how much shall i budget if i don get a job?

[mech500]

Hi all,
I'm currently studying for the final stage of my ATPL exams. Given the present airline job market situation, i am considering delaying doing the last exam and also delaying the start of my ME CPL and IR.
I'm trying to work out how much it would cost me to renew these licenses if i dont get a job. I am assuming the they have to be renewed every year? I did a search on this topic but the threads were mainly relevant to people who have already obtained their licenses and therefore confused me further.

I know that the cost of renewal will depend on where you do the training etc but i was after info along the lines of ''you will need to fly a minimum of 12hours in ME aircraft (at a cost of roughly £150p/hour in the UK), the test lasts 2hours, the examiner will charge, say £200 and the CAA will charge a further, say £200....this brings the total to around: £2500 each year to renew the ME CPL"

I could do with a similar cost breakdown for the IR - is there a minimum number of simulator hours you need to fly in IFR in order to keep the IR valid?

... just to make things clear: i have made up ALL the above figures to illustrate the sort of info i am after.

Basically im trying to work out how much to budget AFTER i have completed my training. This includes the cost of flying the minimum number of hours and test fees (both of which i dont know)

Any help would be appreciated.

[eikido]

This is a very good thread.
I'd like to know too :)

So there are two ratings (?) you have to revalidate.

The type rating and IR rating (Did i forget any?).

Then you have all sort of licenses, PPL,CPL,ATPL. I know you must re-issue a PPL license each 5 years (if it isn't a lifetime PPL license), so that shouldn't be to expensive (even the fifth year :).
PPL(A) Revalidation-Renewal (http://www.cosfordflyingclub.org/PPLA-Revalidation-Renewal.htm)
I don't know about CPL and ATPL.

And i don't know prices:p.

Eikido

[mech500]

Spicejetter, thanks for the prompt reply but...

In my original post i say

""... just to make things clear: i have made up ALL the above figures to illustrate the sort of info i am after" In other words £150p/hr - is a random number to illustarte the info i was after.


i also mention that: i am after the...

minimum number of hours and test fees (both of which i dont know)

So to clarify again, i am NOT particularly after the cost to hire a ME plane - as this can be readily found via a google search. More importantly, I am after the minimum number of hours required (for re-validation) and the cost of the skill test, examiner fee, caa fee etc.

I just want an idea on how much to budget, if i dont get a job and i have to pay to do all the minimum hours and tests etc.

Thanks,

[Celtic Pilot]

eikido

Your ppl license lasts for five years however you single engine piston rating lasts for two years. The single engine piston rating can be renewed by two ways..

- 12 hours in the second year of validity and must include at least one hour with an instructor

- Your could also just do a check ride with an examiner in the second year which absolves you from the 12 hour rule.

Not sure about the rest of ratings or license BUT RATINGS ARE NOT THE SAME AS LICENSES

*****REMEBER THAT *******

and also if it expires it will not be a renewal check but a revalidation check ride... just to note!!!

--- Your ppl license is valid from the day the CAA issue it, but your single engine piston rating is valid from the day you pass your ppl skills test...

[eikido]

Yea Celtic, i've heard it many times. Ratings and licenses are not the same.

Also i found out what you have to do for your Multi Engine rating.

From Lasors .
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2008%20(Bookmarked).pdf
Section F3.3
>>>
"Revalidation of Multi-Engine Piston (Land) class ratings
requires a proficiency check with a JAR Authorised
Examiner within the 3 months preceding the expiry date
of the rating*. In addition to this, there is also a minimum
flying experience requirement of at least 10 route
sectors within the validity of the rating. The experience
requirement may be substituted by 1 route sector flown
with an authorised examiner that may be undertaken as
part of the proficiency check. A route sector is defined
as a flight comprising take-off, cruise of not less than 15
minutes, arrival, approach and landing."

* Provided this check is flown within the 3 month period,
the new rating 12 month validity period will run from the
date the old one was due to expire. For revalidation of
instrument rating if held, please refer to Section E1.5.

<<<<

However what the hell is a sector route, i have no idea :}

Edit: Damn, it says in the text what sector route is. haha:8

Eikido

[MIKECR]

The CPL is the licence you will be issued with. Attached to the licence are ratings. Those will be the SEP, MEP, and MEIR. The licenceis renewed by paying a fee to the CAA every 5 years. To renew the ratings however you will need to meet certain criteria. I suggest you check Lasors where you will find all the necessary info. The one that you really need to keep current is the MEIR. The SEP and the MEP are not required for a Type Rating, but the MEIR is. It would be a better idea howver to try and keep all ratings current, keep flying, and keep yourself as employable as possible.

[eikido]

The SEP and the MEP are not required for a Type Rating, but the MEIR is.


Sorry mate, i didn't get that. Does it mean that you don't need to renew a MEP for example if you have an up to date type rating on an ME aircraft (say B737)?

Edit:
I just checked Lasors

F4.3
RE-VALIDATION OF TYPE RATINGS

(AEROPLANES)



But could not find any link to MEP ratings.

Eikido

[MIKECR]

Not quite. To start a Type rating course, you do not require an MEP rating to be current. Only the MEIR. When you complete the TR you will be issued with a new rating i.e. a Turboprop or a jet rating. If you wish to continue flying SEP machines then you will need to renew that rating. Same go's for MEP's.

[mech500]

Thanks for the clarification MIKECR

very helpful - i couldnt understand the previous threads on this topic
too many acronyms.

[AppleMacster]

Mech500,

Be very careful when delaying your ATPL exams. If you do not complete them within 18 months of having taken the first exam and do not get the IR, you will have to take them all again. If you get an IR within the 18 months, they will be valid for seven years. The idea is that you will gain the full ATPL within the seven years.

It's all in LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2008%20(Bookmarked).pdf)

AppleMacster

[eikido]

What i don't understand is the difference between a Class rating (MEP rating or SEP rating) and a Type Rating.

Isn't it a requirement to have a Type Rating for each plane you fly (say C172, PA34, C152)?

Then whats a SEP, MEP class rating?

What i suspect is that if you have a SEP, you can fly all planes that goes under the category SEP. They can be for example C152 and C172.

I have been searching the web and checking lasors, but i can't figure it out.

Eikido

[redsnail]

A class is a group of "types". eg Multi Engine Piston covers all piston twin engines that doesn't need specific handling training for.

A type rating is specific to that type. eg, A B737 type rating is specific to a B737 (breaks it down further to =200, -NG etc). It doesn't cover the A319 for eg.

[eikido]

Cool mate thanks.

So if i had a SEP rating, could i fly the C152, C172 and PA28?

Regards
Eikido

[redsnail]

If my memory serves me correctly, yes. However, most schools/flying clubs will insist on checking you just to satisfy themselves and more importantly, the insurance company that you know where every thing is and you can fly it safely.

You will notice there's no such thing as "MEJ". Multi Engine Jet. There's no training that will cover all jet aircraft in a certain category. That's why you have type ratings.

Also, some piston aircraft have unusual or tricky handling characteristics and they will have a specific rating too. To fly it you'll need to complete a specific detailed course.

[Shunter]

Just to correct AppleMacster who was almost right....

1. All exams must be taken within 18 months.
2. You've then got 3 years from the end of the month in which the last exam was passed to do your CPL and IR and get them issued.
3. ATPL theory credit is then valid for 7 years from the date of your last IR renewal.

[Flying Farmer]

Given the current economic climate why not finish the ATPLs whilst they are fresh in the memory, you really want them out the way! Do the CPL and a FI course and go flying and get both experience and a salary whilst clocking up a few valuable hours. I think the chances of securing any multi crew job right now are close on zero, so get those hours building for the time when recruitment starts again, it gives you a head start.

When things turn around get the multi and IR quickly, as has been said you have 3 years, things will be better by then.

[eikido]

How difficult is it finding FI jobs ATM?
I want to become a FI even if the time is good and there are lots of Multi Crew jobs available.

Eikido

[corsair]

I think it should be said that if you qualify and then merely re-validate your licences and ratings by doing the minimum hours every few years. Then your chance of getting a job even when times get better will remain zero. Currency is very important to airline recruiters. A pilot who did 12 hours last year will compare unfavourably to a pilot who did 12 hours last week.

Stay flying whatever you do.

[JONNY99]

In summing up the cost of CPL/IR and an MCC, roughly what percentage would I need to allow for in addition to the "minimum hours cost"

[Cows getting bigger]

For a moment i thought this was an Air Law query from an ATPL theory student. I'm sure I had to learn revalidation requirements when I took the exam. Combine these with a bit of maths...............:rolleyes:

Johnny, if you're having to account for each hour, may I suggest you're going to get into trouble?

[Mickey Kaye]

"How difficult is it finding FI jobs ATM?"

Pretty difficult and getting harder as more and more people are heading down that route. Having said that if you are prepared to move you will be able to get work.

[TheBeak]

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Plan for the CPL a 5 hour overshoot and the IR a 10 hour overshoot including exam time. I don't imagine the average person would need that but you'd be a fool not to plan on it.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Plan for the CPL a 5 hour overshoot and the IR a 10 hour overshoot including exam time

When I was teaching most people on professional courses that put the work in used the go through in minimum time, however it was the test that had to be done a couple of times, especially the IR, so it is worth thinking about that. I think 5 hours on the CPL is a little excessive. The majority of people that had problems in the CPL was failing one section, i.e getting a partial, so a quick blast, maybe 50 mins to pratice what they had failed would suffice to do a retest. With the IR, if someone got a partial, maybe a session in the simulator and a retest would do the job.

[dartagnan]

if we are talking about UK. I know 50% fail the IR(total fail, or partial), and have to pay 6 hours retraining plus retest. so count 6000-7000 pounds.

i met guys who had to leave the school for several months cuz they were short of money.

for the cpl vfr, no big deal, 1-2 more flights, and redo the test.
generally i would count 30% over your general training. if you training costs 50'000 pounds by ex., count 65'000 pounds.

[TheBeak]

It's an averaged worst case scenario that I have tried to give. I have seen people take more and seen most take less. In fact most not needing it at all. But as I said, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Don't let money add to the pressure.

[JONNY99]

thanks for the help!

[nuclear weapon]

In these present time you will need some back up money. Both for the flight training and the fact that jobs are hard to come by in these economic times.