Helicopter Crash In Bettystown Ireland

[irish330]

Just got word of helicopter crashed in Bettystown a few mins ago. Anyone hear anything?

[irish330]

Helicopter crashes in Co Meath

Thursday, 18 September 2008 17:19
A helicopter has crashed in Bettystown in Co Meath.
The aircraft crashed beside a community school, which was formerly the Neptune Hotel.
The aircraft came down inside the entrance of Neptune Terrace, which is a row of houses facing Bettystown Beach.


The helicopter caught fire after it crashed but the emergency services have since extinguished the fire.
It is not yet known how many people were on board or if there are any survivors.
There is wreckage on the main street of the town.


Got that from RTE news

[206Fan]

Just seen it on the news.. They say no one was seriousily injured..

[highonsnow]

A mate of mine tells me it's a 109 (a hunch, it has retractable gears).. more on this later

[Mars]

A helicopter has crashed in Bettystown, County Meath.

It is thought the pilot was the only person on board at the time of the crash at about 1700 BST.

An eyewitness who saw him walk away unscathed said he was "an incredibly lucky man". He had just left passengers off on the beach of the seaside town.

The helicopter made it to about 70ft in the air before crashing beside the Neptune Hotel, currently being used as a temporary secondary school.

It caught fire upon impact, but firefighters have since extinguished the blaze.

One person was taken to hospital in nearby Drogheda.

[Rotorhead412]

Hi all.

The heli was a sikorsky 76, that's confirmed, from the dublin area.

No one was killed, 3 on board, all should be ok!

The heli was N399BM.

[highonsnow]

google is telling me that registration is a twin turboprop. Check out FlightAware > Pilot Resources > Aircraft Registration > N399BM (http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N399BM)

[ketchup]

Friends have received txt from Pilot who is safe and well. TG

[highonsnow]

Thankfully nobody was injured. I heard debris is scattered all over town, what actually happened?

[500 Fan]

N399BM is a Kingair but possibly the helicopter involved is/was N399BH?


http://www.aso.com/aircraft/113080/ext-3.jpg

Thankfully no-one was seriously injured.

500 Fan.

[sarcasmo]

passed by earlier.. about 6pm. this was the scene

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr335/pdc_irl/18092008.jpg

amazed pilot walked away.. fair play

[Lunar]

One POB only.

Lunar

[tim1]

Witnessed crash. Pilot had landed on the beach to let some passengers off then proceded to take off but for some reason moved a few yards over to car park adjacent to the old hotel which is now used as a secondary school. He hovered about ten feet off the ground for a short time and proceeded to land on a short wall about six feet off the ground, flipped over and was torn apart from impact. Pilot managed to escape. Place was a mess with debris. Some locals hit by flying parts but nothing serious. Spoke to police, other witnesses and crash investigator. Heard different reports but it might look like pilot error in this case. Didn't look like engine failure to me. More like controlled flight. In any case it's a miracle noone was killed or injured.

[eurocopter beans]

Interesting, thankfully everyone survived.

[magbreak]

From the BEEB:

BBC NEWS | Northern Ireland | Helicopter crashes near school (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7623959.stm)

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292051-rotorheads-around-world-incl-views-cockpit-87.html#post3544044

[coatesy]

The heli was an S76 , after letting off passengers the aircraft had an engine failure/fire and made an emergency landing , burst into flames seconds after, no passengers onboard, pilot only minor cuts and bruises. was not pilot error, did very well to avoid street and people on it.!!!!

[cormacshaw]

RTE News link:

Web report: RTÉ News: Helicopter crashes in Co Meath (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0918/bettystown.html)

Video: RTÉ.ie Media Player: Nine News 18 September 2008 (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0918/9news_av.html?2424310,null,230)

The 9pm News report above has video footage of the accident site and interviews with one of the passengers who'd just been dropped off and witnesses on the ground, one of whom had a very lucky escape from shrapnel penetrating into his apartment across the road.

Very lucky that no one has suffered more than scratches and shock.
Expensive though.

[OEI and Still Flying]

In Ireland you need permission from the Dept of the Marine before you can land on a beach.
Yet to hear of permission being handed out.
It being such a big issue with the IAA (getting prior permission)
Surely the pilot didn’t land on the beach?

[maxvne]

Thankfully Pilot OK well done to him, apparently he was not intending to land where he did even though that is where he had permission to land but as already said possible engine failure/fire so a little busy and all at less than 200 feet.

Do non-AOC/private job helicopters crash more? Discuss.
I guess there are more private helicopters in Ireland than AOC aircraft, mind you ask Irish helis the same questions I think they have had their fair share of incidents in the last few years. maybe engage your brain next time.
Max

[OEI and Still Flying]

Sorry Maxvne

“Apparently he was not intending to land where he did even though that is where he had permission to land “
You might explain that one!


Its simple he had permission or he didn’t?

The eyewitness statement (when verified) for Tim1

“Witnessed crash. Pilot had landed on the beach to let some passengers off then proceeded to take”

I am referring to the first landing and dropping of passengers and if permission had been granted to land at the beach.

I am not referring to the subsequent takeoff/ repositioning.

All of that aside it must be said the guy was very luckily.
It could have been a lot worse for himself and bystanders and I suppose we should be thankful that there weren’t any serious injuries.

[darrenphughes]

In Ireland you need permission from the Dept of the Marine before you can land on a beach.
Yet to hear of permission being handed out.
It being such a big issue with the IAA (getting prior permission)
Surely the pilot didn’t land on the beach?

I am referring to the first landing and dropping of passengers and if permission had been granted to land at the beach.

I am not referring to the subsequent takeoff/ repositioning.

What has that got to do with this conversation? Unless the engines ingested sand or something on the beach that caused it to have the engine failure, then that question is irrelevant.

[Pink Panther]

I am glad to hear nonbody was badly hurt (very lucky indeed) but it looks to be a very small area to be landing in, with OEI.:confused:

[Hiduly Damper]

S76 will only 1 POB + Congested area - Class 1 performance??

If it had class 1 performance why the accident after a single engine failure??

If it didnt why the departure over a town??

[maxvne]

Sorry OEI I didnt explain that sentence at all, my grammer was terrible.
He had permission apparently, had a look at the spot and making an approach decided it was too confined then the incident happened fire/failure apparently so now decided he was committed to landing.
A women decided to stand in the car park looking up at him hence in the hover for a little while, and panicking a little at this stage he could feel the heat surging through the cabin and then lights out smoke filled cockpit very fast and couldnt get door open(typical S76 doors) broke out through the side window and the rest is a bonfire.

Hidley- S76B with Pilot only - no problem Class 1
choice of landing area not very good but from a friend of the pilots he says it all happened as he made the decision to abort the landing as the site was too confined, but he had gone through LDP so decided he was committed, my own opinion he possibly got a little confused as to OEI LDP and committial in the event of an emergency as is a common problem with pilots, given the workload it is very hard to judge, just possibly bad luck so pat the guy on the back he is after all a fellow heli pilot and has walked away and nobody else seriously injured.

[thewaffler]

RTE have a still picture of the heli (landing/taking off) apparently moments before the accident.Regardless of what went before, Bettystown beach is big and long.

Why depart over a built up area? Was it necessary? Could this incident have been avoided by a different departure route with speculated engine failure resulting in forced landing to the beach? Doesn't look from the wreckage there was a lot of speed involved at final impact(thankfully).

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Glad all ok.

[Hiduly Damper]

Max,
Just to get better idea of the situation.
Was this his first approach to the area or had he previously landed on the beach as said earlier?
If the later was he then repositioning to the carpark and if so was it a full circuit with helipad approach or a quick hop scotch?
Ive done both and been lucky enough not to have an incident on the approach but always regretted the later afterwards.
Gladly everybody is OK

On another note, will this be the first N reg incident in Ireland since the rule changes allowing the IAA full oversight.

[maxvne]

Hi Hiduly,
Yes I understand he had landed on the beach, he was repositioning to the landing and completed a wide circuit to have a look at the site, first time and all that at a new location, decided to make an approach didnt like it when he was getting closer but then I have been told all attention was on number one engine, I dont know why he didnt try fly away OEI and deal with the problem and select another suitable landing site as it must be surrounded by either the beach obvious choice or plenty of fields. I didnt talk with the pilot just sent him my best wishes.
Im not familar with the new rules for N reg that you refer too, Im interested to know and learn though.

[Pink Panther]

There's a nice picture of the heli on the RTE news web page, landing on the beach yesterday.MAXVNE, are you an ex North sea Puma pilot and now part of the management team for this heli? Just wondering. There are two investigations going on at the mo,both the AAIU and local police.

[Robino]

Written permission is required from the local county council and not the department of marine!!

[Bearcat]

On another note, will this be the first N reg incident in Ireland since the rule changes allowing the IAA full oversight.


says previous....I am very glad on this. It appears from the postings there was a massive internal explosion in the engine/gearbox?

[Senior Pilot]

From another thread that's just been shifted to Rotorheads (thanks Danny!) there is a link to the Independent (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/miracle-escape-in-helicopter-inferno-1478189.html): a couple of their photos:

http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00204/chopper_204332b.jpg





http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00204/chopper1_204336b.jpg

[FloaterNorthWest]

An extract from the independent:

"Businessman Seamus Belton got out of the chopper just moments before the accident happened.

"We were picking up another businessman, Denis Reddan, and we were going to a business meeting in Dublin," he said.

"The pilot didn't realise we were going to Dublin so we decided to have the meeting here instead. We got out on the beach and he decided he'd bring the helicopter up to the front car park. We were going in the front doors of those apartments; it hit that roof and it hit the lamps as well. It was miraculous how the pilot got out of it.

"We were in there and the blades crashed through the glass of the apartment. He landed sideways. How he got out is a miracle."

The helicopter picked up Mr Belton in Dundalk and he was due to go to a business meeting in Inchicore with the helicopter's owner, Paddy Byrne.

"The pilot realised there were flight restrictions around Dublin in the evening, and he had no flight plan, so we decided we'd get out of the helicopter," said Mr Belton.

Exploded

The businessman speculated that engine failure had led to the crash, while others claimed an oxygen tank on board had exploded. The force of the various blasts blew out a glass wall of the hotel and nearby windows. Parts of the helicopter, including the rotor blades, flew across the street and broke through apartment and shop windows.

The burnt-out shell of the chopper was still on scene last night as gardai preserved the scene. Jurgen Whyte of the air accident investigation unit was on the scene last night, but said that it was to early to determine the cause of the crash.

Local resident John Shepard was walking to the shop with his two children when he saw the pilot trying to land.

"He was trying to land but kept hitting the lamp posts in the car park. He clipped one of them and broke a propeller, and that was that. It tipped onto the ground on its side," he said.

More fuel for the speculators.

FNW

[Rotorhead412]

You say it's the local county council, that would be correct if they owned it, if not, they would simply need the permission of the land owner..

I know this heli was owned by Barrack Homes, but anyone know where she's based or who maintains her?

Glad no-one was hurt!

[OEI and Still Flying]

The Department of the Marine and Natural Resources. Section 81(1) of the Local Government (Ireland) Act of 1898 states that it is the duty of every county and district council according to their respective powers, to keep all public roads maintainable at the cost of their county or district in good condition and repair, and to take all steps necessary for that purpose.

Normally land above the line of ordinary high water mark is within the administrative area of the appropriate County Council; while the foreshore itself is within the administrative area of the Dept of the Marine.


So while the local council might be administrating local works etc. As a general rule in Ireland the foreshore belongs to the State and itscontrol is vested in the Department of Marine and Natural Resources , which has the power to grant Foreshore Licenses and Leases etc.

So while the county Council might administrator various aspects the land remains the property of the State

Therefore a State department must issue permission the local county council has no authority to issue permission to land.


But I’m sure higher powers than ourselves will decide that one.

As you can see from the photos the first landing was made to the foreshore.

I suspect the same rules apply in the UK as Irish Law is more or less a copy of UK law.

[Droopy]

Did the For Sale sign at the gates to the property appear before or after the crash?

[Jon-MD500]

cctv footage of the crash
Helicopter crash in Bettystoen County Meath Ireland - Sky News Video Player (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Helicopter-crash-in-Bettystoen-County-Meath-Ireland/Video/200809315102876?lpos=video_Article_Related_Content_Region_1&lid=VIDEO_15102876_Helicopter_crash_in_Bettystoen_County_Mea th_Ireland)

[Rotorhead412]

Check this vid out, a cctv camera caught the actual crash...

Massive amount of yaw...

Hard to determine the cause of the crash though!

ZkPt7HAfmUs

[OEI and Still Flying]

Looks like he clipped a pole and the fire was post impact
Lucky guy

[ircg1]

apparently Islands dont need a marine department Maritme affairs now part of dept of transport

[helimutt]

So, did he have an engine failure before landing or not? From the CCTV, he looks to be in a relatively stable hover and then sudden yaw(tail clips post?) aircraft spins, crashes, less than 10 seconds start to finish!! Bloody hell. He did well to walk away.

[206Fan]

Might aswel add my 2 cents..

Ive watched it a few times now and it looks to me the retreating blades have clipped something.. The aircraft banks to the left very quickly before yawing into a spin!

[Chamer]

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/2/4/2/7/60849_1221817724.jpg

Crashed and exploded at 1630 18 Sep 2008. It is just in between the house in the background and a school. The carpark that the Heli is half in had been full of kids just one hour earlier. and is right in the centre of the village. The quick thinking school caretaker pulled the pilot out to safety and he only got minor injuries, two other people were hurt in the incident. Lucky Escape or what

[Pink Panther]

Some of the lamp posts in the area where heli was landing also have cctv cameras, probably a lot more footage out there.The Sky footage I would think will be of big help to the AAIU. Also, by the look of the CCTV footage there are no shortage of eye witnesses to the accident.

[206Fan]

Deffo PP

It will be the talk of meath for the next week anyway.. The Residents will become ''Helicopter Experts'' in the pub tonight after a few guinness on what happened :E

[whatsarunway]

I think I will stay quiet on this one and see what happens.

:oh:

[FloaterNorthWest]

whatsarunaway,

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa2/whatsarunway/P4190012.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa2/whatsarunway/P4190012.jpg

Was it you flying? Aren't you connected with this aircraft?

If you were, can you pick my lottery numbers for tonight? :}

FNW

[highonsnow]

winning one lottery is enough for the pilot don't you think? :O

[whatsarunway]

Nah,
i was flying that machine up to about five months ago. spent four happy
years flying her. But for reasons unknown to me they decided to get a
different pilot. Im not going to rant, just happy nobody was hurt.

FNW thats me flying in the photo infront of the hangar wheels up for a photo
shoot,before it was re-registered to N399BH, and before anyone gives out, i was on my own and was in hover at 48
percent tq so engine failure would have had time to put wheels down and
land without going oei. what a cool machine.


RIP sn760311 N89WC/N399BH

[whatsarunway]

Lets not turn this into a mud slinging match. Let AAIU do their job and hopefully we can all learn a lesson from the outcome.

[highonsnow]

agreed! Must have been nice to fly though, lovely machine

[206Fan]

Awsome shot..

Dam thats a beautiful machine..

FNW.. Is she a C model like haugheys? I hear hes looking a pilot to fly his ship!

[bizpilot]

Maxvne,

The CCTV doesn't seem to support the explanation offered.

You know what they say "Pay peanuts..........."

Glad the guy was already.

Biz.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Davy07,

No its was a B model.

Haughey's two new pilots have only recently finished their type ratings so be surprised if they are leaving so soon with a big bond hanging over them. But it's a funny old world!

FNW

[ivakontrol]

Davy07.............Look even closer at the Sky Video and you see debris coming from the TR, would also explain the sudden yaw.

[jellycopter]

Having studied the photo of the burned out wreckage on post no.45 I firmly believe the owner of the house in the background will end up with a serious damp problem around the his window and in the single-storey extension if he doesn't get his guttering cleaned out!:p JJ

[OEI and Still Flying]

If it wasn’t for passengers I reckon a high percentage of accidents wouldn’t happen.
While I sympathise with the pilot involved and he must be going through a tough time in his head.

The following is in my opinion the sequence of events that might of happened.
And I’m sure most pilots could relate to it.

Got the call to collect Mr X in Dundalk and drop to Bettystown
When he asked where he would land he was told that he owned a hotel down there and plenty of helicopters landed at this site before.
Pilot makes his approach and decides that the site is to tight and drops the passenger on the beach.
Now he’s left with the problem how will I collect them?
After the passenger has departed he decides that he will try one more approach into the hotel.
The video tells the rest.

Before ye have a go at me and tell me to wait for the report
I don’t believe that the above problems that we all experience in the corporate environment will be addressed.

The problem being that sometimes we let passengers dictate our actions.
If a pilot turned around to his passenger (who for example is a developer) and told him how to build houses.
The pilot would be told politely to stick to flying.

The most important thing is not to let the passengers dictate the pace.
It has happened to me and I have fallen into the trap of being dictated to.

While I am sure the Air Accident will do a professional job within their remit.

The question still remains.
Why do pilots put themselves under so much pressure and have passengers determine the outcome ?

I know that the pilot has the final call but I believe sometimes passengers are just as much to blame.

[tim1]

The above scenario is possible. The passengers on board had been a property developer and the hotel owner. They were to hold their meeting in Dublin but the pilot had not been advised of this and had no flight plan. He dropped them on the beach but was to wait for them to finish the meeting. He didn't wish to remain on the beach and might have been advised to park it in the hotel car park. However, anyone in this position might have thought twice before trying to manoever between two buildings, little space and aerial wires and lamposts. The pilot should not have entered this area. Perhaps he was under pressure and/or inexperienced but his training and common sense should have told him otherwise. I appreciate none us know for sure what happened and that hindsight is great but at the end of the day he endangered many lives by doing what he did. If it is a case of engine trouble then that just questions his reasons for moving towards the village and not remain over a quiet unpopulated beach! BTW the first impact was his rudder hitting a lampost which in turn caused yaw, dip and crash.

[scottishterrier]

Floater,

What's a big bond ?

[jumparound]

Miracle escape in helicopter inferno - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/miracle-escape-in-helicopter-inferno-1478189.html?start=4)

Picture of landing site from above.

[helimutt]

Don't you just love that? An onboard oxygen bottle exploded. Trust the media. What was that bottle for, ops over 10k'?
From above, that landing site looks tighter than a tight thing, even in a robbie, never mind a 76.

Anyone know the pilot or his background?

[highonsnow]

I've been questioning his motives for going in there all day and still can't understand a logical reasoning for taking such a decision to land in there - it's just lunacy.

Helicopters are being treated like taxis, "ara yea, park her up in the car park there with the other cars, twill be grand"

I was at a corporate event near Kenmare there recently, two EC130s and a 206 were called in to move 40 people from a VERY large pier to a hotel in Killarney, absolutely everything movable in the nearest 20-30m was removed from the pier, the place was cordoned off and the helicopters were very professional in coordinating their efforts, dispite being from 2 different companies (the EC130s were together).. every effort was made to ensure that safety was the priority (I can see people firing back at me because this was a pier - I didn't make that decision, but if you saw the pier, it's a very big place, you could land 4 helis in there safely, it's like a pier/car park).

It looked like you could barely swing a robbie in the space he was landing in.. was there any foresight?? I'm not an experienced pilot, I'm still finishing off my qualifications but I can still have the common sense to see it's not safe there - jesus, I'd prefer to land in a field and tell them to get a taxi if they were so inclined.

I'm not trying to slate the Pilot, he probably did the best he could after he got into difficulty, but the question really sticks out as to why he would try and land such a large helicopter in there.. it's a bloody town - "what if anything went wrong".. I agree with the last post there by OEI and Still Flying, the pilot has the final say - he's in charge after all

[FloaterNorthWest]

Scottishterrier,

Bond is the training bond for their S76 type rating course. Haughey Air introduced a 2 year training bond and an increased notice period to stop the horses bolting. i.e give 2 years employment or pay back the remaining cost of the money spent on their training. The outstanding cost usually reduces by 1/24th for each month served. I have heard of bonds only reducing in halves and even some requiring total pay back if you leave before the term of the bond.

FNW

[Pink Panther]

There's an aerial photo in some of todays Irish national papers showing the landing site (link provided by jumparound), and what remains of the 76.Has anybody who has seen the photo in question any idea what approach path was flown to this site.:confused:

[bellew]

I live right across the road from the crash site.from here you can see a large impact mark on the roof above the glass wall.Then what seem like rotor scrapes all down along the front wall of the building.It looks as if he took off from the beach, didnt gain enough altiude and possibly struck the roof before loosing control.He certainly cliped the rotors off somthing much higher before trying to land it at its final resting place.Theres a piece of the rotor blades wedged into the roof of a building behind the flat where I live.its a good 50 meters away and the piece would have had to fly over a 3 story building to land there!!masive impact.:ouch: YouTube - Helicopter Crashes into Hotel in Ireland (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=apQ0E0pnSdA)

YouTube - katastrofa helikoptera w bettystown (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7M4f-rTT0)

[ivakontrol]

bellow

The video shows the machine in a hover before the crash so your explanation is unlikely.

The aerial photo would appear to indicate that the crash happened in one corner of the car park. Did he come above the gap between the hotel and lower houses only to find the open central part of the car park occupied by cars/people? :confused:

[Thousand Island]

Has it crossed anyones mind that the intended landing site was, how should I put it, tiny? Google Earth put's it at 13.75 meters width and the rotor diameter is 13.21 meters.

[highonsnow]

It looked like you could barely swing a robbie in the space he was landing in.. was there any foresight??

A couple of us stated/questioned earlier, it seems unbelievable he would choose such a spot.

[highonsnow]

According to S76 specifications, the rotor diameter is as follows

44 ft 0 in (13.41 m)

Ouch - tight (Obviously Google Earth isn't going to be gospel but it would be close enough regardless)

[highonsnow]

I must make an addition to that.. overall length (clearance needed) is 52 ft 6 in (16.0 m).. so he was really really stuck for space if the Google Earth calculations are accurate. Putting these precise measurements aside for a minute, it's far too tight to even contemplate even setting down in such a confined area, as the dramatic results of the events have proven (I haven't forgotten the possibility of engine failure and other contributing factors which we may not be aware of at this point)..

It still should never have happened, is that fair to say?

[thewaffler]

based on what we have seen and heard so far (video,photos,eye witness) it would'nt take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened. Thankfully for all involved (public especially) no fatalitys occurred this time. I hope all potential and current pilots can learn from this reckless avoidable incident(roof top landings included). you rarely get a second chance when it all goes wrong.


The negative publicity does nothing for the industrys future, just provides tomorrows fish & chip paper and a bigger stick for the anti-helicopter lobby.

Let's be a bit more professional in our approach before we are scanning the obituarys for names familiar to us all.

[SASless]

One of the things I find impressive about the video is the two intrepid folks who took cover momentarily then ran straight to the crashed helicopter despite the aircraft being on fire.

My hat is off to them!

God Bless the ordinary person who does extraordinary feats at great risk to themselves....for total strangers!

[darrenphughes]

One of the things I find impressive about the video is the two intrepid folks who took cover momentarily then ran straight to the crashed helicopter despite the aircraft being on fire.

My hat is off to them!

God Bless the ordinary person who does extraordinary feats at great risk to themselves....for total strangers!

Here here.

[212man]

Witnesses said that the twin-engined American-registered Sikorsky S76 -- which was built in 1985 and is being offered for sale on an aviation business site -- tried to land in the car park but ended up landing on its side and burst into flames.

That will be WAS for sale, I guess....:E

[griffothefog]

This kind of thing makes me so angry. I have had the honor of flying with some very talented and professional pilots in the republic over the years and this accident will bring nothing but scrutiny and criticism to an otherwise very safe and well run community..:D:D

I have no intention of speculating about the cause, but when all is said and done and the individuals background and experience have been made public and the AAIB report is in...... Well don't expect too many surprises :=

I hate ranting in public, but this effects all of us in the helicopter world, so I feel as a 30 year veteran in aviation I have earned the right to a wee bit of a wayward comment.... PRAT......

[C4]

I'm with you Griffo...:ugh:

[coatesy]

just like to let you all know that the pilot is prob one of the most experienced in ireland , just for all you speculators, which you will find out in the report.!! that was not the intended landing site were the cctv footage was.!! he was trying to deal with the engine fire were he was, couldnt move forward because there was a woman standing there looking at him.!! tail clipped something and the rest is the rest. you will notice that the wheels are not even down in the footage, he tried to make the beach but couldnt, cockpit filled with smoke very quickly ..!!

[Robino]

Hope all is well with the Pilot and full marks from walking away from what ever happened:D

[Farrell]

Coatesy - you beat me to it!

Will you listen to yourselves! Is there no end to the bull**** about accidents? I have tried over on Rumours & News but to no avail.

Having read the thread through from the start, I can make a reasonable guess that the majority of you are neither rotary nor fixed-wing pilots.

Google Earth again! Now giving us the measurements for the "landing site".
As I said in another post earlier, YOU HAVE NO IDEA where the intended landing site was, nor do you have an idea about the pilot's intentions or what was going on at the time.

We now have details that it was an engine fire. And now the comments are starting about that. No one knows why there was a fire, until a proper investigation is done and then we MIGHT find out.

And what is the point in comparing R44s to S-76s for Christ's sake. It's like comparing a 172 to a Jumbo - totally different ball-game.
Ah, now that I type this, I have just realised that the Robinson is featured in Flight Simulator, isn't it?

Enough said - we all know who we're dealing with.

[coatesy]

good man Farrell, exactly my point, the only one who knows what was going on was the person in the right seat..!!!! and might i add , I know to be an excellent pilot..!

[Pink Panther]

Well according to the AAIU spokesperson on the six one news last night, a prelim report will be issued within 30 days.They certainly have no shortage of evidence to this accident. Between the CVR, CCTV, eye witness accounts and pilot account, we will get a difintive answer I would think. Hard to know if it was landing or taking off from the CCTV footage on Sky, but it does look to be in a relatively steady hover before it all goes horribly wrong.

[helimutt]

Yes farrell, it will be interesting to see what the full story is.
So, no external signs of fire from the footage we have seen so far. Maybe there is some out there that can back up a fire theory. Maybe it was a fire indication.
Why would anyone land a 76 in such a small place in the first place.
He was initially over a beach. So between dropping off the pax then repositioning he had a fire indication, then he hovered for a while over a car park instead of staying out clear of built up areas. ???wtf????
A/C clips something which causes it to yaw and spin out of control with the obvious result.
Lets just wait and see what the truth is about it all.
We all have our own opinions. After all, this is a 'rumour' network', is it not?

PS, quite a few of us spend a lot of our working days in the 76, not playing flight sim!

[Pink Panther]

just like to let you all know that the pilot is prob one of the most experienced in ireland , just for all you speculators, which you will find out in the report.!! that was not the intended landing site were the cctv footage was.!! he was trying to deal with the engine fire were he was, couldnt move forward because there was a woman standing there looking at him.!! tail clipped something and the rest is the rest. you will notice that the wheels are not even down in the footage, he tried to make the beach but couldnt, cockpit filled with smoke very quickly ..!!

The landing gear might not look like it's down in the video footage, but it certainly looks like it is down in some of the still shoots,including the photo on the front page of yesterdays Irish Independent.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

cockpit filled with smoke very quickly ..!!

Is that a feature of the S76? With the small stuff i've flown, i've assumed to date that anything in the cockpit would be a slow evolving fire of electrical origin and that you'd never have to rapid loss of sight and breathing difficulties?

[Flingingwings]

In common with others I'll await the official report. Lots of factors I'd like to hear the final viewpoint on (most of which have been highlighted already).

HM, I don't recall the FSI sim yawing for a fire indication real or spurious, do you :confused:

And considering the previous comments, with a substantial engine firewall and masses of power even OEI in a B model (especially a light one), it sadly doesn't look too clever :(

FWF - No it's not a 76 feature. Must have been a major engine fire for the smoke to have not been visible from the outside, but so fierce that it breached the firewall, filled the MRGB compartment, crossed the overhead bay containing the mixing unit and then filled the cockpit before confirmation of a fire or a safe landing could be made :hmm: Possible electrical fire in the cockpit????? But then those in the know have stated it was an engine fire :rolleyes:

FW

[206Fan]

Sorry fellas but i couldn't help but laugh at this..

couldnt move forward because there was a woman standing there looking at him.!!

[Roofus]

Seriously glad no-one was hurt!

Have to say....fantastic to see the passer-bys running to help! :D

Did anyone notice the CCTV footage jumps from 16:41:13 to 16:41:36??

When I first watched it I was truly horrified the fire caught so quickly, on realising there was 24 seconds missing.....whilst still horrified, it explained the pilot's escape! & explained the severity of the fire seen on the tape!
Reminded me of the Bristows S-61 near Portland.......scarey stuff! :ooh:

Again.....I'll wait for the report. Glad no-one was hurt!

[Choppersquad]

davy o7 how is this funny .stand near an s76 rotors running and see how long you stay in the one place.if he moved to close to a lady and the down wash hit her, she may have got hurt.He was correct by not trying to move her away from the landing site by moving close to her.I will wait for the report before making further comment.

To many experts with to few hours on this network.

[highonsnow]

Wow.. arrogant AND intelligent.. you're on a winner!

It looks like the topic isn't open to conversation, lets get a moderator in here to close this thread down, might as well, the opinions of us people are no longer tolerated, however it seems there's a double standard here, we're not entitled to question the events of the accident yet you're able to make a "fully informed" attack on other members, arrogance is obviously flavour of the day.. for what it's worth, if thats the result of your many years of flying I'd rather quit now while I'm still ahead. What happened to the topic of conversation BEFORE the slating of other members started, or is that all you're capable of doing with YOUR 19 inch monitor? Why don't you instead, set a good example to us small fry instead of painting a bitter picture. We're only discussing the accident.

I believe we were discussing the theories and causes of the helicopter crash in Bettystown - just like you, we are all anticipating the AAIU report, we're not out to slate the pilot. I'm not trying to slate you either but it appears you want to have a go at people..

I don't see any mention of an R44 (R22 would be more appropriate) but regardless of that I think you're missing the point, nobody is comparing them, rather it was more a question about even attempting to land a robbie in such a spot, not to mention an S76.. but as some have already mentioned, there may have been governing factors that led to him to end up where he did.

I can see this conversation getting heated so lets just get back to the discussion of the sequence of events, possible causes and what other information has emerged about the accident, that's what we're here for, right?

I believe you'll find flight simmers hanging out in other forums, I wouldn't know, I guess I can only assume it seeing as I know so little about the rest of you, and visa versa.

[206Fan]

I wasn't laughing at the situation, just that comment!

Anyway, as you say il wait to hear what the report says also.

[heliski22]

Firstly, best wishes to the pilot and those others who received injuries of any kind, including having the life frightened out of them. He was very lucky to get out of it in one piece!

Disregarding all the speculation and comment, but .......

.........has anybody spoken to the man and actually heard him say there was a fire or fire indication, or even a problem of any kind in those moments before going down?

And no, I don't mean " heard it from a mate of his neighbour" stuff.

22

[highonsnow]

I hate to dwell on the past.. but Farrell, you clearly have anger issues:

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/343113-air-accident-checklist.html#post4395477

Perhaps take a moment and get some fresh air, you've got quite a lot of posting done on pprune (1,207 from last count), hang up the keyboard mate and stick to the aviation if that's what you're really into, all you seem to do is hop from thread to thread looking for arguments.

So far you have not mentioned one relevant piece of information about the actual event itself, all you have done is ranted. Go annoy another thread

[darrenphughes]

It must be that time of the month for a lot of ppruners or something! There's quite a few topics with cranky and snide comments at the moment!

Relax da kaks lads or take a chill pill or something!:ok:

[darrenphughes]

Quote:
I don't see any mention of an R44 (R22 would be more appropriate)
What the :mad: are you talking about?
Why would it be more appropriate? Who ARE you????

If you actually read the context of the statement instead of jumping in feet first screaming at people, you'd see that they were saying that there was barely room for a little R22, never mind a helo the size of a S76.

If you talk to people in the real world like this I can guarantee you now that nobody, and I mean nobody ever actually listen to you. They probably just stand around saying, "ooh here comes Farrell with his big crazy head"!!!

What causes are you talking about? Do you want to head off to Bettystown and tell the investigation team about that?
Third time: YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE CAUSE IS!

With regards to theories.....who gives a toss about them? They are irrelevant and a waste of bandwidth - especially if they are so far out there that I can watch them heading off for days.

The pilot doesn't need your theories, the investigators don't need them, the people paying for this site don't need them - Jesus, you don't even have a personal title - you get to spout off for free!

Nobody on here are claiming to have all the answers, but their informed theories and educated guesses(aided by researching certain things like google earth for example) can give some insight into what happened. Why do we all want to know what happened?? I'll answer for myself here; Because, as a pilot I feel that knowledge is power. It gives me the tools to apply the last guys mistakes to my equation when it comes to my own flying, hence reducing my own risk and making the skies a little safer.

I think a certain amount of speculation is healthy in this realm. Since I joined here and VR 2 years ago as a student pilot working to become a CFI and Professional Pilot I have used these sort of topics to enhance my knowlege by taking into account informed speculatory posts and discarding the posts that do not add up. I have listened to many Professional Pilots from both the Civilian world and the Military and learned from their stories and mistakes. I have also learned from people discrediting both my own & other peoples theories using sensible language and statements, and not just coming out swinging.

If you have a problem with speculation then thats your problem, as this industry is rife with it, be it a good thing or a bad thing. Even the top guys use speculation based on their prior knowledge. Take for example, Greg White who wrote Fatal Traps for Helicopter Pilots. While almost all his case studies show just the facts, there are quite a few where he or others speculate as to the events running up to the accidents in question. This is how we learn.

Some of the people on here may be Sim fliers and many are Professional Pilots. I suggest you show some respect to all of them, as you'll find that most of them have a great deal more experience and knowlege than you.

[highonsnow]

Great response though, you have very valid points - without the contributions of everyone and making an open minded analysis of the information available it's hard to learn from others accidents, actions, or otherwise.

[ketchup]

Well said Darren, healthy conversation is the only way forward. As whatsarunway points out, this is not a place for mud-slinging.
I think this trend should be closed and let the AAIU / NTSB do there jobs and publish a preliminary report, then it should be discussed further. We are gaining nothing here and risk the media miss quoting replies and harming the image of this very delicate industry further.
Ketchup

[noblades]

We are gaining nothing here and risk the media miss quoting replies and harming the image of this very delicate industry further.....

wise words ketchup.

Pilot will have enough knives out for him not to mention the demons in his own head. IF it is determined as a poor judgement call it will have a serious effect on the guy. Experience is relative, I think it naive to say he one of the most experienced in ireland although he is a nice chap.

NB

[swisstony]

It certainly looks like the gear is down, contrary to Coatesy's spin on the events, (Coatesy should hire a PR spin expert of you want to change the story ref your pilot) even when the CCTV fottage is enhanced, and from the still footage of the heli burning on its side it certainly looks like its down, if he only took off a few short moments before, why would he bother to pull the gear up

The pilot is a very nice individual, and as good a pilot as anyone, however if a mistake was made on the day, we are all prone to making bad judgements and most times only ourselves will ever know,
We do however need to support our friend and fellow pilot in times like this, The one who thinks they will never make a mistake or misjudgement will themselves be the next to do so :=

[Roofus]

Does anyone know who was in the Blue (appeared blue anyway) 407 circling overhead at the time of the crash?
Obviously a birds eye view would shed alot of light & prevent speculation!

Noblades :D Absolutely spot on to state experience is relative!

'Prob one of the most experienced pilots in Ireland' is a very bold claim!!

Because without wishing to mud-sling.......I'd suggest that was not the best place to try & land at anytime (What is it......50yds from an open beach!?) & certainly not IF there was a problem with the aircraft.

[eurocopter beans]

From the aerial shot of the scene i am struck by how close the crash site was to the beach, even if my head was on fire i would maneouvre the machine over a few yards and land on the beach... i am amazed nobody was seriously hurt. Was there an engine/electrical/xmsn fire? From the footage it apears quite clear cut...pilot trys to land in a (very?)confined area, clips his tail and crashes. Thank god the Pilot is ok and will hopefully return to fly in the future (a little more cautious of his landing sites). I await the AAIU interim report with interest.

[SASless]

Whats that old saying...."Even Monkey's fall out of trees every now and then!"

This will all be sorted at the conclusion of the many investigations that are on-going. After the reports are published then we can properly sit as a jury and make our verdicts known.

Until then....is it just not a bit presumptious of us to take a definitive view of things?

EB,

Unless you have had your "head" on fire before....there is no telling what you would do if it really happened.

I have sat in a cockpit full of fire (in flight) and I can assure you it alters your normal line of thinking and there is no training that will prepare you for the event. We might like to assume what we would do....but until you smell yourself burning it is only hypothetical thinking at best.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Look even closer at the Sky Video and you see debris coming from the TR, would also explain the sudden yaw.

You see a dot of something on a very low frame rate video with artifacts from either/both of the compression algorithms of the cctv recording and the sky flash video encoding. I think the low frame rate also makes it difficult to see how it evolves. The other question would be how the shutter speed would capture a (small?) piece of debris from the (high rpm) tail rotor.

even when the CCTV fottage is enhanced

You'll need that stuff from Blade Runner to get a definitive answer from the CCTV frottage.

The left roll could be explained by the not unheard of reversing/whoops TR ding as the lateral drift effect would no longer be present.

[eurocopter beans]

sasless ,
lighten up!

[FloaterNorthWest]

On the question of the landing gear, having looked at the footage it is unclear if the gear is down in the hover but it is clearly down half way through the first rotation. Was the pilot putting the gear down just before the incident and he drifted backwards?

FNW

[Robino]

I see the FAA are sending some of their own over to investigate the accident and work with the AAIU on trying to establish what went wrong.

[ketchup]

Robino,
Could you post the link for that?
Thanks
K

[Robino]

Sunday Business Post | Irish Business News (http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=news-qqqid=36118-qqqx=1.asp)

[magbreak]

FNW surely you meant does have a firewall.

[Shawn Coyle]

S-76 would have a firewall or it's equivalent between the engines - they are quite widely spaced, but would require a firewall for certification.

[Phil77]

In regards to the firewall issue I recalled a statement Nick Lappos made a while back and found it (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/19766-what-your-scariest-moment-helicopter-3.html#post956984):


Even in the real thing, you have some time if your boss bought you a good helicopter. In a Part 29 transport twin, the fire zone must hold full integrity for 15 minutes in a rageing fire at 2000 degrees F. There are not 15 minutes of fuel in the fire zone. If you get the fuel firewall valve closed, the fire will burn itself out in most cases, even if the extinguisher fails (and the extinguisher has dual independant systems, with dual bottles, dual squibs on the bottles, dual plumbing and even dual double throw switches in the cockpit.)


I googled and found references that the S-76 is indeed certified under FAR Part 29 Transport Rotorcraft.
...and who would doubt the guy who took part in developing the aircraft? :)

But I can see that your decision making is somewhat clouded if your head is on fire, you have the hands full flying and no co-pilot to pull the fire bottle(s)! :eek: Also I wouldn't want to try out if it does hold 15 minutes!

[coatesy]

Im Just saying that you dont know what happened, just because there is cctv footage , which only shows the latter end of this indecent, you are very quick to blame the pilot, i am looking forward to the report from the aaiu.!!

[Pink Panther]

Indecent!! who was indecent?:E

[RavenII]

Is the pilot on JAR or FAA licence? Or both?

Not that it matters, i'm just curious....

[Thousand Island]

FAA Registry
Name Inquiry Results

*Removed*

Address

*Removed*

Medical

Medical Class: First Medical Date: 12/2007

Certificates

1 of 1

DOI: 10/30/2006
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER
INSTRUMENT HELICOPTER

Must have been flying it on his JAA then.

[RVDT]

If you are licensed and current on the type in the country where an "N" registered aircraft happens to be you may fly it without a US license. (FAR Part 61.3 a (1)

Also as the operation would be Part 91 it may be conducted on a Private License.

FAR Part 61.113
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment;
and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for
compensation or hire.

[electric69]

But wasnt the helicopter an N reg? hmmmm....

[electric69]

Just a few other small observations.....

RVDT: how would he prove he was not doing commercial work on his FAA licence?

And also, why is he exempt from rule 3??
Subject to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph and subparagraph 6 (2) (a) of Rule 6 of these Rules, paragraph (1) (a) of this Rule shall not apply to a Performance Class 1 or Class 2 helicopter which is being flown without undue hazard to persons or property but, except with the permission of the appropriate authority and in accordance with any conditions specified therein, such a helicopter shall not be flown -
(a) over congested areas of cities, towns or settlements at less than
(i) such height as would enable it, in the event of the failure of a power unit, to make a safe forced landing;
(ii) a height of 300m (1,000 feet) above the ground or water,


All seems a bit unusual to me.

[RVDT]

How would he prove what? Was there anyone else in the aircraft at the time of the accident? The operation would still be Part 91.

IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY (RULES OF THE AIR) ORDER, 2004

3. Minimum heights

(5) Nothing in this Rule shall prohibit an aircraft from:

(a) (i) taking-off, landing or practising approaches to landing,
in accordance with normal aviation practice at an aerodrome or heliport within the State, or at an aerodrome or heliport in any other state, and without causing undue hazard to persons or property.

The interpretation of "undue hazard" or unnecessary risk would be the issue.

[Roofus]

3. Minimum heights

(5) Nothing in this Rule shall prohibit an aircraft from:

(a) (i) taking-off, landing or practising approaches to landing,
in accordance with normal aviation practice at an aerodrome or heliport within the State, or at an aerodrome or heliport in any other state, and without causing undue hazard to persons or property.

The interpretation of "undue hazard" or unnecessary risk would be the issue


Personally I think the whole paragragh may be an issue! Starting with 'Normal Aviation Practice'

FAA Registry
Name Inquiry Results

*Removed*

Address

*Removed*

Medical

Medical Class: First Medical Date: 12/2007

Certificates

1 of 1

DOI: 10/30/2006
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER
INSTRUMENT HELICOPTER

Must have been flying it on his JAA then.

'Prob one of the most experienced pilots in Ireland......' :oh:


.....But anyway....No word from the 407 Driver yet? He was orbiting the site throughout the initial beach landing & only left after the crash......

[ketchup]

S.I. 61 of 2006 The IAA Operations Order; Article
51(3)(b) Only a helicopter operated in Performance Class 1 shall be permitted to operate from
elevated heliports in congested areas.

S.I. 216 of 2005:
(d) in the case of a rotorcraft or balloon, not being used for public transport, any place where
the aircraft may take-off or land without undue hazard to persons or property and in respect of
which the owner or occupier of that place shall have given permission for such use, except that,
in the case of a rotorcraft, where that place is of an elevated construction, located on the roof of
a building or a structure, it shall also be licensed by the Authority under this Order for such use
by that rotorcraft.

hypothetically:
1) The aircraft is operated Privately. (same Pilot)
2) The site is big enough for the heli to land safely. (same site in Bettystown)
3) They have site owner permision.
4) No accident occures.

Now have a read of the Hughes 500 AAIU report (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/10599-0.pdf) but replace the aircraft with the SK76 and remove the car parking attendant injury (hence no need for an AAIU report) and that they had permission.

My question is what laws or rules or guidelines are being breached in this scenario because as I see it, there are no issues landing a SK76 on a roof (provided it's stong enough) in a congested area, so what problems would there be landing in the carpark? I find the SI, AOM, SI(A) very cryptic.

[SASless]

Electric69,

The Feds have to prove he "was".....the pilot does not have to prove he "was not".

Now in the UK...perhaps Ireland....the opposite might be true but not within US FAA proceedings.

However, a review of his time card, payroll sheet, job description, evaluations, letter of appointment, all better point out how the piloting was "not" his primary function at the firm. The flying part better be way..way..way...down the list of responsibilities in importance, pay, time, and compensation.

The FAA does have the power to demand records from the US firm owning and operating the aircraft. Add in the requirement for drug testing and the like if applicable to the operation and there might some thorny issues to be discussed.

Knowing the general attitude by EU Tax and Aviation authorities towards non-EU aircraft operations within the EU....this will be an interesting case that will no doubt draw plenty of lightning bolts from the heavens.

[Robino]

Eh......are we having reading problems??

S.I. 216 of 2005:
(d) in the case of a rotorcraft or balloon, not being used for public transport, any place where
the aircraft may take-off or land without undue hazard to persons or property and in respect of
which the owner or occupier of that place shall have given permission for such use, except that,
in the case of a rotorcraft, where that place is of an elevated construction, located on the roof of
a building or a structure, it shall also be licensed by the Authority under this Order for such use
by that rotorcraft.

hypothetically:
1) The aircraft is operated Privately. (same Pilot)
2) The site is big enough for the heli to land safely. (It wasnt....)
3) They have site owner permision.
4) No accident occures. ( it did )

[noblades]

However, a review of his time card, payroll sheet, job description, evaluations, letter of appointment, all better point out how the piloting was "not" his primary function at the firm. The flying part better be way..way..way...down the list of responsibilities in importance, pay, time, and compensation.

Whats that? :} I thought pilots fly for the love of flying.

JAA CPL with FAA PPL, workin commercially within a JAA state on FAA private machine? would this be considered a technicality?

better than FAA PPL, no JAR licence workin commercially? :=

maybe to leave pandora and her box alone? :E

[RVDT]

If the aircraft has been out of the US for more than 6 months or doesn't do at least 60% of it's flying in the US, it may not actually qualify as being a US aircraft.

The "grey" may become more "black and white".

[ketchup]

Robino:
I'm asking about a hypothetical situation::ugh:

S.I. 216 of 2005:
(d) in the case of a rotorcraft or balloon, not being used for public transport, any place where
the aircraft may take-off or land without undue hazard to persons or property and in respect of
which the owner or occupier of that place shall have given permission for such use, except that,
in the case of a rotorcraft, where that place is of an elevated construction, located on the roof of
a building or a structure, it shall also be licensed by the Authority under this Order for such use
by that rotorcraft.

hypothetically:
1) The aircraft is operated Privately. (same Pilot)
2) The site is big enough for the heli to land safely. (same site in Bettystown)
3) They have site owner permision.
4) No accident occures.

Now have a read of the Hughes 500 AAIU report but replace the aircraft with the SK76 and remove the car parking attendant injury (hence no need for an AAIU report) and that they had permission.

My question is what laws or rules or guidelines are being breached in this scenario because as I see it, there are no issues landing a SK76 on a roof (provided it's stong enough) in a congested area, so what problems would there be landing in the carpark? I find the SI, AOM, SI(A) very cryptic.

[magbreak]

As the B model has EAPS fitted sand off the beach shouldn't have been a problem.. Assuming of course it was switched on at the time.

I was taught gear down EAPS - ON, and GEAR UP EAPS OFF.. Seemed to work for me for several years without incident

[NRDK]

Is this the same company and have changes happened so soon?

.............Successful applicants should hold a UK/JAA ATPLH (IR) and ideally be S76 type rated. A Minimum of 3000 hours flying time with at lease 500 Twin PLC hours essential. Type rating training may be offered to suitable applicants. ...

Job Position: Permanent | Location: Global | Company: Haughey Air Limited | Published Date: 2008-09-26 16:05:24

No mention of Confined area landing experience/training.....:8

[206Fan]

Job Position: Permanent | Location: Global | Company: Haughey Air Limited | Published Date: 2008-09-26 16:05:24

Were did you come across this??

Floater, i must of heard correctly then about him looking a pilot??

[magbreak]

NRDK, Different company to the crashed aircraft.

The position advertised is in the North of Ireland.

Davy07 try an international flight website :ok:

[FloaterNorthWest]

Davy,

Looks like you were right.

Helicopter Captain - 200198839 - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/helicopter-captain-global-200198839.htm)

Took a while to find it as it isn't listed in the usual places.

The ink can't be dry on their type ratings. Not unexpected seeing as one of the pilots has been emailing his CV around.

They don't make pilots as robust as they used to or as thick skinned.

FNW

[206Fan]

Il be curious to see now will he fill the position quickly. Haven't seen the ship around here in 2 or 3 months, must be over in the england!

[Pilot DAR]

I am pleased to hear there were no injuries...

I'm wondering...

Early in the thread, there was mention of marine regulations which would restrict operation of the helicopter on the beach, which has an obvious open area, and presumably a suitable arrival/departure path which would enabel safe flight. For reasons of his own, the pilot chose not to use the beach (I'm presuming, based upon what I've read here).

If the government of Ireland has realized the need for regulation of aircraft operations on beaches, I would presume that the regulation of helicopter operations in car parks would already have been addressed. In Canada, we have this regulation:

602.13 (1) Except if otherwise permitted under this section, section 603.66 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART6/603.htm#603_66) or Part VII (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART7/menu.htm), no person shall conduct a take-off, approach or landing in an aircraft within a built-up area of a city or town, unless that take-off, approach or landing is conducted at an airport, heliport or a military aerodrome.
(amended 2007/06/30; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part6/Version/602061.htm))

to consider.

During my helicopter training, (and I'm certain that I would not be alone in this) instructors were constantly temping me to land into unsuitable or non-conforming landing areas, and "bullying" me into justifying why I would not. The aforementioned regulation was one of my reasons, and I got satisfied smiles when I quoted it.

The regulation of landing in built up areas in Ireland is much less restrictive than Canada (for comparison only) but the beaches are locked up tight?

Pilot DAR

[ketchup]

DAR,

My question is on the same line, when you go to an event in Ireland, of more then 1000 people, you must have an exemption to Rule 3. This was defined to me be John Steel: '1000 people, 1000 meters' regardless of AOC, Commercial or Private operations.
During the Galway races, Punchestown, Irish Open, a blanket exemption to Rule 3 is submitted to the IAA, but when I looked through the SI's and OAM's, I couldn't find it, other then recommend distance from buildings for landing site construction. Certainly, if this accident had been a machine on an AOC, The OAM is very clear on landing sites.
My take on it would be: If I was planning to land on Dollymount strand in Dublin, I would have to seek approval from the IAA OSD in writting for an exemption to Rule 3 and from Dublin City County Council as they are in charge for the beeches in Dublin.
I have meet many pilots who have received MOR's from the IAA for not having exemptions so it is enforced.

[Pilot DAR]

Ketchup, I had seen your comments....

Without putting too fine a point on it, the "public interest" would probably play a role in the decision making process as to allowing helicopter operations in non-heliport areas in built up areas. The quoted Canadian regulation does go on to state exemptions for police type operations.

It does not sound to me that the operation in this discussion met the terms of police operations.

So, some passengers, who can afford to beckon a helicopter, are unwilling to walk to a suitable landing area, or hire a car to take them there? Are those passengers being fair to the pilot, and assuring that he is not feeling pressured to conduct an operation which might not comply with the spirit of a regulation, or a risk of reduced safety?

I think that sometimes passengers fail to adequately imagine the possible consequenses of what they are requesting, and pilots are too eager to please to tell them.

Pilot DAR

[ketchup]

DAR,
This is certainly a strong issue that may or may not have had an input into this accident. The IAA and CAA (UK) have strict guide lines for the operation of Public Transport to safe guard the passengers, and pilot, hence if the OAM says the site is too small, you legally can not land there or if you do, you AOC can be revoked.
Pressure from passenger or commercial pressure is a hot topic. What defines it, what causes it, the characteristic of you pax, owners, respect received and given all have a vital roll into how situations are dealt with. But this is why we should always fall back to the rules and laws set out. They are gospel.

[Pilot DAR]

Yes,

An operator I work with recently endured complaints from passengers, in the case where the pilot refused to let them off in the toe in/hover on a mountain side, because the pilot thought that it was not safe. He very simply felt that there was an unacceptable risk that they would fall down the mountain. He let them off elsewhere. They complained. The company supported the pilot all the way, and reminded all of the pilots that they would be similarly supported, should they have to make that decision in the future.

Responsible management at work before regulators have to step in and do it for them! Aviation safety as it should be!

Pilot DAR

[ketchup]

Sounds like a fantastic company to work for to have such vital support from management to the pilot.
Unfortunately, if your a private operator, you just don't have this type of support, and more then likely, you have low hours, it's your first real job in the industry and you need the money. No matter what you have learnt in class or read in any book, at that one moment in time, you are determined to keep you new boss happy.
I do wonder what the authorities could do or will do to help this.

[JimL]

Some years ago when a working group was providing regulations for General Aviation (i.e. that which is not Air Transport nor AW) in the JAA, we produced this text (which is from ICAO Annex 2 - with a little twist):

JAR-OPS 0.485 Performance and compliance with the Rules of the Air

(a) The commander shall satisfy himself that aircraft performance is adequate to enable compliance with the rules of the air, and any restrictions applicable to the airspace in which the flight is being conducted; and shall ensure that an aircraft is:

(1) Except when necessary for take-off or landing at an approved landing site, or except where permitted by the appropriate Authority, not flown over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons, unless at such a height as will permit, in the event of an emergency arising, a landing to be made without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

This may (or may not) have found its way into EASA Ops but I'm not quite sure. It was provided exactly for the case that is being discussed here.

Jim

[RVDT]

Ahh the rules and regs!

"Will permit" - during the operation right up to the event of the emergency arising, it probably did. Nobody here has any idea yet of the nature of the emergency that arose.

"Undue" - Excessive - as compared to what? A petrol tanker driving into the same place?

"Hazard" - used as a Noun, Literary Noun or Verb?

I am not defending anything, just pointing out that the legal fraternity will have a field day here.

I guess Flying Lawyer can't comment any more on this type of thing due to his current position. :(

[tu154]

Ah yes, I see the knives are out from the holier than thou helicopter pilots of Ireland as usual. Perhaps we could split the thread between kicking the pilot versus useful comment? :rolleyes:

[zalt]

How about:

JAR-OPS 0.485 Performance and compliance with the Rules of the Air

(a) The commander shall satisfy himself (without fear that any one else will disagree with hindsight) that aircraft performance is adequate to enable compliance with the rules of the air and any restrictions applicable to the airspace in which the flight is being conducted; and shall ensure that an aircraft is:

(1) Except when necessary for take-off or landing at an approved landing site, or except where permitted by the appropriate Authority, not flown over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons if, in the event of an emergency arising, they will cause injury & / or damage to property on the ground.

[noblades]

No runway

"No Blades

"JAA CPL with FAA PPL working commercially within a JAA state on an FAA PPL on N reg aircraft would it not be considered a technicallity"

Are you for real?"

:E what do you think? (just fishing, aware it common claim of freelance brigade)

Was this aircraft managed by this pilot's company for long? If he was acting as a hired gun for management company, was any training given (CRM, etc), and if he was, surely he would have a legal comeback on his employer for lack of on the job training?

If builder put forklift driver at controls of crane without proper training, the builder would be held to account when something brown hits the fan?

[RVDT]

PVT Ops.

read Sasless's post.

"incidental" to the job.

Think of it as the house and forklift belong to builder. Builders bricklayer can drive the forklift but thats not his primary job just like most people can drive a car or truck.

Maybe this guy was the accountant or something, if NOT, it's a big problem.

The operation would still be Part 91 but you need an FAA CPL minimum.

The FAA these days will only give you a "based on" validation to PPL level. Otherwise you have to meet the requirements of a full CPL. Pretty common arrangement around the world.

[Robino]

I'm wondering...

Early in the thread, there was mention of marine regulations which would restrict operation of the helicopter on the beach, which has an obvious open area, and presumably a suitable arrival/departure path which would enabel safe flight. For reasons of his own, the pilot chose not to use the beach (I'm presuming, based upon what I've read here).

No Marine regs just permission to land from the local County Council which in this case is Meath Co Co as Bettystown falls under their control as a public area.

Both the beach and the car park are NOT excempt from rule 3.....the beach because its a public area and the car park due to its proximity to a built up area i.e. Bettystown Town centre.

Whatever about the accident the insurance company will have a field day with this one!!!!!

Again well done to the pilot for getting out alive:D

[FloaterNorthWest]

If the insurance was valid.........................

[ketchup]

So what have the IAA done or have they being doing to regulate this clearly gray area?
Why does it always take an accident for OSD to start jumping around the place patching regs that they knew for so long being breached?
Is this an EASA problem now?

[Robino]

Maybe time to start doing things by the book....... Anytime i get land owners permission to land i get it in writing because when things happen verbal permission seems to cause confusion.

And for rule 3, always allow yourself time from the IAA! If an accident does happen at least the suit from the insurance co cant do much once all the paperwork is in place.

[ketchup]

It's the getting permission from the IAA thats the problem. (14 days I think) What happens on Saturday morning when you get a call from the boss who wants to go to the races in Fairyhouse?

Sorry Boss, cant go cause the IAA haven't replied?

This removes the entire use of a helicopter to do last minute work. Now I know you always do have the option of going to a site more then 1km from the event, but then, if there more then 3 helis using it (3 in 3 out) you need H1 fire cover.... oh boy, this is a head ache....

Should OSD get more funding or a better directive or just re-write the regs to make them more understandable so we know clear as crystal what we can and can't do?

An EASA version of the FAR/AIM might be an idea? (could you imagine the size of it???)

[206Fan]

An EASA version of the FAR/AIM might be an idea? (could you imagine the size of it???)

Wouldn't fancy tabing that FAR out..

[Chickenhawk1]

They're using the word 'Hero' in parentheses now...
Crash 'hero' pilot Bill Curry comes under scrutiny - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4838024.ece)
The whole thing stinks if you ask me...

[Pilot DAR]

A very thought provoking article, in several meaningful ways!

Pilot DAR

[Senior Pilot]

From the Times Online:

One anonymous pilot on the Professional Pilots’ Rumour Network said in a post last week: “Helicopters are being treated like taxis. [People are saying] Park her up in the car park there with the other cars. ’Twill be grand.”

"In fact the press may use it"

It's at the bottom of every page of PPRuNe :hmm:

[heliski22]

I don't know where the idea that the IAA "can't touch" N-reg aircraft or their pilots who hold FAA licences comes from. There is ample legal provision for prosecution of any pilot in breach of legislation.

In summary, S.13 of the Air Navigation and Transport Act of 1946 makes it an offence to be in breach of any order or regulation made under any order made under the Act. This Section has not been repealed since then (so far as I can tell) and thus remains the legal basis upon which any prosecution can be brought for any one of a number of offences arising from breaches of the various Orders and Regulations.

The Irish Aviation Authority has become empowered by the Irish Aviation Authority Act, 1993 as the responsible authority for the enforcement of legislation.

So, if we take Rule 2 of the Irish Aviation Authority (Rules of the Air) Order as an example -

Rule 2. Negligent or Reckless Operation

An aircraft shall not be operated in a negligent or reckless manner so as to endanger life or property.

The Rule (or the Order itself) doesn't say anything about the nationality of the aircraft or the licence of the pilot.

The only reason prosecutions haven't been taken against offenders for breaches of this rule (and many others) would seem to be simply because the IAA haven't done it - not because they can't do it.

Why not, I wonder?

[ketchup]

bureaucrat |ˈbyoŏrəˌkrat|
noun
an official in a government department.
• an administrator concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs.

[212man]

n administrator concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs

Yes, there's an increasing and understandable need for unqualified pilots to turn helicopters into burning heaps in the middle of residential areas. Hopefully those bureaucrats will turn their attention to more pressing areas.

[206Fan]

So whats gona happen to the pilot now? Will he lose the PPL?

[helimutt]

Well it looks like he's starting to hang out there, drying in the wind. If he qualified in 2006, how many hours do we think he has, especially on twins?
Anyone know, just purely out of interest. ??

[Flingingwings]

Ah come on HM. Us MS FlightSim jockeys have already been told this unlucky pilot is one of the most experienced in Ireland. :hmm:

Perhaps Coatsey et al will enlighten you :uhoh:

[helimutt]

I have now been suitably enlightened, and will post no further on this thread, for fear of just being called plain mean! :E

PS, I have just realised, if he only had an US CPL then doesn't that allow you to fly anything within certain weight categories, rather than type?:eek:

[212man]

if he only had an US CPL

FAA Webs site says PPL with IR, issued 30/10/2006

[Pilot DAR]

It has been recently reported that there was the violation and fining of a pilot for landing an R44 within the built up area of a town, somewhere in Quebec. The fine was in the order of $3500 for the single event. Fines seem to usually be in the low hundreds, not the mid thousands for a single event. It would appear that Transport Canada takes this very seriously!

It would appear that the event at Bettystown validates their concern!

Pilot DAR

[Dragpin]

Regardless of licence or experience any pilot shoud not have taken an S76 into this congested area or any helicopter for that matter. Plain common sense should tell you that the area is completely unsuitable due to location, size, reject area and lamp posts!

It is just a complete lack of this that caused this needless accident, has been the cause of many in the past and will probably continue in the future unfortunatly.

[funfinn2000]

I think some of you pilots should show some professionalism and courtesy to a fellow pilot. I feel name calling and slagging is unacceptable and I wish you all fly safe and don't end up being a Thread yourselves.

The press are feeding off this thread and they will quote anything so please be decent.

:cool:

[Senior Pilot]

Another round of posts with nothing to say on topic: gone.......:rolleyes:

Those of you who think it smart to re-post their deleted offerings, think again. I have already reminded earlier in this thread about the media quoting from Rotorheads: unsubstantiated rubbish will be put where it belongs, in the bin ;)

And those who did re-post, go somewhere else if you don't want to accept the terms and conditions that you agreed to when joining PPRuNe :*

[TheMonk]

Senior pilot and all, was it ever determined if this man was qualified to fly the S76? Did the insurance company approve him to fly this ship?

Monk

[ragman20]

hi monk,
from the inside track, yes he did have more than the requirements to fly the aircraft and insurers have talked to him and the owner should recieve their insurance money relatively quick, unfortunately as senior pilot says a lot of rubbish by people who obviously dont know much about aviation, but then thats the rumour network.

[electric69]

exactly ragman...it is a rumour network. Its quite obvious some people need to lookup the definition of that word :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[212man]

Guys dont let the truth get in the way of a good rumour, thats what this site seems to be about

unfortunately as senior pilot says a lot of rubbish by people who obviously dont know much about aviation, but then thats the rumour network.

Clearly one rule for one and one rule for others.........:confused:

[ShyTorque]

I'm surprised the mods have allowed this thread to remain at all, considering the way it has been taken. The pilot's name is in the public domain, as is his photograph. Some seem to be using the forum to be judge and jury. There is now an investigation in progress so the facts will be brought out. Why not cease this unwise speculation and wait until it is completed?

[FH1100 Pilot]

Wait for the official report?? People, please. It's not like this is Pam Ann/KLM collision at Tenerife or one of the two U.S. space shuttle explosions. A guy stuck a rotor into an obstacle and the ship ended up on its side. As SASless would agree, we're not exactly plowing new ground here in terms of the way this one went down, pun intended.

There is no doubt that communication between the pilot and his passengers was questionable. They were supposed to go on to Dublin, but the pilot reportedly didn't know that...they had permission to land in the parking lot, but he landed on the beach instead...

Okay, I think we can all - or at least, any of us who've flown Corporate - figure out what happened:

Pilot had probably never been to this Bettystown site before. Owner probably told him in advance, "Plenty o' room! Oh, you could land three '76's in our parking lot!" Pilot gets there and while circling overhead says, "Uhhh, I'm just gonna land on that nice, big beach there instead, mate." And does just that. Owner gets out, gets sand all over his expensive shoes, then leans in and says to the pilot (words to the effect of), "Put the g*$^*#m helicopter in the parking lot by the time I get back!!!" Pilot, not wanting to lose his cushy S-76 job, takes a deep breath and figures, "Well, I'll give it a go. I'm good, I can do this..."

The rest is history.

A lot of us have been there. I know I have.

Now. Whether or not the pilot was properly rated/certificated/licensed to fly an S-76 as a commercial pilot will be easy enough to sort out. No rumor-mongering needed, not even on a Profession Pilot Rumor Network website. He was or he wasn't. If he wasn't, it's not the end of the world. He'll just have to deal with the consequences. And let's not even entertain the fantasy that he was really a "sales manager" (wink-wink) or some such for the company and was given an S-76 with with to visit clients. He was the driver...the paid driver, let's be honest.

The very sad part is that this pilot's career in the U.K. is probably done. Anywhere he goes, hat and CV in hand, a prospective employer is going to go, "You flew a '76 for Seamus Belton, eh? Hmm, Seamus Belton...Seamus Belton...that name rings a... Oh yeah! I saw that on YouTube! Thanks for stopping by though."

[Pink Panther]

Here's a little something from today's Sunday Times.

American aircraft face crackdown - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4882685.ece).

[Pilot DAR]

Good post FH1100 pilot...

[ShyTorque]

FH1100,

I think you'll find the accident didn't occur in the UK.

[ketchup]

From The Sunday Times (UK)
October 5, 2008

'IAA, the aviation safety regulator, has asked Revenue and the Department of Justice to examine the legality of using American-registered aircraft for commercial gain in Ireland.'

The Questions:
Why is the IAA, Dept. of Justice only taking action now? Where is the pressure coming from does any one know?

[FH1100 Pilot]

ShyTorque:I think you'll find the accident didn't occur in the UK.Shy, if you examine my post *very* closely, I think you'll find that I never said that the accident occurred in the U.K.

[Pink Panther]

As I understand it, the IAA and AAIU have being waiting for the "smoking hole in the groung including fatalities" so to speak for a while in relation to N reg heli's operating in Ireland.
This accident could have being so much worse than it was, (walking wounded only in a built area), but it has rattled people.

I think the article in the Sunday Times is the IAA marking cards and letting people know things are now going to change. Let's wait and see.

[ShyTorque]

Shy, if you examine my post *very* closely, I think you'll find that I never said that the accident occurred in the U.K.

No, of course you know that Ireland isn't part of UK. But it did seem strange that you wrote about the accident ruining his career elsewhere, rather than where it actually occurred. :p

[funfinn2000]

I think that the whole witch hunt by the IAA on N-reg an faa pilots is a waste of time. Most of our IAA inspectors are current FAA pilots they also fly in N-regs from time to time when it suits. All helicopters are supposed to be maintained to manufacturers manuals no matter what reg it it on.

I wonder if the story would be so big if it was a G reg or EI reg.?
This machine was maintained by a extremely reputable firm in UK, so it was looked after.

[electric69]

I dont think anyone is implying that there was a problem with the condition or maintance of the helicopter.the crash appears to have been down to the pilot and nothing to do with the condition of the helicopter.
I think the question people are posing is why are theses helicopters not Irish registered? If they are permanently based in Ireland and are flown by Irish pilots with Irish passengers in Irish airspace, why should they not have to abide by IAA rules and regs and be EI-reg? Everyone knows that 99% of the helicopters are only N-reg so that the owners can avoid the IAA. If they have nothing to hide why dont these Irish helicopter sign up to the Irish authority?:confused:

I wonder if i bought a car in America and shipped it to Ireland would the Irish government allow me to drive it without having it registered in Ireland and abide by Irish rules even if i drove the car everyday in Ireland, i lived in Ireland and i was an Irish citizen?
Its time for the IAA to wakeup and implement new changes.

[swisstony]

Its good to see the pilot was uninjured and has got himself back up again and started flying on his N reg 407, more power to him, I guess his FAA licence is still working, good to clear the head and shake off the gremlens :ok:

[noblades]

FunFinn

"I think that the whole witch hunt by the IAA on N-reg an faa pilots is a waste of time. Most of our IAA inspectors are current FAA pilots they also fly in N-regs from time to time when it suits."

That is some claim. Is this true or a bit of speculation? witch hunt may be a bit strong though?

Funny how an authority will get criticised for action as well as inaction.

I find it hard to believe that inspectors are in breach of the very standards they are trying to uphold. :=

maybe this is an emotive rather than a factual comment possibly bordering on libel? :oh:

[funfinn2000]

E 69 I am sorry but you just can't compare a car to an Aircraft.

As for the Gentlemen in the IAA some of them do have Both FAA and JAR licenses and you can search the airmen date base on FAA website,

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/default.aspx

[Bravo73]

E 69 I am sorry but you just can't compare a car to an Aircraft.

Why not?????????

[Trexheli]

This has been a massive problem in Ireland for the last number of years and have heard all the IAAs plans to address it....blah blah blah

How can a US registered Aircraft operate in Ireland in whatever manner it wants and the regulator has no say!!

I am sure a legal challenge would remove those who care to sit on the fence in Ireland ;)

[electric69]

E 69 I am sorry but you just can't compare a car to an Aircraft.

Funfinn, i think you will find that you absolutely can. Just because the IAA is still in the stoneage and changes havent happened in a long long time doesnt mean that we should give up all hope. Im sure you will find that the government has update its policy and rules in relation to the import and use of america cars in Ireland in recent times...why doesnt the IAA do the same with aircraft????

[Roofus]

I sincerely hope that the Irish Times article proves accurate.

I'm with Electric69 on this! The analogy with an American Car is spot on! You can't bring an American car into Ireland, leave it American registered & drive it on an American Licence with no comeback from the Authorities here in Ireland.
Take it a step further & you're now operating this vehicle as a Taxi in Ireland on American Plates......how would that be fair to all the Irish Taxi operators??

& yet an American Helicopter, an FAA PPL & away you go......:ugh:

It's certainly time that the IAA took hold of this problem by the short n curlies! Which brings me back to the Irish Times article....

[Trexheli]

He wasnt the only shark in the pond......still another dozen or so to be reeled in!!!

[OffshoreHeli]

Does it work the other way round can you take an Irish registered helicopter to USA to operate?

[SASless]

Small problem with your logic....this was not a taxi for hire....it was a private limo. Weren't it?:ouch:

[RavenII]

SASless is right, if it's not for hire you don't need an operators licence. You wouldn't need a Taxi licence for your own limo, right? (Well Micheal O'Leary does, but that's a different story)

If you want to stop people flying there private choppers on an N-Reg with FAA licences in Ireland, do you also want to stop the US Airlines from flying their Jet's into Ireland if the Pilot doesn't hold a JAA licence and the bird is on an N-Reg??

Might sound stupid, but at the end it's the same story, a FAA pilot flying an N-Reg in a foreign country.....

However, i do think the IAA should have the right to question the pilots and owners/operators of these aircraft whenever they want. I hope the new rules will help to make flying in Ireland a little bit saver.

[Bravo73]

If you want to stop people flying there private choppers on an N-Reg with FAA licences in Ireland, do you also want to stop the US Airlines from flying their Jet's into Ireland if the Pilot doesn't hold a JAA licence and the bird is on an N-Reg??

Might sound stupid, but at the end it's the same story, a FAA pilot flying an N-Reg in a foreign country.....


RavenII,

I'm afraid that you're wrong. It's not all 'the same story'.

A foreign registered aircraft visiting a certain country is very different to a foreign registered aircraft being permanently based in that same country.

[RavenII]

Bravo,

well, good point. I kind of agree.

In a small country like Ireland it might be very easy to prove where an Aircraft is based, especially if it's a Heli.

But where do you draw the line in bigger countries and, let's say, with a privat BBJ or a Lear? Not that easy.........

But like i said, i kind of agree with what you say.

[wesp]

In a number of European countries it's not allowed to fly on a FAA or ICAO license for that matter in a European registered aircraft. There's also the rule in some countries that a resident of that country cannot fly on a foreign license. In France a French pilot is not allowed to fly on a FAA license in an N-Reg as well.

In the US you're not allowed to fly N-Reg unless you have a FAA Pilots Certificate (full or validation)

So it would be quite easy to make it impossible for Irish citizens to fly on a foreign license without at least a validation.

[ketchup]

Funfinn2000:
I wonder if the story would be so big if it was a G reg or EI reg.?
This machine was maintained by a extremely reputable firm in UK, so it was looked after.

helicopter reported down in Ireland (EI-SBM)
Views: 14,163 Replies: 99

Helicopter Crash In Bettystown Ireland (N933BH)
Views: 28,631 Replies: 197

Granted, two completely different accidents in Ireland, but just interesting to see twice the interest.

[Bronx]

Roofus Take it a step further & you're now operating this vehicle as a Taxi in Ireland on American Plates......how would that be fair to all the Irish Taxi operators??
& yet an American Helicopter, an FAA PPL & away you go...... Who is it unfair to if a FAA PPL flies an N reg helo in Ireland? :confused:

As for protecting work, if a country wants to protect work for a particular group it can make a law to just that.
Should aviation regulations be used to protect work?

It's certainly time that the IAA took hold of this problem by the short n curlies! What problem? :confused:

B.

[wesp]

From examining the AAIU website (Helicopters only):

27 x EI-Reg Acc/Inc (15 Acc)
13 x G-Reg Acc/Inc (7 Acc)
4 x N-Reg (3 Acc) (Not including Bettystown)

Summary out of the full list of reports, assuming this is complete.

None of the N-Reg accident/incidents was maintenance related.

[Pink Panther]

Without wanting to comment on this particular incident.1) Can charter flights be carried out using N registered aircraft within a European Country/Sate.:confused:

[Pilot DAR]

helicopter reported down in Ireland (EI-SBM)
Views: 14,163 Replies: 99

Helicopter Crash In Bettystown Ireland (N933BH)
Views: 28,631 Replies: 197

Granted, two completely different accidents in Ireland, but just interesting to see twice the interest.

Not being familar with the first event, my comment should only be considered partially informed. That said, the Bettystown event seems to have several otherwise unrelated elements, each of which merits its own "interest group" for commenting. Probably two or three distinct elements of this flight would merit their own thread. The fact these these otherwise unrelated all were associated with a spectacular crash, puts everything in one place for comment. No surprise to me that the comments have occurred.

I've learned that crashes usually occurr because of the combined effect of more than one out of place/wrong element. It would not seem like maintenance was a factor in this crash, but I certainly can see more than one other element combining to create an unsafe situation. Thank goodness it was not a lot worse!

Speaking personally, I've been holding back quite a few opinions on this one, for the very reasons confirmed, of the use of posts by the media.

The owner/passenger of the helicopter, and it's pilot, are not high on my "want to get to know" list.

Pilot DAR

[ragman20]

Pink panther, the answer is no that charter flights cannot take place without the correct AOC unfortunately it seems to happen quite a lot here in the UK and I also understand it happens in Ireland and the rest of Europe particularily with jets, I also believe that a few G reg helis that have crashed in the past are in this category and also the recent EI helicopter is also under investigation. So N reg dont have the monoply

[lipgo]

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/11003-0.pdf

[Chopper Doc Junior]

What a fantastic name for the investigator. Paddy Judge. You couldn't make stuff like that up.

[jumparound]

The Investigation has not identified any technical problem with the helicopter to date.

I stress the following this is not the finished report.

PRELIMINARY ACCIDENT REPORT

[helimutt]

Yes, but the initial report says nothing about an engine fire or other which i'm sure would be mentioned if it had been a factor.
I thought from watching the video, that the tail rotor had struck the pole initially, not the main rotor. Anyway, I guess i'll look forward to the main report.

[Non-PC Plod]

Difficult to tell from such a small video picture, but the aircraft appears to roll and yaw to the left. If it was a tail rotor strike, it should be going the other way. So it looks to be consistent with what the initial report says.

[nigelh]

Ragman . Your post seems quite confused / confusing !! Charter requires an aoc in any country but leasing ( which i think you will be referring to on jets etc ) does not as it is deemed to be a private flight where the hirer is the operator and he hires his own pilot . This is the way a few aoc,s are going now that the caa are strangling them to death with one hand whilst the other is picking their pocket .:ugh:

[ragman20]

NigelH sorry if you are confused, but the question asked by pink panther was can you carry out a charter without an AOC, my answer was and is no you cant, the section about jets seems to be some companies that are trying to use leasing as a loop hole or whatever you may feel not to apply for an AOC. Im sure as you state if you ask the CAA the same question I think you know what the answer would be.:ugh:

[Mungo5]

CCTV footage from Bettystown.

YouTube - Helicopter crash meath ireland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkPt7HAfmUs)

From what I can see this hasn't been posted yet.

[Phil77]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/343696-helicopter-crash-bettystown-ireland-2.html#post4406793 Post 38 & 39

:rolleyes:

[Pink Panther]

Helicopter pilot fined €5000 for crash

Thursday, 14 January 2010 20:58
The pilot of a helicopter that crashed and exploded into flames in County Meath has been fined €5,000 and given a three month suspended sentence.
William Curry tried to land the aircraft in the car park of the Neptune Hotel in Bettystown in September 2008.
The 35-year-old, from Kilcullen in Co Kildare, pleaded guilty to three charges brought by the Irish Aviation Authority.
The judge said it was a miracle that Mr Curry survived and that nobody else was killed or injured.




RTÉ News: Helicopter pilot fined €5000 for crash (http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0114/curryw.html)

[BoeingMEL]

Once again we have an incident/accident/tragedy completely shrouded by garbage, rumour and wonderful testimonials to a great/wonderful/hero pilot.. engine-failure... smoke.. tried to miss hospital/school/orphanage etc...and then the truth comes out. It really is time that Pprune became a password-enabled 'site for aviation professionals.:ugh: IMHO of course. Cheers bm

[Flyting]

what did he plead guilty to...?

[ragman20]

apparently there was some plea barganning going on and agreed he would admit carless, unfortunately the IAA man decided he wasnt going to stick to this and changed his mind and went to nail him on 6 different charges, I wasnt there but some guys who were said the IAA man called the press about the case and stood up and even said that after your LDP he should have gone around and stated that is the proceedure, he showed the judge the pictures of the wreckage and that was it all over.
No fine was handed out Press got it wrong as it was costs against the pilot to the IAA which they said is 5000 and one 3 month suspended sentence which is not a criminal conviction. Thats all I know but it seems bad form if the IAA are prepared to stand up and lie and also call the newspapers in. He has been in court twice and no press arrived as the IAA were not ready to proceed.

Mac

[chopjock]

Well I hope that teaches everyone a lesson then, do not crash in Ireland, because if you do and survive, the "Institute Against Aviation" will take you to court.:eek:

[griffothefog]

Regardless of the IAA's miserable efforts, I refer you to post 77... PRAT :{

[elro]

still waiting....

[elro]

Report just released here (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=12845&lang=ENG&loc=1652)

[Non-PC Plod]

Did this guy wear a stetson & spurs and operate out of a dude ranch too?

[John R81]

The report makes scary reading - about as scary as the video!

[skillsndrills]

We all feel commercial pressure now and again, and we all make mistakes, we are after all human. For this, the pilot has my sympathy.........but.......... but if you blatently fly illegally on a foreign PPL whilst taking payment and also stealing jobs from those who respect and trained under the rules then I have no sympathy. (and to land illegally on a beach without permission....... but the car park looks ok.....).

This sort of behaviour was rife when I was working in Ireland and to be perfectly honest, it's about time these cowboys got their comeuppance.

I keep my head below the parapettt on PPrune as a lurker and PM'er but this is simply too much to bear. I have seen guys train in the US (no problem there) and they come over to europe and break the terms of their license..... this is a classic example of "sure it'll be grand sure" as long as nothing goes wrong (and we don't get caught, i'll just say I was carrying that brown envelope for fun, and I also fly my friends for free whilst wearing a white shirt with 4 gold bars. obviously!). I'll take that envelope as long as it's nothing to do with that flight I just did. The inconsistencies with the story: I was flying for money... on second thoughts no I wasn't. not...on third thoughts....I changed my mind. On fourth thougts I was flying, no he was flying...we were both P1 even when he didn't pay me but the client did.... I mean did'nt........

Did I miss something???

PS. I don't want to get into a typing war. You can contact me by telegram or fax.

I hope every professsional pilot out there feels the same way as I do.

I hope you guys/girls go easy on me but I honestly believe people like that deserve all they get. And then not enough.........

[Cows getting bigger]

Yes, two main issues. Firstly poor decision making/airmanship/unlucky - we've all been there before, call it what you like.

Secondly, the non-public transport, public transport work. I don't think the problem is unique to Ireland nor the rotary world. I'm sure we've all been tempted by offers from 'friends' or 'friends of friends'; how many GA pilots had smiles on their faces after this year's Icelandic volcanic ash farrago? The rules are clear and in many respects there to protect pilots from liability issues. Break them and be prepared to man-up to face the consequences.

[Non-PC Plod]

You cannot be serious - running a flight training academy! Tell me you are joking............?

[Epiphany]

It was all a frame-up I tell you. The man is innocent. The camera angle made the LS look smaller than it was and that engine failure on short finals meant he was really stuck for choices whilst steering the stricken helicopter away from the school.

Some people can fall in sh*t and still come up smelling of roses. He'll probably end up as Head of the IAA.

[Too Old To Die Young]

When reading the threads on here, I normally get too bored with the 50% of rubbish that is spouted and give up. In this case how ever, because I was flying in Ireland at the time of the crash, I forced myself to read every post. Now that it is clear exactly what happened, including the ludicrous attempt by the supplier and pilot to cover up the full truth, I am appalled by some of the earlier posts. Any aviation authority has a difficult role in policing the cowboy element, especially when they are being misled. The fact that the pilot pleaded guilty must surely tell us something about his story. With all the facts that the IAA and FAA have, I am astonished that this cowboy still has a licence and is now running a flight school to show others how not to do it.

I hope some of the "lets wait for the report before we hang him" brigade, are suitably humbled and ashamed of the unquestioning back up of this man, just because he has a few hours. Quantity of hours doesn't necessarily make you experienced, or professional, maybe he's just lucky. Has he got 5000 hrs experience or 1 hours experience 5000 times.

Too many times, whilst flying in Ireland, I saw this total distain for the rules. It was more a question of how to get round the rules and operate the way I want to, rather than how can this be done within the rules.

Please IAA, sort out the system within you jurisdiction.

[sox6]

Who was the 'supplier'?

[Pink Panther]

As I undestand it an early contributer to this thread.:E

[hands_on123]

I am astonished that this cowboy still has a licence and is now running a flight school to show others how not to do it.


Maybe he's the best person to run a school. He made a mistake, took the flack, and maybe he's a lot wiser and more careful now.

It's all very easy to armchair judge. But how many of us here have never done something outside the rules? and how many of us here have never landed somewhere and though "mm.. that was a little close"? Not many I bet.

[thewaffler]

If you were surprised by this report where were you for the last 10 years?

The dogs in the street knew what was going on over the last 10-15 years in Ireland. Probably endemic of the general acceptance of the 'fair play to you if you can get away with it', 'one up on the system mentality'(no excuse) . It was only a matter of time, amazing(thankfully) no third party was seriously injured following this incident.

Irionic it happend towards the back end of the so called Celtic tiger! Maybe the problem has gone away, so we don't really have to deal with it.

If it happened around 2000 would things have changed?
Probably not.

Will things be any different in the future?
Probably not!

Irish-Trying to say it as I see it.

[ShyTorque]

The District Court hearing was told by Mr Curry’s solicitor that the 37-year-old pilot had moved to Portugal where he was running a helicopter training business.

Almost beyond belief! :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

Thanks for the intended slur. :D

I made mistakes alright; enough for the RAF to make me an A2 QHI and QFI and asked me to sign on for another seventeen years doing the job. The CAA were happy enough to pass me as an FI(H).

Btw - did you ever actually read the accident report? I did. Also, if you fully read this thread, you will see I was one of the few who, before the official report was published, initially gave the pilot the benefit of the doubt.

[Ian Corrigible]

Mrs Reddan’s car, with little Emma inside, had been passing nearby at the time and she it later transpired she suffered nervous shock as a result of the explosion.
What's next, suing the drivers of a fender bender you witnessed? The owner of a cat that just caught a mouse in front of you? Jackie Gleason?
Family Guy: Jackie Gleason

Seems a protective bubble is no longer sufficient. You've got to paint it black as well.

I/C