Aliatalia 40 flights cancelled, meeting at 1530L

[eagle21]

Minister meeting the unions at 1530L, lots of strikes going aroung in the aviation sector in Italy.

Something will happen today.

[6000PIC]

Save face , or save the Airline , I wonder what`s gonna happen.

[apaddyinuk]

Sadly if its one thing that aviation history has thought us its that saving face is often the most chosen path! LOL!

[Doodles]

Got to feel sorry for some of the staff and the travelling public but at the end of the day - basketcase

[zon3]

Thought state subsidised airlines were against EU laws... How do they get away with it?

[uncomfortable]

I doubt AZ can continue the way it is now. Also because the current Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has a lot at stake in this, as he promised to "save Alitalia and keep it Italian"during the last electoral campaign.
In order to do this, he dragged into the game 16 Italian enterpreneurs (promising all sorts of favours), and at this moment he is the only one who stands to lose a lot from Alitalia going bust.

[RadAlt]

Not to worry. The Italian maffia that is their government will keep this airline airborn.:*

[2Planks]

But surely nobody is booking with them at the moment given the threats last Friday from the Administrator that they might not have enough money to pay for fuel. They must have a severe cash flow problem now??

[el #]

Spelling is "alitalia" for as long such a thing exists ...

Anyway, bookings are down only 26% (official figure), not much more as one could expect.

unconfortable, sorry but you're wrong mate. Mr Berlusconi has already pointed out (and is likely to be believed, considering his good popularity right now) that he did what promised and if the company goes belly up, only unions are to blame. He (and the unions) can survive such an event, the really affected ones will be workers, passengers, and the economy .

Things will drag until tomorrow when both the offer will be retired and money will be really over, so check back then.

And this thread will be soon moved to AA&R where it belongs.

[Lazy skip]

Rad alt,
Spell it properly at least.. Mafia not maffia:D

[BEagle]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/dc.jpg

"What's this word 'closure'?" "This word, it's an ugly word. A word I don't like to hear..."

"Si, Godfather"

"So you tell these punks, the family's gonna make 'em an offer. Capisce?"

"Si, Godfather"

"If they know what's good for them, multo bene. If not....."

"Capisco!"
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

[Lazy skip]

If not..
you know... we have friends.. we know people..
Statemi a buono tutti quanti

[Beancounter1]

$1.3bn State Aid 1996-2000
E1.4bn State Aid Jan02 + tax reductions
E400m Oct04 Rescue Aid
E300m Apr08 Rescue Aid

EU law obviously does not apply in Italy

[larssnowpharter]

The Italian thread is a fascinating read if you can undertstand the lingo.

Arguments tend to be along the lines of:

'We are the State airline. We deserve to be paid more than you lowco drivers. Up there with BA, LH we are. Holidays? Union negotiated, therefore untouchable'. etc etc

Counter argumets along the lines of:

'Get a life. Half the jobs in AZ are given to the springoffs of well connected persons. Competitive World. Put yourself on the same level as BA, LH? You gotta be kidding etc etc'

Add to that a lot of pointing fingers, crew at management, management at crew and you get the general - rather typical - Italian picture.

Sad really

[Farrell]

Italy Video Italian vs. Europeans (http://www.lifeinitaly.com/flash/)

[el #]

No spicejetter, IFF the new Alitalia takes off, will NOT be anything like before.

Cuts, reduction and productivity increase are drastic. Both for pilots and not.

The merge with Air One is also a major change.

The new owners are hard businessmen lead by a bank, know not to be generous people, and if their conditions are not met, they will withdraw the offer. The only reason they're there in first place, is because pressure received from Berlusconi.

Whatever happens, the Alitalia that you know and in many cases disliked, is no more. For real this time.

EDIT: sorry, I don't know from where I picked the "26% reduction in booking". number I don't think anything has been released actually, as it seems a question anyone is scared to ask.

[RMarvin86]

Italy Video Italian vs. Europeans (http://www.lifeinitaly.com/flash/)

All true!!! :D

[el #]

Actually two of three major unions for non-pilots are OK to sign tomorrow.
No final word (but looks more like no than yes) for one large unions and both pilot's organizations.

The only alternative to a deal of ALL parts tomorrow is grounding and this is clear to anyone.

[merlinxx]

Gonna be some sad folks at CIA & FCO this night. One message, grow up and join the REAL world folks, it hurts.

I have sadness for my chums in AZ & associates, but you engineered your own failure!

[Dani]

I think it's an unprecendented situation where an airline is close to bancrupty and employees are going on strike!

In every other country folks would be happy that the company is still going and would give everything for it.

Dani

[FrequentSLF]

ps:just one little note for u: in 61 yrs, all the employees could had work for free and AZ would be in the exact same situation. Go read the 61 balance sheet, It's a lot of work but it's really eyes openers. I know since I did it...

Please spare us those comments. Are the Armani's charged under the employees costs?
Your reasoning is the basis of the failure of AZ. What about when AZ wanted to reduce costs cutting one FA on short haul domestic flights? Who went on strike? The PAX?

[cpt nobody]

same old story always the people that work for the airline fault the managment is always right:D of course cause the managment never works and as we all know when you dont do nothing you cant make mistakes

[Viking101]

Well, AlItalia has not shown profit since when? 1998? So the answer to why they have managed to keep it flying is of course Silvio and gov money. Which is the people (taxpayers) who really pays for it. :yuk:

There is a natural cause of saving a flag carrier. Sometimes the best thing to do is to sell it (LH buying SAS?). Silvio and his government has lots of money but it would not surprise if the people one day would have had enough of paying for its own carrier out of their own pockets. :=

AZ has been close to fall so many times before, thanks to new money, legislation, politics and "miscellaneous ways"...Now some unions have actually trying to save whats left of it. I would believe its too late but maybe an reorganization would be appropriate to save the name. :confused:

Will not be surprised if AlItalia gets new money in mysterious ways and survives another year, neither if they fall... :rolleyes:

[FIRESYSOK]

And so you've had your paycuts and increase in work schedule like the rest of the world. Now sign, and save the arrogance for a better day.

[el #]

FrequentSLF: you are the one that should save trite comments and try to understand what is unequivocally being told you:

IF AZ LOST AND LOSES MONEY, IS NOT EMPLOYEES FAULT

If you want to think otherwise may be is because C/C are very easy visualize and blame, and you've been feed by junk media, fine, you're just one more gullible person.

Anyone expressing swift judgment on how Alitalia workers should humbly accept what is proposed to them, should get better information or not say anything at all. Two quick examples:

Ground handling, about 40 hours weekly, take home eur 800 monthly.

F/O with multi year experience, fly maximum legal hours, take home eur 2,500. If for any reason you fly less, can be as low as 1,300.

And cost of living in Italy is NOT any lower that somewhere else in Europe, actually the opposite.

Again, Alitalia proposing buyers are not there with any generous attitude. Yes, they have promised to share 7% of the profit with workforce if and when a profit is made. But remember they had zero interest in entering the aviation business before being summoned by Berlusconi, and they will play the game only if they have a definite upper hand since the beginning. In fact, if a deal is not made, they can just blame unions and go back investing their money on whatever they are doing now that is certainly less risky an complicated.

[B747-800]

AZ has been mismanaged for ages and nobody cared cause the government just sunk money in.

The mentallity of the employees are also "screwed up" (as you can see with the strike.

Let AZ go under. Anyhow their aircraft will end up at the boneyard. Who wants to fly aircraft which are older than their FOs and FAs?

[FrequentSLF]

FrequentSLF: you are the one that should save trite comments and try to understand what is unequivocally being told you:

IF AZ LOST AND LOSES MONEY, IS NOT EMPLOYEES FAULT

And who's fault?
Of the passengers which avoid flying AZ because of the arrogance of the cabin crew?

I am taking almost 200 flights per year and it is more than 10 years I avoid flying AZ because of the attitude of the employees and this is not media brainwashing, it is my personal experience.

Your statement implies the reason why the fault is on the employees...talking about money, hours and forget the most important thing: PRODUCTIVITY.

I might remind you that 1,300 Euro is well above average salary in Italy and nobody else in Italy is taken by a shuttle plane from Rome to Milan to go work at Company expenses! And how many benefits are there unknown to the public?

I am personally tired of hearing AZ employees crying for more or striking for less every second day.

You said that Buyers are forcing their hand? Right, welcome to the real world of competition. If AZ was a profitable company with a reputation, any Buyer will pay a premium and the employees will get bonuses.

You have 9 unions and they cannot agree each other on what to reply to the offers made...what you call this?

I am Italian and I leave in KUL, during the SARS crisis, most of the employees of SEA airlines have taken voluntary pay cut, otherwise they knew their employer will go belly up!

Anyway you read how many posts on this thread are criticizing AZ employees, coming from colleagues!

Regards

[condorbaaz]

Personally,

The management should have seen this coming but as they always had been helped they thought it will continue.

The conspiracy theory of Air One as brought out elsewhere in this forum could be just that ... a theory.

My only experience in a Long Haul Alitalia flight was in coach class where the matronly FA shouted in Italian at another pax. When I asked somebody , I was told that she has told the group of youngsters" I am old enough to be your grandmother and you don even say Thank you after i give you food'

Another FA (Male) doing the Juice and coffee service together???
(MY company... Juice and beverage service and then Tea/ coffee service)
I requested for Coffee later he replied''NO Later, Only Now"... and this when we were 4 hrs from Milan..

So yeah service is NOT GOOD and we are the service industry.
We are all safe enough now, so safety is not a major factor when selecting flights. Korean has many accidents to its credit but is still a prospering airline because of SERVICE.

Never ineracted with the Pilots in Armani though...

[Wingswinger]

Spelling is "alitalia" for as long such a thing exists ...


Shouldn't that be "Ailitalia"? :}

[Golden Ticket]

Condorbaaz,

I agree with the matronly Alitalia attendant, not done enough with kids these days. I agree with you on the rest though.

Some people feel Alitalia should be allowed to fall. Others don't believe it ever will and that there is enough sneakiness to maintain the status quo. Perhaps many of the staff and unions believe the second to be so which is why they won't give ground and sign up.

[Midland Alpha9]

Broken model years behind the rest of the european carriers let alone the real full service global carriers. Flown with them three times in the past 18 months GRIM:{. It should R.I.P.

[Re-Heat]

While the experiences of some people travelling on Alitalia appear terrible, and the employees are also moaning about any changes to their benefits, I think that the criticisim should take a slight step back:

- If management had been strong, providing focus on the product and service standards, there would be no question that the service provided in Economy would have been top notch. In the absence of such leadership, the employees have been left to their own devices - quite a natural reaction for employees working in a company in which they have no pride. While inexcusible behaviour, it is the lack of leadership and decent management that is the cause.

- Whatever the Ts and Cs of the pilots and other staff, nobody in any company will ever be happy to learn that they are paid above market rate and that is can no longer be sustained. I do think AZpilot and others paint a very one-sided view of their situation, as there are many other benefits to which the employees are entitled, above and beyond those that the market offers. However, once again, a lack of management and leadership have lead to this predicament, as nobody has the balls to stand up and present a true picture of the situation to the staff. I too would be gutted to learn that we were all to be chopped, particularly when management and the government have spent so many years avoiding the problem.

In conclusion - good luck to the staff. However, you company is going the way of the Roman Empire - very quickly.

[Golden Ticket]

Fair do's frequentSLF I'll edit corruption out.

[green granite]

An interesting twist from yesterdays Guridian

It is already the business story with everything: political gambles, patriotic sensitivities, all-night talks in smoky rooms and uniformed flight attendants chanting protest slogans beneath the prime minister's window. All that was missing from the saga of Alitalia's demise and planned rebirth was the police and a whiff of suspected illegality.
No longer. Officers of Italy's revenue guard turned up yesterday at the Rome headquarters of its bankrupt flag-carrier and walked out with 10 years' worth of company accounts. The operation was mounted by prosecutors investigating the airline's demise.

[Finn47]

The unions now have about two minutes left to make up their mind. Let´s see what gives.

[xplorer]

Heard the talks between the airline and the government collapsed!
Any truth to these rumours?
:confused:

[Poof in Boots]

The problem with ALITALIA is that it has the countries name in its logo.

If ALITALIA fails, Italy fails.

[Finn47]

La Repubblica.it indeed already reports that the new investors (CAI) have cancelled their offer to buy Alitalia.

[Poof in Boots]

So that's it then?

Berlusconi has changed Italy's bankruptcy laws to enable the state to take on an E1.2 billion bail out of the company and they still can't make a go of it!!! :D

[Finn47]

Further reports indicate the chairman of CAI, Roberto Colaninno, has proposed to the investors that the deal be cancelled, but they still have to vote on it. Things should become clearer shortly.

[apaddyinuk]

Not sure if this is old news or not but it was only posted today on this website.
Looks like the crew unions had their own proposals.

ANSA.it - News in English - Alitalia: Unions present offer (http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/awnplus/english/news/2008-09-18_118271202.html)

[Ebow]

Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Alitalia SpA's bidding group CAI dropped its offer for Italy's largest airline after failing to win the support of all nine labor unions for the government- backed rescue plan, news agency Radiocor reported.

The group, led by Piaggio & C. SpA Chairman Roberto Colaninno, withdrew its bid to buy assets from Rome-based Alitalia, the news agency said, citing people familiar with the situation.

[Magplug]

If ALITALIA fails, Italy fails
It's a bit late for that... the whole country has been unfit for purpose for at least five years.

Alitalia will never go bust - the govt. will step in

That's what the Pilots union are pinning ALL their hopes on. When you have a job in Italy, in many cases you got it by using a family connection or actually bribing an official to get it. Italian labor law makes it extremely hard to terminate someone for poor performance, so.....

.....Much of the time the attitude is... This is my job, it is bought and paid for. That's a difficult mentality to get past.

[FrequentSLF]

It's a bit late for that... the whole country has been unfit for purpose for at least five years.

Well...not correct...Italy won the world cup

That's what the Pilots union are pinning ALL their hopes on. When you have a job in Italy, in many cases you got it by using a family connection or actually bribing an official to get it. Italian labor law makes it extremely hard to terminate someone for poor performance, so.....

.....Much of the time the attitude is... This is my job, it is bought and paid for. That's a difficult mentality to get past.

Seems that you a lot of insight about the job market in Italy, unfortunately are pretty wrong...poor performance is a valid reason for dismissal according to the Italian labor law, agreed that the law makes extremely hard to terminate the job...
Anyway the bribing or family connection is an insult to millions of Italians that deserve they job and got it by merit.

[marchino61]

Quote from spicejetter:

"It would appear true - but I still stand by what I said before - Alitalia will never go bust - the govt. will step in - expect an announcement in a few hours. Perhaps it will renationalise. It will not go. Good thing - there are enough out of work pilots out there."

Not a good thing. Subsidised airlines like Alitalia undercut everyone else. Other airlines go bust - pilots lose jobs. Or other airlines can't raise prices because too much supply in the market - pilots pay held down.

Economics 101.

[marchino61]

@Fequenct SLF:

"Seems that you a lot of insight about the job market in Italy, unfortunately are pretty wrong...poor performance is a valid reason for dismissal according to the Italian labor law, agreed that the law makes extremely hard to terminate the job...
Anyway the bribing or family connection is an insult to millions of Italians that deserve they job and got it by merit."

Yes, but those who got their jobs on merit work in the private sector......

[FrequentSLF]

"It would appear true - but I still stand by what I said before - Alitalia will never go bust - the govt. will step in - expect an announcement in a few hours. Perhaps it will renationalise. It will not go. Good thing - there are enough out of work pilots out there."

Not a good thing. Subsidised airlines like Alitalia undercut everyone else. Other airlines go bust - pilots lose jobs. Or other airlines can't raise prices because too much supply in the market - pilots pay held down.

Economics 101.

Alitalia is already bankrupt. The appointed commissary, if cannot find a buyer, will start to sell assets to pay for the debts. The government will not step in because cannot step in

[FrequentSLF]

@marchino61

Yes, but those who got their jobs on merit work in the private sector......

And I am referring to those millions! :ok:

[FrequentSLF]

It is official the offer has been dropped.

Blaming game is already started.

[vanHorck]

being European but not Italian, i hope the EU will be strong and not tolerate any government funding of Alitalia, not even as a "loan"

Enough is enough

[ATSA1]

I( was speaking to a couple of Italians last week, and I asked them about Alitalia, they said everything was fine, and a deal would be reached!

Could it be that Italy as a nation, is just in denial about Alitalia? They have seen so many near-collapses before, that they believe even now that the Govt., or the EU will step in and rescue it?

[Poof in Boots]

And now the EU Transport Commissioner should fine the Italian government for all its past illegal subsidies of ALITALIA, which are very well documented.

Why is the Greek government being forced to repay illegal subsidies to Olympic and not the Italians over ALITALIA?