From PPL(A) to FI - some pointers please

[Rishy]

Hi All,

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered in previous threads. I had a good search around last night but struggled to find what I'm looking for.

I'm currently 35 hours into my PPL and waiting for the great British weather to let me do my QXC. Upon passing I want to start to earn some sort of living from flying and see instructing as the best way to start. Depending on time and finances I'll see how far I get after qualifying as an FI but this, right now, is my goal. I currently work full time in a pretty well-paid job and right now I seem to have enough disposable income to finance my flying. I also have some savings and equity in my car that I would, if necessary, be prepared to sell.

Can people give me some guidance on what I do next? I mean, a definitive list of milestones please, that will really help me out. I have a general idea but if somebody can detail each step I'd be very grateful.

Cheers

Tim

[JohnGV]

1)Night Rating
2)CPL plus mayb consider ur atpls first??
3)multi/IR (this not essential for FI obviosly) can be done alongside cpl
4)FI rating

U cant b FI until completin these (apart from multi/IR)

[Re-Heat]

John - can you write in proper English - I cannot understand half of what you are saying, particularly on the other thread

[Shunter]

Fastest way to FI: PPL, build 200hrs TT, CPL exams, FI rating.

Fastest way to FI so you can be paid: PPL, Night, hour build, CPL exams, CPL, FI

Most common way to FI with airline career in mind: PPL, Night, hour build, ATPL exams, CPL, FI. Then make damn sure you get your ME/IR done and issued before your exams expire!

If you don't want to be an airline pilot, DO NOT bother with the ATPL exams. It's extra work for no benefit.

[Romeo India Xray]

You do not need a CPL to take your FI but you do need the 200 hours and having passed the CPL theory exams. That said you will need a minimum of a CPL if you wish to be paid for your instructing.

You will need to take a pre-entry flight test before starting the instructor course, and have completed at least 5 hours flying in the 6 months before that test. Also you will need to have completed 20 hours of cross country flight including at least one long (540km XC).

There is also no official requirement for a night rating although I cant remember hearing of an instructor who didn't have one (certainly not in my neck of the woods).

RIX

[MIKECR]

Rishy,

Movements are afoot to remove the CPL requirement for FI's. As it stands at the moment you still need to complete the CPL or ATPL theory exams but that will hopefuly be removed before long.

It is really geared towards the PPL who wants instruct for the long term, rather than the airline hours builder.

If however you wanted to move onto airline's at a later time then you will have to do ATPL's etc.

[Shunter]

There is also no official requirement for a night rating

Not for a PPL/FI, no. You cannot however gain a CPL without completing the Night Qual training at some point.

[Romeo India Xray]

Quite right.

It all depends on the context with which an Instructor rating will be required and used.

[Rishy]

Hi Mike,

Do you have any idea as to when this may happen? Can you point me in the direction of some info on the web?

Cheers

Tim

[MIKECR]

Its still(I think!) at the EASA proposals stage just now so nothing cast in stone as yet. If things have moved further towards finalisation then somebody im sure will correct me. I think we're probably still looking a year or 2 away yet though. If you have google EASA part-FCL 2008-17b at FCL.205.A PPL(A) you might find the finer details of the proposals.

[Mickey Kaye]

I would simply do PPL then the FI course. Keep your day job and instruct at the weekends. Although this would be unpaid the few quid that you would get from instucting doesn't warrant the signifcant time and expense of obtaining a CPL.

The airline pilot market going to be pretty dead for the next 4 years or so. But when it does picks up you will have a few thousend hours under you belt and you will find the CPL a lot easier.

Also in the future there is the added bonus that they may well allow renumeration for instructing with a PPL.

Also it is possible to pick up a few hours here and there (when picking up dropping off aircraft) with a fellow instructor which can be used towards your night and IMC ratings.

I used instruct and never held a night rating (although I do on a FAA PPL)

[JohnGV]

Well things are different here in canada, you cant be a FI unless you are a commercial pilot.

Also, I have to say, I wouldnt want to be instructed by a mere PPL (im a PPL by the way so dont take offence other ppls!) Id only want instruction off a proffesional, fully commercially trained pilot + How much would it cost to insure yourself as a mere PPL instructor - i`d imagine loads and loads and loads, also i doubt any flyin club would rent you a plane if you were goin to instruct somebody in there aircraft!

Re-heat,

I`ll write how ever i like so go and annoy someone else you stupid little person!

For the benefit of you, in this one thread, ive written properly, so your simple brain can understand my short hand computer type!

[Whirlygig]

Is a CPL really that much a greater expense? If you have to hour build to 200 hours (250 for rotary) anyway, why not use that time with an instructor and get the CPL course?

Cheers

Whirls



JohnGV, of course my dear, you write however you want. It's just that you might not earn any respect for your comments and opinions if they're in nerdy textspeak!

[JohnGV]

u know wat squirly poo or wat ever your name is, lol only jokin, I dont care bout gettin respect, I'm not to fussed on what any other argumentative little fuss pot thinks of me on here,

It gets my message across and its quick

It really aint that it hard to understand now is it??

Ahhh really!!!

[Rishy]

Thanks for all the responses people, much appreciated.

Because I'm keen to become an FI as a career, if only part-time, then I'm going to need my CPL. Like Whirls said, why not use the time I'll be building to put towards the CPL? My aim is to fly as a career, not a hobby.

One other thing: if I decide to do my CPL ground exams instead of the ATPL exams (which is likely), am I able to do the additional exams to convert the CPL to ATPL?

Tim

[JohnGV]

yes you are. But you wont be able to get the frozen atpl if you dont get your atpl and cpl done within 18 months of starting the first exam, or something like that

im sure ill be corrected by someone but thats the basic jist of it mate

Which means if you dont get the frozen, youl have to accrue loads of hours before being considered employable by an airline. again, im sure some1 will attack this post and try and correct me in some way, but thats the basic jist again.

[Hamish 123]

John, here's a correction. "Jist" should be spelt "gist".

The point about punctuation and grammer are that they provide common rules to ease understanding of the written and spoken word. It probably takes you longer to put together your crappy text-speak bollox than writing things properly.

And then people might be able to read your comments without wondering at the imbecility of that mode of communication.

Undrstnd m8?

[Shunter]

Errr......

[Whirlygig]

if I decide to do my CPL ground exams instead of the ATPL exams (which is likely), am I able to do the additional exams to convert the CPL to ATPL?

yes you are. But you wont be able to get the frozen atpl if you dont get your atpl and cpl done within 18 months of starting the first exam, or something like that

No, you're not able to do the additional exams. If your long term aim is to get an ATPL licence, then you need to sit ATPL exams, not CPL exams with IR exams; they are not equivalent in the eyes of JAA.

If however, you only want a CPL/IR licence, then CPL and IR exams will be sufficient. However, you would not be able to fly multi-crew.

Cheers

Whirls

[flyinho]

Crikey, it's getting bitchy on here!

Interesting thread though, I too am in a similar situation and would very much like to continue into FI once I have my PPL (which should be in about 3 weeks).

Does anyone think it's a good idea to do an IMC rating after PPL, or is the cash better spent later on on a proper IR??:confused:

P.S. I hope my grammar is up to scratch!!!!!!!!

[JohnGV]

Haha flyinho,

too right, you have to make sure you use proper english on here apparently!?

Whirls,

YES, you can do your atpl exams after your CPL. What are you talking about. It may make sense to do your ATPL's first but theres nothin at all stopping you from doing these later down the line!!!!

You can!!!

[Whirlygig]

JohnGV, the original poster asked if he could do the additional exams after CPL for ATPL and you said "yes". The answer is "no".

ATPL ground exams are not additional exams, they are a completely different set of exams. THAT is what I am talking about!

This is one reason why one needs to be reasonably accurate in ones use of English.

Cheers

Whirls

[JohnGV]

Whirlygig,

What ADDITIONAL exams do you think he was tlkin about then????!!!!!!

I would say he ment ATPLs by that!! correct me if im wrong Rishy?!

You seem to resort back to my Imbecile txt chat post just for the sake to add weight to your pointless argument- what did that have anythin to do with the subject at hand! PRAT!

You were wrong, simple!

[Philpaz]

So if you sit your ATPL exams how long do you have to pass the CPL/IR/ME/MCC, also once youve passed all those how long do you have to unfreeze the ATPL. I believe you have to do so many hours multi crew before unfreezing, obviously you aren't going to get these instructing, so what are the consequences of not unfreezing in time?

Cheers,

Phil

[Mungo Man]

Although this would be unpaid the few quid that you would get from instucting doesn't warrant the signifcant time and expense of obtaining a CPL.


The 'few quid' you'd get paid for instructing would cover the cost of the CPL in about 8 months. Hardly insignificant. The CPL module is only about £6,000 and can be done in under 2 weeks weather permitting. A must in my oppinion and I was in your position once Rishy. Imagine if a guy wanders in and asks if any of you instructors fancy ferrying a twin or somehing, anything, and you have to decline because you don't have a CPL....

Rishy, I also considered doing only CPL exams, but my understanding was that they were almost as most work as the ATPL exams and that if there was any chance at all that I might need the ATPL exams in the future then I should do them straight off. There is a lot of work involved but not as much as doing the CPL exams one year and then the full ATPLS later. That would be a real pain.

Phil, once you've apssed your ATPL theory there is no time limit for gaining your CPL or MCC or ME rating, BUT, you have 36 months to gain you IR before your exam credits expire. And once you have your IR you then have 7 years of validity from your last IR renewal so basically once you've got a froxen ATPL your're fairly safe.

Its all in LASORS chaps, download a copy here
LASORS: LASORS 2008 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=90&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

[Celtic Pilot]

can I ask that if your ATPL exams does expire but you have a cpl with no IR, do you have to repeat all of the 14 exams again or just the extra four for ATPL (think its four not sure)... just wondering a hypothetical situation..

[MIKECR]

Not sure where your getting the 'extra 4 for ATPL' from but the bottom line is this:-

Once you've passed the 14 atpl's, you have 3 years to complete the CPL and IR. If you fail to complete the IR within those 3 years then you will lose the ATPL privilages. There is no option but to do all 14 exams again.

Assuming you complete everything within the 3 years then you need to keep(to keep the frozen atpl current) the IR valid, or again, you will lose all 14 atpl privilages. To keep the IR valid you have to renew it every year 7 years. To excersie the privilages of it however you have to do an annual renewal flight test.

Hope thats of some help.

[Celtic Pilot]

Thanks MikeCR, not sure where i heard something about 4 exams... forgive me...

Thats great, so the key is to keep IR valid.. Thanks again

[MIKECR]

Yep, you have to apply to renew it every 7 years. Bare in mind though to excersise the privilages of the IR, you have to do an annual test. For the purposes of any job application, you really need to make sure its current and your up to speed, as IR skills deteriote quite quickly. Any Type Rating course will also require you to have the IR current.

[Celtic Pilot]

ah right,,, thats a great help... thanks..

p.s Does it cost much to keep it current every year,,, Just 'a ball park' figure..

[MIKECR]

It can be pricey, depending on which year it is. The first renewal can be done in the sim but the second renewal must be done in the actual aircraft. It alternates annualy thereafter. Sim time(£100 to 150 and hour) is obviously significantly cheaper than a multi piston at £350 to £400 an hour!!

There is also the examiner fee to add to the cost. Some charge more than others but roughly £150 to £200 as a ballpark fee. The aircaft or sim hire, is obviously on top of that.

[Celtic Pilot]

Thanks for your information and advice MIKECR...

Much appreciated.....

Thats a great help...

All the best!!!

[Rishy]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the comments, including the bitchy ones, they're breaking up another dull day in the office :ugh:

I think I need to plump for the ATPL exams - if the additional work is only marginal, relatively speaking, then I might as well go for that. To clarify, I wondered if it was possible to take the additional exams (on top of the CPL ones) but Whirls has cleared that up - they are completely different.

Right, Class 1 medical checkup here I come. Fingers crossed....

Tim

[Whirlygig]

What ADDITIONAL exams do you think he was tlkin about then????!!!!!!
The IR exams. CPL exams plus IR exams do not equal ATPL exams.

Cheers

Whirls

[Nashers]

according to LASORS, yes you will be able to "top up" the exams as JohnGV says. however the CAA's idea of top up is to reduce the minimum classroom hours you need down to about 350 or 200 hours and credit you the IFR/ VFR comms exam if you have got a cpl/IR already. all the other exams will have to be done (all 12 of them). if you only have a cpl and want to get an IR for an ATPL, they will reduce hours and credit you VFR comms only.

in essence, wirlygig ir correct.