Hours building certification!

[komn]

hi there I was just looking for a little bit of help on this question, if two friends are doing shared hour building at a airport in Florida who has to certify the hours flown, do both pilots sign each others log books, or do you have to get an instructor to?

any help would apperciated?

[Check Airman]

The FAA regs only require that the name of the safety pilot be recorded; (s)he doesn't have to "certify" it as such.

[malc4d]

Hour building holding just a PPL only one pilot can legally log the time. But its your log book.

Are they logging under FAA or JAA rules....... find the FAA regs here....
FAA: Home (http://www.faa.gov).....

What are they doing, are they flying practice IFR ???, if doing practice approaches and one is under a view limiting device, then they can log PIC and safety pilot........( I think the PIC must hold a IR rating ) otherwise only one can log the PIC time.


61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General—

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training—

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight—

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, or a flight training device.

(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

(i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must present their pilot certificate, medical certificate, logbook, or any other record required by this part for inspection upon a reasonable request by—

(i) The Administrator;

(ii) An authorized representative from the National Transportation Safety Board; or

(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of the required authorized instructor clearances and endorsements—

(i) Pilot logbook;

(ii) Student pilot certificate; and

(iii) Any other record required by this section.

(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights.

(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo flights—

(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which training was received;

(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air traffic control;

(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or

(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an appropriate category or class rating.

(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight training.

[komn]

thanks for the replys to the question.. no they are just both PPl who are hour building together. One other question if I may, are your log books checked by any body from were you rent the plane, or do the caa check the hours done for hour building?

[madlandrover]

No checking, other than the CAA checking your sums for licence issue. It will however be fairly obvious if you do further training afterwards if you have the claimed hours or not, and how profitably they were used. Not a criticism, just a fact.

[Whopity]

The CAA do check logbooks and are fully aware that double logging goes on in the US. If you claim hours when you were not operating as PIC then you could be prosecuted! Log book fraud runs at around £400 a line if convicted and then you could be deemed to be an unsuitable person to hold a licence!

So put it simply, log the hours that you flew as PIC and the other pilot logs the hours he flew as PIC. You are trusted to do this without any form of certification. If however you abuse the situation, you are cheating yourself and any future passengers you carry!

[IO540]

Log book fraud runs at around £400 a line if convicted and then you could be deemed to be an unsuitable person to hold a licence!

Whopity - are there any prosecutions on this? The CAA prosecution data (on their website) show absolutely no evidence of it.

Not saying it is right, but wondering if the CAA actually care.

[Whopity]

Not sure of any statistics but I know one inspector who spotted 4 false entries in a log book (simply because he remembered the weather on the day in question) and it cost the holder £1200 (1996 prices) and no ATPL issue! The £400 figure was quoted to me as an average by an ARE enforcement officer who said courts understand fraud, but are more lenient with people running out of fuel! The figure varies from court to court.
but wondering if the CAA actually care. If they spot it or suspect it, they are duty bound to pass it to ARE for investigation!

[IO540]

I know one inspector who spotted 4 false entries in a log book (simply because he remembered the weather on the day in question)

How would weather make a logbook entry legal or illegal?

[Genghis the Engineer]

How would weather make a logbook entry legal or illegal?

Because it was unflyable?

G

[Fright Level]

I remember in the early 1990's some guys losing jet jobs because they were discovered with a whole load of Parker Pen hours.

[IO540]

Because it was unflyable?

OK, I see that. I thought the issue was about illegal dual logging or something like that.

However, a prosecution on the basis of "impossible" weather would be tricky to say the least. Somebody crazy enough can always do a flight. They would need records from the airports in question. And if the airports no longer have the records?

It is known for the Inland Revenue to ask for such details when somebody is claiming business mileage.

[B2N2]

Just to be on the safe side, have your hours verified in the logbook by the Chief Flight Instructor of the place you're renting at. Have them sign and stamp it.
Another good one is to keep all the receipts or invoices just as additional proof of hours flown.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However, a prosecution on the basis of "impossible" weather would be tricky to say the least. Somebody crazy enough can always do a flight. They would need records from the airports in question.
If it's a rented plane then the aircraft log books can be checked.

If the pilot owns the aircraft they can falsify the aircraft logs as well - and wind the Hobbs meter forwards.

To avoid, as you suggest, airfield records being checked, they could buy their own strip and falsify those records as well (or simply not keep any). And then bribe the neigbours to agree that vastly more flying than was actually the case had happened.

Sounds like a lot of trouble.

(We're talking hours building in a western county here, not someone claiming to have hundreds of hours P1 bush flying in bits of Africa which are harder to check up on.)

[englishal]

You can't prosecute on the basis of weather unless you are talking RVR or known icing - but icing would have to be the cause of your problems. The ONLY person who can determine in flight visibility and weather is the PIC.

Regarding airfield logs, there are plenty of unmanned fields which have no records, and in many places you are not obliged to file flight plans or speak to ATC, so another tricky one.

BUT it is a very silly thing to do, illegally double logging, if that was the suggestion of the original poster, especially if you are using this time towards a CPL or similar. IF you get found out at some future date, you'd probably have your licence pulled, lose your job and suffer a big fine, not to mention the possibility of prison. A US pilot recently was put in prison for failing to declare a medical condition on his medical application. While flying commercially this condition raised its ugly head and he nearly ended up killing himself and his passenger, and so the FAA certainly took a dim view.

In Ernest K Ganns book, Fate is the Hunter, he recalls a flight from Hawaii where he lets the copilot take control. He is shocked at the standard of flying and later on it transpires that the copilot never had a licence, but had gone for years bull****ting everyone - and got away with it.

[IO540]

I agree completely, Englishal.

The curious thing is to compare the American way with the European way.

In the USA, you could gain by faking logbook entries because certain solo time is allowed towards e.g. the CPL (or instrument time in the IR). But you have to pass the oral exam plus the checkride, so it actually won't do you any good if you aren't good enough. And the FAA does a lot of enforcement of technical breaches.

In Europe, the pilot is assumed to be a crook by default and no solo time is allowed (except the little bit within the PPL, flown within the flying school and on the instructor's insurance), but there is no oral so in theory you could skip a lot of that stuff and just need to pass the checkride. And the CAA does practically no enforcement of technical breaches.

the copilot never had a licence, but had gone for years bull****ting everyone - and got away with it. No suprise there. I had an instructor who told everybody he had an ATPL. Totally made up (BCPL only). Mind you, I think those who know the system would realise this, from his logbook signatures - isn't there a different prefix on a CAA instructor #, for an ATP?

Under the FAA system, anybody can check up using the public pilot data website. Quite funny at times what one finds :)

[Whopity]

However, a prosecution on the basis of "impossible" weather
Quite simple, logbook showing flights yet the aerodrome log showed no movements that day due the weather!

Another example is a rewritten log book presented to an examiner who noted that his previous signature had disappeared along with the test he had conducted, and lots of hours had appeared in a very short period.