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DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 19:19
Is there any chance instructors doing a check out (for hiring purposes) could restrict themselves to checking and giving helpful advice on their local circuit and environs without attempting to re-train one with their own ideas (except where there is an obvious safety issue, of course)

IRRenewal
17th Sep 2008, 19:21
I would assume the training input you received was required.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 19:22
Some was helpful, some was not.

IRRenewal
17th Sep 2008, 19:28
What makes you qualified to decide what was helpful and what wasn't?

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 19:39
Is there anyone on this forum who is not an instructor? (Sigh!)

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:02
What makes you qualified to decide what was helpful and what wasn't?


Helpful

1) Where the circuit is
2) When the runway is and what bit to land on.
3) Local knowledge on how best to approach.
4) What not to fly over (noise abatement)
5) Where the loo is (on the ground that is)

Not helpful
1) Procedures which every pilot does but not all in exactly the same way as instructor does
2) Re-training where just a reminder would do

Would they be more like a CAA examiner who says little, gives a few hints at crucial moments and leaves the rest for the debriefing

Katamarino
17th Sep 2008, 20:02
I'm not an instructor. I'd tend to give the guy the benefit of the doubt (assuming he wasnt being an arse about it), and if you can't see why his idea are any better than what you're already doing, just tell him what you've been told differently and ask why he prefers his way. At the very worst you've learnt a new way of doing things - and at best, you might prefer it!

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:04
Yes sure - but they don't see it that way. I'm always up to learn something new, but I need time to digest it and decide whether to incorporate it. I feel checker outers (to coin a word) should try to add to and build on your existing skills rather than trying to replace them.

When you're on your own at a new airfield you have to figure out everything for yourself (with the help of your Pooleys guide). You don't usually get it that much wrong and that should be the starting point.

Katamarino
17th Sep 2008, 20:05
Oh - and even if he *is* an arse about it and hs no good reason for doing it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before ;) Play things to your advantage, always!

Even if he doesnt see it that way, who cares - once you're checked out you've only had to suffer him for an hour, and you can go have fun on your own :ok:

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:10
Excellent advice!:D

IRRenewal
17th Sep 2008, 20:20
I have refused to sign off people in the past. They tend to think I did this to spoil their fun, I tend to think I did this to save their lives.

(assuming he wasnt being an arse about it)

The people who deserve criticism most tend to be the same people who protest most.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:23
I have refused to sign off people in the past. They tend to think I did this to spoil their fun, I tend to think I did this to save their lives.


I do hope you wrote to the CAA suggesting their PPLs be revoked, in that case.

Katamarino
17th Sep 2008, 20:31
Would you refuse to sign someone off if they flew to the dead side on a go-around? :bored:

IRRenewal
17th Sep 2008, 20:37
Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much

Katamarino
17th Sep 2008, 20:42
Methinks we're just keen to hear your doubtless educated and more experienced opinions on go-arounds, and see how they compare to what we've been told up to now :) I know I would be - if I'm doing something wrong, I damn sure want to know about it!

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:42
I think PPRune threads should follow some sort of quadrantal or semi-circular rule to ensure separation:ooh:

Katamarino
17th Sep 2008, 20:44
Sorry, my fault :}

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 20:48
Not at all. All the more entertaining

IRRenewal
17th Sep 2008, 20:49
Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor. It wasn't me, I didn't instruct today. But it's threads like this that make me realise I don't miss it all that much.

Say again s l o w l y
17th Sep 2008, 20:55
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

David, if an FI feels it is necessary to make comment on your flying. There is usually a reason. Whilst some do try and force their views on people, it is easy to just say, "well I prefer doing it this way and here's why" then have a discussion about it on the ground.

That way you might learn something and so might they.

Their way may be better or it may be less sensible. It is up to you to judge what is what, but just because you were taught a certain method doesn't make it right and honestly you have such limited experience, listen to everyone you meet. You don't have to follow all the advice given and you'd probably be right to discard most of the guff you'll hear, but you may hear something that one day might save your backside.

How long ago did you pass your test by the way?

eharding
17th Sep 2008, 21:01
Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor.


I have more sympathy for the instructor. Frankly, whatever he got paid, it wasn't enough.

Dave. Give it a rest. I'm still not convinced you aren't a pure-play troll, but if you aren't, a word of advice. Private aviation in the UK is a surprisingly small world. Whilst you appear to have the decency to post under your own name, doing so whilst trying to pick a fight with people you will sooner or later end up flying with, trying to hire aircraft from, or (God help me) trying to buy into a group with, doesn't mark you out as the sharpest tool in the box - it merely marks you out as a complete tool.

Ed.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:10
Not that much time for such chit chat when on final approach.

Yes, I have picked a number of good tips. But I think it's important, especially for a new PPL to stick with what they've learnt to do so well over countless circuits. There may well be better ways to do certain things but if the new pilot has got it at least 90% right then give him or her the credit for it. Trying to re-train takes away the new pilots confidence in himself/herself and that confidence is very important from a safety perspective. I'm not saying OVER-confident - just confident. Overloading a new pilot with too many confusing ways of doing things is ultimately just going to lead to disaster.

The same is true for students moving from one instructor to another.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:13
Whilst you appear to have the decency to post under your own name, doing so whilst trying to pick a fight with people you will sooner or later end up flying with, trying to hire aircraft from, or (God help me) trying to buy into a group with, doesn't mark you out as the sharpest tool in the box - it merely marks you out as a complete tool.

Good advice. DavidHoul52 is going to shortly disappear from this forum. Watch out for a new poster called Troll.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:18
Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor. It wasn't me, I didn't instruct today. But it's threads like this that make me realise I don't miss it all that much.

Sorry - I know, I know. I don't really hate instructors at all. I admire the passion they put into what they do for very meagre reward. It can't be the safest profession either.

dublinpilot
17th Sep 2008, 21:20
Oh lets be honest, not all instructors are perfect. There certainly are some terrible ones around.

I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.

One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).

The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out :hmm:

As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).

Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:25
would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.

I don't have a particular gripe against any particular instructor. It's just a general observation.

S-Works
17th Sep 2008, 21:26
Oh lets be honest, not all instructors are perfect. There certainly are some terrible ones around.

I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.

One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).

The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out

As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).

Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.

Wise words as ever DP.

englishal
17th Sep 2008, 21:27
Actually in my experience, there are many FI's who want to act like FE's on checkouts. Especially required checkouts. Many of them are hour building boeing-gear-operator-wannabes who are just doing it to fill their time until that can get their hand on that gear lever - later on they get to operate the flaps too I am told...

But on the other end of the scale, there are some brilliant ones who's advice is worth every penny. They tend to be the career instructors or those that instruct not because they *have* to but because they enjoy it.....

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:31
New PPLs are especially fair game, I suspect.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 21:43
Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor.

No I wouldn't say that today's experience was especially bad - I just felt like making a point, that's all.

Say again s l o w l y
17th Sep 2008, 22:12
What point was that? What exactly was it that the FI tried to change about your flying. Was it a suggestion to change the order of your checklists? Or something else trivial (if so they should be taken out and shot) or was it that they were trying to make a suggestion about something more technical and important?

Given the comments you've made in the last couple of days . I suspect the latter.

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 22:22
I'm just raising a point.

The time I might or might not have had with someone who might or might not have been an instructor I do not considered wasted - no.

I also thought this forum needed some livening up. The other threads running at this time are dead boring.

Say again s l o w l y
17th Sep 2008, 22:26
In English please and could you answer the question. What was it the FI tried to monkey around with?

Oh, definately a troll then..........FFS :rolleyes:

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 22:42
Had something to say just about everything... and don't jump in and say I needed it because I've been flying regularly and safely ever since my skills test.

Can one report this to the CAA I wonder?

Say again s l o w l y
17th Sep 2008, 22:50
No. Well you could but they'd laugh at you.

Now, I'll write out 100 times. I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll...........................

DavidHoul52
17th Sep 2008, 22:57
I really can't believe the meanness and lack of objectivity of some posters! Because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a "troll". For goodness sake!

Experience is good. Reading from people who have experience is good. Some of them have posted on this forum and I'm listening to them.

Is private aviation a fascist state controlled by some kind of mafia? A forum is just that - a place where you can say what you like. Don't condemn people for saying what they understand. If you really have a convincing counter-argument then please say it. Calling people names and trying to belittle them only shows that you doubt your own position.

Say again s l o w l y
17th Sep 2008, 23:16
OK. Tell us exactly what this evil and obviously incompetent FI did, then we can all tell you how hard done by you were.

We've had plenty of trolls on here before and on many other forae I occasionally frequent. Normally they ask questions in a similar manner to yourself just to get a reaction and have a childish giggle when someone bites.

You seem to have a problem in getting advice. You have received some very good bits of it here and yet you seem to ignore it.

Flying is about being mentally prepared and being willing to accept that none of us know it all. Being an arrogant know it all when you blatantly don't is one sure fire way of getting yourself killed in an aircraft.

If you want advice. Put out a specific question that people can answer and read the replies.

At the moment having had a quick look at your posting history it seems that you have held a licence for just a few months. You have a licence. Well, whoop de doo.
Congratulations on passing the skills test, but don't for one minute think that passing a PPL test makes you the best pilot in the world or even anything more than barely competent.

Imagine walking into the clubhouse and coming out with stuff like this. Your FI would be having kittens. Why do you think any of us here would be any different? There are many PPL's here, but don't you notice the lack of support for your views to be somewhat suspicious?

This isn't about FI's clubbing together, but lots of people read this site for advice, especially inexperienced ones. So if they read tripe such as you have posted, then horrifyingly they may think it's OK to act in the same manner.
A similar problem occurs with books. "It must be true. I read it in a book/magazine/etc.etc."

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 00:22
Congratulations on passing the skills test, but don't for one minute think that passing a PPL test makes you the best pilot in the world or even anything more than barely competent.

I'm only too aware of that.

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 00:35
Tell us exactly what this evil and obviously incompetent FI did

I never said anyone was evil or incompetent. I am not complaining about anyone.

Maybe an example will help to explain my point better.

What I have done countless times on downwind leg is - do the pre-landing checks - during these pre-landing checks I set carb heat to hot and leave it there - I radio downwind. I turn into base leg - reduce power - two stages of flap - pitch for 65 knots. Turn on to final at 500 feet agl and 30 degree bank on to final.

Now I'm told - call downwind first - don't set carb heat to cold - just check it - turn onto base leg - carb heat on - reduce power - two stages of flap - pitch for 65 knots. Turn on to final at 500 feet agl and 20 degree bank on to final.

Ok - there's absolutely nothing wrong with this second way of doing things. I can think of reasons why it is actually better.

My point is is that it is the difference which is a) potentially a cause of confusion resulting in my forgetting something b) it increases the workload and c) it means that I need to now practice umpteen more circuits to get it right. Nice money for the flying club. Nice hours for the instructor.

If I arrived in my own aircraft or an aircraft from my "home" flying club (who are quite happy for me to fly it to any licensed airfield in the UK or Europe) I would successfully land at this new airfield with no trouble at all. I did the first way in my skills test and the CAA had no problem with it. I landed the plane - that's all that matters!

So please - I am not fighting with any instructor! It's just the system - which I realise makes sense in some ways - at least one doesn't have to pay insurance like when you hire a car - but in other ways is entirely illogical apart from an income generating point of view.

Say again s l o w l y
18th Sep 2008, 01:08
Given that example. I would have told the FI to shut up and let me get on with it. If you are flying competently and it is a checkout not a training flight, then it isn't up to them to change what you are doing as long as you aren't doing anything daft.

I would prefer 20 deg of bank onto final when at 65 kts too, but in reality I'm not looking inside the cockpit at this time. I just want you to safely fly around the corner and onto final approach without weaving around like a drunk.

I'm a bit confused with the comments they made about carb heat, but I think I know what you mean and none of it would warrant a comment in the air. I might have a quick chat on the ground, but on a checkout I'm only seeing that you are safe without the need for intervention.

So in this case David 1 : FI 0.

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 01:20
Thanks. Maybe I should have chatted to the FI about this before the flight.

BackPacker
18th Sep 2008, 07:18
David, have you asked the instructor to explain to you why the turn to final should be at 20 degrees, not more? Not just "because the book says so" but the actual aerodynamics involved in making turns when being about 30% above the stall?

Limiting your turns to final to 20 degrees AoB is normal aviation practice and has come about because a lot of people lost their lives by doing more, with not enough speed.

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 12:25
As I said - there are reasons for thinking the "new" way as better and I absolutely agree with you. I've been taught to use 30 degrees when the speed on base leg is 70 knots. 20 degrees would certainly be more advisable at 65 knots. There was a difference in circuit height between this airfield and the usual 1000 feet agl so the base leg is flown 5 knots slower.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Big Pistons Forever
18th Sep 2008, 13:41
A couple of points

1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.

2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.

2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.

3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.

Julian
18th Sep 2008, 14:33
There will always be good and bad instructors, just as you would get in any profession. I have had brilliant ones and not so brilliant, I have only ever ditched one instructor who whilst being an excellent pilot his instructional skills were a bit lame.

My view is that if an FI shows you another of doing something (such as downwind checks), then listen and see what you think. Some you will swap to and others you will dismiss, there is more than one way to skin a cat and they may have a better way than your adequate way!

I wouldnt tell them to shut up straight away - unless of course they are being a pompous @rse then just decide nod and get the hour over and done with so you go off on your own.

J.

julian_storey
18th Sep 2008, 14:59
David does seem to have possibly got the short straw with his instructor.

Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.

Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.

I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.

One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 16:56
DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.

No I just said it might lead to confusion for a low hours PPL. As I said before I welcome other ideas and adopt them or reject them (like everyone does).

Enough preaching!

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 16:58
David does seem to have possibly got the short straw with his instructor.

Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.

Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.

I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.

One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)


Thanks Julian - I couldn't have put it better myself! :D

englishal
18th Sep 2008, 18:26
Limiting your turns to final to 20 degrees AoB is normal aviation practice and has come about because a lot of people lost their lives by doing more, with not enough speed.
Actually I'd use 30 deg AOB on base to final - as I was taught a while ago now. Now on climb out on turn to crosswind, I'd limit my turn to 20 deg, maybe less.

Here is another example:

I do crosswinds using the wing down method. It has worked for me for 8 years, and in up to 25kts (TB10) - I'd even say I'm pretty good at them. No worries, never scraped a wing along the runway yet. Fly with nervous instructor who insists I use a crab method with a big bootfull of rudder last minute....Because that is the way he was taught at Oxford. He even starts interfering with the controls when I am making a perfectly good approach and landing.....idiot. He did complement me on my 180 deg turn on instruments though - no sh*t, I had a current IR so if I couldn't do that then there is seriously something wrong.......:}

DavidHoul52
18th Sep 2008, 18:34
Actually I'd use 30 deg AOB on base to final - as I was taught a while ago now. Now on climb out on turn to crosswind, I'd limit my turn to 20 deg, maybe less.

Yes that is what I was taught.


I do crosswinds using the wing down method.


I use whatever feels right - it's probably the crab method with final rudder "kick" but I want to practice the wing down method a bit more.

In the Cessna crosswinds up to 10 knots are not that big a deal. That's my limit anyway.

modelman
18th Sep 2008, 20:07
I guess I must have been very fortunate to have some real gents as instructors (or they have been scared dumb:eek:).
When being checked out on an unfamiliar a/c,I have received a ground briefing (which is always a 2 way affair,not a 'lecture').When performing an action,I have always spoken what I am doing/speeds etc to let the FI know of my intentions.They are usually happy to accept 'my' way but I am pleased to accept comments like 'maybe you're a little high' etc along the way.Never had any real issues,the debrief seems to be the best place to discuss the finer points and I think you absorb it better when back on the ground.
Keep talking to your FI's,mine have always been happy to respond to emails regarding flying techniques.
MM

Julian
18th Sep 2008, 20:10
Fly with nervous instructor

Reminds me of the one we took to Jersey hehe

J.

S-Works
18th Sep 2008, 21:37
In the Cessna crosswinds up to 10 knots are not that big a deal. That's my limit anyway.

Bah, 38kts at 90Deg at Guernsey. I have the trophy in front of me to prove it...... :O

Pace
18th Sep 2008, 22:05
David

I have read through this thread so a few comments. Firstly checks of one kind or another are part of aviation from the word go right through to those who fly commercially hold type ratings and ATPs.

As you gain experience you will develop your own ways of flying and discover your own strengths and weaknesses.

Being honest with yourself is the first goal as then you will identify the areas you need the work on rather than being self defensive against any critical attitude to your flying.

That to me shows a lack of confidence which will shine through in the wrong way to an examiner.

Mentally detach from the examiner and concentrate on flying the best you can and be open to advice even if you dont agree.

We cannot get on with everyone but especially as you climb higher in the realms of aviation you cannot choose who you are examined by.

Most examiners have their own likes and dislikes so identify those and with a confident smile play the game and try to be a bit more thick skinned and a bit more fox like.

I remember one guy who was renowned for his own ways and shouting at his students he was type rated on every Boeing made. I was on a test in a citation and the elderly guy asked for a clean approach and then gave me the full flap VREF speed and bugged it.

I noted that mistake worked out the correct VREF and carried the extra speed. Sure enough "what are you doing your way above VREF" came his angry call.

My reply with a knowing wink was " realised you were trying to catch me out on the VREF clean very clever" He coughed nervously having realised his mistake and me giving him a way out took it. The result was that I passed with glowing colours in his eyes and that was what is important.

Lighten up, chill out, realise your own weaknesses, listen to people who have a lot more experience and let your confidence speak for itself not your mouth.

Pace

Contacttower
18th Sep 2008, 22:32
I have the trophy in front of me to prove it...... http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/embarass.gif

A broken runway light? :}

B2N2
19th Sep 2008, 00:15
it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before:mad::mad::mad:
Got to this thread a little late I guess.......

A couple of points

1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.

2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.

2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.

3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.

Big Pistons, if you ever make it to my neck of the woods I'll gladly buy you a beer.....brilliant post :ok:

DavidHoul52
19th Sep 2008, 13:16
Thanks for all the replies.

I've been mulling over my "experience" the last few days and have come up with a few thoughts.

First of all - the instructor per se was great and we got along brilliantly (although I think he was a bit upset when I said afterwards I wondered whether it was worthwhile continuing - he wanted me to come back for a few more circuits at a later date).

It was probably the wrong time for me to think about hiring aircraft at a new airfield. Perhaps I am trying to be too adventurous. I had just got my PPL and naturally one wants to just go and have fun. The thought of more training when you've already done more than you think you can bear for the present is very off-putting. Also it breaks your new found and rather fragile confidence.

On the other hand, if not now - then when? I'm a trifle bored with my local area - having done plenty of nav in my student days. Also my fly clubs hire charges are quite a bit more than most. To fly out of the area and explore further afield is going to cost a fortune.

I'm sure everyone has had the feeling of intense frustration after a lesson which didn't go the way you would have liked. Typically after a few days I think - well it was quite a useful experience after all - and I pat myself on the back for having the courage to try it.

So- maybe not back to the nest just yet!

Katamarino
19th Sep 2008, 13:34
Quote:
it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before

:mad::mad::mad:
Got to this thread a little late I guess.......


B2N2 - I note that you deliberately ignored the points I made about discussing with the instructor why he wanted you to do it differently, and that only if you are certain that its a stupid thing (such as him wanting you to change the order of your downwind checks so that he can follow them more easily) should you proceed to humour him and go back to your previous method. Please, learn to read.

The assumption that an instructor is a god who can do no wrong is just as idiotic as the assumption that ones self is a god who can do no wrong. It takes a liberal dose of common sense, research, and advice from a variety of trusted sources before you can properly make your mind up as to the best procedure.

Katamarino
19th Sep 2008, 14:14
David - good post. It may be that another hour or so of circuits is just the final hurdle to jump through before you can start doing more interesting flying, and *really* start learning! I'd suggest taking him up on it, making sure you have a full discussion and briefing before the flight about what he thinks you need to cover, and how you're going to cover it. Then you can concentrate on skills while in the air, doubtless gain some valuable knowledge, and get off on your own forthwith!

It'll be worth it - I tend to regard that any dual training is good dual training!

Say again s l o w l y
19th Sep 2008, 14:25
There are two sides to the checkout coin.

When doing a checkout it is up to the FI to make sure that the person is safe and that they aren't going to bend the aircraft. I fall very much into the camp of taking an overall view of someone, not just picking holes in silly little things like the order that memory checks are done in.

As long as everything is covered, then frankly who gives a monkeys?

However, if you fly with someone who is blatantly all over the shop, who for example lines up with the road not the runway, then you are well within your rights to ask for it to be done again and again until you are comfortable that the person being check out isn't going to damage your aircraft or themselves.

As I've often said here, you can tell how competent someone is going to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. How they conduct themselves, how they checkout the aircraft, how receptive they are to what you are saying in the brief, what planning they do and to what standard etc.etc.

The flying is often then just a formality, but with some people you almost need to start from scratch.

When someone new comes to the club, they need to be receptive to how you do things there. As soon as you hear the words "but that wasn't how I was trained" the alarm bells start ringing. Not because they were taught badly but because they are not open to new ideas and techniques.

Is this ringing any bells?

B2N2
19th Sep 2008, 14:40
Katamarino relax.....;)

When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so :ok:

DavidHoul52
19th Sep 2008, 14:41
There are two sides to the checkout coin.

When doing a checkout it is up to the FI to make sure that the person is safe and that they aren't going to bend the aircraft. I fall very much into the camp of taking an overall view of someone, not just picking holes in silly little things like the order that memory checks are done in.

As long as everything is covered, then frankly who gives a monkeys?

However, if you fly with someone who is blatantly all over the shop, who for example lines up with the road not the runway, then you are well within your rights to ask for it to be done again and again until you are comfortable that the person being check out isn't going to damage your aircraft or themselves.

As I've often said here, you can tell how competent someone is going to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. How they conduct themselves, how they checkout the aircraft, how receptive they are to what you are saying in the brief, what planning they do and to what standard etc.etc.

The flying is often then just a formality, but with some people you almost need to start from scratch.

When someone new comes to the club, they need to be receptive to how you do things there. As soon as you hear the words "but that wasn't how I was trained" the alarm bells start ringing. Not because they were taught badly but because they are not open to new ideas and techniques.

Is this ringing any bells?



I understand absolutely. It just I hadn't expected that kind of investment in re-training when I started out, so obviously there was a feeling of frustration.

Taking in the whole picture I am grateful for anything that is going to make me a safer and more competent pilot.

Sounds like my escapades are doing the flying club bar circuit! :O

Katamarino
19th Sep 2008, 14:48
B2N2 - ok, no hard feelings :ok:

Say again s l o w l y
19th Sep 2008, 15:04
There shouldn't need to be any "retraining" done. It isn't about changing how you do everything, usually it is just explaining how certain things are done differently at different places.

As someone who has just passed their test, I would hope your basic skills are fine, especially in regard to the basics such as landing, take off, climb out and the general handling element that is part of checking someone out at a new club.

So your experience should be about learning new procedures and about the local area, rather than training you how to fly the thing in the first place.

DavidHoul52
19th Sep 2008, 15:09
It isn't about changing how you do everything, usually it is just explaining how certain things are done differently at different places.

Maybe landing away more often would give me a wider experience.

dublinpilot
19th Sep 2008, 15:11
David,

It's probably also fair so say, that as you get more experience, you'll find these little things less of an issue to deal with.

For example, remember when you first learnt to drive? Driving a different car from the one you learnt in was a major hurdle, as everything felt different.

After you've been driving for a bit, you can jump in and out of different rental cars, barely noticing the difference.

Flying can be similar. After getting your PPL, being asked to make a slight adjustment to how you do things can be a major hurdle, but when you get some more experience, and get much more comfortable with everything, these changes come much easier ;)

Don't get too fustrated by this.

My honest advice would be to try and pair up with another PPL in your club, and start to fly together, a bit further away than you are used to. One fly each direction. It will help build up your experience and confidence much quicker, than being able to rent from another location ;) It will also help you feel less 'on your own' as a new PPL can often feel, surrounded by more experienced pilots.

dp

DavidHoul52
19th Sep 2008, 15:15
I like your advice - thanks:D

Say again s l o w l y
19th Sep 2008, 15:30
It's funny but I was just thinking about Dublinpilots post and he makes sense, but I've found a wierd thing happen as I got more experienced. When I jumped in and out of different aircraft I noticed the differences even more. They didn't bother me or change how I could fly the aircraft, but it's just that I could feel the difference between individual aircraft and how they responded.

New aircraft that were behind eachother on the production line feel totally different to fly, let alone some baggy old Cessnas that have been bent, dropped and generally abused for the last 20 years!

englishal
19th Sep 2008, 17:18
Reminds me of the one we took to Jersey hehe
Ah yea...:}

Final 3 Greens
20th Sep 2008, 03:31
It's funny but I was just thinking about Dublinpilots post and he makes sense, but I've found a wierd thing happen as I got more experienced. When I jumped in and out of different aircraft I noticed the differences even more.

I don't find your experience wierd at all, I experienced the same thing.

Probably something to do with less mental capacity being required to do the basics, so the brain starts to process other stuff and you notice things that were not apparent before.

I've only a few hundred hours, so it would be interesting to know if someone with 10 or 20k had the same experience and whether the awareness continued to grow or whether it disappeared again as competence/experience grew.

bobdee
20th Sep 2008, 06:07
A surprisingly interesting thread! David has a point in that every pilot has his or her own way of doing things. A truly professional examiner will, as as been stated earlier, get a general impression of the capablities very early in the proceedings and as said, the rest is a formality.
I have recently moved to France and had to do a French skills test at the local club. It was soon apparent that the examiner was very intent in showing me how skillful he was, rather than checking me out. Being a professional Citation pilot, he revelled in keeping the nose wheel of the C172 hard on the ground until rotation and using 10 degrees of flap well outside the white arc. It certainly wasnt my place to comment on his technique though. (Some no doubt will say I should have done!), all I wanted to achieve was my license signed off. This he did with a comment that an hour with an instructor to practice cross wind techniques woudlnt come amiss. Have to say though, his nose wheel method, certainly helps to keep the centre line. Shame about the tyres etc!

BobD