Booking out

[bern444]

At the flying club we've been successfully using e-allocator for years, and now plan to computerise our flight logging sheets. We could use Excel, but there are too many computer "experts" in the club to leave such a thing around. So I'm writing a web-based one. There'll be no more Tippexed paperwork in our clubhouse!

Something we can't find out is what legally we need to keep on paper in the way of booking out. We will keep basic stuff on paper anyway, so that you can quickly see who has gone where and when, and what defects the machinery has, but we can't find out what we HAVE to have.

Please can anyone point me at an appropriate bit of LASORS, or whatever?

thanks

Bernie

[jammydonut]

What do you do during a power failure or other PC malfunction ?
I would guess you will still end up with a paper printout.

[Spitoon]

For the UK, try rule 17 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 and any additional local requirements set out in the aerodrome data in the AIP.

[bern444]

Thanks - I'll look it up.

As far as power failure is concerned, we can default to paper. As the system is web based, it will be easily possible to input the info from elsewhere, but we're going to make it difficult to do, as we know that people will forget as soon as they are off-site.

We're hoping that doing it this way will make admin much easier, as everything will be in a database at a data centre, with no Tippexed paper sheets, and easy transfer to a spreadsheet for company records and the VAT man etc. If it works out well, maybe I should try renting it out, like e-allocator. And its much prettier than e-allocator....

B

[bern444]

...actually -

(2) The commander of an aircraft arriving at or departing from an aerodrome in the United Kingdom shall take all reasonable steps to ensure, upon landing or prior to departure, as the case may be, that the person in charge of the aerodrome or the air traffic control unit or flight information service unit at the aerodrome is given notice of the landing or departure.

- it looks like the only rule is to tell the tower. Seems reasonable enough....

[Whopity]

Something we can't find out is what legally we need to keep on paper in the way of booking out

Haven't you heard of the Air Navigation Order. It lists all of the things you are legally required to do! http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
Re aircraft paperwork try also CAP520
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP520.PDF

[Spitoon]

- it looks like the only rule is to tell the tower. Seems reasonable enough....That's about it, but look out for additional rules that many airports have for purposes od extorting money from you. Also, you'll find differences in interpretation of what 'notice of the landing or departure' means.

Haven't you heard of the Air Navigation Order.FWIW, I don't think you'll find anything about booking out in the ANO. And CAP 520 addresses a completely different topic.

[Julian]

The booking out will probably just be a club require, in addition you will more than likely be required to book out 'formally' with the tower/ATC.

J.

[robin]

Sounds like 2 different issues here. Are you computerising both the tech logs and the booking out sheets?

In theory there is no issue with either being on a computer, but at our club we've just had a virus that stopped a lot of the recording for a few days. We defaulted to the paper-based system which, surprisingly, kept working when the computer didn't.

Looking back on it, for booking in and out, the computer was an expensive overhead. Pilots arrived or departed and queued to write in the booking out sheet, changed their minds about when they were going and where and who the pilot was. Oh, and half the pilots couldn't use a computer. :ugh::ugh:

Personally, my view, as a business systems analyst,is that this function should stay on paper.

I think too many people love the idea of working on systems for their personal pleasure and self-aggrandisement and fail to realise that paper-based systems work, and continue to work well. The fact is there is often no need for computerisation. Worse, the guy that does the work often moves on and the system becomes unsupported or the software used becomes obsolete.

In my group, for example 2 of the 4 members do not own a computer and one has never seen the Internet. So I don't see the need for e-bookings when our booking diary serves us well.

Still, if you do wish to go down that road, good luck to you. But, personally, I'd step away from doing it....:=

[bern444]

Yes, I take all of those points - I've built computer systems before, though I'm an amateur. I'm a great believer in paper in its place, and it may be that we'll go back to it, but It's a good exercise for me, and free to the club.

We seem to have all of our 100 or so members well domesticated with e-allocator these days. We had those discussions about people not being computer literate, but even our most senior members - in their late seventies - manage fine. And in the unlikely event of queues in the clubhouse, we can just add another computer - they are after all, easy to come by if you don't want new. The current one is 5 years old running OpenSuse.

So, when I finally finish, sometime in the next few weeks, we'll give it a try and see what happens. Those in the club who do the various admin jobs are looking forward to the figures arriving in a csv file, rather that Tippexed A3.

Oh, and this is just the booking sheets, not the tech logs, though if this is successful we'll certainly be looking at what we can change of the current system. But not yet.

B

[robin]

..but It's a good exercise for me, and free to the club.


Been there, done that, scars are healing nicely....:{

[bern444]

at our club we've just had a virus that stopped a lot of the recording

We've had a virus, too, in recent weeeks, which took me several hours to unravel - though the second time, same problem, it took just a few minutes. The person who I think was responsible doesn't seem to be around any more.

With that in mind, I'm making the system web based, and will have obscure URLs and other security measures to make it very difficult for ordinary members to get access outside the clubhouse. And the main terminal runs Linux with a Firefox kiosk front end. The backend is a MySQL database in a safe datacentre which routes through PHP and Flash to an easy to use front end for the user. I had the 75 year old giving it a go the other evening. He went through it without comment from me, and only did one surprising thing - put carriage returns in the defects box, which I've now sorted.

All in all, I'm reasonably encouraged so far. But we definitely will have a basic paper sheet as well - one for all the aircraft - because I don't trust computers either.

B

[Whopity]

FWIW, I don't think you'll find anything about booking out in the ANO.

Then its not a legal requirement! The question was "what was legally required"

[Spitoon]

Whopity, it is a legal requirement and I gave the precice reference in my first post - it's rule 17 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007.

If you think there is something relevant in the current Air Navigation Order please give us the reference and we can discuss. Of course, you may be making some assumptions about the content of CAP 393..... ;)

[First_Principal]

bern444, I'll be interested in your results. FWIW you might like to check out www.openflyers.org (http://www.openflyers.org) who have a similar system to what you're describing and which is already working with a number of additional features - it's PHP/MySQL based.

I've been doing some work with it and have implemented a system to replace a paper operation with excellent results. It took a few days for the dust to settle and quite a bit of customising the scripts/pages etc but after several months I don't think they'd go back. There is no longer a queue or search for the diary and most certainly no need for rubbers or twink so things are somewhat tidier :ok:

In this instance I've used an Ubuntu server with Windows client machines but openflyers also offer a hosted setup for those who don't want to mess with the backend. That said as it's an opensource project there's plenty of options to mess with it if you want! I've done so and contributed back to the project some of my changes so everyone benefits :)

[robin]

..any chance of that message appearing in English?.....:confused:

[bern444]

Well, my system has been running a month now, and seems to work well. Although we had a long run in with a trial system, we still had a few problems when we went live. One was me, and the others were people not being very sensible. All sorted now, and our 120 members seem to find it very easy to use.

It isn't graphical in the same way as the open fliers one above, but is intended to mimic the "fill in the boxes" sheet we used before. Because it's written in Flash/PHP/MySQL it's much prettier than the sheets, and there's no Tippex or maths errors. It helps by showing the last Hobbs reading, and offering lists of destinations and flight types that can just be clicked on, rather that written. The club members who look after aircraft engine hours and finance have custom csv file downloads for the various parts of the database that they need, which speeds up and simplifies their tasks enormously. I must admit I'm quite proud of it. I'll wait a few months to see how it shapes up before I start work on version 2. Maybe v3.5 will turn commercial....

Bernie