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pabarret
2nd Oct 2008, 17:33
Hi all,
Apologies for a vague question. I can't seem to find an EASA appoved school in Oz, so I was wondering if a guy went to australia and got a CASA ATPL by going the integrated route would it be costly to convert this to the EASA equivalent? The reason I ask this is that I have family in Oz and the current euro v Aus dollar rate is quite atractive. Or would I be better off go to the States and do it there with an Easa approved school?

pabarret
2nd Oct 2008, 18:15
Will do,
Many thanks.

Tinstaafl
4th Oct 2008, 02:59
You won't get an ATPL. You'll get an Oz CPL + Oz ATPL exams (if you choose) + Oz Command Instrument Rating (if you choose). In the Oz system the equivalent of the 'integrated' route is the 150 hr (minimum flight training time) commercial course.

To obtain an Oz ATPL you would then need to accrue 1500 hrs flight time, ~100hrs night (command/P1 not dual/PUT, I think. Can't remember) plus various other experience requirements within that total time. You will have to have a current command IR to apply for the ATPL so quite a few people wait 'til they're nearer the ATPL min. experience requirements before training for their IR. Also in Oz, unlike the JAA system, ATPL exams can't substitute for the CPL exams. You have to do the CPL ones (for the CPL) + the ATPL ones (for the ATPL).

How to get to 1500 hrs becomes the problem. Instructing & working in the outback are the common ways.

Don't forget that only the licence you currently hold is what is recognised when you decide to convert to the JAA licence - not any exams you've done as a prerequisite for the issue of some other licence. So no use doing the Oz ATPL exams if you're not able to hang around long enough to get the Oz ATPL issued.

You could do the JAA CPL exam to convert to the JAA CPL but then you'd still have to do the JAA ATPL exams at some point. You may as well do the JAA ATPL exams which will credit you for the CPL exams too. I think the JAA ATPL exams also cover the IR exams? Not sure about that one.

You'll still have to do the JAA flight tests no matter which way you choose.

pabarret
4th Oct 2008, 11:29
Western Australia Aviation College has got an integrated JAA ATPL course in Perth, it involves 52 weeks in Perth and then 8 in Cranfield doing conversions and an MCC. Has anyone on here gone down this route and does anyone have any reccomendations?

pabarret
4th Oct 2008, 11:31
Thanks Tinstaafl didnt know that was the amount of hours required to do the CASA ATPL.

redsnail
4th Oct 2008, 12:30
You need 1,500 hours for a JAA ATPL too.

Charlie Foxtrot India
4th Oct 2008, 13:28
Think about doing PPL and hour build up to 175 hours in Aus, then return to UK for exams, medicals etc and modular course.

Way cheaper and more flexible than integrated.

Tinstaafl
5th Oct 2008, 02:25
Pabarret, like many people, you seem to be labouring under the misunderstanding that at the completion of your flying training you would hold an ATPL. Not so. You would hold a CPL + whatever ratings you add to that licence. Depending on what exams you pass you could also have exam credits towards an ATPL. I think this common misunderstanding is because of the entrenched use of the term 'frozen ATPL' in JAA-land. 'fATPL' is nothing more than a convenient shorthand to describe holding a CPL + IR + passes in all the ATPL theory exams.

At some later date, having accrued the ATPL min. experience (1500hr total + various subtotals is pretty much the standard throughout the world) and pass a flight test of some form you could then apply for an ATPL.


Similarly to CFI, I tend think that modular training is more cost effective, and taking advantage of Oz or USA training & rental rates - especially when currency rates are accounted for - would usually save money. Even so you must still allow for licence conversion costs on your return to JAR-la-la land. About the only time I'd recommend integrated training at the usually exorbitant rates is if a guaranteed *permanent* job is included after completing the course.

Charlie Foxtrot India
5th Oct 2008, 03:21
In addition to TINSTAAFLs post, if you just do PPL and hour build here, (forget getting all sorts of Aus quals which you only need if you will be flying commercially here) then go to JAR land for modular, there is in fact nothing to convert (you can fly there on an Aus PPL then go straight to JAR CPL) and associated costs, or repeating things.

Pilot In Command time is what so many people lack, and Aus is a great place to get it and have the holiday of a lifetime in an aeroplane; get some REAL experience rather than being spoon fed an expensive integrated course.

(FWIW I have CAA and Aus CPL).

JamesTigris
5th Oct 2008, 17:54
Does anyone have any experience of heading from the UK/Europe out to Australia for flying/training?

I am considering CFI's route of going for a flying holiday in Oz (to visit family) and using it to build a chunk of hours pre-CPL.

What are the hoops to jump through? What are the typical types available and what is an approximate cost to expect per hour? Where is the best area geographically for flying schools?

Any recommended schools to help me start my search would be appreciated.

redsnail
5th Oct 2008, 18:34
If you don't know already, get a doctor to check you for diabetes and colour blindness. You can find the medical standards required on the JAA site. Look for JAR-FCL 3. (http://www.jaa.nl/publications/section1.html)

If your goal is to ultimately get a JAA or EASA licence then study LASORS from the UK CAA's site.

To find out what the requirements are in Australia, read here. (http://www.casa.gov.au/pilots/index.htm) CASA is the Australian regulator. PPLs are fairly easily transferred from one ICAO state to the other.

So, where to go? All major capital cities have flying schools. Oxford has just recently bought GFS in Melbourne. In Perth, there is a JAA accredited flying school.

Personally, I'd go to where you want to go. Build some hours and have a holiday. Perth's great and Minovation's boss is British and knows both systems pretty well. (her PPRuNe nick is Charlie Foxtrot India) :ok:

Contrary to popular belief, the wx in Australia can be a challenge and navigation in the outback will really test your skills. Assuming you leave the GPS at home. There's other things to think about when flying in Australia. Remote area considerations and regulations. There is also controlled airspace too. etc.

Look for a good instructor who'll follow the syllabus, instil good airmanship and have fun too. The PPL is for fun. :ok: It's the rest that becomes hard work... :{

pabarret
5th Oct 2008, 20:10
Ok. I think that after a litle bit of research and consideration CFIs suggestion seems to be a good one, I had been misguided by what I had been reading in the glossy bochures, I also hadn't made out the difference beween a frozen ATPL and an ATPL. Does anyone have an approx hourly rate for PPL training here?

Tinstaafl
10th Oct 2008, 18:34
Something to consider: If you gain an Oz or FAA CPL + IR you will have the advantage of doing most of your training at the cheaper rates. It also means that on the return to the UK there is no minimum training requirement before sitting the CPL flight test and only 15 hrs required for the IR test. For the old UK national licence you were also excused from having to do the morse code & radio practical tests.

You would still have to do the 14 ATPL exams but that's pretty unavoidable. Don't forget the JAR ATPL exams give credit for the CPL too, unlike Oz or the US. Caution though: Unless you have the hours for the ATPL to be issued you will have to keep your IR current to maintain the ATPL exam credit for when you eventually reach the 1500 hrs.

Unless things have changed you can also save a bundle on the UK Class 1 medical. When I converted to the UK ATPL I was able to take advantage of a procedure that gives some credit for holding a foreign professional licence + class one medical. I've forgotten the details (it was nearly ten years ago so things might have changed) however it involved arriving in the UK with a current Class 1 (duh), an audiogram, an ECG, chest xray & maybe an opthalmologist report. The UK CAA may have sent a form to me to have the Dr complete too. Having all of that done meant that I could transfer my Oz Class 1 instead of having to go through the whole UK initial issue crap.

A lot of the medical stuff in Oz I was able to do under medicare by getting a referral from my GP. All in all it saved hundreds of pounds. You would need to talk to the CAA medical branch to see whether this option is still available.

DeltaT
10th Oct 2008, 20:38
I don't know your flying background, but don't forget you also need 500 Multi Crew hours for the JAA ATPL too!

nicky7789
13th Nov 2009, 08:08
Is way better if you come ECU (Edith Cowan University) located at Joondalup, north of Perth. They teaches you aviation at that University and you can get CPL + CIR + FIR without having a PPL. The course is about 3 years. First and second year is just ground courses and on the third year, you have to fly. Cost is about A$60k. But, theres a shortest way to become a commercial pilot. Lets say I wanna become a Qantas Pilot and instead of going to University and study aviation course, I study first degree or other courses, once I graduate, heres what I can do. Since I have no idea on plane, I can do what I say "self-sponsored CPL." Cost are likely to be the same because is just a CPL training and after the training, they will send you back to Australia or different country to give you ATPL training..

duggie1979
13th Nov 2009, 11:56
Hi pabarrett,a fellow irish man here.
I have just started a PPL here in Oz.I am doing it with a school at Parafield, which is in the north Adelaide.Parafield airport has 4 or 5 schools to choose from,the one that i have went with is Bruce Hartwigs. So far so good,It is well equiped, and my training a/c is a Diamond DA 20,cool plane to train in. I hope to have my PPL knocked off in about 10 weeks!!It can be done with a bit of hard work .
You can expect to pay 14 - 15k AUD by the time you are done.My instructer informs me that the average is 57 hours flying time to achieve a PPL .
When i have completed PPL i hope to fly around the country building hours and experience.
Ill warn you,it gets fking hot!!It was 32 at 9 am this morn and creeping up as the day went on to 40.That sort of heat doesnt help the concentration much.
I am trying to keep my flights as early as possible because its cooler,and there is less traffic in the training area!
Feel free to message me .Best of luck!:ok: