View Full Version : Job Market


HighFlyer319
18th Sep 2008, 21:53
What's going on with the airline job market at the moment then?



G CEXO
18th Sep 2008, 21:57
No Jobs out there.

G-XO

Deano777
18th Sep 2008, 21:59
Highflyer319 was that a serious question? you're pulling our leg surely? if not where the hell have you been for the last 3 months? :ugh:

JB007
18th Sep 2008, 22:10
Beat me to it Deano! Funny when you read it though...

captain_rossco
19th Sep 2008, 07:29
Must be a joke.

Celtic Pilot
19th Sep 2008, 09:37
nope im pretty sure it wasnt a joke,,, looks like a question to me....

You'd think these airline lads would shed a bit more light on the situation,,, We all know its bad,,, ' the dogs on the street are barking that one', but all is asked is a bit more accuracy on the industry than what ITV or BBC report on the news.....

thats basically it....

To answer the question please give proper answers, Negative or Positive, NOT answers like 'must be a joke'

Remeber there are people just starting out that wouldnt have a notion about the industry so try and have a bit of consideration for them... It is the start of a new thread, which people are already jumping on to kill it..

Wannabe myself, Hearing about the situation from as they say 'the horses mouth' is very much appreciated. What is not appreciated is cheeky arrogant :mad: that are in the airlines and have no consideration for people looking to get in...

G-XO answer is more appreciated....

Rember every needed advice from within the industry to get where they are today,, JUST REMEMBER

RANT OVER

PKPF68-77
19th Sep 2008, 09:51
Too right, C Pilot.

When I was 20, I only knew a fraction of what I know now about business, politics, the economy, etc. I simply was not interested - the subjects made my eyes glaze over.

Many "airmen" were absolute gentlemen, I found, but some were arrogant, pompous and rude overgrown schoolboys.

Dont crush the young with the "Monty Python Foot" please.

Another rant over

D O Guerrero
19th Sep 2008, 09:54
From a low-hours point of view, the situation is pretty awful. I graduated from my FTO in June. At the time, the only people recruiting low-hours pilots were BA and Ryanair, with the odd trickle of people going to the likes of Tyrolean, Air Southwest and Flybe.
The situation now is that BA have ceased recruiting low-hours pilots for the moment. Given that they have been told to reduce the management headcount by 30% by Christmas, I think it is unlikely that they will start recruiting pilots in the near future. As I understand it, they have honoured all interviews that were promised, however people succeeding at recent selection boards (& JOC) have been placed in the hold pool.
I don't know exactly the situation at Flybe, but I haven't heard of anyone getting a place there of late.
Ryanair have now stopped recruiting until the Spring at least. They have filled all TR courses, with the last one starting at Stockholm in mid Oct. They currently have triple the number of usual applicants following the collapse of XL et al.
Tyrolean have gone very quiet but in any case, the number of UK low hours pilots getting places has been very small.
I know of one person getting a job at Air Southwest in the last few weeks.
That's basically it, to my knowledge.

MIKECR
19th Sep 2008, 11:08
Flybe are concentrating just now on converting the embraer crews onto the Dash. That may take a little while yet to see through. Im led to believe(I stand to be corrected however) there is still a small(albeit very small!) trickle of other pilots being recruited.

I think easyjet may have a trickle being taken on but all in all no major recruitment.

Ryanair, as someone else has mentioned, appear to have stopped recruitment til Spring.

BA have closed doors just now.

As for the charter's, I guess we'll have to wait and see what the schedules for next summer bring. The likes of Jet2 etc will presumably be deciding within the next couple of months what recruitment they will need for next year. With Xl bust however, I think we all know there's plenty 737 guys hunting for jobs. Theres also the CTC guys who are all in hold pool's too.

As for the Turboprop jobs, not easy to get into with 250 hours. They still seem to favour higher hours due to the quicker command potential. Again though, I dont think theres much movement just now. I know of the odd 1 who's went to the likes of eastern but all in all, not much doing.

With regards to the OAA schemes i.e. Netjets etc....i've got no idea whats happening there. Im sure someone else might be able to fill in the blanks.

As a suggestion to other's, you may wish to think of subscribing to the likes of BALPA and perhaps the Independent Pilots Assosciation. The IPA have up to date info on most airlines. You'll find out all the industry news and recruitment plans(if any) there, including contact details etc.

If you check the likes of Flighglobal on a daily basis, you can get a feel for things there too. This morning brings abot 5 - 6 pages of recruitment - nearly all China, Vietnam, India. That says it all really about the situation in Europe!!

greggx101
19th Sep 2008, 12:00
What's going on with the airline job market at the moment then?

Its good - lots of airlines recruiting at the moment especially low hour fATPL and talk of new sponsored cadet schemes returning soon for 16 - 40 year olds with 3or more GCSEs grade C and above.

Celtic Pilot
19th Sep 2008, 12:52
while funny!!!!

:rolleyes:

G SXTY
19th Sep 2008, 15:14
You really want the view from inside the industry?

The UK job market is as bad as it's been since 9/11. With XL falling over, after Maxjet, EOS, Silverjet and Zoom, you have in excess of a couple of hundred experienced jet pilots out of work. You are now competing with them for jobs. I would be amazed if XL are the last British carrier to go bust, so I believe the situation will get worse before it gets better. The four biggest employers of pilots in the UK are B.A., Ryanair, Easyjet and Flybe. None of them are recruiting FOs in any significant numbers. The schools are still churning out CPLs and IRs, so the ratio of jobs to CVs is getting smaller and smaller.

Regarding the wider economy (which drives the airline industry), the truth is that nobody knows, but it is very difficult to be optimistic. People are fearful for their jobs, and are suffering near-record fuel prices and steep inflation in both energy and food bills. You don't need to be a genius to work out that many holiday plans will be put on hold, be they weekend breaks in Europe or two weeks in the sun. That does not bode well for air travel, especially when airlines themselves are being hit so hard by high fuel costs.

I know everyone desperately wants to hear good news, but a few people seem to be in outright denial. This is an awful time to be spending money on commercial flying training. If you are not already committed, bide your time, slow down your training or studying, and try and think in terms of finishing the IR in two or three years time.

Vone Rotate
19th Sep 2008, 15:53
D O Guerrero,

Not having a dig but just out of interest how do you know how many applications FR have for pilots looking for work??

Another point I'd like to make (I maybe wrong on this) I know the current situation is not good at all but even if things were Rosy I can't see the airlines recruiting much coming up to winter anyway. IE the quietest to of the year for them.

I say hang in there and March/ April time well see the doors (maybe not as many as before) open again

A semi retired captain I know told me these airline set up and fold with the slightest down turn quiet regularly. The main players will ride it out and stand strong after.....
Keep the faith:ok:

JB007
19th Sep 2008, 16:22
Celtic Pilot

In defense to our reactions to 'this question'.

One of the things i'm constantly amazed at is how little guys/gals actually know about what things are/whats going on. I met a PPL recently who was asking advice and is starting ATPL groundschool next year (or was!) who didn't know what a turbo-prop was!!!!

So, sorry, don't agree with you - With the loss of Zoom and the huge publicity the loss of XL has received in the past few weeks (XL even made it large onto 'Mock The Week' last night) Does someone training or have the ambitions to be a pilot really need to ask how the job market is???!!!!

To become an 'airline lad' i'm afraid your gonna just have to get with it a bit more, harsh I know but this is ruthless cut throat stuff, 1000's just like you fighting for the same jobs, all with the same qualifications - why should an airline employ you over him/her?!? And all this just to get to the interview stage to put your point across...

Redsnail has listed some good pointers on the last few pages of the 'Upturn' thread which are worth a look over...

G SXTY is correct, low houred recruitment is and will be for approx 4 to 5 years zero! PM me and i'll happily fill you in on my sector!

Vone Rotate
19th Sep 2008, 17:11
Wow, no low hour pilots recruited for 5 years...Not a single one!!:D

preduk
19th Sep 2008, 17:27
They aren't saying there won't be any, just that's the numbers are going to be very very slim. We don't know what the economy is going to be like in 4-5years time, but at present it's looking poorly until at least 2010 maybe longer.

Not a good time to go looking for a pilots jobs, It's that bad I've decided to extend my studies at University by a year or two to let the market calm down.

G SXTY
19th Sep 2008, 17:45
Wow, no low hour pilots recruited for 5 years...Not a single one!!

That's not what I said, that's not what JB007 meant, and you know it. What we are saying is for the next few years, jobs will be exceptionally thin on the ground for low hours pilots.

Guys, with the greatest respect, I was a wannabe for nearly 8 years, and I often used to cringe at some of the posts and responses on here. I can understand naive posts from schoolkids who have no idea what is going on in the industry, but when someone who is supposedly just starting an integrated course asks questions like:

What's going on with the airline job market at the moment then?

it frankly beggars belief. You don't need to be drinking buddies with Willie Walsh to know that the industry is in a very serious position. The question invites ridicule from 'airline lads' like myself (who, incidentally, remember very well what it's like to be a wannabe, have been there and bought the T shirt, and are generally trying to help and advise you as best we can).

Shooting the messengers and posting sarky comments will not help your case.

Vone Rotate
19th Sep 2008, 18:06
G SXTY,

I completely agree with you that recruitment will be a lot slower than it has been. I also feel that people starting training now should strongly consider keeping a full time job and going modular rather than putting all their egg's into one basket.

I just find a lot of people who post on this site tend to look on the dark side of life (not all but quite a few). The way people talk is like there is no industry any more! I flew from Gatwick this month....Didn't appear any busier or quieter than before. People will still retire and move on. There will always be some demand for new pilots even if it is slower than the previous years.

Yes it will take longer to get a job but I think comments like 'no low hour pilots will be recruited for 5 years' won't help either!

Aerospace101
19th Sep 2008, 18:11
Question: How long before CTC get desperate in placing their cadets that they approach ryanair when they restart recruiting in 2009?!


...pushing all the normal integrated & modular bods out of the ryanair cadet market

JB007
19th Sep 2008, 18:50
Yes it will take longer to get a job but I think comments like 'no low hour pilots will be recruited for 5 years' won't help either!

Keeping a positive outlook is healthy, but stark realities must also be faced up to, when you accept these, the shocks are easier to take...

On top of XL and Zoom, what's that, about 400 to 500 experienced, type rated pilots? My airline is approx 90 pilots overcrewed for next summer to throw onto the pile...

Good luck..

Celtic Pilot
19th Sep 2008, 18:55
JBoo7, yes i can understand some comments in the forum and if I came across a ppl holder goin for commercial's that didnt know what a turboprop was, i'd throw him in front of one.. I now understand your point when you've been faced with (lack of knowledge)people like that which in my opinion dont reali deserve to be in the industry.....


But some people on here (minority) just do it to piss people off and then start a whole row over nothing and the whole point of the thread is missed...

some very valid comments been put on this forum, and advice is much appreciated, im a wannabe at the mo, the industry is shit but this is why i went to university in the first place,, just in case.... So if anybody in the future asks why bother go to university we'll all say '''well remember the economy back in 2008 +'''''

Didnt learn much here but all good arguement which I will agree now looking back was a pretty stupid question, and was incoming with comments.... But my point was that some people do ask valid questions in the wannabe section and although it may seem simple to professional pilots it may not to us wannabes...

THANKS for your advice experienced people... always appreciated with me....

:ok:

plumponpies
19th Sep 2008, 21:12
To give you an idea as to the current situation. I found myself out on my arse last week.
2500hrs 73NG rated.
I have spent more on phone calls, paper, ink, internet downloads(excluding porn) in a week than i ever did when i started out and the only jobs out there at the moment seem to be in the sand-pit or the far east and mainly contracts.
There are a couple of turbo-prop opportunities still around in the UK as i found out with the odd phone call, but sadly won't pay the mortgage and feed my kids.
I am fortunate and can hold out for a couple of months but from where i'm sitting the UK is a non-starter for at least the next 12-18 months.
Speaking with some of my ex collegues, Captains and F/O's all finding the same problems. Too many people chasing too few jobs. (there are about 200 of us!)
I really do feel for the guy's that have just spent their 40-60k and got all excited with their new blue book, 'cause you ain't gonna get that investment return for a long time yet.
Good luck anyway.

jamestkirk
19th Sep 2008, 22:21
Good luck with Q of S. It looks great.

spider_man
19th Sep 2008, 23:32
I'm not aware of any UK airline actively recruiting at present. I know quite a few people with 3,000hrs+ on heavy boeings kicking around. I have a neighbour out of a job, and soon out of a home...

G SXTY
20th Sep 2008, 08:22
Well there you go guys - from the horse's mouth. There's nothing wrong with being optimistic - you have to be an optimist to get through commercial training and make it to a right hand seat, but you have to balance optimism with reality, and you absolutely must plan for the worst. Closing your eyes to the risks in this game (and there are many) can be very costly.

Every time we take off, I'm not expecting an engine to quit just after V1, but I'm planned for it just in case . . .

Some people tend to confuse negativity and realism.

smith
20th Sep 2008, 10:16
Whats best, integrated or modular?

smith
20th Sep 2008, 10:21
On more serious note, some of the people posting on here must have been living in a cave for the last 6 months.

Celtic

Can't agree with your comments, the poster must have had some inkling that things weren't right to even post that. Also the search function could have given him reams of information.

Airlines are generally looking for well rounded, commercially astute individuals with a good knowledge of current affairs. This individual clearly has none of these attributes.

greggx101
20th Sep 2008, 11:04
Im starting to feel sorry for the thread starter - looks like he/she is starting an integrated course this month.

Maybe he/she has been brainwashed by the school that everything will be ok by the time they finish.

Wee Weasley Welshman
20th Sep 2008, 12:13
The wannabe zombie army are legion.

Cloaked in an impenetrable armour of ignorance, armed with a might sword of debt they refuse to be stopped in their mission to keep the nations downtrodden ranks of flying school owners in Aston Martins.

I could understand this in the years before PPRuNe.

Now its something of a mystery.


WWW

Deano777
20th Sep 2008, 13:07
WWW

That is a great analogy, sarcastic? yes, ironic? yes but also very very true, I was there once so I can relate to it.

camel toe
21st Sep 2008, 19:53
Slightly off topic but I stumbled across a Facebook group "Qualifed Pilots looking for employment", it's a place where you can put your hours down and let the airlines come to you. :sad:

stefair
21st Sep 2008, 22:11
Sorry boys, I may be naive and little stupid too but all I hear is airline airline airline. Uhm, was not aware of the fact that they are the only once hiring flight crew... :eek:

clanger32
22nd Sep 2008, 08:10
Stefair,
Your last post touches on a sore point for me....no, the airlines aren't the only ones recruiting, but for most people they're looking to fly for a living. There's not that much living to be made in non airline jobs (with some exceptions, obviously).

I get fed up with people who claim "I'd fly a cardboard box for 20p a year just to be flying ..... anyone that wouldn't isn't a real pilot".
No. You wouldn't....at least not for long. Not when you discover the delights of mortgages, kids, ever increasing fuel and food bills.
THAT is why people want airline jobs, because it provides the dream of flying for a living AND the living.

stefair
22nd Sep 2008, 09:01
Clanger23,
My apologies. I totally disagree though, simply for the fact that there are still sooo many lunatics out there doing overpriced integrated courses and on top a SSTRs, who, of course, depend on that airline job. But that was their choice. No one forced them into their situation and consequently I do not feel sorry for them. Not the slightest. There is plenty of info on the Net and one can do his/her homework before embarking on this career path.

The "delights" of mortgages, kids, etc. is something everybody will have to deal with and this is also something down to you. If you need to live in a house at a young age, well, that's what you will have to do then and put up with a mortgage. If you decide to have kids and depencies this is something you will have to deal with.

Every graduate in the UK coming fresh out of college will have to earn his/her wings first and hence will not receive a gigantic salary straight away.

I totally agree with you on them cardboard flyers. That's just rediculous. When I fly I work and when I work I want to get paid. But this must be based on experience. I have finished my training about a couple months ago and are already flying for a living but no shiny airliner, just a SE trainer. I do not make a fortune but I do get by. However, as my experience progresses I expect more money to be earned with what I do. Nevertheless I would never ever pay for a TR.

When I started my flight training it was clear to me I will go modular and I will not pay for a TR for exactly the reasons stated above. Fortunately, this means I do not rely on that airline job. I can virtually take any flying job that allows me to make a living.

I have yet not looked much into the GA market in this country but being non-British myself I could be working in continental Europe as well and as far as I am concerned the GA market looks much better over there than the airlines. I doubt there are no opportunities.

Good luck to everyone!

Vone Rotate
27th Sep 2008, 16:25
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/344796-fourth-coming-bmi-reg-interview.html

Any comments from the doom and gloom brigade? Must be able to find someting negative surley????

Aerospace101
27th Sep 2008, 18:38
I dont think anyone is denying that there will be some jobs about. People still retire and airlines still need to recruit during the winter season. The point is, we are talking about a small handful, for just this winter. In comparison there are +100 cadets being pumped out EACH MONTH from likes of CTC/fte/oaa etc. = UNSUSTAINABLE!!

Sean Dillon
27th Sep 2008, 20:11
Any comments from the doom and gloom brigade? Must be able to find someting negative surley????

Why haven't you got an interview V1???

Vone Rotate
27th Sep 2008, 21:50
Quite easy, not qualified yet......

The reason for the post is if you read back I got told more or less to get real and except that no low hour pilots wold be recurited for at least 5 years. My point was exactily like aerospace said, their will always be jobs even if they do slow down a bit....Thought I'd have to wait a bit longer to prove the point I must admit!:ok:

JB007
28th Sep 2008, 08:56
FlyBe/MPL... (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/344886-flybe-start-mpl.html)

Honiley
28th Sep 2008, 09:31
The point been made Veeone, is what chance do YOU have, as a newly qualified fATPL 150 hours etc etc have of gaining one of those interviews...

It's great that there is a 'trickle' of recruitment going on that hopefully will satisfy those who have been instructing for a while and waiting a lot longer for the opportunity than YOU...

I have to agree with preivous posters, it was about 4 years after 9/11 that things began to move again...if this is worse than 9/11 then who knows...the winter is the usual time when airlines struggle so let's see what 2009 will bring...

G-SPOTs Lost
28th Sep 2008, 09:36
Clanger32

I think wadr that you missed the point the previous poster was trying to make, why just airlines,I fly a great aircraft, on a loco tre salary, at M.8 and then on the same sector mixing it with senecas downwind at 130knts. Its a great mix of flying that I would never experience in an airline enviroment (generalising badly now I know) whose crew on occasion wadr can/tend to be on rails a bit between radar enviroments.

Corporate/GA will provide a lifeline for newly qualifying pilots for the next 3 or 4 years but it will not be a cossetted turn up - fly - go home job, its much more involving than that. For those that just want to fly a 737/A320 then please walk on by, but those who want to serve a bit of an apprenticeship then get in line and get networking.



JB007

You heard any rumours about TCX maybe recruiting?????

JB007
28th Sep 2008, 10:54
G-SPOTS...sent you a PM!

Cheers
JB

BladeM3
28th Sep 2008, 19:20
Does anyone consider going to other parts of the world for work, especialy to build your hrs up if nothing more?

Lee

IrishJetdriver
28th Sep 2008, 19:53
I believe FR have over 800 experienced pilots asking for jobs.