Blues if not flying

[sunshine band]

Hot off the press. From now on, if you are not due to fly on a given day, you ARE TO wear blues... Another fantastic motivational idea from the higherarchy. It affects all RAF personnel from tomorrow, with the Army and Royal Navy to follow suit...

SB

[Faithless]

Not quite IBN states "flying coveralls to be worn during flying related activities" so that covers about everything including flying a desks :}

[TheWizard]

Being part of JHC has its advantages for once!!:)

[Jackonicko]

Aha, I thought - someone like me who gets the blues when they haven't flown for a while.........

I can see that this is unwanted and unwarranted triv, and another push-factor but anyone affected is lucky enough to be flying military aircraft and being paid to do so.

I sympathise, in other words, but don't let the chiselling blunt bastards grind you down.

[14greens]

good not got a problem with that,happy to come in to work in blues in fact i do quite a lot, but does mean that when late local flying task or late sim slot comes in they can go find someone else to do it as i will not be suitably dressed.
takes me an hour to get home, and an hour back, and as we dont have any proper changing facilities or decent lockers sorts that one out.
Shall look forward to getting questioned on the main gate as to why am wearing working dress
Been through this loop several times in the past why not be sensible?

[12 twists per inch]

About time too!


Next up, lets take flying pay off those desk jockeys who never get airborne :E

[Pontius Navigator]

The dictat is from the AFB however the implementation will be open to interpretation.

Do you arrive on sqn in blues, change to growbag to fly, change to blue when standing in as auth, to growbag for the sim, to blues to SHQ to . . .

On some stations the answer will be yes and on others will be no.

I lay odds that one of my teams will pitch up in CS95 tomorrow as I guess they don't have denims and anyway denims are wholly impracticable for the work they are to do.

Bet my brown job turns up in greens too.

[Faithless]

About time too!


Next up, lets take flying pay off those desk jockeys who never get airborne

:E Hehe you'll get into trouble for saying silly things like that! But I cound'nt agree more :}

[minigundiplomat]

This will solve a number of problems within the RAF....problems that didn't exist and didn't need solving.

As leadership goes, this is akin to finding a fire in the kitchen and thinking, 'hmmm, that looks a little difficult to tackle, what I'll do is repaint the living room instead'.

As has already been mentioned, this will add to the push factors. I find life at Odius fairly reminiscent of the dying days of the Soviet Union, in that if we repeat 'things are fine' enough times, they will be.

Not a chance. If you needed proof that the airships have lost the plot, this is it.

[I'm Off!]

And yet again we go round the buoy.....

Every few years another Senior Officer thinks "hmm, I've a good idea..."

Why won't they learn to keep their "good ideas" to themselves?

Of course it's ok, it's not like we have a retention problem....

[12 twists per inch]

Minigun

Are you seriously suggesting people will leave because they can't wear their growbag status symbol in the mess and in the office?:{

I thought wings and brevets on blues would sufficiently butter ones ego!

[Ali Barber]

For Christ's sake, didn't we go through this nearly 20 years ago. Got diverted into Leuchars off a Lightning QRA scramble many moons ago and met an F4 mate in the crewroom who seemed to have put on more than a few pounds. Turns out he was wearing his No 1s under his goon suit as "he who's name cannot be mentioned in air defence" had decreed blues if not flying. Haven't we got more important things to deal with than trivia like this? If those in command are struggling for other motivational ideas, how about parades on Saturday morning? Why do they get paid so much? Trust them about as far as a bank manager!

[sooms]

Why not go the whole hog and fly in blues!!

White roll neck sweater and No1 jacket- remind us of our glorius past.

Even better bring back those fur lined flying boots and yellow mae west's while we're at it.:ok:

[BEagle]

You're lucky The Scottish Officer allowed you in his crewroom - we landed our VC10K at Leuchars once after a live Sparrow firing support trip for 43 and 'he' took a very dim view of 'visitors' in 'his' crewroom. So we put our cups down and walked over to 111 where we were made to feel welcome.

TSO apparently used to make his people change between landing and debriefing, then change again after briefing for the next trip.

They weren't even allowed to come in for Q in flying kit - or go home again until they'd changed.

I thought this mindless stupidity had been $hitcanned years ago? But it's probably to divert grumbles away from more serious issues such as failing to find Blackjacks 90 sec from Hull.......

Another duck nibble and push factor; not the stupid order itself, but the mind-numbing embuggerance of having to change several times per day for no good reason.

I feel very sorry for those serving nowadays............

[14greens]

we used to fly in blues then some begger said we couldnt as for some reason they didnt like it

[14greens]

Had one of our co-pilots got a rollocking in SHQ at Bruggen one december coz he was wearing a short sleeve shirt instead of a long sleeve one Apparently it was in Bruggen SRO's (winter dress long sleeves!!!) (days of blues flying) and what on earth was he doing
After smiling and accepting the rollocking from said snr officer he explained that uniform he was wearing was flying kit!!!!!!!!!!! see you cant win even with blues

[14greens]

There is the other question as well, when i do CCS should I not practice my skills for going to war in the kit that i will be wearing when I go to war!!!!!!?????
Thats called a flying suit

[FJ2ME]

This absolutely staggered me today. I can hardly believe that ANYONE in this man's air force could find this important enough to find time to write and sign a briefing note on it. CAS and his underlings are crazy.

This in the same month that we are being forced to abandon perfectly good, working planning software in favour of another that doesn't work, isn't user friendly and holds less data. And I haven't even mentioned the keeping of receipts and downright penny-pinching that is an imprest these days.

To those who think we are petty to consider leaving over this-it is not the point that we are that bothered about uniform; it is that we can hardly believe the leadership has nothing better to concentrate on in such dire times. My section is 35% undermanned at the moment-what tiny amount of flexibility we have is now totally destroyed by a possible last minute crew replacement being in the wrong dress....Still, glad that the SWO has so little to do that a draft change to SROs was published before lunch.

If CAS reads this-WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? TRYING TO PI$$ US OFF? Good luck to you sir, you have lost the plot.

Disgusted of Oxon

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Haven't seen the IBN because I'm not at work, but does it suggest any reason why this is a good idea?

And, as an aside, can anyone name any other air force in the world, anywhere, that makes its aircrew change uniforms like this?

[14greens]

so where was the swo drafting SRO's at lunch time, nice to see he was doing a good job

[ACSfirstfail]

14 greens

You don't do late sim slots!!:=:=

[TomTom101]

I know about the wearing of blues to make aircrew look more part of the Airforce and not to be confused by the general public as 'in the Army' make perfect sense, but is it true that RAF Regt will only be allowed to wear CS95 on exercise or operations and have to wear blues from now on?

[neilmac]

A few years back I am sure during an exciting night shift I read something that the Regs did say aircrew must wear blues when not on flying duties, so really you have got away with it for a while. I remember going to Sqn briefs where 2 planes serviceable and 40 aircrew in flying suits thinking and what you flying today? Techies at most units have to get changed out of overalls to go to PSF/Clothing Stores. Anyway chill out still get flying pay when your doing none!!
NM

[14greens]

aww acs thats harsh!!!!
wanna see my log book?

Well obviously this will be across the board then if regt not allowed to wear CS95 unless they are doing soldier type things
So the Falcons will not be wearing there falcs polo shirts anymore then unless they are doing show stuff
PTI's will not be in the white T shirts unless they are in the gym

Sounds good to me

me thinks i will have to change my user name

[roush]

"The RAF Regt may continue to wear CS 95 and specialist clothing may be worn by Firefighters, PTIs, Medical and Dental personnel; however, commanders are to direct the wearing of No 2 HD whenever it is appropriate to do so."

[BEagle]

Presumably this stupidity also extends to the Islas Malvinas?
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

And will the AT/AAR peeps have to go back to the farce of getting changed in the back of the aeroplane before they can disembark in the USA?

Another rule invented bythe pointy head FJ-centric tits at the top - with no thoughts of the practical effects on others.

What a Loader of utter rubbish you guys have to put up with these days!

[roush]

And, as an aside, can anyone name any other air force in the world, anywhere, that makes its aircrew change uniforms like this?

Not quite the same but the USAF have just gone over to a "everyone in Blues on Mondays" rule. However they gave them a week to sort all the uniform out. I know we should all have ours ready all the time but I bet there will be a few attic lights on this evening.

[14greens]

so should specialist clothing only be worn when employed in the specialist job!!!?

Bring back getting changed in to Blues when we get off the jet at a civvie airport whoo hoo
or just let us fly in blues again, solves the problem unless off to the sand

[StopStart]

Funny :) Everything to do with my job is flying related. If I'm in work then I'm doing flying related stuff. If I'm not then I'm not in work.

Fiddling while Rome burns I fancy....

[SammySu]

I really thought this was a joke thread.

I actually don't mind wearing my number 2's, infact sometimes it's actually quite nice to feel smart and part of a bigger service.

However the resultant embuggerance factor and petty triv/hassle this will bring to the average (happy??) stations routine should not be dismissed.

It has all been done before, and was eventually rejected because its not as practical.

What staggers me is that someone thinks its a good idea, someone else took the time and effort to discuss/approve/draft/implement.

The AFB need to get a f%*&ing grip.

We'll be flying on QNH again next.......oh hang on have you seen the latest TAPS?

I weep for the future.

[14greens]

well said stop start!!!!!

Looking fwd to the main gate tomorrow!!! will we all have to get out and do a clothing check! maybe they should have a bocs terminal at the gate to log in to to prove if you are doing a flying related task
Hmmm so if I am in to complete my JPA claim for my last route is that flying related as its a claim linked to an FSI?

what a load of tosh
Kept me amused tonight though

[adminblunty]

I always wondered why UAV operators wear flying suits? Is it flying duties in the true sense of the term?

[brit bus driver]

So, the lunatics really have taken over the assylum (sp?) then. What amazes me is that, at some point in the discussion (I hope there was one), one of their airships' underlings failed to highlight the triviality of this dictat, and the effect it would have on morale. On the one hand, we - sorry, you - are short of pilots, to the tune of £100k a pop to retain certain elements; at the same time you are quite happy to issue, frankly, unenforceable regulations for what purpose?

If you need the solution, I find that a pair of shorts and a glass of wine works very well when not on a 'flying related task'. :ok:

As for flying on QNH, welcome to the rest of the world! - well, they still use QFE in Russia I guess.

[FJJP]

...those who fail to study history are destined to repeat [their failures].

How true.

This was done at least twice in the last 25 years [memory is getting fuzzy]. It won't last, once it is realised that it is generally impractical.

Some prat at high level got a monk on... Acted without thinking it through. One more potential nail in the coffin of many on the brink of giving it all up.

[Two's in]

Wouldn't a better question be why, with all the other problems that Senior Officers could be fixing, they have instead decided to focus on a dress regulation issue normally dealt with at SNCO level in the other services.

Do they have too much time on their hands, or are questions such as defining the true role and future validity of JSF/Typhoon, procuring a replacement for the rapidly aging and already obselescent AT Fleet, or where future funding for the woefully under resourced SH fleet might be found, all a bit too tricky for them to answer?

[Ogre]

I'm obviously showing my age and the length of time since I left the mob, but since when did wearing greens/CS95 become uniform of the day? Even working on the line it was go to work in blues, change into denims whilst at work, then back into blues to go home. If you wanted to nip across to PSF or stores you had to go back into blues.

Looking at this thread it would almost sound as if everyone not flying was wearing CS95. Is this really the case?

[L J R]

Ogre, when not flying, I generally don't wear any uniform, the shorts and glass of wine works for me!

[ralphmalph]

As a "Brown Job", I cannot see the problem. If I am programmed to fly tomorrow I will rock up in a Flying suit, if not i will wear CS95. Now if I am required to fly unexpectedly I go to my locker and put on my flying clothing (5 mins)

Now if you were not flying and could not be arsed to iron any kit and polish some shoes, and would rather instead pull on a growbag....then that is gash!.

I recognise the need for aircrew to be prepared for work, however I personally think there is a large portion of idleness/aircrew elitism at work here.

My thoughts only!

[hotshots!]

How can we possibly say the wearing of Blues helps us be recognised more by the general public. Surely, the 'flying suit' is what most people would associate with military aviators. Further, not banning the wearing of uniform in city centers would also help!

However, here is a question for all you pencil pushing blunties out there... "Why is everyone that doesn't fly, so against the aircrew wearing flying suits?"

[FATTER GATOR]

I can foresee a few issues

1 I will now have to actually do some ironing and shoe polishing.

2 I will now always have to wear my jumper so that people can see my brevet and know whose cloak hem they should be touching to gain inspiration and healing.

3 What about summer shirt sleeve order? Do people not realise that I have an image to uphold? Maybe they will start issuing a nice metal brevet for shirts, like our colonial colleagues.

4 Picture this...

Warm summer day at a static display. Sat on the wing in your flying suit, shades on, smile on, bead of perspiration on your forehead and the zip on your growbag riskily undone to show a bit of chest profile. The f....y bowser jack knifes right next to your aircraft

or.....

Warm summer day at a static display. You're sat on the wing, oil stains on your blue trousers, sweating your knackers off with your shirt slightly unbuttoned to show your sweaty pits and gut. The bowser jack knifes next to some guys who look like they fly planes.

:{

[Pontius Navigator]

CINC told us of this plan in April so you know which buoy that came around.

Now how much will it cost to buy loads of fancy blue demin with the RAF Logo on? All the green stuff will go to the surplus sales for pennies.

Now the denims won't have pockets as they are overalls to be worn over blues. Now if you are getting down in the muck and dirt, but no bullets, then you will wear the overalls. However if your denims get wet then so will your blues underneath.

If you leave the blues off then you will probably perish and have no pockets. Nice one.

And does stores have these blue overalls?

[Epimetheus]

Proud to wear my blues in public, but please can we have some additional items to identify us as RAF - I'm fed up of being misinterpreted as Securicor, RAC or even Police:

1. Clip-on brevets for shirts.
2. The RAF Logo for shirts, pullovers, jackets - the branding is working and is increasingly visible, so why not put it on our uniforms? Maybe as a loop on the rank slides, cf the provosts!

If we are serious about raising our public profile, let's make ourselves readily identifiable to society - the additional cost must be worth it.

[Mr C Hinecap]

You lot are as predictable as ever. I gave you, verbatim, the text from the IBN:

First post here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/345243-help-me-some-nuances-language.html) - yet you all leap on the outrage bus and charge headlong for the sunset whilst writing missives of complaint to The Daily Mail.

Get over yourselves. You, the blessed aircrew, are not being persecuted. If you were, I think the AFB consists of far more brevets than not, so have a word with yourselves. This is far more about the rest of the RAF than you self-centred mincers - if you ever read the whole document and could put it into context you might get that. :rolleyes:

[TheInquisitor]

I have read the entire document. If you are on a flying tour, there will NEVER be a requirement for you to wear blues, except for Orderly Officer, or similar duties. Everything you do on a flying tour is flying-related. Nowhere does the IBN state that if you are not actually flying, you are to wear blues.

[Emerson Cahooners]

As a "Brown Job", I cannot see the problem. If I am programmed to fly tomorrow I will rock up in a Flying suit, if not i will wear CS95. Now if I am required to fly unexpectedly I go to my locker and put on my flying clothing (5 mins)

Now if you were not flying and could not be arsed to iron any kit and polish some shoes, and would rather instead pull on a growbag....then that is gash!.

Gash...like a certain service that gave up barrack dress because they couldn't be arsed to iron any kit and polish some shoes and would rather instead pull on combat jimjams.

:= ;)

[Farfrompuken]

If this policy was intended to raise our profile in public, we would not be required to wear our scruffy, bland number 2 uniform. We look like a bunch of postmen-pats or halfords workers in that outfit.

No it's a COST thing. Number 2s are cheap when compared to a flying coverall. Officers pay for replacements to their number 2s too.

If the intention was to look smart, we'd either have some better flying kit (too expensive) or better 2s (too expensive). Obviously Number 1s do the job but are impractical for daily use.

BTW those that are concerned about wings on number 2s should be aware that you CAN wear them on your blue Bomber Jacket (check QRs). Only exception to wings on your chest is your number 5 which requires mini-wings.

When I wish to wear short-sleeves and nylon trousers, I shall do so at BA or Virgin's employ and look a whole lot smarter to boot!

[Sideshow Bob]

So let's get a few things straight, I don't need a flying suit so everyone know I'm Aircrew, that’s why I have a brevet on my blues, one I earned through hard work and perseverance. If you ground types are so jealous, why not do as I did and get off your arses, do some hard work, pass selection and then you too can swan around getting lots of money.
As for not being paid flying pay when not flying, I think you will find this is well covered in the regulations, if the RAF post me to a non-flying, ground job (flying related or not job) then they must continue to pay me flying pay for 3 years and give me the option to return to flying after that. If I volunteer to do a ground job they do not have to pay me flying pay. If they, after the 3 years make me stay in a non-flying roll (flying related or not) they have to pay me flying pay. If at any time in my service they remove my flying pay without me volunteering I have the option to leave the service immediately (as you do if you are permanently downgraded). As you can see it would be quite expensive for the airforce to give aircrew a free immediate PVR option. (We are not as cheap to train as groundcrew).
As for only wearing flying suits when on flying related duties, that covers about 90% of our job including doing a tour in Ops!! Think I'll stick to my blues though.
PS 14greens when have you ever been in work past 2pm when not flying? :hmm:

[Winco]

One really has to look at the current state of the RAF with it's serious shortages of manpower, equipment and morale and question the mental stability of those at the top who dream up these kind of things.

How can we possibly be employing an airship in these particularly difficult and trying times, who has nothing better to do with his life or time other than to sit down and come up with this unwarranted crap? If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny, but the fact is that someone close to the very top (maybe even right at the top) has been able to find the time and energy to come up with this, instead of trying to repair the real problems that are facing the RAF. I despair frankly.

And why oh why is Torpey allowing it? Is the guy completely blind to what is going on? Is he that far detached from the real world that he can't see that this is stupid? (enough said there; my views on Torpey are well known on this forum. Suffice to say that the man is a spent fool who should go now (IMHO of course!))

God help you all. With idiots of this calibre in charge, you must feel really safe and secure.

The Winco

[Mr Point]

I take it that the RAF short-sleeved blue shirt procurement problem has been resolved then. The last time I checked SROs we were only able to exchange them in exceptional circumstances.

Sounds like fantastic timing!:}

[Grabbers]

Surely it's a no-brainer. If you are aircrew on a flying sqn then wear a flying suit. Helps to maintain Sqn identity/pride in ones role. No issue at all. All ground-dwellers into CS95. More comfortable, less upkeep (ironing), uniformity, as there are too many options in 'blues'. And the genius of my fiendishly simple plan is that it's much cheaper all round. We maintain RAF corporate identity using 'barcodes', and headdress with RAF cap badges. Non commissioned can wear green rank slides with RAF embroidered underneath.

Easy!

[cazatou]

In my 14 years on 32 Sqn we only wore Flying Suits on "Operations". Normal peacetime VIP flying was done in No 2's and in No 1's for VVIP flights.

[Truckkie]

Hope they increase my paltry uniform tax allowance to compensate for the wear & tear of my No 2 dress then.

Having just replaced No 1 and No 5 in the past 18 months I don't have much change from £2000!!! (Which is around 4 years uniform tax allowance)

On a personal note I think that our No 2 dress is awful - it is cheap and nasty. Too much ironing leaves you with shiny shirts, trousers and jumpers. The short sleeve shirt is rarer than an operationally focused 2*.

Aircrew in flying post wear smart flying suits - end of story. Looks better than badly pressed No 2's which only survive the first encounter with any form of chair/desk combo.

Lets have some uniformity - UK MAMS (CS95), RAF Regt (CS95), RAF Police (CS95), TCW (CS95), TSW (CS95), TMW (CS95), Stn Guard Forces (CS95). Admin blunties (Blues - unless feeling left out:ok:), ATC (Blues), Eng Wing (Blues then coveralls when working).

It looks to me that the vast majority of workers in the RAF wear CS95. Engineers need coveralls for working on aircraft. Only the blunties seem to wear No 2 on a day-to-day basis - the minority perhaps?

RAF should wear smart CS95 with RAF and unit insignia.
Aircrew wear flying suits when flying - CS95 when not.
No5s and No1s remain for ceremonial and social functions.

Bin No 2 HD altogether and save money! (It still looks sh:mad:t!)

[TheWizard]

The national shortage of wedgewood blue uniform shirts in stores at the moment could prove interesting if this is enforced.
(unless of course they are being held in reserve in case somebody might need them someday:ugh:)

[Lurking123]

We were having this discussion in 1981 when I joined the RAF. Back then, there was a plethora of aircrew in scruffy flying suits covered with more badges (TLP etc) than the average boy scout. Somewhere along the line they standardised the badges to be worn.

Personally, I can't see why you chaps are getting so wound up. If you're not going to be flying, why not wear the uniform (as opposed to the protective clothing) that you have been given/have tax relief on? As someone has said, there are far bigger things for both the AFB and aircrew to get animated about.

PS. I'm not admin guru!!

[BEagle]

Perhaps it's time to re-introduce the excellent pre-1973/4 pattern blue barathea battledress? It was worn with epaulette rank badges, flying badge and medal ribbons; two versions were in use, the 'normal pattern' and an 'aircrew pattern', which could be worn underneath a coverall. It had sewn-down epaulettes, zip pockets instead of patch pockets and also a zipped aperture for an AVS hose. Very 'cool', it was!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Whereas the dreadful railway porter's jacket introduced in 1973/4 was simply appalling. At the same time the first of the awful 'woolly pullies' also appeared, to be replaced by various other abortions over the years - the V-necked ones made the wearer look like some prep school paedophile when worn with a tie!

Everyone from the police to the girl guides looks smarter in uniform than RAF personnel in their scruffy RAC patrolman's uniform. No wonder aircrew prefer to wear No 14 dress - or whatever it's called now - even if it doesn't include all the medal ribbons earned whilst the REMFs anguished over pointless clothing rules.

[brit bus driver]

When I wish to wear short-sleeves and nylon trousers, I shall do so at BA or Virgin's employ and look a whole lot smarter to boot!

Steady on old boy. One's strides are 80% wool, 20% polyester I'll have you know. Though they do spend a fair amount of time just hanging in the wardrobe. Bit chilly for shorts today and just a tad too early for wine...:}

[FJ2ME]

I too have read the entire IBN and Mr C Hinecap and TheInquisitor are correct, BUT, and its a big but, what if your station commander's interpretation differs from yours....? For all the stress put on the quality of written comms throughout officer development, it is so disappointing to see so many senior guys misunderstand the essence of the message so badly. As a frontline operator I consider everything I do, secondary duties aside, as flying-related. If it weren't then i wouldn't be in receipt of flying pay surely. And moreover, I wouldn't be here!

Like someone said earlier, the loonies have taken over the asylum. And they think this is important. That is whats most laughable....Amidst Catara, BOCS, JPA, retention issues, ageing decrepit kit, and crumbling station infrastructure, surely its time to kick up a stink about uniform. I ask you, what the f*** is going on...

As a General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett once said : " If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."

Never a truer word spoken it seems...

[Gnd]

Oh this is so funny - have I missed something or is there a punch line?

Seems such a trivial and pointless thing to get wound up about - yet they do again!!!

Maybe Tim Collins did the draft????, it may be part of his master plan to divide and conquer??:cool:

[Wader2]

As a "Brown Job", I cannot see the problem. If I am programmed to fly tomorrow I will rock up in a Flying suit, if not i will wear CS95. Now if I am required to fly unexpectedly I go to my locker and put on my flying clothing (5 mins)

Ralph, one problems is that over time the locker rooms have gone, the old large flying clothing lockers have gone. But note this pearl from the RAF IBN##


all 3 Services are making major changes to the direction and advice on wearing uniform both in public and in routine situations.

[Wader2]

Hope they increase my paltry uniform tax allowance to compensate for the wear & tear of my No 2 dress then.

Having just replaced No 1 and No 5 in the past 18 months I don't have much change from £2000!!! (Which is around 4 years uniform tax allowance)

At pains of repeating an earlier post - The tax allowance, which has been unchanged for many years (AFAIK) is equivalent to about £72 pa cash with tax at 20%. Over 5 years this is £360. Over that same 5 years you can expect all your No 2 uniform to be replaced on a like cycle basis. When I checked the life-cycle replacement was exactly equal to the tax relief, ie £360.

The tax relief is intended for the maintenance and upkeep of your uniform. If you have receipted amounts that are more than the allowance then you may claim the actual amount. This is a matter between you and your tax man.

To give an example, Mrs W2 was allowed a fixed relief of £18 pa or about £4 cash. Her actual expenditure for laundering her uniform every day was about £4 per week. The taxman did not quibble when we claimed £210 per year and did not even ask for justification.

I mentioned receipted amounts as it is a well known fact that officers change their uniform only when forced to do so - look at the mention of forage caps.

[R SCANDAL]

Heard today that the uniform tax relief thingy is to be thrown in the bin. From next year we may be looking at one for one swappage of our beautiful blues rather than have to pay good money for them. As a poor sod who has started to have to wear them for the first time in years, I am appalled at the poor quality of the polyester/nylon/viscose shirt. If they become free I will be exchanging them rather more regularly than the toilet who came up with this crap idea would like.

[Wader2]

Heard today that the uniform tax relief thingy is to be thrown in the bin. From next year we may be looking at one for one swappage of our beautiful blues rather than have to pay good money for them.

RS, I raised this point with the RAF Briefing Team at Waddo about 16 years ago. They said then that the budget could not afford to buy the extra kit for free exchange. This was nonsense as we were still getting it from the same stores. What they really meant was that we were better off wearing our kit to rags and shoes to slicks.

Obviously it was the Treasury that was paying out the £72 whereas the MOD would have had to spend their own £72 per officer with no prospect of getting it back from the Treasury.

You will still be able to claim tax relief for laundry, dry cleaning and major replacement that you cannot get from stores.

[I've_got a traveller]

Despite all the arguments for and against wearing blues, what is massively apparent is No2 HD, or whatever it is called is, is dated and awful!!

My next door neighbour thought I worked for the RSPCA!! I have even heard stories of guys being mistaken for St Johns Ambulance! We are supposed to be an armed force yet the powers that be dress us like f-ing clowns (no offence to the RSPCA or SJA). If they are that bothered about what we wear then they should create a uniform that we are proud to wear. Take a leaf out of the Aussies book with a smart, snappy uniform that looks good!!!

Forget the leaning team lets hire Gok Wan!!!

By the way why do all senior officers wear brevets on their shirts? Are we minions allowed to do that? Is that in QR's?

[Wader2]

What will sunshine airways staff wear? There is no Joe Public to impress so will they have to wear KD or can they wear DPM?:}

Why not issue everyone with Air Force blue DPM?

[Backwards PLT]

Calm down, calm down. As someone has already said, there should be little or no impact on those in actual flying jobs - no mention of no 2s to drive to work, or go to SHQ etc etc. I see some battles with some over-zealous SWOs, though!

What bothers me more is that it is a direct attack on CS95. We had just got to the point where many were op focussed in the RAF, getting away from our 1990s Mon-Fri 8-5 office image, and some idiot (with all due respect, sir) decides to bin that and remind us that we should be Mon-Fri 8-5, don't get ops oriented. Because that is what no 2s symbolize. I hate to say it but the army have gone the right way - CS95 if not in specialist kit.

[Educated Armourer]

A previous poster stated that this decision was bad for morale. I disagree, there are a lot of would be non (frustrated?) flyers out there and it has done a world of good for our morale.

Yes I am being petty - but to see the aircrew coming in their (sometimes quite scruffy) grow bags when you know they have not flown for 12 months and know that they get this 'uniform' for free when we have to pay for our blues is galling.

Aircrew I work with say that they are proud of being aircrew and want people to know - and that is a fair point, I would be proud if I had become aircrew. But maybe a better way would be the wearing of brevets on items of blue other than the wooly pully?

As an ex-airman I had to get out of my denims to go anywhere other than work - the rules have always been there for aircrew to act in a similar way, they chose to believe that they were above the rules

[wg13_dummy]

Agree with you there, Gnd. This thread must at least match the 'RAF Fitness test' dummy spitting topic.

Some seriously sad people knocking around the RAF. :D

[Pontius Navigator]

Backwards, good point.

[spheroid]

If they become free I will be exchanging them rather more regularly than the toilet who came up with this crap idea would like.

I don't think that you have grasped the concept of one-for-one.... YOU don't get to choose when you can exchange your kit.... each item has a life and you can only exchange it when it is Lifex....

As for wearing Blues when not flying.....Give me a day or a night when I'm not flying and I'll gladly wear them...

[4321]

Agree with Backwards there is enough wriggle room over flying suits, however little for those who regularly wear CS95.
Those on joint units where CS95 is worn to enable "esprit de cours" and "operational focus" will now be forced to be the odd ones out and no doubt the brunt of more pongo stick. If this is really about making us more recognisable to the civvies, then its time blues were updated and better quality. The other day one of my guys was in Dixons when a punter leaving the store opened his bag to show him the contents!
If this is how the AFB thinks it can improve matters and retention then I am finally convinced they are in a different Air Force to me!

[Grimweasel]

What a laugh!
Some of you 'kids' really need a reality check about priorities in life. BooHoo, can't wear my precious flying suit, boohoo, I might just blend in with the rest of the RAF and lose my macho identity!!
Get over yourselves!! You'll all be 'flying' UAVs in 20 years and there will be no need for the 'winged master-race'
He he!!
:)

[Pontius Navigator]

Little bird tells me that they do wish to do away with the officers buy their own kit anomaly and thus eek out as much life as possible. Some idea of issuing tokens - shades of a cash value allowance system that pertained in the 60s but for officers too.

New twist though, you order from a catalgue and have a free home delivery service. Saves on stores. Also means the parcel will be delivered when no one is at home and it will have gone back to the depot and back to the store if not claimed in 5 days. :}

Once you get it you will still need to visit the station tailor for it to be cut to shape and size.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Are many of the whingers on here aware that they joined a branch of the military? On matters such as dress, drill and other such standard military embuggerments its good form to do as you are told. Of course were you to be ordered to shoot a bunch of nuns then I'd expect you all to question that, but as wearing what you are told to wear is not quite so serious you should totter off to Clothing Stores for some blues and STFU.
Seriously, the Andrew and pongos must breaking a rib laughing at you tarts.

[SpotterFC]

H'mm - went to London today on duty - stood in a packed commuter train from Maidenhead, wandered through busy Tube station, got onto packed Tube which got even pack'der - to the extent that there was no room to move anywhere for 2 stops. If some (I'm ever so upset about what you're doing to my 'brothers') looney had decided to have a go on either form of public transport or in the underground stations there is little I could have done, and I probably wouldn't even have seen it coming.

First Class travel in uniform would be a start but I'm not at all convinced I'd want to wear it in London in the rush hour; there is still a lot to be said for anonymity! Having said that, wearing a suit and looking like a merchant banker in London might not be a healthy thing soon...

[OHP 15M]

Now that the Armed Forces cannot discriminate against sexual orientation, can fat RAF blokes (who aren't wooftas) elect to wear the WRAF pregnancy smock for reasons of personal comfort? :ok:

What's it coming to ... they'll be modifying flying suits with a rear zip next!
:E

The Royal Air Farce never ceases to amaze me :ugh:

[wg13_dummy]

Written by FJ2ME;
BUT, and its a big but, what if your station commander's interpretation differs from yours....?

He's right, you're wrong. Well, thats how it works in the rest of the military.


Yep, you're quite correct, Helpful Stacker. The proper military types are popping ribs yet again at how delicate the crabs are. :D

No wonder you lot are a joke.

[GZ stickman]

Blues if not flying? Dissappointing news! And I was so looking forward to wearing that kiwi flying jacket and hat that I picked up in Leuchars the other week....

[glad rag]

I can remember being sent to clothing stores by the Sqn WO to exchange our shift JEngo's shoes.........................:ok:

[81mm]

Wind it Grimweasel! You know you love us. Mabey if you started wearing your old flying suit again and spent a little less time on the golf course, you'd have a clearer view on the subject.

Keep it Green

[goneeast]

Nice first post 81mm !! It makes me proud to by welsh :ok:

[taxydual]

Oh for God's sake

A 21st Century Royal Air Force, currently on operational tasking in 'sandy places' where, incidentally, Royal Air Force personnel have lost their lives, and some 'Airship' or other starts dictating 'who wears what and when'.

Is it important???

It beggars belief!!! Niff Naff in the 21st Century!!

[sunshine band]

Taxydual- I totally agree.:ok:

Here's an idea- why don't we all print this out, stick it in an envelope and send it marked as "personal" to CAS... I'd love to know what he thinks of this all now...

I'm surprised at the CinC as well - warfighter or shop security guard first (or ticket collector on that train to Glasgow, Sir!)???:ugh:

Has the media got a hold of this yet?? We will become a laughing stock!

All that money spent on the patches and logos on our DPMs, and we are not allowed to wear them- are we getting the equivalent in blue for our No 2s, or a large Roundel on our backs???

SB

[wg13_dummy]

Oh for God's sake

A 21st Century Royal Air Force, currently on operational tasking in 'sandy places' where, incidentally, Royal Air Force personnel have lost their lives, and some 'Airship' or other starts dictating 'who wears what and when'.

Is it important???

It beggars belief!!! Niff Naff in the 21st Century!!

I see you've mentioned 21st Century, Ops and the fact that RAF personnel have lost their lives. This obviously adds more weight to your argument that you really don’t want to do as you're told I suppose?

Call me old fashioned but tradition in the military is that the 'airships' or others do actually dictate what you do. It’s not a bleeding democracy you know.

Didn't Mr Hine C point out quite early on (and several times) in this thread that it wasn’t a case of 'everyone, regardless will not wear flying kit unless they are strapped to an aircraft' but more of a 'if your knocking around the station, wear the appropriate uniform for your job; blues if you aint digging a hole, crawling under an aircraft or actually flying or engaged in flying'?

Precious little things.

[Kengineer-130]

........ Smacks of todays air farce :ugh:... how about some decent mortar/rocket protection for people in the desert (both places!) instead of them taking their chances and "hoping" that it isn't thier turn this time? :mad:

[soddim]

Trouble with senior officers is that they all know a great deal about dressing up and what people should wear but they know bu**er all about flying or what motivates and demotivates their aircrew.

They are lucky to have some left - and they only stay because they love flying.

[ricardian]

I take it that the RAF short-sleeved blue shirt procurement problem has been resolved then. The last time I checked SROs we were only able to exchange them in exceptional circumstances.

Are they collar-attached or does the NAAFI still sell collar studs?

[taxydual]

WG13

I hear what you say (oh,and that's an awful phrase), and yes, the RAF have to do what the 'Airships' say.

But when an Air Force is bleeding (in more ways than one), in the 21st Century. I would have hoped that the 'Airships' would have passed a field dressing rather than a sartorial dressing.

Regards

[minigundiplomat]

WG, Chinecap et al raise a few good points, and in the case of the other two services I think there is an element of 'tongue in cheek' humour.

In reply, I would say that the content of this IBN is not really the issue for most. The appalling prioritisation is the real bugbear.

I read a message from CinC Land recently, attempting to address the current problems the army are having, telling them to ditch the pointless, minimise the 'nice to have' and concentrate on the here and now, and it struck me as an example of realism and good leadership.

What has the RAF had of late? An extra fatness test, some logo's, a few new titles and some revision of dress codes. Hardly a coherent response to an Air Force currently falling on it's arse.

A few people may find themselves wearing blues instead of flying suits, and it wont stop the world turning. However, what we need is leadership and not some half arsed attempt to sugar coat a turd.

[FJ2ME]

To all the people who have commented here at the 'preciousness' of RAF aircrew at such a trivial rule, you fools have missed the point. It is precisely the triviality of this point, and its untimely thrusting upon us that is the source of the dissatisfaction. This is the sort of rule that could be pondered, researched and reported on when everything else is tickety-boo, not when the walls are crumbling around us.

Here's food for thought-what exactly is "flying related" about standing in front of a Harrier in an international party suit to deliver an address on Equality and Diversity...? Are we to believe that Air Marshall Torpy trotted that performance out shortly before strapping the mighty FOD-hoover to his back and venturing skywards...I don't think so. Clearly he believes that aircrew should dress as such, so come on Sir, put the handbrake on this stupid rule that you clearly don't believe in yourself.

And while you've freed up all that conference and consultation time-can we have some new aircraft please?

[wg13_dummy]

I really fail to see why so many of you are getting so upset.

From what I can read into this, nothing will change.

Flying related to me would be;

If you are on the squadron and are due to fly that day - wear flying kit.
If you know you are not going to fly that day - wear your blue nylon slacks.

What did you wear prior to this order when not flying or not on flying related duties? If its a flying suit then the question has to be; why?

I'm sure there was a thread a while ago about people whinging due to the lack of flying suits. Probably because everyone was wearing them out when not flying perhaps? :hmm:

[FJ2ME]

wg13_dummy, do behave. What operational and/or training flying station have you been to recently where you've seen aircrew habitually wearing blues, 32Sqn excepted? The rules have ever been thus concerning the Mk14 coverall and aircrew have always worn them. Your comments show your lack of knowledge. The reality is many an office day has been punctuated with a 'surprise' sim or flight and many flights get cancelled. The nature of the beast is flexibility and this rubbish just isn't compatible.

If you don;t understand the point then don't bother to comment, you're clearly too far away from the subject matter to understand the arguments.

If any uniform change was anticipated it was the ditching of the forest green all round in favour of sandy hues-seems to be what most of us spend our time wearing anyhow...Still, they'll no doubt have us in blues on det next, just in case there's media around...

And on a lighter note, this is spot on, we are indeed being massively disrespected!!:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9DR3vGUOVUA&feature=related

[TheInquisitor]

If you are on the squadron and are due to fly that day - wear flying kit.
If you know you are not going to fly that day - wear your blue nylon slacks.
There are obviously some here who haven't read this IBN, or seem incapable of reading replies in this thread from others who have, so I shall iterate this one more time:

Nowhere does this document state that 'If you are not flying you are to wear blues. It states that if you are employed on Flying-Related Duties you wear a flying suit.

This means that, for those of us on a flying tour, there is nothing in this document that prevents you from wearing a flying suit every day you are in work. A Stn Cdr that interprets the document this way and orders 'Blues when not flying', is wrong - however, it's his Stn and his prerogative to do so, and, as has already been pointed out, this is not a democracy. However, he would be an absolute tool to do so and morale on his Stn would evaporate (assuming that there is any there to begin with).

So - what are 'flying-related duties'? We can easily solve this one, and perhaps kick this nonsense into touch in one fell swoop; All PA Spine aircrew, working at Gp, ITOC, HQ Air, etc - turn up for work every day in your flying suits. After all, the rules state that PA aircrew can ONLY be employed on 'flying or flying-related duties'.

If "Letter of the Law" is what they want, then let's give them precisely that:

AOC: "Why have you come to work in a flying suit, Sqn Ldr Bloggs?"
PA Sqn Ldr: "Because I am employed on flying-related duties, Sir"
AOC: "No you are not, you are an A5 planner here in the Black Hole of High Wycombe"
PA Sqn Ldr: "In that case Sir, I shouldn't be here at all. My TOS state that I can only be employed on "Flying or Flying Related Duties. Can I go back to a Sqn now, please?"

Ridiculous, yes, but so is this IBN, frankly. And some people's interpretation of it.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SVK]

God Bless you all.

[Dan Winterland]

Does anyone remember the 1970s Flight Safety film 'Distractions?'

IIRC, the plot is that a Jag Sqn Flt Commander gets nibbled to death by ducks for two days and then goes flying. He's late for a range slot as a result of being overburdoned by trivia, rushes his checks and leaves the MASB at safe. When he loses and engine after takeoff, he presses the clearance button which doesn't work because it's not armed. He crashes and dies.

One of his many hassles is that he has to go to handbrake house for some trivia. As he's walking out of the door in his flying suit, the boss tells him to get changed into his blues as OC Admin wouldn't like it!



Seems it was happening then. The wheel turns!

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Dan,

Shame the nice bloke from 'Robin's Nest' got toasted, but if the Jag had had more thrust, it would have been ok!

This whole thing strikes me as a case of: 'Rearranging the deck chairs on the B Deck of Titanic'. If you've pretty much given up, might as well do something.... anything.

Advo

[Pontius Navigator]

Backwards PLT said What bothers me more is that it is a direct attack on CS95. We had just got to the point where many were op focussed in the RAF, getting away from our 1990s Mon-Fri 8-5 office image, and some idiot (with all due respect, sir) decides to bin that and remind us that we should be Mon-Fri 8-5, don't get ops oriented. Because that is what no 2s symbolize. I hate to say it but the army have gone the right way - CS95 if not in specialist kit

Sunshineband wrote All that money spent on the patches and logos on our DPMs, and we are not allowed to wear them- are we getting the equivalent in blue for our No 2s, or a large Roundel on our backs???

and having read the IBN note that the green demin is to be replaced by a new blue overall with an RAF Logo patch.

The whole thing, and the IBN says this, is a PRO exercise to raise public perception.

Remember the other services are apparently to go away from CS95 too. We are at war and we are now going away from wartime dress.

I don't believe these are in stock yet and that is non-essential expenditure.

[Rigger1]

Ask the aircrew to put on blues when they are not flying and just watch them moan. All the constant wearing of flying suits does is create more of an us and them situation. :=
I was on a sqn once when even the SAC ops clerk was told he could wear a flying suit so he didn’t feel left out as he worked with the aircrew and not the engineers …… surprised the boss’s civvie admin girl didn’t get one as well.
The RAF is blue and if not flying everyone should wear the correct uniform, engineers have to take their overalls off when going to the mess etc (even if you work in the LOX bay and they are spotless) so it’s about time the ‘master race’ joined in with the rest of the team.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rigger, there was a time when people in clean bays wore coats not overalls. Far easier to take off and put on. Smarter too than ill fitting overalls.

But why change from green to blue overalls as the whole exercise is supposed to improve public awareness? Blue overalls will do nothing to help this.

[Rigger1]

I totally agree, the overall change is a ridiculous waste of money, how many members of the public get to see us engineers at work anyway?

But when it comes to flying suits ….. don’t get me started.

[Al R]

Not wearing CS95 allows respite from operational tempo. It can be used to subliminally denote a period of (almost) R&R away from yet another nose to the grindstone session. As I recall, no one walked around RAFG in IPE all the time, so why the obsession for making everyone believe we're at war all the time now? At Aldergrove in the 70s and 80s, what was the rig of the day then?

A military campaign is not a sprint, and I don't think there's anything wrong in moving more into blues when circumstances allow. For god's sake, an Olympic athlete needs downtime, and even an F1 car has to blip down a cog or two sometimes during a race - it doesn't automatically make it an uncompetitive racecar.

And I think aircrew should be allowed to wear flying rig, just to annoy people.

[Pontius Navigator]

I shall rise to the bait.

Donning and removing overalls is one thing. Flying clothing is all together a different matter.

It is called an Aircrew Equipment Assembly and is composed of multiple layers each of which must be removed in order to change into blues. In the winter the correctly kitted aircrew, in the sqn, will be wearing long johns and a aircrew vest, an aircrew shirt, possibly an immersion suit thermal layer and then the flying suit. Removal of this lot takes time and can be warm work in a heated building. The mix of suited aircrew and shirt-sleeved blue wearers is an incompatibility as far as central heating goes.

OTOH, when the flying suit is worn solely as a growbag in a bunker or elsewhere then IMHO it is being abused.

In the V-force we flew with a diversionb bag and our blues etc and always changed if we diverted. Our kit was stored in large purpose-designed lockers and we would only change in the locker room as we also had to don AVS and possibly g-pants - there was nothing to be gained by commuting in a flying suit.

The flying clothing sections also provided clean towels and handled the aircrew laundry. They would also have ready access to the flying suits as they need regular servicing, a fact often overlooked.

Gradually people living in the messes or quarters started to wear flying suits when going to ops as the need for g-pants ceased and they often eschewed the AVS. The locker rooms started to fall in to disuse and new buildings started to be built with smaller changing rooms.

You simply can't change back as the stroke of a pen.

So proper changing and locker facilities need to be provided and aircrew should don their AEA at work and not at home. They should only need to change again at cease work and not for movement around the unit.

[Rigger1]

Pontius Navigator (http://www.pprune.org/members/63011-pontius-navigator)

I agree AEA is a pain in the proverbial to put on and remove, yes I have worn it on numerous occasions, and I did not mean it to sound like you should get changed to go to lunch.

If you are due to go flying that day ... wear your AEA (PPE to the rest of us)
If you have been flying that day ... wear your AEA.

I can’t see anyone having an issue with the above, however, if you are not programmed to fly, not on standby to fly, not been flying, are on light duties or an admin day etc why can't you wear blues?

I have seen aircrew who have been off flying for months, one with a broken ankle springs to mind, and yet they still wear flying suits everyday!

And as for lockers, you should try living with a small groundcrew type one, and getting all your kit into that, and yes we do have more than you think, you could hold a party in your average aircrew locker.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rigger, agree. I remember one ex-Waddo FC type at Coningsby who only wore a grow bag. More of necessity I guess with the emphasis on grow.

[skippedonce]

From IBN 27/08

‘the practice of covering up uniform was instigated in response to the Irish Republican terrorism campaign of the 1980s and 1990s – but is no longer relevant.’

True, the Irish Republican threat is no longer relevant, but…

From today’s BBC

The government's terrorist threat level has remained pegged at its second highest rating - severe - since last summer.
'Severe' threat level
Senior Whitehall officials say the police and security service are working near capacity and the threat level is unlikely to be reduced soon.
They say that it currently lies at the high end of severe, with no sign of it being downgraded.

And I seem to remember considerable concern last year about a plot to kidnap and behead a British serviceman somewhere in the Midlands. Maybe that’s why we’ve opted for No.2 HD; the militants won’t be targeting RAC rescuemen, so as long as we don’t have brevets or medal ribbons on our shirts, we’ll be safely anonymous!

But that sort of defeats the idea of being identifiable in the community.

[MG]

The replies I mean, not the dress regs!

I read page 1 and couldn't be bothered with the rest as it was such a load of twaddle! The ruling has absolutely nothing to do with wearing flying suit when only flying. As someone correctly said, it says flying related, therefore that covers just about all eventualities. It has nothing to with being in JHC either as Air has full command on this one so, JHC or not, the rules apply if you're in the RAF. All it is about is raising the RAF's profile which just has to be a good thing. No more covering up when driving to work, be proud! And certainly no walking over to the car park with a civvy jacket on just because you're too idle to salute.

Come on guys, it won't change anything except that you will be recognised as RAF and not an amorphous mass in CS95. Those of you who are bleating because 'a mate read it and told me what he thought it meant' continue, day in day out across stations and on here, to give the RAF the worst possible name.
You exasparate me, you really do. In 23 years and 4 days of wearing a blue suit I can still say that I'm proud of being in the RAF and this ruling is a step towards raising our profile to where it really should be.

[TheInquisitor]

But when it comes to flying suits ….. don’t get me started.
Flying suits symbolise the hard work and achievements aircrew have made to get where they are. They identify us as such and we are proud to wear them. Taking that away is a slap in the face, frankly. It makes no difference to your working day, or your lot in life, if we wear them or not, so what exactly IS your problem?

If you have an issue with it, go and do selection, and presuming you are deemed suitable, do the necessary trg, then you can wear one yourself.

Until then, dry your eyes, princess.

[Mister-T]

It wasnt long ago when I read that service people returning from Theatre were not aloud to wear uniform onward from brize unless in a motor vehicle. Wearing uniform on a train plane or on foot was forbidden. So where and why does that rule and this newer rule seperate?

[Pontius Navigator]

MG, there is more than one strand to this thread and you have focussed solely on the flying suit issue.

What about the expense of swapping to blue overalls that the public won't see anyway?

What about the loss of 'war-fighting' edge? I browsed through the AP today, yup Friday and black flag. Operational support was a reason for bunker wallahs wearing CS95.

CS95 does not aid in individual Service recognition but after 30 or more years of covering up the daily wear of an RAC patrolman doesn't help either. Add an annoymous blue bomber jacket and you disappear completely.

The short lived, RAF blue, zip pocketed, zip fronted No 2 was a distinctive uniform. Aircrew had brevets and some had medals. A modern working dress jacket would enable people to wear their medal ribbons and really stand out from the crowd.

An annoymous woolly pully or annoymous blouson do not look smart and do not help identity. Blue overalls, vice green ones, are a waste of scarce cash.

[MG]

PN, I do agree that our No 2 dress leaves quite a bit to be desired. The zip up jacket is annoymous and the public don't, at the moment know what we stand for. If, however, we do start wearing the uniform in public on a regualr basis, there is the faintest possiblity that Joe Public might accuse an RAC patrolman of being a member of the RAF! As for improvements to blues, how about a proper rankslide to replace the abhorant practice of stapling or sellotaping together? I wouldn't be adverse to seeing wings and medals pinned on a shirt.
As for your other points, 'loss of war fighting edge'? Nope, can't see how wearing blues helps nor hinders when in an office.
Blue overalls? They were blue when I joined and we were fighting on ops, albeit only in a few key areas. Green overalls will be replaced with blue when they need to be. I guess that it will be phased in, not 'you are to wear the new ones on Monday'. Green are hardly necessary for camouflage and thinner ones in desert will still be used, I imagine.
Finally, I concentrated on flying suits 'cos that's the title of the thread!

[GreenWings]

Inquisitor wrote:
Flying suits symbolise the hard work and achievements aircrew have made to get where they are. They identify us as such and we are proud to wear them. Taking that away is a slap in the face, frankly. It makes no difference to your working day, or your lot in life, if we wear them or not, so what exactly IS your problem?

If you have an issue with it, go and do selection, and presuming you are deemed suitable, do the necessary trg, then you can wear one yourself.

Until then, dry your eyes, princess.

Oh poor Princess Inquisitor :sad:

Surely your wings are your reward for all your acheivements and IIRC you can, and do, wear those on your 2HD jumper. Do you really feel that precious that you need constant recongnition of your hard work and achievements that you need to wear your growbag, and not *just* your wings?

I think it is you that needs to dry your eyes

But then what do I know, I'm just a lowly engineer who wears blues, unless my pilots are nice enough to take me up in one of their helicopters, and then I might get to wear a flying suit too! ;)

[TheInquisitor]

So, once again, what exactly IS some people's issue with aircrew wearing flying suits? I have not yet seen a convincing argument as to why we shouldn't. It makes not one blind bit of difference to you. Petty envy is the only thing that springs to mind. Like I said, you want to wear one? Get selected, do the trg, qualify.

Aircrew on a flying tour should wear flying suits.

Those who work in an office (aircrew on ground tours included) should wear blues.

Those who work in the field or on ops (not REMFS in UK bunkers) should wear CS95.

Those who do manual labour, or work in a dirty environment, should wear overalls, or suitable PPE, and change out of it at the end of their shift (like any other similar job in civvy street).

Now, what is so difficult about all that?

I'm willing to bet that if the IBN stated that ALL RAF personnel are to wear flying suits, there would be little complaint from the "Nasty Aircrew in their flying suits make me feel inferior" brigade....

Besides, in blues there is always the chance, from behind, or from a distance, of Aircrew being mistaken for somebody unimportant who didn't try hard enough at school. Or the danger of a SWO confusing you with somebody who gives a sh!t! Geez, you'll be bleating about our wheelbarrow-loads of flying pay every month next......

:E

[Truckkie]

Flying Pay?

No thanks - I'll take my PAS pension at 55 yrs.

Keep wearing my flying suit and take home the benefits of being a Wg Cdr without the need to get promoted and having to wear blues!

[Pylot]

The policy is largely irrelevant as it only airs already existing rules. I am more concerned about the reaction of some of the non-flyers whose only contribution to this professional aircrew forum is deride and denigrate the flying professionals for whom it exists.

There are rather too many non-aircrew who seem to take great satisfaction in the idea that we flyers will lose sleep because we might have to wear blues once in a while. I am sorry to burst your bubbles ladies but we don't really care - most of us will continue to wear flying suits if on flying or flying related duties like the order says. For an average aircrew mate on a squadron that would be all working days with a letter 'y' in them.

I am not in any way criticising the vast majority of professional ground crew in the RAF, and in the unlikely event that one of you is reading this, I would just like to say thank-you. Those of you I am referring to know who you are and should be ashamed of yourselves. You are the ones being divisive, and sniping at flying suits and flying pay makes you sound sad, jealous little unfortunates who didn't make selection. If you really don't like working in an organization which employs aircrew, and provides them with appropriate clothing which they actually wear, then why did you join the RAF, ffs?

I for one will enjoy wearing my envy coloured egyptian cotton man-sized baby grow all the more for the rage that it so obviously causes in some sad,unbalanced individuals. For good measure I will don a leather jacket and chip-bag hat to boot. I imagine this look, combined with a pair of premium brand aviation sunglasses, will have some of you apoplectic! Now, as they say in England, I must fly!

[Chris Griffin]

What Pylot said.:ok:

On a serious note, I couldn't give a fat pigs derrier whether I have to go to work in the babygrow or blues.

However, what it will do is make our jobs harder to crew the last minute aeromed, Comp A or spec as no one is in correct rig. Only if this situation happens will this be changed. ...and no we dont have lockers or locker rooms.

Yes we are in the military, but to a man we are professional and all we want to do is do our job to the best of our abilities especially in the cases listed above. If we cannot due to this directive then the directive needs changing, and our concerns regarding tasking and merely doing our job needs to be addressed.

What we have seen over the last six months is a gradual introduction of several minor factors which make our job harder to perform; eg new planning software which has put us back on whiteboards and excel spreadsheets; an imprest system which means you can't afford to eat ($57 per day for breakfast lunch and supper) and this directive. I just know there will be those saying " dry your eyes", but they have made the job harder and less enjoyable. FACT.

Although these are uncertain times, the pools are drying up and people are still leaving and planning to leave. The train is only half full and the rest of the carriage are now thinking of getting off at the next stop.

Trivial this may be, but combine it with the other trivialities and then try and explain to me how there isnt a push factor.

[Grabbers]

What about the part of the IBN that states you are expected to wear uniform to/from work ....... ? Mixed clothing and civilian clothing will not be tolerated. Do we all get hostile environments and defensive driving training, backed up with a trusty 9mm? I'll take my chances in front of the staish as opposed to durka durka jihadist!

[MG]

AQ don't work like that.

[Grabbers]

.............yet.

[Pontius Navigator]

Grabbers, mixed civvies/uniform was never permitted. You could wear a civvie jacket over your shirt in your car. Once in the car park at work you were not permitted to wear that jacket to the sqn. If you chose to fill up the car so attired on the way home then you were breaking the rules.

[Farfrompuken]

To be honest I thing there's little point in getting one's aircrew long-johns in a twist over this.

This new directive will get a thorough ignoring refecting the level of importance it carries.

Sadly, it's been borne out by a bunch of Airships whose last experience of operations was probably, er, um, the Cold War? These characters whose job it is to provide and support for the operational aspects of our force have clearly lost touch with what's important; i.e..... ensuring the RAF has the capability and capacity to deliver to its customers, something which is lacking at the moment.

[ex fat repair team]

Flying suits symbolise the hard work and achievements aircrew have made to get where they are. They identify us as such and we are proud to wear them. Taking that away is a slap in the face, frankly. It makes no difference to your working day, or your lot in life, if we wear them or not, so what exactly IS your problem?

If you have an issue with it, go and do selection, and presuming you are deemed suitable, do the necessary trg, then you can wear one yourself.

Until then, dry your eyes, princess

Well there you have it, the flying suit is a symbol of look at me i am better than you.

I await the day you turn up for a job with a civie airline.

[wg13_dummy]

Flying suits symbolise the hard work and achievements aircrew have made to get where they are.

Does that include the fat wasters who drag their guts down the back end of VC10s and Tristars? Air Stewards, yep, they really epitomise the achievements required to wear a lycra flying suit. :D

[ex fat repair team]

If you have an issue with it, go and do selection, and presuming you are deemed suitable, do the necessary trg, then you can wear one yourself.

TheInquisitor,

By selection do you mean running around the Brecons for week's, in which case you have my blessing to wear your growbag with pride.

[Pontius Navigator]

eftr, indeed we did run around the Brecons for a week or more. Got so wet that the 10 bob note in my wallet also got soaked. Next day we got warm again as the sheet of ice on our combats insulated us from the wind.

[OHP 15M]

This current resurgence of the age-old flying siut debarcal takes me back to the mid 80's at ISK. The highly paid thinkers at the time mandated that SAR crews, on immediate readiness to get airborne within 15 mins (or quicker) of the hooter going off, wear blues rather than grow-bags. What a caffuffle (and delay) as scrambled crews struggled to get airborne whilst trying to change out of blues into flying rig. In fact, crews would often get airbone in blues and then get changed later on during the sortie ... the general attitude being 'let's get the bloody job done, try to save some poor sods lives and worry (possibly) about the rules & regs later'. I'm sure most of you would agree that this was a rediculus state of affairs and you'd probably question the sanity of the policy makers, as we did at the time. Admittedly, this salty tale may be slightly off thread, but not in terms of the source of such downright nonsense that sparked this inane thread in the first place! :ugh:

[Inside Out]

I understand that these measures are a result of the 'National Recognition Study'. Dare I ask if anyone knows who commissioned this study and - dare I ask - how much it cost? :uhoh: Did they cover enemy aircraft, ships and weapon systems too?

These new uniform directives are supposedly to "support a stronger profile for the RAF"...... Why do we need a stronger profile? Do we have competitors who also provide 'Air Power'?

Has our profile diminished in recent years? Is it, by any chance, proportional to the reduction in size of the RAF? (Not to mention that the RAF is now pound for pound stretched far more thinly than I can ever remember.)

Do we need a stronger profile because there is a recruiting problem? Will seeing people driving to work in blues have much effect on this? I personally think not. When I was young, the sort of things that made me want to join up were- seeing RAF aircraft tearing through valleys at low level, - or me going to one of the many station airshows/open days that would happen each year. Obviously there are far fewer bases and far fewer aircraft and what we have has been leaned to the bone - making profile raising events impracticable. As for low flying aircraft - they do tend to be noisy and might upset a voter!

Wouldn't it be better to raise our profile by using the media with a few more fly on the wall documentary type programmes? Or would that make the public realise that things are not perhaps as they should be - putting the airships and the government in a bad light?

- Perhaps we should just distribute lots of smiling cardboard cut-out RAF personnel around the country to make the public think about us more often! ......Sigh!...:(

[brit bus driver]

Notwithstanding the latest raft of ads on the telly about how you can do so many things other than fly in the RAF, I assume the core target audience is young chaps/chapesses intent on strapping a Typhoon to their backsides? I do hope so.

Thus, a question......

When in public in short sleeve No2 (would that be 2B; blunty input required please), compare the number of times little Johnnie asks 'are you a pilot' with the number of times you get asked to help start the car/directions to the nearest wherever etc....it's a.n.other blue uniform in a sea of dull blue uniforms.

Wear a flying suit in public, complete with wings and perhaps those natty shades favoured by Pylot, and the future aviators identify you immediately. :cool: True, some aircrew can look a bag of $hit in a flying suit, but then they are just as likely to look so in blues as well, so scotch that argument.

Thus, in BBD land, aviators would wear flying suits, period. The USAF may have changed recently, but for some time, the grobag has been dress of the day for aircrew, even those in HQ posts? Bloody right too.

In my current job, the brave guardians of the autopilot are given a different uniform to wear to identify them as that. Crikey, one's name badge even has the temerity to identify you as a pilot....how elitist...

[old-timer]

How appropriate - being on the ground is blues enough so why not wear blues too & go the whole hog too !

Let us fly ! - grounded is no place to be, best head to the bar until it's time to fly again.:ok:

[ex fat repair team]

Thus, a question......

When in public in short sleeve No2 (would that be 2B; blunty input required please), compare the number of times little Johnnie asks 'are you a pilot' with the number of times you get asked to help start the car/directions to the nearest wherever etc....it's a.n.other blue uniform in a sea of dull blue uniforms.

Wear a flying suit in public, complete with wings and perhaps those natty shades favoured by Pylot, and the future aviators identify you immediately. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cool.gif True, some aircrew can look a bag of $hit in a flying suit, but then they are just as likely to look so in blues as well, so scotch that argument.

Thus, in BBD land, aviators would wear flying suits, period. The USAF may have changed recently, but for some time, the grobag has been dress of the day for aircrew, even those in HQ posts? Bloody right too.

In my current job, the brave guardians of the autopilot are given a different uniform to wear to identify them as that. Crikey, one's name badge even has the temerity to identify you as a pilot....how elitist...


Please don't take this the wrong way. Joe public relates to the brave guys returning home wearing desert cam'o and not someone wearing a flying suit.

To all the guys on op's in Stan and Iraq we the British public thank you.

[sooms]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Bean Counters have got a hand in this.

Blues are probably the cheapest form of uniform currently on issue, certainly cheaper than a flying suit/ flying boots etc...

Somebody has probably worked out that it costs less to replace a pair of No2 trousers and shirt than a flying suit or CS95 and sold it that way. Especially if the Commissioned Types have to buy them.

Likewise, there's probably a limited budget for CS95, stocks of which are probably controlled by the Army.

I remember back in the 80's/90's that flying boots were considered 'gucci' for wear on guard/exercise (pre boots combat high) and getting your mitts on a pair was a major coup. Some bright spark worked out that the RAF's yearly total of flying boots issued added up to each aircrew member wearing out 7 pairs of boots per year!

[formertonkaplum]

This is simple and we are constantly having Ethos and all that Crap thrown at us by the Romper Suit wearing ones, the ones with minimal leadership experience who get to play top banana! Now its your turn.

They have this time offended you and I am agast as to the out cry.

Are we not the Royal Air Force? Do we not WEAR BLUE unless Situational circumstance dictate otherwise? You should be proud of the blue and therefore wear it to and from work, changing into Romper Suits when going flying. SIMPLE.

It is the same as a Tradesmen coming into and out of work in his Denims. They are his work attire like the Flying Suit is yours.

I really don't see your argument.

Please enlighten me ?

[sooms]

No need to shout!!!

[Runaway Gun]

Sorry Wifey - didn't mean to offend... here's the remote control... :ooh:

[Truckkie]

The aim of the Royal Air Force is flying and fighting

The aim of those that don't is to support those that do.

If my being a 'romper suit wearer with minimal leadership skills' upsets you then why don't you just f:mad:k off?

If, as predicted, the RAF falls below 66% manning in front line aircrew posts in the near future there probably won't be a need for quite so many support posts.

The RAF is about Air Power, which, I know may be hard to stomach to the REMFs out there, is about the people who deliver that Air Power - Aircrews!

Keep pushing and nibbling away and you will be left with a National Static Aircraft Force - who will probbly look very smart in their blues and emblazened coveralls.:ok:

[Co-Captain]

Last time I checked this was a Military AIRCREW forum. I find it pathetic to read all the sniping comments from non-aircrew types who will never understand the sense of pride of pulling on a flying suit, resplendent with rank, name badge, squadron regalia and so on. If you chaps honestly believe that it is comparable to pulling on a set of mucky denims then keep deluding yourselves, but please keep those thoughts to yourselves or to other non-aircrew forums. Or perhaps you think it appropriate for aircrew to come and stick their noses into the day-to-day running of your affairs? There's good lads :ok:

A long-time prune browser (note the credibility lacking post count), I've never stuck my oar in but there you have it, a great big bite! And with that tirade, from yet another case of 'nibbled to death by ducks', I'll return to under my rock.

Now, where's that iron? The flying suit needs a once over... :rolleyes:

[Nomorefreetime]

Sooms

You are spot on. The story I've heard is £12 million to kit the whole Air Force as it is now, £7 million to kit us with the new proposal.

It is all about the bean counters and nothing esle, the 'them and us arguement' has just surfaced its head as it always does once in a while.

[dallas]

Last time I checked this was a Military AIRCREW forum. I find it pathetic to read all the sniping comments from non-aircrew types who will never understand the sense of pride of pulling on a flying suit, resplendent with rank, name badge, squadron regalia and so on.
Then you didn't check. I'm sure by now somebody has a f-key programmed to paste the sub-text to this forum, found under the pretty yellow bar, but in the mean time: A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

Or perhaps you think it appropriate for aircrew to come and stick their noses into the day-to-day running of your affairs? There's good lads http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Strictly speaking, that's exactly what their airships do to all of us, and you'll note that in the case of the most senior, their managerial qualifications are seemingly born of one shared ability - being able to land a plane.

[Co-Captain]

Hairy muff on the first point dallas. My point still stands on flying suit/denims however.

As for their Airships? Aircrew? Hmm, nominally, yes. But now, more like politicians methinks.

All the best ;)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Just out of interest and not a poke at RAF aircrew (I never gave two hoots what the winged master race wore) but do the other two services manage to provide an effective military force whilst also complying with their respective dress codes?

Do aircrew in the Army and the RN (two organisations with longer links with aviation than the RAF) get so upset about having to take their growbags off?

[Pylot]

i am with Co-Captain on the pride thing. Yes we're all proud to be in the RAF and wearing blues is part of that. For those of us who have the privilege of flying, there is an additional sense of pride in wearing one's brevet, Sqn badge and so on. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Comparing flying clothing with overalls is to fail completely tp understand why we have that sense of pride. I speak as one who as worn both during my 20 year RAF career, and so I do know the difference. The fact is that flying clothing, like rank, is a symbol of status; those who have the right to wear it enjoy that, and those who don't may well envy it. Its just the same old same old, knocking those we envy. I would encourage those of you who allow your envy to get the better of you to and use that energy in a more positive way. Perhaps yoga, or maybe model building? Or you could apply for a job as aircrew and see what all the fuss is about. Job status and rank are, after all passing things, and we are all ultimately on the same team.

It is telling that the AFB chose to wear flying suits and leather jackets with blues as part of their US visit (see earlier in the thread). They obviously want to look the part. I for one will be giving this latest lack of initiative the ignoring it deserves, and am happy to accept the punishment for arriving at my workplace dressed to the the job I am employed to do!

[ex fat repair team]

I have been out of the mob for 14 years now, and it's is nice to see that nothing as changed.

May be if while wearing blues you could also carry a nav bag like your civil counterparts. That way we can still look on you with envy.

[BlindWingy]

Why flying suits enhance the quality of your working life:

1. Full name badges make everything easier, whether its relaxing in the bar, or asking someone you don't know for a favour (we need some form of this for ground branches of all ranks).
2. Its extremely comfortable.
3. Its recognized worldwide in just about every Air Force.
4. 6 pockets plus pen holders make everything easier.
5. Minimal upkeep means more time to focus on the important things in life.

Generall speaking, I assume that someone in a flying suit has had to work extremely hard to earn it, displaying flexibility, initiative and persistence. All good qualities when a job needs doing. Often in the past I've been met by the answer "no" by a person in blue, however people in flying suits tend to reply "I'll find a way".

Unfortunately, those who see flying suits as a mark of elitism are entirely correct. However elitism is required in a job which can easily get you killed if you make a mistake.

[Bertie Thruster]

Sorry: ...............................................


HAPPY HOUR ,- 22 OCTOBER 19xx


I regret having to write to you about your involvement in the antics
in the Mess Bar by the visiting Royal Navy Lynx aircrew after Happy
Hour on 22 October.

(----------) made it quite clear to the Lynx crews that they were not
to climb, up to the roof to place a "zap”. I understand that after he
left the bar, you were the Senior Officer present and that you
encouraged or at least allowed the visitors to draw graffiti on the
roof. I am sure that you will agree that whilst some high spirits in
the Mess are acceptable - and indeed are part of Mess life -
despoiling the decoration is not. We would otherwise, end up with a
bar reminiscent of that at Mount Pleasant if we allowed our visitors
to act in this way.

Under normal circumstances, I would write to their Squadron Commander
and enclose a bill for removing the graffiti; however, your
involvement prevents me from doing so in this case.I would therefore
be grateful if you would arrange for the drawings to be removed. If
you have any difficulty with this, I will raise a Work Service on your
behalf.

1 would also be grateful if you would assist me and the other Station
executives in applying the Mess rules regarding the wearing of flying
clothing in the Bar. If the rules are flouted, we aviators will end
up with the privilege removed.

Yours (------------)

[Al R]

Pylot said; I for one will be giving this latest lack of initiative the ignoring it deserves, and am happy to accept the punishment for arriving at my workplace dressed to the the job I am employed to do!

Fair enough. But just out of interest, if you were due to be gassed later that day, would you get togged up in IPE before leaving home?

[BEagle]

No Al, I imagine that people would observe the relevant NBC Dress State as directed by the GDT (or whatver the latest trendy TLA is) staff.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

And I'd certainly recommend people to take it off and let it air before shoving it in the car boot again! Why didn't we used to keep it at work? Simple, no clothing lockers and NBC kt was all too easily stolen by others who'd lost theirs.

One lazy sod (a PPRuNer - You Know Who You Are!) had cut out a section of an aircrew NBC inner, which he used to wear on exercises pretending to be fully dressed in the real thing - but as only the zipped section could be seen, he got away with it for ages until 'someone' cut it in half. He then had no option but to wear full NBC IPE as we were only issued with 1 inner for exercises! After Gulf War 1, all the combopens, NAPs and BATs which we'd forgotten or failed to return used to end up in his desk drawer!

Of course it's always worth a good check of your respirator haversack; back in the early 1970s when we had squadron NBC stuff held centrally. someone issued me with an NBC haversack which was supposed to contain an S6 - when I checked all I found was a squashed coke can, an apple core and a mouldy sandwich corner!

Back to the thread; I really cannot see why anyone on a ground tour would wear a flying suit.

I once attended an EW course at Boulmer (in blunty blue) and was told that they'd had to tell other aircrew that flying suits were not to be worn for the course. Fair enough, but what sort of dickheads would expect to? Presumably the same as the pair of poseurs who drove in flying suits and aviator shades in a BMW convertible from Coningsby to Waddington for a 4-star briefing. They gave the impression of being silly little boys who'd dressed up to look 'kewel'...:rolleyes:

No wonder there is some anitpathy towards inappropriate wearing of flying clothing! But an ALJ with blunty blue shirt and trousers, whilst contravening the regulations, does look a whole lot better than that paeodphile's pullover.

[airborne_artist]

Do aircrew in the Army and the RN (two organisations with longer links with aviation than the RAF) get so upset about having to take their growbags off?

Can't speak for the AAC, but in the RN growbags are only worn for flying. The rest of the time the aircrew wear the rig of the day, so apart from the size of their watch you'd have no way of telling aviators from non-aviators. Wings are not worn on woolly-pullies, jim-jams etc. :ok:

[Rigger1]

Besides, in blues there is always the chance, from behind, or from a distance, of Aircrew being mistaken for somebody unimportant who didn't try hard enough at school.


I assure you I tried very hard at school and since then to go on and do my engineering degree ... what ground crew with a degree, well yes, quite a few of us have one you know (my ex chief had 3) .... and we don't all want to be officers, and believe it or not, not everyone in the RAF wants to fly.

As for your flying suits, I agree they are a symbol of how hard you have worked to get where you are, no one is arguing with that. But remember, you aint going flying without the rest of us, you aren’t getting fed, paid, talked down safely or your Velcro put on your flying suits for all your badges or even your flying suit given to you in the first place, so get off your high horses and join the blue team.

You can teach a monkey to ride a bike, but have you ever seen one fix it!

[brit bus driver]

You can teach a monkey to ride a bike, but have you ever seen one fix it!

Tempting, so very tempting......:}

[HEDP]

Regards the AAC,

Working dress is the order of the day. For ground crew this is CS 95 and for aircrew this is flying suits for a normal working day.

PPE relevant to engineers, MT and apron operations is generally adopted when at work.

Aircrew coveralls are generally peridically maintained and if found worn, POL contaminated or the like they are replaced post haste so it is not considered to be an issue for use in the messes for lunches etc. and until a certain time in the evening in the bar whereas work coveralls might be.

A grown up, mature attitude that appears not to be as devisive as it is in other services......

HEDP

[formertonkaplum]

Truckie & Co-Pilot: Your appear to be exactly the kind of Moron that makes it to Air Rank with F*CK ALL Leadership Ability or Experience. You are the reason Ground Trades Dislike Aircrew. Your clearly up your own Ar*e with your resplendance.

Wanke*s. Now pop off to clothing stores (ask someone where it is), and get some Blues that fit.

Dallas: :D

[Zoom]

...not everyone in the RAF wants to fly.

I don't beleeeeeeeeeeeve it!!

You can teach a monkey to ride a bike, but have you ever seen one fix it!

Nope, but I have seen ....... no, stop it right now, but brit bus driver is oh so right!

;)

[Pylot]

I noticed that the new (lack of) initiative states that we are to wear blues whilst traveling to and from work, whether on foot, by car or cycling. The only exception is to be motorcyclists, for obvious reasons. Should make my 15 mile cycle commute interesting, I may be less than presentable after an hour of wind and rain on my iron horse. I suppose I could always change into my flying suit!!!. I wander whether they have any RAF approved free cycle kit in stores...

On a serious note I am not sure that we can be realistically expected to expose our families to additional risk with the terrorist threat at 'the severe end of severe'. Duty of care? Best wear civvies and change into that divisive green bag later then..

If I wanted to wear a uniform in public, it would be No.1s with medals. I would expect to upgraded when traveling on the train or by civ air though, like our American colleagues often are. Or should I expect to be detained at check-in as a security risk. Not very joined-up are we?

A better way for the AFB to spend its time (and money) might be to try to stem the unrelenting exodus of experienced tradesmen and aircrew leaving the Service in their droves right now. This kind of thing does not help.

[mugwuffin]

Bravo pylot. Nice to see someone with a common sense attitude to this announcment.

[CounterSunk]

A better way for the AFB to spend its time (and money) might be to try to stem the unrelenting exodus of experienced tradesmen and aircrew leaving the Service in their droves right now. This kind of thing does not help.


Amen to that.

[Co-Captain]

Formertonkaplum: Inspired rhetoric, mate! I really am speechless. Keep taking the tablets dude :)

'Heads off to clothing stores to get new set of blues and Air Rank braid...

[Pontius Navigator]

Nominally it is a recognition thing. We are not in competition with any other air force but with the Army and Navy and the Treasury. We wish to 'engage' with the public and increase both public support and recruiting. It is all part of CAS's engagement strategy.

Yes, blues have to meet the least stringent requirements - they don't need to be wind resistant, fire retardant, easy care, rip stop and the contract can be awarded to the lowest bidder withou any effect on on'e conscience.

Is it a spur of the moment thing? No, CinC made the announcement 6 months ago so it is surprising it took that long. Publication on Tuesday for imlementation on Wednesday certainly confirms the long term planning and deep thought on its introduction.

As for back sliding, sqn cdrs have been told they will get an adverse comment on their ARs if they don't play the rules.:mad:

[Data-Lynx]

Can anyone tell me what happens if you do not comply with this instruction?

A good plate of fish, chips and mushy peas in the mess of a bunker SE of Watford on Friday suggested that this Joint HQ could not have received the message. A look at the senior rogues gallery reminded me that while their three 2*s comprised two helicopter pilots and a Civil Service high flyer, none had ever worn light blue uniform.

More likely is that the RAF have posted some very capable people there so perhaps some common sense was prevailing?

[Pontius Navigator]

non-compliance = mandated adverse comment on ARs.

Same as attitude to sport will raise an advers comment. Ditto equality and diversity.

The number of non-compliance areas that will be commented on is increasing and seems very liberal- socialist-PC driven. Gone are the boxes "drinks regularly and unwisely"

[Nat O'Thee]

Train as we fight has been replaced now then I guess? Always said fight as we train would be a cheaper option.

As for Blue instead of CS95, what a load of rubbish - we should have got rid of working blue ages ago. We keep being told we are an Expeditionary Force, but how about dress green think green, dress blue think blunt!

Cant really see the reason for the change, the, we are in the RAF we should wear blue line doesnt work for me, last time I looked I wore a blue beret, had Royal Air Force written over my right pocket and a large RAF flash on my right arm.

As for being recognised by the public, I concur with previous comments on being linked to the RAC, at least in green we were confused with a military organisation.

[TheWizard]

Can't speak for the AAC, but in the RN growbags are only worn for flying. The rest of the time the aircrew wear the rig of the day, so apart from the size of their watch you'd have no way of telling aviators from non-aviators. Wings are not worn on woolly-pullies, jim-jams etc. :ok:

Except all those RN who are currently working on RAF Sqns at the moment of course.
Trying to make out one Services aircrew are any better than the other with regards to this petty issue is just as petty.:hmm:

[SRENNAPS]

This thread is brilliant. Nine pages of something so trivial it makes me wonder if a lot of people on this site are more concerned about the amount of salt in a Sainsbury sandwich than going on an operational tour. Get a life some of you.

I must admit that when I was in I never had a problem with aircrew wearing flying suits. They are smart, look professional and show an identity. When on detachment, particularly in places like Nellis and TLP I always wore an aircrew Jacket with my name and Sqn badges. The Sqn Flt Sgt always had ago at me, but hey that’s what grumpy old Flt Sgts do. There is nothing wrong with a bit of pride in what you have achieved or what you belong to.

As for the argument about wearing denims; are you really that bitter and twisted that you would wear (even a LOX Bay Pair) a pair of denims in the bar/Tescos/your own home because the aircrew wear growbags.

And to you aircrew that think they walk on water, never forget that history has proved that most people can fly after a bit of practice. There are a lot more people out there in the world that have worked just as hard as you in school and they chose to do something else. Even ragheads and Welshmen can fly planes, so it can’t be that hard. You are just doing a job that a lot of people could do if they had to or wanted to.

[Bertie Thruster]

Sorry Wizard.. it was me wearing the flying suit.

...seem to remember the Navy guys were already in civvies, ready for a night out.............

[minigundiplomat]

From 'No Escape Zone' by Lt Cdr Nick Richardson.

'The dress code for anyone not used to life on the ocean in the service of Her Majesty must seem a little arcane, but if your not flying in the first wave, you don't get to wear your flying kit at breakfast, which is a pisser, because given half a chance, it's what we'd all pad around in most of the time.'

Physician, heal thy self.

[TomTom101]

The Red Flying Suit is now obsolete as in order to raise the publics awareness of the RAF all members of the Red Arrows will change into No2 HD uniform before public appearances. The engineers coveralls have been re-branded to look more like a F1 racing team and a modern sports leisure clothing brand has been launched to coincide with this great idea :ugh:

Strong leadership is required to ensure this and other great ideas are successful :=

[Broadsword***]

I'm sure this debate was rumbling along when I last visited PPRune, almost 7 years ago. :zzz:

[pwwuk]

Just read IBN 27/08 - CHANGES TO THE WEARING OF UNIFORM

Sure I'd have been directed to it some time next week, but all the chatter here promoted me to take a look ... It takes a fairly hard line & promotes robust enforcement.. Looks like the SWOs will be busy !

No problem in general as long as adequate lockers, irons, showers and changing facilities are available, and a decent uniform grant to cover the additional costs of having sets on hand to change into, as plans for the day can and do change (None of which will prove to be true). However should we risk uniform getting in the way of a task or even delay a task and our efficiency by preparing and changing uniform. What happened to promoting our being in a state to be optimally agile & adaptable ?

Plan is to fly as crew most of the day = Growbag on the way to, at work, and on way home.

Plan is for Admin / meetings AM & flying PM = Blues AM & Growbag PM but how granular to we need to go ?

But here is the dilemma: a scenario I've got next week ...

Flying as a PAX on Herc : Would usually go for green, but the doc demands a 2* would need to auth ! Blues no good re H&S (Fire, Cold etc), Growbag I'd avoid as although allowed as its a flying related duty, not flying as duty aircrew..

P.

[pwwuk]

"Being part of JHC has its advantages for once!! "

Wizzard .. no joy as the IBN states ..

"..... by the most appropriate RAF 2-star officer - this decision cannot be made by officers from other Services ....."

Unless you transform over to AAC ,, but that looks to the the course that JHC has its eye on for the SHF.

2-stars are going to be busy, can you imagine the hookers in blues with nice new ".... Blue coveralls displaying the RAF logo will be reintroduced to promote the RAF identity in appropriate working environments .... "

[euringineer]

Oh how the world has changed over the last few years. Corporate identity crept up on the RAF in a manner laughable. Whilst many civilian firms have smartened and standardised their corporate dress the RAF allowed itself to be dumbed down. Around Abbey Wood I have seen multiple variations of working dress and none instantly recognisable as RAF. After sorting out the Airmans No 1 HD, which looks the "biz", why didnt they look at No 2 HD and reflect the wishes of those that wear it. In the civil world we wear PPE at the workplace and whatever the company requires on other occasions. You will never find a Civil Airline crew without a smart suit and tie. Civil Cabin Crew have high standards on appearance and grooming. I remember at Faslane being in my PPE and having to get changed to go to the Mess for lunch. I regarded that as normal, just as i had to change to take lunch in the canteen of a major airline. Also Airline Managers conform to suit and tie in the office. If Flying Suits are that contentious why not go back to the old grey/almost Air Force Blue of the 50/60s so you are all of one company and ALL IN BLUES.

[Albert Another]

Of similar note, has anybody worked out a good reason to have ‘Royal Air Force’ on our C95 shirts? Surly our distinctive rank is a clue to our allegiance?

[Pontius Navigator]

Allbert, we are not the only Air Force that uses the rank slides that we so. Indeed I confused an RDAF gp capt (equivalent) who was wearing a wooly pulley. Only the cap gave it away.

Only the proper distinctive RAF Blue is instantly recognisable and that only exists in the No 1s.

In the public perception any one in DPM is Army. Helicopters are Army (BBC in particular).

Equally anyone in a flying suit is Air Force.

If we want identity then we need a recognisable uniform. One in which a brevet can be seen and better medals too. The short sleeved shirt, while cheap and comfortable in a hot office looks like sh1t out in public especially without a tie.

I am not advocating a change to a polo shirt (sh1t with a sweater) but perhaps a switch towards a more recognisable shirt. The USAF changed its rank slides to smarten up their shirts and can wear wings and medals too. The RAAF and RNZAF have brevets on shirts.

So let's go blue but with a smart uniform. No 2 jackets anyone?

PS and use the same colour cloth for jackets and trousers!

[Albert Another]

How about a well made, tailored, wind-proof, shower proof, vented, fleece type, blue No.2 jacket (with flat sewn on rank instead of rank slides on the shoulders)? Modern looking and practical.

[theboywide]

I'm sorry but doesn't all this seem just petty and ridiculous to you?
We have guys on our squadron that are doubling and more harmony stats, we have shortages of manpower so they're working every day back home when not on det and not complaining about that for one minute. It seems like the only reward for many years of hard work. Does it not seem that someone behind the scenes raising all kinds of nebulous crap to make life at home that much harder for guys?
When the retention board sit and discuss why people are leaving do they not sit there and think that it could be to do with not just pay and detachments but also the amount of nif naf and triv back home?
In the last few months we have increased the amount of det prep by half a day, we have raised fitness levels (which i don't disagree with) and in some cases made them an operational standard, we have introduced one of the most ridiculous systems for claiming expenses I have seen which must cost more in accounting expenses than it saves, we are now charging people with a mortgage accommodation & food expenses to go away on work essential courses and stay in the mess, BOCS again has reared its ugly head, annual equality and diversity training, and now this?
What next?

[brit bus driver]

Mass exodus?

[Whereisthegalley]

1. First post, pse be patient.

2. AIDU I look forward to anything interesting or informative you have to say rather than facetious remarks.

3. I do find it puzzling that the issue of flying suits can be so contentious. It's only another form of dress. There seems to be a perception perhaps that aircrew consider themselves elite. I can only speak for myself but I would not be able to go on detachment without all the help from sections on the Stn such as Med and Dental centre, Gym, Regt Section, PSF and all the others. I certainly wouldn't be able to fly and do the job I love without the outstanding work of the ground engineers who have to work in difficult conditions throughout the day and night. I am sure my fellow crew members feel the same.

4. I just wish that once a decision is taken regarding dress policy, it stays in place and is not revisited every time someone up high has another "WAGI". This will then let us all get on with our job without even more nifnaf and trivia.

Regards

"stand by for incoming"

[chippy63]

Albert,
It's some time ago that I visited SHAPE at Mons in Belgium. The place seemed littered with one and two star air force personnel. Turned out that the RBelgAF uses the broad Air Cdre stripe for the equivalent of flight lieutenant.

[Pontius Navigator]

1. First post, pse be patient.

2. AIDU I look forward to anything interesting or informative you have to say rather than facetious remarks.

What a perceptive first post :}

[VinRouge]

I seriously dont have any number 2 dress that fits me any more!

Any SNCO aircrew at lyneham fancy swapping my old clobber at clothing stores for me?

This capped actual thing has hit me pretty hard in the pocket, never mind having to buy blues that until now I have only worn a dozen times since finishing Basic (7 years ago!!!)

[StopStart]

As an aside and if I'm going to have to wear the ole blue clobber, can anyone suggest a decent tailor where I can get some No2 strides run up? My current ones are getting a bit tired and I can't remember where I got them from...

The issue stuff is, I believe, knitted by gypsies from crisp packets and milky way wrappers and as such isn't fit to line my car boot let alone be worn with RAF insignia on it. I could also do with getting some decent blue shirts too - again the issue ones are of questionable quality and something of a fire hazard .....

[Pylot]

You could always wear No.1 trousers, These, complete with a decent set of brightly coloured braces worn over o short sleeve shirt, should get the SWO quite warm under the (blue) collar!

If you do get some strides made, how about a Levis style boot cut, or maybe a narrow leg, with useful thigh-pockets, just to mix it up a little?

On a different tach, what is an acceptable cant angle for a stable belt. Past 45 degrees its more of a corset isn't it? I will ask OC PMS (old nomenclature) , he should know....

Leather jackets look great with blues, and lets face it, what are they going to do about it (apart from possibly have some questionable, if fashionable, same gender attraction issues)? I am going straight to hell....

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Don't you just love it when aircrew squirm ?

[Farfrompuken]

pylot,

Surely you're not suggesting we wear leather jackets with our #2s? I'm fairly sure that extremes of fashion such as Leather and, dare I say it, Denim were outlawed on day 1 of attending IOT?

I think it's a shame I handed back my blue long raincoat as it'd be a good sport to see how many different 'uniforms' we can get on one base.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah, stable belts :)

You mean the corporation support model?

[brit bus driver]

Indeed 'puken. Makes you wonder if anyone in the policy department (dresses etc) has ever looked up the definition of 'uniform'. I reckon you could have a parade with no two people wearing the same iteration of blues. Of course, some should continue to sport flying boots, preferably former bona mates, resplendent with zips. There are at least 3 different wolly pullies to choose from; the delightful nylon jacket, the blue leather one (Jehovah!), Geltex, son of Geltex, rain coat (sorry, I gave mine back) and one of the old stalwarts is bound to have a great coat kicking around somewhere. Throw in some Akrotiri shirts circa 1992 in a totally different shade of blue and you should have a veritable cornucopia of 'uniform' personnel.

:ok:

As for me, I shall just be pulling on the same garb as every other pilot in the company (number of stripes variable), though we do get to choose between a proper tie or a clip on one. Makes life so much easier.

[Admin_Guru]

This decision is Leadership suicide at its best. I have been a member of HM Royal Air Force long enough to have a pension in-sight. With time served both on the ground and in the air. During that time I have seen this 'decision' acted upon at both Sqn and Stn level, and each has died a death within weeks if not months. The logistics required to enforce it (changing room) are not available at every sqn, as even lockers are not in abundance. I give it 6 months max.

As an aside, when steely eyed killer pitches up (in flying suit) at the local garage to refuel his thoroughbred steed, be it 2 wheels or 4, does much to sow the seeds of the next generation of military flyers. Perhaps ex-flyer now adorned with much braid received an "A'right guvn'r" at his petrol station and decided that it was time the poacher became gamekeeper.

The aircrew / groundcrew rig debate is immortal if a little tedious.

[Big Unit Specialist]

How about this for a game - arrange for a day in the none too distant future to turn up to work in "uniform".

The rules are:

You place a sum of money in a pot each time you wish to wear a contentious uniform combination.

You must turn up in some thing that was issued as uniform - not necessarily recently or indeed to you.

If you arrive in work and you are wearing the same uniform as anyone else you must change.....(at least one item must be different) - the army seem to achieve this with no effort.

You must have a plausible reason for wearing the particular combination.

Points are scored for level of interview attained.

If the SWO has a heart attack/aneurism you win the pot.

(please add rules for the game):}

[Farfrompuken]

B.U.S.,

Like it!

Pylot:

I can't believe you've stooped to the depths of leather! I can recall a time where you were in favour of Zero Tolerance to 'extremes of fashion', including spot checks in an individual's mess bedroom (deemed to be Public Places by your rules) and Public areas being extended to a radius of 10 miles. If I recall correctly, a Tesco (Note not Tescos*) shop would require a 3-piece suit as minimum dress standard.

You've changed:{

* Be aware that J. Sainsbury has had to change its name to Sainsbury's due to this phenomenon of adding an 'S' to the end of major supermarket brand's title. I fear that Marks and Spencer may also fall foul of this aberration. Note that Co-Op doesn't thankfully.

[Pontius Navigator]

Got a proper raincoat somewhere, made in 1959. Then there was the flasher mac replacement before the recent (current?) shortie trench coat.

Remember the shiney green nylon rain wear and the blue before it?

I have a Kiwi tropical rain coat somewhere.

[EdSett100]

Is it possible that the CBN was directed to the people working in MOD where, up to now, they have been in civvies?

[Wader2]

How about this for a game - arrange for a day in the none too distant future to turn up to work in "uniform".

The rules are:

You place a sum of money in a pot each time you wish to wear a contentious uniform combination.

You must turn up in some thing that was issued as uniform - not necessarily recently or indeed to you.

If you arrive in work and you are wearing the same uniform as anyone else you must change.....(at least one item must be different) - the army seem to achieve this with no effort.

You must have a plausible reason for wearing the particular combination.

Points are scored for level of interview attained.

If the SWO has a heart attack/aneurism you win the pot.

(please add rules for the game):}

I got as far as 68 combinations without resorting to No 1s or anything green and no leathers. Then I lost the will to live.

[Bertie Thruster]

If you arrive in work and you are wearing the same uniform as anyone else you must change.....(at least one item must be different) - the army seem to achieve this with no effort.

This was the unwritten rule for AAC junior officers a few years ago. If any 2 officers matched in uniform, the officer of lowest seniority had to go and get changed.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Does that now mean that the Officer's hound, four legs, tail waggy, big teeth, must now be of uniform proportion or must be a uniform model?

Rothwell had a Spotty Dog, Punchy Les had Clough, the big f8eck off alsatian, and Glwyn had Jasper a golden lab: mucho heapo trouble there and all those Number 2s :p

[skippedonce]

EdSett110 asked: Is it possible that the CBN was directed to the people working in MOD where, up to now, they have been in civvies?

IBN 27/08: There will be no change immediately for personnel serving in the MOD in London. However, visitors to MOD may wear uniform as they see fit.

So, those in the most publicly visible place are not currently required to comply with the corporate image we're trying to project.:ugh:

[Training Risky]

10 pages distilled into 2 sentences and a statement....here is the ground truth:

1. Aircrew (Pilots, Navs, ALMs etc), FCs, ATs, AIAs (yes... Airborne Intelligence Analyst!), Hosties and Flying Nurses will continue to wear growbags because it is comfortable and easy to pull on, and they can claim that EVERYTHING they do is flying-related even when there is no chance of flying (Ops desk, sim trg, etc).

2. All of us who wear CS95 on a regular basis (certain Engineers/Intelligence dudes) will be forced back into RAC patrol uniform with no parole. This makes us the ones who should be whining, not the growbags!

3. Air Cmnd is...fiddling while Rome burns...rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic/Herald of Free Enterprise...emptying the Thames with a tampon...pick your favourite metaphor.:}

Any questions?

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

If anyone at Benson is bit short of blues, I handed all mine in last week (not a moment too soon by the sound of it). Should be a few blue shirts and trousers knocking about. Seem a bit stretched around the waist area for some reason but perfectly servicable.

[Wader2]

The law of unintended consequences is just about to kick in.

A sqn ldr and above is entitled to first class rail travel. A commissioned officer below the rank of sqn ldr is ordinarily entitled only to a second class ticket. However it is is necessary for him to travel in uniform, ie be seen to be an officer, then he is entitled to be issued with a first class ticket.

Now which budget manager is going to say you must wear civies not withstanding the IBN? :O

PS, while my budman may not have executive responsibilities she still guards the shelks. She issued me with a 2nd class warrant as that is what they always issued. I upgraded myself anyway so they still paid.

[VinRouge]

Wader2, do you have a reference for the above? Might press-to-test on that one...

[Wader2]

I searched the intranet to no avail, then it hit me :)

QR 2505 (2) (b) (v) When an officer is necessarily travelling in uniform for service reasons.

Game, set, match?

[Dockers]

Just to add further; budget managers have no financial authority save for a few areas. Therefore it should be the services which drive the need, not the budget. Its somewhere in the financial management manual (JSP462?) and should be on each budget manager's letter of delegation from the budget holder.

[philrigger]

A commissioned officer below the rank of sqn ldr is ordinarily entitled only to a second class ticket. However it is is necessary for him to travel in uniform, ie be seen to be an officer, then he is entitled to be issued with a first class ticket.

So, an officer in uniform is someone of standing (Or sitting if on a train).

When in civilian clothes he is just another shag and can squeeze in with the rest of the bottom feeders.

[Wader2]

Phil, got it in one. Disgraceful and deceitful I reckon. There used to be a clause that the officer would travel first class if travelling with troops. Of course that fitted very well in the V-force - Chief would travel 2nd and all the aircrew 1st - I think not.

[Wader2]

Docker, quite right.

A line manager may be allocated resources for specific elements of a larger budget, such as overtime, travel or a particular project and the BM has teh responsibility To scrutinise proposals for expenditure.

[Ken Scott]

Having just re-read the uniform instructions, at least the precis supplied to our office, I note that there are only 3 lines on flying clothing, that aircrew will 'wear flying clothing only if they are engaged in, or travelling to/from, home/flying-related duties.' (ie: just about any time on a flying tour). There's alot more about not wearing CS95 unless you're doing something operational. It seems that the 'problem' that the AFB is trying to address is not aircrew in growbags, but everyone else looking like the PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry).

So how come this thread is 10 + pages of mostly aircrew v groundcrew & the boring flying suits debate?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ken, you are right in theory and, at a secret base near me, right in practice. However you can be sure that someone somewhere will go that extra mile for that extra brownie point.

I was going to say the last time it happened but perhaps it has happened since 1983 as well, anyway we were on a Pan diversion to a base in the midlands. After we discussed the nature of the emergency we were asked if we had uniforms with us. If we only had flying suits we would not be allowed in the mess and would have to go to a hotel downtown.

We opted to divert to the adjacent airfield. However once there we were told we would be confined to the scruffs bar. Instead we simply blended in with the GAF crews at the opposite end of the bar.

Crazy? Yup. Will it happen again? You bet.

[Data-Lynx]

Pontius Nav. I have watched this thread with horrified awe and yet here I am adding the 210th note in six days. Your point about rig and diversions is soooo true.

Try a civil diversion. Dressed as PBI, a joint collection of self loading baggage departed BZZ for ASI and South Africa in a Tri* and sometime later landed at Manchester. We were dispersed to various hotels and our gear stayed onboard. When the bird was fixed, the airport authority held us in coaches outside the fence until such time that we could be taken direct to and loaded immediately on the aircraft, even though it was night. The point for this thread is that they did not care what we were wearing.

[CirrusF]

Unbelievable thread. I do all my flying in shorts and a t-shirt. Far cooler in more ways than one than a stinky growbag.

[Grimweasel]

He he, Hence the LOL at the end of the thread! Hope you are well 81mm? Adjusting well to new life? Wouldn't have had this dripping in our day hey! LOL
Keep it green indeed!
Grim

[TheInquisitor]

Now which budget manager is going to say you must wear civies not withstanding the IBN?
None of them. The IBN clearly states that commanders (and by implication, budget managers) cannot override the directives at will.

This will get interesting, once the flood of applications for 1st class season tickets and warrants comes in the door.

Just out of interest, does this include air travel also.....?

[Grabbers]

What about the travelling in purely civilian clothing to work before changing? Security is not a dirty word.

[Wader2]

Grabbers,

maybe but:

uniform should now be worn in all work-associated situations. Accordingly, personnel will be encouraged to wear uniform when travelling between their homes and places of duty; this applies equally for journeys on foot, in private cars or on public transport. . . .
As such, it will be entirely normal for personnel to visit local amenities such as shops, petrol stations and cafes in uniform, when these visits are linked to duty time: ie, travelling to and from work and during lunch-time or other breaks.

To say no warrant because you don't need to travel in uniform is hardly encouraging wearing of uniform when travelling.

Rock and a hard place?

[Grabbers]

Wader,

My point is if I choose to wear civilian clothes to/from my daily commute am I in breach of the IBN? I'm sure it states after the 'encouraged' bit that it is difficult to envisage circumstances under which travelling out of uniform would be approved. Now, as I go to the trouble of varying both my route and method of transport where do I stand?

[Wader2]

My point is if I choose to wear civilian clothes to/from my daily commute am I in breach of the IBN?

No, that is your choice. If you were to wear a civvie coat over uniform then that would be a clear breach.

I'm sure it states after the 'encouraged' bit that it is difficult to envisage circumstances under which travelling out of uniform would be approved.

There is no mention of approval or otherwise for travelling in civvies.

Now, as I go to the trouble of varying both my route and method of transport where do I stand?

If you are standing on the underground then you are simply increasing you commute time. If you mean travelling by car then you are increasing travelling time and fuel costs.

the practice of covering up uniform was instigated in response to the Irish Republican terrorism campaign of the 1980s and 1990s – but is no longer relevant.

PS, don't shoot the messenger.

[Grabbers]

On the contrary, thanks for clearing that up. I know the word used is 'encouraged' but I had clearly misinterpreted the following passage. At least I don't have to put away my hoodie and prison white trainers.

And just because I vary my route doesn't necessarily mean I increase mileage etc. :ok:

[doubledolphins]

Thread seems to have wandered a bit. So to get it back towards the original question. Would any one wear a growbag flying in the back of a public transport jet. Either in first, buisiness or cattle? ;)

[Wader2]

DD, yes, it's been done, immersion suit, life jacket, bone dome, parachute, the lot. I would have done anything to see the other pax faces.

But I thought Christmas tree thread more interesting.

[TrembleInAmf]

Fook me 11 pages of slack jawed mincing about wearing blues, simple stuff ya bunch of mincers, wear blues to work, put overalls on (or as you call them flying suits) to do your job, and then at the end of the day put blues on to go home. For christ sake if techies can cope with the simple tasks of engineering buttons and zips you winged master race chaps should find this a breeze.

I tried to travel to work in civvies once however the immersion suit required to get to the rig kind of put the mockers on that, i tried to argue that the jeans and works polo shirt i was wearing looked smart and in keeping with my companies ethos, however "the man" said i was looked a state, and would die if we ditched. So oddly enough i obeyed the rules. Still you get some uneducated 'tards that think they are above rules and regs, pity they don't realise how far down the food chain they are.

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting response, 10 days after the topic has died a natural death by someone who has failed to grasp what the f*** it was about.

Slight up date.

There are NIL stocks of RAF Blue overalls with RAF Logo and no forecast for availablity. There is some other nil stock and nil forecast item but f'''''d if I can be bothered to remember what it was.

[BEagle]

Morale....................

[Data-Lynx]

I know I risk excommunication for dusting off this thread, but it would be worth it. The emergence of so many strangely light blue at work this morning has been akin to a David Attenborough series on butterflies.

I cannot remember such a target-rich environment in a Joint HQ, particularly when so many seem so sheepish about so little. Even the civil servants have joined in and we have been smiling since the first cup of tea. We have listened to bizarre conversations about the correct colour of tights with rig and the challenge of shaping 'chippies' to the head. I have seen the imprint of buttons on pockets where the unexpected hot iron had shattered them and commiserated that stores had run out of replacements.

Yes. We will get over it and work is already returning to normal. Meanwhile, taken a note to self to remind 1SL at the next fireside-chat that the RN does not follow, not even out of curiousity.

[Pontius Navigator]

CAS's cunning plan pays dividends.

While shopping in a well known, low cost store, in uniform:

"Oi, do you work here?"

Clearly the rank tabs, brevet etc and the fact that the store staff wear blue shirts and trousers confused the poor man.

At least I now know I am not limited to McDonut's for a job.

[I'm Off!]

Very relieved to see that the one high profile place in the capital that could have set the tone has deliberately excluded itself from this ill thought out debacle - MOD. Wonder why? Couldn't be the Snr Officers are in receipt of civilian clothing allowance, could it??? Do as we say, not as we do......

[Wader2]

I was at LAND on Friday, saw a figure in blue/grey slacks wearing a navy blue bomber jacket and on his head a chip bag. On the chip bag was a minute crown and eagle.

Now the media gurus have decided that Joe Public does not recognise the crown and eagle and associated the roundel with certain fashion clothing so they designed a new scripted logo to go with the roundel.

So how does wearing an anonymous blue outfit, without and obvious identity, help advertise the Royal Air Force?

At least the SD Hat with its prominent badge would be far better, as indeed would a beret as berets now are quintessentially British military.

[I'm Off!]

OK AIDU, what affects the average serviceman more on a day to day basis? And don't bother coming out with any bo**ocks about US presidential foreign policy. What about the directive to travel in blues (you are to...) on public transport? What about the abuse from certain undesirables? How about on a bike? It says "you are to...", but if I live 10 miles from work is that practical? So, you get over it!!!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Urban myths of our time. No 38 in a series of 1 000 000:

Couldn't be the Snr Officers are in receipt of civilian clothing allowance, could it?

[Pontius Navigator]

Anyone seen an airman in blues out in the wild so to speak?

I don't mean just outside the camp but say some distance from the unit? I saw a flt lt yesterday in the street, in shirt sleeves and stable belt (truss?), but that didn't really count as he had nipped out of the recruiting office.

What is the most senior sighting? I saw a gp capt shoping once and a wg cdr OC Admin too, who was wearing a foul weather jacket in Marks and Spencer, but they were rare glimpses.

[Radhaz]

Went to a meeting at HQ 22 Gp the other day - in blues (as is the order). At reception I was told that blues are banned! It would appear that it is a "security risk" given that the building does not have "proper security". So, it is OK, in terms of being a soft target, for me to go to the local supermarket to buy sandwiches for lunch, but not for the big HQ building.
:ugh:

[Wrathmonk]

Rad

Do you really mean HQ 22 Gp? Isn't that inside the wire at High Wycombe? Or were you at a meeting at (HQ?) MFTS?