RAF Leadership

[speeddial]

Can someone please confirm or correct me with my observation that the RAF leadership tree looks like this?

Sec of State for Defence - Des Browne MP
-> Minister of State for Armed Forces - Bob Ainsworth MP
-->Chief of the Defence Staff - ACM Sir Jock Stirrup
--->Chief of the Air Staff - ACM Sir Glenn Torphy
---->C in C Air Command - ACM Sir Clive Loader
----->DCinC Ops - AM Iain McNoll
------>AOC 1Gp/AOC 2Gp/AOC 22Gp

[I'm Off!]

The RAF has Leadership?


Our battles are directed???

[Chugalug2]

The RAF leadership tree looks more like:
Station Commander
Wing Commanders
Squadron/Unit Commanders
Flight Commanders
SNCOs
NCOs
Above the top of this tree there merely extends a bureaucracy with management levels often misleadingly titled as Commanders, Commanders in Chief, etc

[Evalu8ter]

"Our battles are directed??? "

Only if defending Typhoon numbers against the other services........

Isn't PUS/2nd PUS in that loop somewhere?

[KeepItTidy]

Well there is a new word Leadership , something the military has yet to discover.

Just think of a triangle but place it upside down , too many saying we should do this and that but too little to actually do it .

Sooner this gets looked at then things can start to recover

[Tricorn]

The RAF leadership tree looks more like:
Station Commander
Wing Commanders
Squadron/Unit Commanders
Flight Commanders
SNCOs
NCOs


And the WOs?????????:=

[loady wannabe]

Surely WO's come under the same band as SNCO's??

[AdLib]

Oops.

I think you said that out loud.

[Tricorn]

Surely WO's come under the same band as SNCO's??

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!:=:=

My office - tomorrow - 0800 - a hat will not be required:}

[Rigga]

Wow! - I didn't know the "Peter Principle" went so far up the chain

Good luck to all who remain.

[speeddial]

Thanks for the answers so far, I guess my question is focused on the government to military chain of command?

[loady wannabe]

Oh sorry is a WO officer not the most senior of the Senior Non Comissioned Officers???

My appologies.... I'll wear my hat though... I like to keep it on!! ;)

[In Tor Wot]

Can someone please confirm or correct me with my observation that the RAF leadership tree looks like this?


It actually looks like this (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index.php?page=48&thiscontent=30&date=2008-08-28&pubType=1&PublishTime=09:30:00&from=home&tabOption=1):

4* 3
3* 6
2* 25
1* 96
Gp Capt 310
Wg Cdr 1190
Sqn Ldr 2620
Flt Lt 4130
FO/PO 1180

(as at 1 Jul 08)

The only real question I have is, where do we manage to employ 96 Air Cdres?

[Dengue_Dude]

The RAF have more Flag Officers than aircraft?

Hmmmm

[CounterSunk]

Oh sorry is a WO officer not the most senior of the Senior Non Comissioned Officers???


A WO holds the Queens Warrant. The sign outside most Seniors Messes is also a clue, "Warrant Officers & Senior Non-Commissioned Officers Mess"

[PingDit]

And they are both incorrect. They should read:
'WO's & SNCO's Mess' - This method then makes recognition of Flight Sergeants and Chief Technicians as well as Sergeants.

[MAINJAFAD]

The only real question I have is, where do we manage to employ 96 Air Cdres?

Doing jobs what were once that of Wing Commanders and Group Captains. (Being official spies in other people's countries (AKA Air Attaches) and Commanding RAF Stations).

Is the not still the Air Force Board somewhere in the picture (for day to day policy matters at least).

[A2QFI]

We obviously need one Air Commodore per Typhoon!

[It's Not Working]

Pingdit

And they are both incorrect. They should read:
'WO's & SNCO's Mess' - This method then makes recognition of Flight Sergeants and Chief Technicians as well as Sergeants.

Close but not close enough, you might be right one day but not just yet. They should read:

WOs' and SNCOs' Mess

[Pontius Navigator]

Pingdit



Close but not close enough, you might be right one day but not just yet. They should read:

WOs' and SNCOs' Mess

Pingdit is more correct.

The abbrevation of a plural is not shown so that Warrant Officer and Warrant Officers is WO and the possessive for either is thus WO's.

However I believe it would also be correct to say Warrant Officers's Mess. :)

However many pedants would avoid this by eloquent variation and say Mess or Messes for Warrant Officers.

[It's Not Working]

Once upon a time I thought I knew what I was talking about, now I'm not too sure.

Pingdit - My apologies, I'm off to find a dark corner.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Not forgetting that signwriters, engravers (& picture framers) etc have artistic licence

So you're all wrong, (AIDU's photos are correct)

Warrant Officers and Sergeants Mess

[matkat]

So what? we all know what it means.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Those are Messes?

Look more like Holiday Inns and Toby Carverys!

[gilderoy lockhart]

Thread drift, perhaps we could have a photo quiz of Mess's past and present and try and guess their location! We could have a new forum for Mess Spotters!

Starter for 10!

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafmarham/rafcms/mediafiles/7A04DD68_1143_EC82_2E6B55B5B7871D14.jpg

[Chugalug2]

As the the one responsible for the WO posts, following their omission from my "leadership tree", I feel I must try to make amends. Yes, of course they should be featured, but where? I suspect they would suggest at or near the very top! I am minded of the ritual humiliation of some unfortunate on a Cadet Wing Parade at Sleaford Tech by the SWOman;
"Flight Sergeant, Flight Sergeant? Sir! You call me Sir! I call you Sir, you call me Sir, the only difference is you mean it!"
all this at increasing tempo and volume, perfectly enunciated and clearly heard three squadrons down the parade.
Perhaps my omission was psychic, for IIRC the last thread concerning WOs featured a tirade aimed at Coalition ORs that fail to salute Commissioned US WOs (yes I know, but try telling him that) You will notice that I do not spell out what WO stands for, for that is when the Kraken awakes, and then be afraid, be very afraid! May I counsel dropping this subject right now before the worst happens? Better still some kind soul might care to answer the OP's question. Personally I haven't a clue!

[Tigger_Too]

Warrant Officers and Sergeants Mess

I can't believe I'm doing this, but no. Still not correct:

Warrant Officers' and Sergeants' Mess

[Pontius Navigator]

Which is why I presented the fudge solution :)

[Occasional Aviator]

Dengue Dude:

The RAF have more Flag Officers than aircraft?

Err, no.

The RAF has no Flag Officers. We have Air Officers, but even then we have more aircraft than that.

[octavian]

Ah the joys of the apostrophe. I'm with tigger too (up to a point). Warrant Officers (plural); their Mess, therefore Warrant Officers'. Senior Non-Commissioned Officers (also plural); also their Mess, therefore Senior Non-Commissioned Officers', which may be abbreviated to SNCOs'.

Awaiting incomers.

[Pontius Navigator]

Octavian quite right.

SNCOs - plural of SNCO is wrong
SNCOs' - possessive several SNCO is correct
SNCO's - possessive of a single SNCO is correct
SNCO's - plural of SNCO is wrong

:8

[rej]

Octavian and Its not Quite Right

You are both correct; it is WOs' and SNCOs' Mess.

If it were WO's and SNCO's Mess that would indicate just one of each................that may be the future, but not just now.

I will put my ISS past behind me and my red pen away.

[Pontius Navigator]

phew, I think we agree

[TheInquisitor]

Aaaanyway...back on topic...

The RAF doesn't have any 'leadership' nowadays that I'm aware of. It has 'management'...and 'conferences'... and 'steering groups'... and 'audit trails'... and 'end-to-end processes'...:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[speeddial]

So going back to my original question, who is the CDS's boss?

[XXPLOD]

The Defence Secretary

[c130jbloke]

Noted about Marham, but that pic reminds me of Henlow ????

And' as' for' the' fekking' grammar :8

PN: Not an ISS tutor per chance ? Perhaps you should be as that is the only clear reply I have seen on said topic.















Now I'm getting involved too :ugh::ugh:

[speeddial]

Thanks XXPLOD.

[Pontius Navigator]

C130J, no I had a life after death but I got an A- at the time :)