Aero's Gloucestershire - brink of going bust?

[thatscaptaintou]

I heard it through the rumour mill at Bristol GS, that up until they were purchased by the owner of Wellesbourne Flying School, Aero's were on the brink of going bust.

They are a pretty large organisation and it would surprise me, but as I intend to plough money into some training there in the near future, does anyone know if there is any truth in this and would it still be wise to continue with them?

[scooter boy]

Any flying school or light aircraft manufacturer are never far from bankruptcy. I would suspect that oil prices/credit crunch has had a knock-on effect on flight training.

Profit margins are small and regulations (CAA fees) and the cost of fuel make life increasingly expensive for UK based schools.
Equally many smaller airports are under threat from the planners and struggle to make ends meet.

I don't know about Aeros - I have heard good things about their operation but never flown with them.
I would put the question to them directly and if you have concerns simply pay as you go.

SB

[Pace]

Never but never pay large sums of money up front. I know of one young lad whos grandparents paid around £20,000 up front for flight training and the company then went bust. He lost the lot.

If you have to pay up front then insist the money is held in escrue and bled off as it is used or pay in small block payments.

To pay large sums of money up front is madness and asking for trouble without safeguards built into the deal and safeguards do not mean a smile and assurances from the company you are dealing with but a legal framework to protect your funds.

Pace

[S-Works]

I heard it through the rumour mill at Bristol GS, that up until they were purchased by the owner of Wellesbourne Flying School, Aero's were on the brink of going bust.

Is your post just mischief making?

Regardless of whether they may have been in that situation they are now owned and funded by a proven financially stable owner. So if they were on the edge he probably just got a keener deal.

Your question is about like saying the tyre on your car was flat and might have caused an accident if you had not blown it up......

[IO540]

Does any flying school put prepayments into a legal escrow account?

[xrayalpha]

Scooter Boy wrote:

"Any flying school or light aircraft manufacturer are never far from bankruptcy."

For your info, SB, you have just defamed me. Not that I am worried, but some of the 100 or so other flying schools in the UK might!

Phrases like "on the brink of" or "never far from" are - legally - actually just as bad as saying someone actually is bankrupt/bust etc when they are not.

Even a company/business which is trading at a loss need not be "on the brink".

As an example, my airfield, Strathaven, is trading at a substantial loss. It could hardly be otherwise since I have just spent the best part of 200k on a new hangar! (well, it could be otherwise if I had chosen to account for costs and borrowing in a different manner - ie I could have used the cash to subscribe for extra shares and then used the capital to pay for the hangar)

My flying school - Microlight Scotland and Sportflight Scotland - is trading profitably. Not big profits, but then that is not the plan since there is money to be made in aircraft syndicates, aircraft rental and aircraft hangarage. (since I won the airfield, I don't need to make all the money in the one area of training, as many flying schools have to) Many a mickle makes a muckle, as we say in Scotland!

Very best - and I agree with the other sentiments. Never, ever, pay substantial sums up front. And we don't offer escrow. We also don't take more than five hours up front - and that is only a gift voucher package. We also don't offer phoney buy 20 hours and get one free deals.

ps. Our Sept/Oct offer of a free half hour flight in a C42 to anyone with a Scottish residence and a pilot's licence, current or lapsed, has been a complete flop. Not one taker so far!

Not a sign of desperation, about to go bust or anything. Just want to give a select few a chance to see what the C42 is like, and to see what is happening at Strathaven - since many still fly right through our circuit!

[thatscaptaintou]

No it isn't bose, it was legit.

The reason I posted this question, was that I was in the same situation when I first started my PPL at Kemble. I was registered with Aero School Kemble which later on went bust. I didn't know it was in any sort of financial difficulty when I started (it's not the sort of thing you ask is it?) and I paid in 10 hour blocks. Luckily the CFI had established a new co. and took over and thankfully, the replacement club is a million times better and more stable.

Now that I have gone to Aeros, I don't want to find myself in the same situation, but I wonder if it was true that they were in financial trouble, does it leave a lot to be questioned of the company's management or have they simply been hit by the tough economic climate recently?

[Pace]

10540

How you pay someone depends on what you negotiate. My point is that to part with any large some of money for goods or services that you have not recieved is foolhardy and asking for trouble especially in the present climate.

I presume that people do this because they get a better deal paying up front but at least negotiate a form of protection for your funds as even the most prosperous looking companies take a dive.

There have been cases of pilots paying for bogus type ratings with 100 of hours line training promised and what they think they have bought never materialises.

There are students like the one I know who payed up front so that he could become a professional pilot only to stand in line waiting to see what money he could get back after the recievers moved in.

There is even a prominant businessman who I fly in jets who block purchased £35 K up front for hours on a business jet the money never came back and he has been drip fed a few flights every time he threatens to go to court.

So we can all be talked into it with a smile, a cup of coffee and a few fancy brochures beware!!!

Pace

[S-Works]

Sorry, but you still missed my point which is why I asked if you were mischief making. Whether or not they 'were' on the brink is a moot point as they have now been taken over by another organisation which according to the press is extremely well funded and run by a man who seems to have an ability to make money.

Therefore what purpose does your question about the past serve towards the future other than being interpreted as mischief making?

And for the record, I have no connection whatsoever with them, never flown with them talked to them or even live the same side of the country.

Now if you are asking if your money is going to be safe with them as off today, you are not going to get an answer on a rumour network, try asking the company directly. If they are honest they will have nothing to hide.

And of course like everyone says time and time again. Keep the money in your own deposit account and pay as you go. The discounts are false economy and just a way of getting your money in their bank so they can earn your interest.


PACE - You missed the point of IO's question. If the money is put in escrow it cant be taken by the company or liquidators.

[Pace]

>PACE - You missed the point of IO's question. If the money is put in escrow it cant be taken by the company or liquidators.<

Bose I may have the wrong understanding not being a lawyer. I thought that placing funds in this way protected both parties ie that the flight organisation could only have funds paid to them on a drip basis as they supply goods and service to you, while as long as they were meeting their agreements with you, you cannot remove the funds and go elsewhere without just cause ie they are not supplying the goods or service as promised within reason.

If I have the wrong term then I am sure an agreement and placing the funds with an independant lawayer could cover the above.
Otherwise pay as you go as the small savings are not worth the risk in any situation.

My advice is not directed at Aeros who I have no knowlege of but advice I would give to anyone parting with money for goods or services they have not recieved in full.

So many people have been bitten in aviation in so many ways even by companies that appear on the surface to be genuine, honest and thriving.


Pace

[IO540]

If I was running a flying school, and I accepted block prepayments, I would not put the money into escrow because the whole point of getting a block of cash up front is that I can use it in my business! To reduce my overdraft, probably. Then if I go bust, the punters lose it, but hey they got a 10% discount in return for taking the risk :)

One could argue that even if an escrow account was used, the punter is more likely to continue training because he cannot have the money back. But I still don't think many schools will use escrow. I have never heard of one.

[Pace]

>I would not put the money into escrow because the whole point of getting a block of cash up front is that I can use it in my business! To reduce my overdraft, probably. Then if I go bust, the punters lose it, but hey they got a 10% discount in return for taking the risk <

That is the worrying bit! But equally if I am a prospective customer and they are in need of my business they may quote me a 20k deal at 18k paid up front.
I am sure they will not turn me away if I insist on that discount on condition the money is held in escrew or paid in block payements.

If they do then I take my business elsewhere which would indicate to me that they are either desperate for cash in their accounts in which case I am better off going elsewhere or they are so overwhelmed (unlikely) with business that they call the shots.

Anything but anything is up for negotiation deal hard enough and you will prob get the 18K deal on pay as you go.

Pace

[IO540]

Too risky IMHO.

You may not get on with the instructor(s).
You may discover the planes are wrecked.
You may discover the place is totally disorganised.

But you have to stay the course.

I wouldn't do it. Ever.

[dublinpilot]

That is the worrying bit! But equally if I am a prospective customer and they are in need of my business they may quote me a 20k deal at 18k paid up front.
I am sure they will not turn me away if I insist on that discount on condition the money is held in escrow or paid in block payments.

If they don't have your money upfront, than why give you an upfront discount? What's in it for them? It would seem that the only one benefiting is you (and the escrow company).

Anyway, I've never heard of any flight school using an escrow account. If this was your condition for a discount, then you are unlikely to get the discount anywhere, and would be back for paying as you go.

Bose-x's point is well made though. If the rumour is in relation to a possible historical situation, but is in no way connected with the current position, then why air it at all? The trouble with bankruptcy rumours is that they have a habit of being self fulfilling. A perfectly healthy and well run company can see a big drop off in new customers if false rumours are spread about it.

dp

ps. never pay up front, not just because of possible bankruptcy, but for other reasons like IO540 described.

[matspart3]

Don't listen to the rumours. Aeros was sold, the owner retired.

[Steve N]

If you are worried, pay with your credit card and you are covered. Aero's took them when I trained there.

Steve

[jez d]

The new owner of Aeros is Tom Dunn, who also owns Pilot Flight Training at Wellesbourne.

He is a very successful business man, albeit with only limited experience in the flight training business, but given he has a 5-year plan in place to acquire a total of 25 (yes, I did say 25) flight schools in the UK, you can be fairly sure that Aeros will not disappear overnight with your money.

That said, nothing is certain in the aviation training business, and in the current recession-threatened climate unless you are intending to undertake integrated training at Cabair, Oxford or FTE, then pay as you learn, not up front. If Aeros can't make it through these troubled times without having your money up front, then the writing is on the wall not just for them but for all UK commercial FTOs.

As far as the standard of training is concerned, then this is the last place you should be asking such questions. Visit the school, talk to the instructors, and more importantly, talk to the students.

Rgds, Jez

[IO540]

Interesting policy, buying up a load of schools.

If you run a big fleet of similar types, you can get big maintenance cost savings, by purchasing parts in numbers from the USA, mail order. Important on the type of old planes used for training.

[cblinton@blueyonder.]

I hangar with them and have my maintenance done by them, It was still there the other day i looked.:ooh:

[EGBKFLYER]

IO - the aircraft are not 'old'. They are 'pre-loved' or 'mature'...:}

[scooter boy]

"For your info, SB, you have just defamed me".

Sorry XA, I just had to pick myself up off the floor - I'd been rolling around laughing!

best defence for defamation = fair comment.


SB