more authoritative sources showing the same data:

Quote:
Sea King HC.4 / Westland Commando
...Capable of transporting 28 fully equipped troops...
P.S. I was embarked in GLO where I watched footage taken by Mike Nicholson's cameraman when her Lynx took out some of the Iraqi TNC-45s. Evaluator is much nearer the mark!

The primary role of the Mk4 fleet was always to "effect a simultaneous two Company lift of Royal Marines". (It didn't actually say for what distance, but was later clarified as a xx hour insertion flight).

In the early 80s, just as they were being delivered (!) it was known this could not be met, not least because the addition of very heavy EW kit had to be offset by either a reduction in fuel or troops. Westland used to have a presentation which included the option of enough fuel to take off (then quickly land) but you weren't allowed a pilot. Tongue in cheek, it always got a laugh, but it got the point across.


So, the Merlin buy was to be 108, with ASW as primary role, Commando secondary. This number was current from 1983 to about 1989 (the notional ISD of Merlin, which wasn't met). There was a modification developed to swap roles (remove sonics, insert seats). Under one design option, the radar was to be retained and the Mk4s retro-fitted with the old Mk2 radar (a scheme only abandoned in about 1995).

However, in practice, the RN didn't need 108 Merlin ASWs, so everyone knew there would be about 40+ permanently in Commando role; to supplement, not replace, Mk4. This fact is what gives lie to historical MoD and Government claims that support helicopter numbers are sufficient, and have always been so. Numerically, the FAA have been around 40 short for 30+ years (against the stated requirement, which has fallen by the wayside and quietly forgotten as it is impossible to meet).

I always wondered why the brass didn't throw this fact back at the Government over the last decade when lack of SH was uppermost in the public's mind and getting lots of press. It was an ideal opportunity. Shame on the staffs who wrote the briefs for Ministers.

The above is open source, as it was cleared by MoD PR when Ferranti asked if they could publicise the forthcoming contract to supply Blue Kestrel radars for 108 Merlins.

[Wirbelsturm]

The initial engagement was with British Waste_of_Space after the first firings of the 'Sea Skimming' Skua were found to be a little on the 'conservative' side, clearing the freeboard of Saddam's 'ships' by some clear margin.

A large amount of Flash signal traffic later and the Skua * was born!

Amazing how quick procurement can be in times of adversity.

Also the Mk3 was a bugger to keep cool in the Gulf. Lots of hastily cut slots, vents, grooves, intakes and BDR tape saved the day!

[Evalu8ter]

FodPlod,
SK4 - 28 troops? Maybe in cold weather, no armour, guns or other role kit and an effective range of next to nothing.

A lot of manufacturers use this type of blurb; yes, you can fit 28 people inside a SK, or fly for 3 hours, or carry a full DAS/armour/role fit or carry a light gun. Note the lack of the word (and) in the previous sentance. The same can be said of Merlin. The Chinook can do all of the above at the same time; not a boast, just a statement of fact that highlights the sheer performance of the beast. I was flying one of the CH47s that night and was involved with the planning. The combination of armour, wind direction/strength and high ambient temperature robbed the SK4 of a substantial chunk of its performance. I'm minded to think that to get around the route they were actually plugged in to bowsers to keep topping up to min fuel before they launched. Not a dig at the crews - blimey it was scary enough flying a Chinook that night, BZ to the CHF boys involved.

Tuc is quite correct about the original 108 Merlin buy for the FAA; the reduction to 40ish pinging frames was a large part of the arm-twisting that Westlands used to force the govt to buy the RAF the Mk3...oh, and using lots and lots of "it can lift 28 troops" style spin.

[tucumseh]

The initial engagement was with British Waste_of_Space after the first firings of the 'Sea Skimming' Skua were found to be a little on the 'conservative' side, clearing the freeboard of Saddam's 'ships' by some clear margin.

A large amount of Flash signal traffic later and the Skua * was born!

Amazing how quick procurement can be in times of adversity.I'm probably not allowed to say too much here, but the main problem with Lynx/Sea Skua in the run up to GW1 was solved by a Ferranti radar engineer from South Gyle in one visit to Portland NAS. Long time ago, but (a) radar not being set up properly after a Signal Processor or Receiver Duplexer change (LRUs were not truly interchangeable and a null had to be set, but there are two nulls and you have to pick the correct one) and (b) pilots flying too high on firing run (only x degrees manual tilt on radar, so target not being painted properly and losing lock, reacquiring sea clutter >> Skua into oggin).

Not a case of "procurement" being quick, but of the correct contract being let at the correct time. RAF suppliers under Alcock soon saw to that aberration; if it had happened 2 years later you'd still be waiting for a fix. >>>>>> Direct link to Haddon-Cave.

[Biggus]

Reference the 28 troops in a SK4, just remember that in a similar fashion you can get 26 people in a mini, honestly...... :ok:


Video: 26 people in a Mini Cooper sets new World Record - egmCarTech (http://www.egmcartech.com/2011/01/27/video-26-people-in-a-mini-cooper-sets-new-world-record/)

[jungliebeefer]

I didn't find the article rubbish because of the lift capacity of the Chinook vs Sea King ... we all know that there is a huge difference. What I found disappointing is that a joint operation flown by professional crews from both services, was turned by one boss into a "look how much the RAF can do" and to some extent denigrated the contribution of the RN contingent. The reality is that we (CHF+RAF) achieved a rapid build up of Bootie strength on the Al Faw in demanding flying condition that could not have matched by either cadre solo.

[Evalu8ter]

JB,
Quite so, but DP was asked directly about the CH47 contribution and answered it. At SO2 and below the crews all mucked in with professionalism and a healthy mixture of banter and respect - unfortunately this doesn't stop the higher ups attempting to airbrush history to serve their own agendas....