Take off and landing at same end of runway (GRX, SXM - where else?)

[jabird]

Noticed at GRX this week that a/c land from, and take off towards the west (runway heading 09/27). When I arrived, I thought this might just be a change of wind direction, but noticed same thing happening on way out.

Granted, there are hills behind Granada itself, but that terrain is some 15k+ away, can think of plenty of airport with much closer obstacles. I know it can get hot there, but should an elevation of 660m, with 2900m runway cause any problems for a typical 738 / 320?

The only other place I've seen this is at SXM (also 09/27), but iirc, it was just the American carriers (CO, AA) who came out over Maho - the others took off towards the east. On this occassion, I was observing from the well known beach, so could see there wasn't much wind about. Is there a minimum wind speed, below which direction doesn't matter?

[Deano777]

Salzburgh is another common one, however take offs in the same direction as landings are not madatory under certain conditions.

[chiglet]

Doncaster/Sheffield Robbing Hoodie do as well, and if traffic permits, so does Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Manchester, and a lot of others :ok:
watp,iktch

[jabird]

Chiglet,

I've never noticed it happen in the UK. Are you saying it can happen anywhere that has a sufficient lull in traffic and low winds, or are there other specific conditions needed? I could see how terrain might have an impact at SZG - and maybe INN too?

I observe traffic at CVT & BHX most - more from cycling around the area than from being a dedicated spotter, and I've never seen the same plane go out the way it came in as such.

I did once experience a go-around as a passenger at LCY, with the pilot then annoucing that he had to spin round once more because the winds kept changing, but that's a completely different scenario to what I saw at GRX, which was everything coming in & going out through the west - as if there might as well have been a mile high brick wall at the east end of the runway.

[Groundloop]

If the surface wind is very light and so is traffic it is not uncommon for ATC to ask captain which runway he/she would like to use. Happens quite a bit at Bournemouth so acft heading west would ask to use 26, aircraft going east ask for 08. Same for inbounds. All the spamcans just get told to orbit out of the way until the big boy has arr/dep.

[angels]

Kai Tak was a good example of a big airport that usually did this.

[Panop]

Brisbane (Queensland, AU) often uses this procedure at night for noise abatement reasons as approaches for runway 19 and take offs on 01 take aircraft over water and largely away from built up areas. All subject to wind and other weather issues, of course. Noise is a bit of a touchy subject as Brisbane has no night curfew like many airports do and all concerned hope that using this system as much as possible will keep demands for a curfew to a minimum - especially now Kevin Rudd is Prime Minister as his home (and his electorate) are just under short finals for 01 as he is known to favour a curfew!

Rarely done in daytime though as it is too busy to risk having conflicting traffic.

[chiglet]

I've never noticed it happen in the UK. Are you saying it can happen anywhere that has a sufficient lull in traffic and low winds, or are there other specific conditions needed?

Yes....I used to work in Manchester Tower,[EGCC] I now work in Manchester Area...[MACC]
Several examples...
XYZ123 inbound to EGCC from the west, [runway in use 23R] "Request straight in R/w 05L"...after MACC?EGCC Approach and Tower agree, "Roger XYZ123, cleared Visual/ILS approach to 05L"..depending on the volume of traffic. eg, 1 a/c at 20 nm for 05, 1 a/c at 60 nm for 23. Perfectly safe, but will not switch ILS
EGNM [Leeds] are on r/w 32, but an inbound from Scotland may be offered 32
EGCN [Donnie] have as SOP r/w 20 arr and 02 dep...Noise
EGGP, [Liverpool] will accomodate "wrong end tfc"
40 years ago at EGBB [Brum] we did "wrong ends"
In the long run, if we can do it we [ATC] will. It uses less fuel, a/c is on frequency less, no mither, no bother, no fuss...ergo, no problem
Oh yes, I'm an Assistant, I just help...it's the ATCO who does the work :D
watp,iktch

[jabird]

Very interesting replies, thanks for the info. Is there a maximum wind speed for such a procedure, or is it more down to traffic / noise abatement?

[900-7X]

A few mountain airports in the US, Aspen CO (KASE) being a primary one.
Here's a visual into ASE...note the departing aircraft opposite direction at 1:13.

YouTube - learjet 60 at Aspen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mnPomo_mRw&feature=relatedhttp://)

[chiglet]

Max wind at EGCC, is 5 kts [sfc] tailwind component, to change runway, but it depends on the "upper" winds
eg, If the 1000ft wind is 050 degrees 20 kts, and the Sfc [Surface] wind is 230 degrees 5 kts, we would stay on 05
Hope this helps
watp,iktch

[Panop]

Many moons ago, in 1975 (though I imagine it still happens), I was SLF on a Mt Cook Airlines HS748 departing Mt Cook Airport in New Zealand. The inbound flight had landed on runway 31.

There was a very strong and turbulent NW wind (at a guess 25kt gusting 40kt) off the mountains blowing into and down the valley in which the field is situated. The runway is aligned, more or less, with the valley and currently has 5,100 ft (I presume the same then) length.

The captain elected to do a downwind take off ('wrong' way) on r/w 13 to avoid expected mountain lee turbulence at the upwind end of the runway. Because the runway is on a slope (70ft difference in elevation between the ends of the runway) this meant a downhill and downwind take off so a considerable ground speed, with screaming Darts, had to be and was achieved before we came unstuck from the runway (someone with the appropriate tech knowledge may like to calculate the groundspeed at V2 in those circumstances).

The cabin crew, who had experienced this procedure before, warned me to expect significant bumpiness just past the end of the runway as we passed over some low hills. Their warning was very handy as it felt as if the poor 748 was being kicked around the skies for about 30 seconds or so just after take off.

On arrival at Queenstown the captain followed me down the steps and could be heard telling the Traffic/Ramp guy "That's it! We're not going back THERE today!":eek:

[Phalconphixer]

A very late response to the original question!

Just resuscitating this thread momentarily; the following may go some way to explain why aircraft landing and taking off from Granada do so to and from the West.

Firstly, the 'hills' to which you refer are rather more than hills...the highest point in Spain Mt Mulhacen can clearly be seen from the airport and reaches 11,500 feet. Mulhacen itself is surrounded by many other high peaks and lies almost due East of the Airport. The whole of the Sierra Nevada Mountain range and its little sister range the Alpujaras are dedicated no fly zones to anything other than National Parks aircraft and flights authorised by the National Parks Authority.

Secondly is Granada City itself which again is a no-fly zone.

Thirdly is the general question of Noise Abatement; the small town of Santa Fe runs almost to the perimeter of the airport. Whilst there are no actual noise abatement procedures to be followed, the airport tries to be a good neighbour; the extended centreline of 09/27 ensures that landings and take offs to and from the west are routed over generally uninhabited areas throughout the last 20 kms from Granada DVOR / DME.

Fourthly is the Military airfield of Armilla which lies immediately to the south of Granada City. There is intensive helicopter flying from Armilla and with a runway length of 4200 feet running N-S any fixed wing movements would almost certainly conflict with commercial traffic to the east of LEGR.

ILS is only available for 09 arrivals. There is no ILS for 27.

A few aircraft do land and take off to and from the east but these are fairly limited and tend to be either GA or Iberia / Air Europa flights and only performed in daylight; there are no published SIDS or STARS for such arrivals or departures.

I live under the Martin 1 Arrivals / Departure track for 09 arrivals 27 departures to the southwest of LEGR. We are also at one end of a hold pattern racetrack. It is quite common to find arriving aircraft in this holding pattern whilst departing traffic clears the area. Quite often this can put a Ryanair aircraft in the hold whilst another Ryan takes off...

Hope this helps!

fb

[JEM60]

Taxied out to runway at Chicago O'Hare in a DC9 to go to Calgary. Got to threshold, Captain on Pa said wind has changed round too much for us, will have to taxi all way to the other end. He said it may feel like we will be driving all the way to Calgary, but we will be taking off eventually........

[EBU42]

EBU - St Etienne.

Most traffic lands southerly and takes of northly, even with tail wind landings. Probably due to hilly terrain just south of the runway.

[Malaysian28]

How about St Barthelemy (SBH/TFFJ) In Guadeloupe/Netherland Antilles.

[Dazbo5]

I've seen it happen at Manchester a few times. For example when the winds are light, Continental 764 and Singapore 777 have chosen to use 23L (longer runway) when other traffic are using 05L.

Another example is Dalaman in Turkey. When traffic is landing on 01, it's common for departing traffc to use 19 because of the surrounding terrain that's invisible at night.

Darren

[Malaysian28]

I was in Ottawa during the summer and remembering watching the active runways from the terminal.

I was a very warm and virtually Wind free day, we had a Cessna go of RWY 14 then a Air Canada 767 of RWY 32.

There where a few other flights that did that during the day mainly small aircraft such as Cessnas and Dash's.

[RB311]

LIRQ or Florence is another example of opposite runway direction operations. Very few pilots are qualified to land on runway 23 due to a tricky circling approach over the city, and so almost all landings are on 05. However, most take offs are off 23 due to the high terrain on the climb out of 05.

We can accept up to a 10kt tailwind on landing on 05 and a 15kt tailwind component on take off on 23. Usually the tower and atis give variable winds.....

[chevvron]

Common practice at Arrecife (Lanzarote) due to terrain to the north east, and at Corfu due to Corfu Town to the northeast.

[eastern wiseguy]

Belfast City have a requirement for the majority of aircraft to arrive and depart over the water,hence,22 arrivals and when possible 04 departures.

[amanoffewwords]

Does it happen in Nice?

[MELLYMELL]

Have also noticed it both times i have been to Lombok (Indonesia).