Kiss Air

[Albert Hall]

Does anyone have further information about a new start-up for Summer 2009 called Kiss Air? Rumoured to be flying some 737-800s from Gatwick and Manchester and being set up by some ex-XL people, but don't know more than that. Just wondering if anyone knows proposed start dates, likelihood of it happening and how many aircraft they are expecting to have.

[sam dilly]

ships and rats spring to mind !

[G-STAW]

mmm seems interesting.....

its going to be very hard work for a startup to gain ground in the current climate, plus with the fuel prices etc... yadayadayada.

Hopefully we'll hear more from Kiss Air in the not too distant future,

thanks for the heads up...


G-STAW

[Barnaby the Bear]

And yet it is forecast that EZY and RYN could record record profits next year as the fuel prices may dip to $100 a barrel.
Is this so called fuel problem just clearing out the weaklings?
If it is true. Good luck to them! :ok:

[luvly jubbly]

Is this the same Kiss Air from 2001????

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/kiss-air-insists-it-is-on-course-despite-confusion-over-licence-704272.html

[ryansf]

It'll probably start at the same time as Fly'em from Doncaster... :rolleyes:

[globetrotter79]

I very much doubt it is anything to do with the earlier proposed Kiss incarnation...can you honestly see anyone starting a new full service carrier at LHR right now?!

Rumour has it that this is a two B737 charter operation (one LGW and one MAN) for start Summer 2009...bear in mind that for such ops within Europe, you could easily park such an operation on an existing AOC of any EU member state airline, so any plan could easily be well advanced without any of the 'traditional' signs of a new operator starting (filing of application with CAA etc)

[loveJet]

for some-one who spent their time helping to set-up airlines across the region, he should be the first to know that now is not a good time... not ideal to launch an airline...

[Albert Hall]

Thanks - there doesn't seem to be any form of application in with the CAA for an AOC but I guess there's still time to do that for a start-up next Spring if they wanted to. Just intrigued to see how this goes. If it is indeed XL people as I was told, it is odd that this airline seems to be trying to win business from tour operators when XL is still going! No honour amongst those of a similar ilk, is there....

[charterguy]

If this is indeed a new airline set up by XL’s management, then it just shows how much confidence they have in their current airline !!??

According to the Travel Trade Gazette, XL had an operating loss of almost £24 million last year. It now transpires that Barclays have pulled XL’s fuel hedge finance. Couple that with the news that all of XL winter programme to the Carribean has been cancelled - it make you wonder what these “gentlemen” have in store for XL Airways ?? Sounds like a case of “raise the drawbridge – I’m in !”

Excel / XL were set up to cater for the independent travel trade and the model worked a treat. But now we have the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair selling seats at half of XL’s prices.

Shrewd business men know when to exit – hence Kiss Air :)

And no - it won't be a UK AOC :=

[transwede]

Anything to do with an airline who has operated and currently operates a few flights for the XL group with MD aircraft at present?:\

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
its going to be very hard work for a startup to gain ground in the current climate, plus with the fuel prices etc... yadayadayada.

Reply

It's not as bad as 'The Forum' is making out.

Alot of the talk is just 'Spin'

[Albert Hall]

It's not as bad as 'The Forum' is making out.

Alot of the talk is just 'Spin'

So is that what you'd say to anyone from Futura or Zoom who has just lost their job, or to the handling agent staff being made redundant around the UK every day? Idiot. :mad:

Back to the thread. Are we talking about Viking AOC and if so, how will they get the rights to fly to non-EU places from the UK?

[Hotel Mode]

So is that what you'd say to anyone from Futura or Zoom

He's not talking about Futura or Zoom, he's talking about XL. :ugh:

[globetrotter79]

I wonder whether we will hear more of this Kiss operation in the next week now that the market has changed somewhat and certain individuals have more time on their hands...

[Albert Hall]

Am told that it is indeed the Viking AOC with some of the former XL 737-800s and a lot of former XL people. Launch supposedly in the next two weeks.

The tone of the weekend press about XL means that they will have a field day with this one when it gets picked up.

[transwede]

Which tour companies passengers does this airline intend on flying?

[claireybaby]

Well, good luck to them if is becomes a success, im currently leaving the airline industry, simply becasue im moving, but was hoping to get back into the environment once im settled which i very much doubt now with the current climate, so best of luck guys! i shall keep my eyes and ears open! :)

[brabazon]

Kiss Flights is a dynamic young travel company offering an exciting programme of daily flights starting in summer 2009 to eleven of the most beautiful destinations in Europe from both Gatwick and Manchester Airports. The routes range from 7 wonderful Greek islands to Dalaman in Turkey. We are also offering the two best resorts in Egypt's Red Sea; Sharm el Sheikh and Hurghada with their large range of holiday activities including some of the best diving and windsurfing in the world for you to enjoy! We also offer flights to the popular Canary island of Lanzarote which offers year round sunshine and some of the best holiday beaches in Europe. We’ve chosen these popular destinations in Egypt the Canary Islands and Eastern Mediterranean to ensure you, our customers have the most enjoyable holidays possible.

Delivering a safe, reliable and comfortable service to our customers is a key priority, and for peace of mind, we are fully ATOL bonded. Most flights will be on new Boeing 737-800s offering a high level of comfort.

The Kiss team have many years of outstanding experience in the travel industry, up-to-the-minute market knowledge and quite simply, a passion for travel!

We are here to serve you.

So who's behind this "new" venture?

[Rainboe]

Good timing guys! Wall Street and World stock market crash, high interest rates and BIG unemployment! You will go far (not).

[MARTAND001]

Totally unbelievable!!! - the timings classic!.

[Richard Taylor]

These are Cra-zy, Cra-zy, Cra-zy, Cra-zy flights...

[pwalhx]

Would this be the same Kiss Air there is already a thread about and rumoured to be being set up by ex XL people?

[CentreFix25]

Viking Airlines is a new airline which started operations in May 2003 operating charter flights on behalf of a number of Tour Operators in the Mediterranean. In summer 2009 Boeing 737-800s will be added to the fleet, and the airline is going to fly from London Gatwick and Manchester to 11 beautiful destinations in the Mediterranean, Canary Islands and Egypt.

Flights operated by Viking with a couple of -800s (branded 'Kiss') by the looks of it.

[claireybaby]

Good Luck to them i say! :)

[leisurelad]

Well Well Well,

Site looks very similar as the old XL one, i reckon it must be the guys who were behind Freedom Flights. As an agent, freedom flights are something similar is very much needed in the UK Leisure market, they will start with the usual gatwick and macnhester routes then will expand from there i reckon. Glad to see them back, they were great at what they did, lets just hope that Viking continue who will be operating the flights.

Good Luck Kiss Guys and Girls, glad someone will be back in the market to serve the independant agents, very much needed than the rip off big two.

Welcome Back

[toledoashley]

I also as an Independant Travel Agent am really please - I will be signing up tomorrow. Its good news for all the small tour ops who relied on the XL flights like Mark Warner.

[spinnaker]

Anyone know who the directors are?

[Albert Hall]

The Kiss team have many years of outstanding experience in the travel industry, up-to-the-minute market knowledge

Indisputably true. If what I am told is correct, this is the former XL people who were planning this set-up before XL ceased. Many years of outstanding experience and up-to-the-minute market knowledge which could not possibly have been matched by anyone else! How on earth are they allowed to get away with it so quickly?

[TartinTon]

"Good Luck Kiss Guys and Girls, glad someone will be back in the market to serve the independant agents, very much needed than the rip off big two."

"I also as an Independant Travel Agent am really please - I will be signing up tomorrow. Its good news for all the small tour ops who relied on the XL flights like Mark Warner."

What the hell is the matter with you 2? This company has just stranded thousands of people across the world due to mis-management and you're running to help the same people do it again!!! :=:=:=

You sum up everything that is wrong with the travel trade. Thank god for the internet so I can avoid having to use idiots like you 2.

[just_registered]

Ambassador=>Air Ops=>Peach=>Caledonian=>Sabre=>Excel=>XL=>Kiss

this is classic PW Modus Operandi :rolleyes:

start something, trade on the edge, build it up, try and smarten it up, find sugar daddy, continue to polish the particular turd till you either get out or as in the recent case it goes Tits Up then start again.

Whatever it might say on the outside, it's rotten to the core.

Kiss flights/airways has been registered as a company by an associate of PW.

The commercial director of freedom flights was 'sent' there a while ago

I'm guessing the commercial sales vehicle will be one of PW's other side companies, probably Meridian, run by his mate, who employed the old XL accounts guy recently.

it stinks, stinks, stinks, and if he ever has the neck to come out and front this up he could get lynched by the media.

to those who have lost their jobs who will not get into the new venture because they are not part of the same old inner circle who sold themselves to the devil years ago - you have my utmost sympathy.

[harrogate]

There's nothing wrong with the timing of this.

It stands as good a chance as any of success, and it won't have been exposed to the crap some of their soon-to-be peers have been over the past 18 months.

Good luck. Hope it works out. No reason why it shouldn't, despite what those who get their business acumen from ITN and the markets page of The Sun might think.

[toledoashley]

Im just expressing that the travel industry needs a independent charter airline. We cannot just survive with the big boys (TOM/TCX), just a few years ago we had Scandic, XL, Flying Colours, Caledonian etc. I agree though, it need to be well run to survive in this climate.

[Albert Hall]

Air Ops=>Peach=>Caledonian=>Sabre=>Excel=>XL=>Kiss

You missed out Ambassador at the start of that list.

I feel desperately sorry for the people who have lost their jobs from XL at the hands of this mob. Surely the travel industry must be able to see through this charade?

[UFGBOY]

H/o 7th Floor Norfolk House Lgw

Vkg Director Is Jw Brother Of Pw............

[compac]

I'm guessing the commercial sales vehicle will be one of PW's other side companies, probably Meridian, run by his mate, who employed the old XL accounts guy recently.

Make of this what you will, but guess who holds the ATOL (9853)...

Company Name:
Meridian Aviation UK Ltd
ATOL Number: 9853 Address:






Trading Names:
7th floor
Norfolk House
South Terminal
London Gatwick Airport
GATWICK, W Sussex,
RH6 0NN

Kiss Flights

ATOL Search Results | ATOL (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=490&pagetype=65&appid=2&mode=detailnosummary&atolNbr=9853)

[G-STAW]

some of you seen to talk as if you've seen a website online?if so, can someone tell me it.

thankyou

G-STAW

[rumair999]

you cant post on here but its clear and ends in .com iso co.uk !!!

[just_registered]

Albert - thanks forgot "AMY" and have updated my list

another interesting Meridian Aviation anecdote, its run by PW's mate, AC, who also got all the XL Air Malta business via his door, and its just employed the wife of one of the XL directors. Its also been hoovering up former XL flights for some of the independent tour operators

will all the armchair numpties stop saying this is good news, you dont know what it means to be shafted by this shower

[Picasa]

How many of those aircraft brought in to repat a few thousand of the stranded XL passengers were brokered by Meridian?:oh:

[leisurelad]

Tartin Ton -

Firstly, im no muppet as you put it (i have 12yrs experience within travel, 7 of which was in aviation so im not stupid in any sense) and secondly just shows how little you understand the needs of the market for agents.

Why should agents/customers have to pay sometimes the price of a complete package with the big two when all they want is the flight segment so they can enable the customer to have a choice of accommodation that they choose.

PW and gang looks as though they are going back to what they probably do best. After goldcrest/inspirations got swallowed up by the merger of Caledonian and Thomas Cook it wasm't long before Freedom came about which im sure had some input by the W brothers. Freedom flights did great when they were small and they were great up until the collapse of XL. It wouldn't be suprising to see that the Freedom part of the XL group actually did very well, it was all the other factors that come with an airline that has pulled them down and everything else with it.

I admit that the timing has come at the best of times especially so soon after, but when would of been a good time. These guys are moneymakers and quite often it will be in it for themselves but that is no different to any other businessman, its all about the money.

I do feel sorry fot all those customers standed and the staff who are now unemployed but i have been in the same situation twice before so i do know how it feels when the job you love is taken from you like that.

As i say, Kiss Air will be welcomed by trade, it is needed and no doubt will do very well. Really, all they are doing is selling seats to the trade, and not having to to run the day to day operation of an airline. If they weren't to do it then im sure someone would because it is NEEDED.

[just_registered]

As i say, Kiss Air will be welcomed by trade, it is needed and no doubt will do very well. Really, all they are doing is selling seats to the trade, and not having to to run the day to day operation of an airline. If they weren't to do it then im sure someone would because it is NEEDED

if youre believing what they tell you then you've been sucked in, or you work for them or are hoping to...

they will be having to run the day to day operation of the airline, Viking is another puppet company that will do exactly what PW says. Ask any of the former ops controllers at XL who are signing on the dole this week about how many of their decisions were totally undermined again and again and again by vested interest or micro management.

An independent low-cost high quality charter outfit is needed, the trouble is, not run by someone who destroyed 1700 families lives last week.

[leisurelad]

I have no intention of working for them but no doubt will use them for our clients like so many other agents will do.

Viking no doubt will jump to what they want them to do as its business for them but it is Viking who will do the day to day running. KissAir is purely a seller of seats to the trade, they are not an airline themselves.

Maybe he shouldn't be involved but there were or are alot of companys that all had some kind of input by the W brothers and i'm sure they will allways have their fingers in the pies for many years to come in aviation.

It is sad that so many good people have lost their jobs, been there myself and it is hard but when one company goes, quite often another appears and quite often with the same management behind it.

[Picasa]

Guys

I would have imagined that the people at Kiss would have anticipated these outbursts and they will come as no shock to them, and i very much doubt any of this will do their cause any harm in the long run, something else they will be aware of.

You'll never ever beat or get the better of people like this, not that i'm suggesting we all roll over and die - But i expect these outbursts make everyone feel that little bit better.

Good luck to all the guys at XL, you deserved better....:D

[G-CPTN]

Chequered history of bust airline's boss | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23554958-details/Chequered+history+of+bust+airline%27s+boss/article.do)

[SLF-Flyer]

Are you all talking about Kiss Air or Kiss Airways. Both are registered at Companies House and the address and directors listed, is the same for both. Muddy waters?

THE HOGARTH GROUP
1A AIREDALE AVENUE
LONDON
W4 2NW

[G-CPTN]

And Kissflight . . .

[NCL1]

I don't undertand what this company is... are they just selling flight for other airlines or an airline aswell?! :bored:

[Ms Spurtle]

I don't undertand what this company is

Well you know when you pay £5000 for double glazing.. and then the glazing company goes bust.. and you lose your money.. and two weeks later the same glazing company is back with a new name.

This is the airline version.

[NG1]

According to their website they plan to operate as follows:

A/C 1
1 LGW CFU LGW DLM LGW
2 LGW HER LGW
3 LGW PFO LGW
4 LGW ACE LGW SSH LGW
5 LGW DLM LGW HRG LGW
6 LGW EFL LGW SSH LGW
7 LGW ZTH LGW KLX LGW

A/C 2
1 MAN CFU MAN DLM CFU
2 MAN HER MAN SSH MAN
3 MAN KGS MAN PFO MAN
4 MAN SSH MAN
5 MAN HRG MAN
6 MAN EFL MAN SSH MAN
7 MAN ZTH MAN PFO MAN

[leisurelad]

Whilst i am glad that there will another seat only operator for the trade i just hope that the aircraft behave themselves.
Looking at the schedule below, its making good use of the amount of hours in a day with little down time on some days. Some long sectors in there with the egypt flights.

I am wondering if they are likely to be having a 737-800 based in crete/athens at all that could come to the rescue should you get problems as quite often with the crew hours soo tight on egypt flights, an hour or two delay and your in trouble unless you have backup.

Good Luck to them, hope they will pull it all off.

[boredcounter]

'I am wondering if they are likely to be having a 737-800 based in crete/athens at all that could come to the rescue should you get problems as quite often with the crew hours soo tight on egypt flights, an hour or two delay and your in trouble unless you have backup.'


You are joking right?

[dc9-32]

PW will make this work on a shoe string. Crew salaries will be lower too. And I'm assuming the aircraft will be SX registered under Vikings AOC which no doubt means cheaper ops staff too.

Quite how PW is getting away with this I don't know. My opinion of him has changed somewhat since the days of working with him :ooh:

[spinnaker]

How do we know that PW is getting away with what?

Not saying he is, or isn't, just asking the question.

[dc9-32]

When I say "getting away with this" I mean, one minute he is the accountable manager for a company that has folded owing huge amounts of money, laying off thousands of employees etc and then the next minute is clearly involved in Kiss.

Almost hear it now in the back ground "Kiss my @rse" :=

[Buster the Bear]

More detail here;

New Kiss boss Moss quashes Wyatt rumours - Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1264480&articleTitle=New%20Kiss%20boss%20Moss%20quashes%20Wyatt%20ru mours)

[spinnaker]

A rather extraordinary press release. You don't see many like that on the launch of a new company.

[ondadole]

hmmm...so PW has nothing to do with Kiss eh !! Well an ex-colleague of mine at LGW base has told me a certain Mr PW was driving around in a new Porsche recently....reg K155 XLA !!! that's b*lls for you !!!:mad::mad:

[LoneWolf75]

I can second that car registration....I'm sure he's had that since the beginning of this summer !!!!

[ArtfulDodger]

Guys

The only joy you have on that note is that it's probably completely worthless now and wouldn't reach the price already paid for it. :{

[IB4138]

Its called Kiss Flights, not Kiss Air.

The connection to Meridian Aviation UK Ltd and Viking Airlines is fully explained on the Kissflights web site in the "about us" section.

[Picasa]

IB4138

I think you may be missing the point that everyone is trying to make, and that is although Kiss have tried to explain the connections no-one actually believes any of it, and the cynics on here would believe that cetain people are pulling the strings from behind the scenes despite fierce denials.

But you make your own mind up

[greatoaks]

Change the web template colour scheme from purple to blue and 'low and behold' we have a 'deadringer' for the old XL website even down to some of the wording that appears to have been copied enblock from the old site .

F**ckin Stinks........

[IB4138]

Picasa

As most people who have posted keep referring to Kiss Air, as the thread is titled, which is incorrect and as a web site exists in that name, it is misleading, a point had to be made.

If the name can be got wrong on the rumour network, what else is guess work and without substance?

I can see both sides here, having been there before.

[Albert Hall]

IB4138 - I think you are missing a very important point. This thread was started on 6 September about rumours of a new start-up. XL Airways was still flying and didn't actually stop flying until 12 September! Although the thread title was slightly off the mark, IMHO the fact that the initial rumour has now been proven to be so close to the mark (with a start-up from LGW and MAN with a lot of XXL people involved), I think the questions being asked about this scheme (or should I say scam) are 100% justified.

Charterguy - I can't wait.

[ArtfulDodger]

Guys

There's one thing to be said.

If there wasn't a huge gap in the market that allowed new start-ups like this to initially succeed, then projects like Kiss Flights wouldn't gain any ground like XL / Freedom Flights etc before it. The people that repeatedly create these companies in our market clearly think that it's worth it, and before they go belly up personally make mucho dinero in the meantime.

Do you agree that the big two now have a complete stranglehold on the market again and this leads to the creation of niche businesses by the opportunists out there? If rock bottom prices were already in place then the likes of Kiss Flights would flounder from day one.

AD

[ArtfulDodger]

Interesting to note that the domain lookup details of Kiss Flights for Agents (http://www.kissflights.com/) . . .




Whois Record

Domain Name.......... kissflights.com
Creation Date........ 2007-02-27
Registration Date.... 2007-02-27
Expiry Date.......... 2018-02-27
Organisation Name.... KISS AIRWAYS LIMITED
Organisation Address. THE HOGARTH GROUP, 1A AIREDALE AVENUE
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. LONDON
Organisation Address. W4 2NW
Organisation Address. -
Organisation Address. GREAT BRITAIN (UK)

Admin Name........... CBS Registry
Admin Address........ Box 3396
Admin Address........
Admin Address........ Stockholm
Admin Address........ SE-103 68
Admin Address........ -
Admin Address........ SWEDEN
Admin Email.......... http://source.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=91a2e40d7c14dc0a991096e9a2cbd7e8&face=Atomic_Clock_Radio&size=7&color=000000&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format[]=transparent&face=Trebuchet&size=9&color=0000FF&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format[]=underline&format[]=transparent (http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?and[]=91a2e40d7c14dc0a991096e9a2cbd7e8)
Admin Phone.......... 46.855340200
Admin Fax............ 46.855340201

Tech Name............ CBS Registry
Tech Address......... Box 3396
Tech Address.........
Tech Address......... Stockholm
Tech Address......... SE-103 68
Tech Address......... -
Tech Address......... SWEDEN
Tech Email........... http://source.domaintools.com/email.pgif?md5=91a2e40d7c14dc0a991096e9a2cbd7e8&face=Atomic_Clock_Radio&size=7&color=000000&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format[]=transparent&face=Trebuchet&size=9&color=0000FF&bgcolor=FFFFFF&format[]=underline&format[]=transparent (http://www.domaintools.com/registrant-search/?and[]=91a2e40d7c14dc0a991096e9a2cbd7e8)
Tech Phone........... 46.855340200
Tech Fax............. 46.855340201
Name Server.......... ns.domainnetwork.se
Name Server.......... ns2.domainnetwork.se

[PPRuNe Pop]

Some of you are sailing close to the wind by breaking the PPRuNe rules you signed to uphold. This has resulted in some posts being removed and one person being banned.

Some also think that they can use PPRuNe to engage in personal vendettas. We mods are here to tell you that this will never be tolerated.

If you want to commit libel you should find another site to do it. PPRuNe is not about to open up for legal action so please stay away.

AA&R Mods

[loobysue]

I think it is terrible all the things that are now being disclosed about Mr Wyatt. I am one of the many who have lost a holiday due to XL, I paid on my debit card and have no chance of getting my cash back, I felt sorry for him at first but now after reading so many posts on here as a guest I am getting very mad, how do you get onto the kiss web site , it keeps coming up error when i try, i would like to see it for myself.

I realise from last post someone has been banned, so i will not go any further with my feeling regarding mr wyatt

[mdforever]

The same guy that is running Meridian is also on the board of Viking Airlines.....

There is a connection ?

[Ballymoss]

There is a connection ?

Connections abound but, unfortunately not up for discussion.....YET!

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[ArtfulDodger]

Kiss - quite hard to untangle so far.

We have a UK company based in LGW called Meridian Aviation (UK) Ltd, (listed now on the 7th Floor of Norfolk House) or Crawley Town Centre originally (but I think that’s a solicitor’s address off the High Street as I walked past that one).

The trading style of this company is called “Kiss Flights”, with a website at http://www.kissflights.com (http://www.kissflights.com/). Click on the Meridian Aviation link on the front page and you get this …..


Kiss Flights is a trading name of Meridian Aviation UK Ltd, a leading UK aviation broking firm who have been established for over 10 years.
www.meridian-aviation.co.uk (http://www.meridian-aviation.co.uk/)



Then you look at the domain registry details of kissflights.com (http://www.kissflights.com/) and find that their web site is hosted by a subsidiary of Sky, based in Brick Lane (but that’s just a hosting deal). However their website Admin contacts details listed are all based in Sweden with Swedish phone numbers.

This then links well with the fact that they are using Viking Airlines as a carrier, also a Swedish based company, or as some have stated there are even alleged closer links than that. The domain details, listed a few posts below, also show another link to a company in West London called “The Hogarth Group”, but also mentions a new name in the same detail list, "Kiss Airways Limited".

Do a search on Kiss Airways Limited, and one of the Google links takes you to the UK Intellectual Property Office, where there is an entry to register a Trade Mark under case number 2466440A. This was filed a year and a day before the XL Big Bang, on 11th September 2007.

This application lists goods and services offered as:

Airline services; operation of an airline; transportation of passengers by land, sea and air; aircraft seat broking; lease, hire and chartering of aircraft for passengers for leisure purposes; travel agency services; holiday tour operator services; arranging and organising of tours; car hire services; etc, etc, etc


Now what's a company into Leisure Centres (Squash Courts etc) got to do with Kiss Flights, Viking and Kiss Airways Limited leaves me at a loss for now.

Still searching though :hmm:

See the trade mark application here . . . http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=2466440A (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-find-number?detailsrequested=C&trademark=2466440A)

AD

[slramage]

On reading some of your discussions I see that references are being made to Freedom Flights.

I would like to clarify that the "Freedom Flights" referred to were based in Crawley and were part of the XL Group who are now in administration. The original freedom flights established in 1987 in Newcastle upon Tyne are still trading as normal and that no staff from the original Freedom Flights are involved with this new Kiss Flights venture.

Many thanks

[globetrotter79]

Does anyone know if these guys are actually on sale yet (obviously only agents sales possible via their current website and not public)?

I note that the CAA ATOL section (unless it has yet to be updated) shows them with zero numbers on their quoted ATOL number at present...so I assume that they're not yet selling?

[G-OSND]

I have been told by a good source that travel agent's have had memo's advising not to sell or advise on Kiss flights.. Wonder why?

[ArtfulDodger]

As featured on a Wikipedia page now . . . .

Kiss Flights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Flights)

[StevieW]

Well their booking system seems to suggest a very sparse 6-aircraft operation. I can only assume that it's either incomplete, or that some flights are being sold through other tour operators.


Mon LGW-CFU 0500 1010 VIK111 CFU-LGW 1110 1230 VIK112
Mon LGW-SSH 1355 2120 VIK113 SSH-LGW 2220 0155 VIK114
Mon LGW-DLM 1400 2010 VIK313 DLM-LGW 2110 2335 VIK314
Mon LGW-BJV 1735 2335 VIK315 BJV-LGW 0035 0245 VIK316

Tue LGW-CHQ 0500 1045 VIK325 CHQ-LGW 1145 1340 VIK326
Tue LGW-HER 0500 1055 VIK121 HER-LGW 1155 1400 VIK122
Tue LGW-TFS 0500 0915 VIK121 TFS-LGW 1005 1415 VIK122
Tue LGW-SSH 1515 2240 VIK123 SSH-LGW 2340 0315 VIK124

Wed LGW-RHO 0500 1055 VIK131 RHO-LGW 1145 1350 VIK132
Wed LGW-PFO 0700 1330 VIK333 PFO-LGW 1430 1715 VIK334

Thu LGW-ACE 0500 0905 VIK343 ACE-LGW 1005 1410 VIK344
Thu LGW-SSH 1430 2155 VIK143 SSH-LGW 2255 0230 VIK144

Fri LGW-HRG 1000 1730 VIK353 HRG-LGW 1830 2210 VIK354
Fri LGW-TFS 1300 1715 VIK900 TFS-LGW 1815 2230 VIK901
Fri LGW-DLM 1730 2340 VIK153 DLM-LGW 0040 0305 VIK154

Sat LGW-EFL 0500 1025 VIK363 EFL-LGW 1140 1305 VIK364
Sat LGW-KLX 0600 1135 VIK161 KLX-LGW 1235 1415 VIK162
Sat LGW-SSH 1430 2155 VIK365 SSH-LGW 2255 0230 VIK366
Sat LGW-KGS 1530 2125 VIK163 KGS-LGW 2225 0030 VIK164

Sun LGW-ZTH 0500 1025 VIK373 ZTH-LGW 1125 1255 VIK374
Sun LGW-SSH 1350 2115 VIK173 SSH-LGW 2215 0150 VIK174
Sun LGW-PFO 1400 2030 VIK375 PFO-LGW 2130 0015 VIK376



Mon MAN-CFU 0615 1140 VIK415 CFU-MAN 1240 1345 VIK416
Mon MAN-DLM 1500 2115 VIK417 DLM-MAN 2215 0050 VIK418

Tue MAN-TFS 0500 0930 VIK425 TFS-MAN 1030 1500 VIK426
Tue MAN-HER 0500 1100 VIK223 HER-MAN 1200 1415 VIK224
Tue MAN-SSH 1515 2240 VIK225 SSH-MAN 2340 0325 VIK226

Wed MAN-RHO 0500 1110 VIK435 RHO-MAN 1210 1430 VIK436
Wed MAN-KGS 0500 1110 VIK233 KGS-MAN 1210 1430 VIK234
Wed MAN-PFO 1600 2250 VIK235 PFO-MAN 2350 0255 VIK236

Thu MAN-ACE 0500 0910 VIK445 ACE-MAN 1110 1410 VIK446
Thu MAN-SSH 1100 1825 VIK243 SSH-MAN 1925 2310 VIK244

Fri MAN-JSI 0700 1240 VIK455 JSI-MAN 1330 1645 VIK456
Fri MAN-HRG 1100 1845 VIK253 HRG-MAN 1945 2345 VIK254
Fri MAN-TFS 1315 1730 VIK902 TFS-MAN 1830 2245 VIK903
Fri MAN-DLM 1800 0020 VIK457 DLM-MAN 0120 0400 VIK458

Sat MAN-EFL 0500 1040 VIK263 EFL-MAN 1140 1325 VIK264
Sat MAN-KLX 0600 1150 VIK465 KLX-MAN 1250 1450 VIK466
Sat MAN-SSH 1435 2200 VIK265 SSH-MAN 2300 0245 VIK266
Sat MAN-KGS 1600 2210 VIK467 KGS-MAN 2310 0130 VIK468

Sun MAN-ZTH 0500 1040 VIK273 ZTH-MAN 1140 1330 VIK274
Sun MAN-PFO 0800 1430 VIK475 PFO-MAN 1520 1815 VIK476

Having said that, take out the TFS flights (notice the Tuesday flight from Gatwick seems to have the same flight number as the HER flight...) and it works out at 5 aircraft, but is still rather thin on some days.

[Spitfire boy]

New carrier to fill XL void?
A proportion of the capacity lost with the collapse of XL Leisure Group and its 21-strong airline fleet is likely to be filled by next summer.

The prospect was raised during a Question Time session at the ABTA Travel Convention by Chris Photi, a senior partner at White Hart Associates which advises travel companies on regulatory, licensing and bonding issues.

“Someone will come and provide the capacity, some are already gearing up to do that,” he told delegates.

His comments came as speculation mounted at the convention that a new carrier called Kiss Flights was being established by unnamed backers to fill the vacuum left with the failure of XL and its in-house carrier XL Airways.

While major tour operators have welcomed the capacity reduction resulting from the XL failure, many smaller tour firms with programmes particularly to Greece and the Geek islands have been left without aircraft availability for next summer.

XL Airways provided a large proportion of third party flying for a range of specialist operators, many who are now in a precarious position due to the absence of adequate air lift.

Industry sources at the convention in Gran Canaria suggested that the founders of Kiss Flights were attempting to acquire a small executive jet outfit in order to use its Air Operators Certificate to deploy a number of leased Boeing 737s from the UK for summer 2009.

by Phil Davies

Source:travelmole.com

[ArtfulDodger]

So off I go to MAN today from LGW on 27L on BA and what was standing down near Snowbase as we rotated but a parked up Viking Airlines MD83.

So my question is, if Kiss Flights capacity is talking of kicking off in 2009 what was a Viking plane doing sitting there in LGW costing a lot of money to park there already ??

AD

[merryment]

"Kiss Flights offers flights to the fashionable destinations made popular by switched on, fashion conscience and high tech travellers. Affordable, stylish and comfortable Kiss Flights is every jet setters wish."

The above is a cut/paste of pure cobblers is from the Kiss website meta data - the spelling mistake is all theirs.

The website now provides a registration form for Travel Agents so they can start booking with them. I wonder just how many of these forms get filled in. Personally, I wouldn't use one to wipe my ring.

[rumair999]

dont you have to have traffic rights to op DLM / SSH from UK ? how can SE regn aircraft op these routes....

[adz1616]

they can't it's against fifth freedom rules

[pwalhx]

As Sweden is a fellow EU member I believe they can operate from any EU airport or country

[Albert Hall]

An interesting question indeed. A non-EU airline can fly from the UK outside the EU if it has an established operation in the UK and if the foreign destination country chooses to accept these arrangements.

There is not a hope in hell of the Turkish authorities accepting a Swedish carrier to fly Gatwick-Dalaman. They have always protected their home airlines (more than UK PLC has done!) and will continue to do so. The Egyptians might let a Swedish airline fly Gatwick-Sharm if they are given enough cash to make them complicit.

If Kiss want to fly their full programme then they will either need to lease the aircraft into a UK AOC holder or get a UK AOC full stop. Rumours of Kiss buying the Markoss operation at Biggin Hill are probably not misplaced - it would be a useful flag of convenience.

The denials by Kiss of involvement by PW are just unbelievable. 99% of industry people will tell you that PW is involved if you did a quick survey to establish their views. No one, but no one, believes the stories being put about that he's not behind it. Two ex-XL people at Meridian Aviation is company but six is a crowd. As for the spelling mistakes - well, it was always ironic that the Icelandic people at XL could spell and use punctuation marks far more competently than the Brits.

[UFGBOY]

slots and flight times look very familiar and look like they were in the schedule pre 9/12.................


and it looks like 3 a/c Lgw and 2 Man...........

Ref UK/ NON EU OPS; AIR MALTA have operated to SSH ex MAN under KM flight numbers this year

[loobysue]

well co-op have just instructed shops and agents not to deal with Kiss

[greatoaks]

:D how sad

[cuerdley1989]

From a totally selfish point of view I am pleased that another operator is going to fly a MAN-HRG sector, because TCX have got a stranglehold on that route presently and can charge whatever they want. It was not surprising to see their prices raised as soon as XL went bump. Who can blame them? After all, business is business and they have grasped the opportunity.
We need to see someone other than TCX from Manchester. I own a property near Hurghada and am now having to travel to Gatwick (easyjet) or Glasgow (flyglobespan) to obtain reasonably priced flights. Even with fuel costs for my car, I am still saving up to £100/person.

[greatoaks]

Coop see sense though

The boss of The Co-operative Travel has pledged never to work with new seat-only start-up Kiss Flights, but other agents are considering striking deals.

Kiss directors, who previously worked for Freedom Flights before its parent XL Leisure Group went bust last month, were spotted
holding meetings with retailers at last week’s Travel Convention.

The sight prompted Co-op managing director Mike Greenacre to fume: “Under no circumstances will we do business with Kiss.

“The XL failure will cost £60-£80 million and anyone contemplating doing business with Kiss can be doing so only for some short-term benefit. There’s no long-term reason because other operators and airlines will fill the gap.”

Greenacre said he had made his position clear to Kiss after learning it had sent passwords and brochures to each of his retail divisions.

“I sent an abrupt email telling them to withdraw all passwords and that any bookings that had been made would not be paid for and should be cancelled,” he revealed.

Greenacre controls 550 agencies, 600 homeworkers and two call centres.

But TTA director Todd Carpenter said Greenacre’s criticism was “harsh” and revealed he had been in talks with Kiss since Michael Smith left Freedom Flights to set up the new company, several months before XL collapsed.

Advantage confirmed it had met with Moss but would consult members before signing a deal.

Commercial director Julia Lo Bue-Said said she understood Greenacre’s position, but added: “You have to keep personal and emotional feelings out of it and if Kiss fills a gap, such as to Sharm and the eastern Med, we need to look at it.”

Aito chairman Derek Moore added that his members were likely to set up commercial deals with Kiss, even if it “left a bit of a bad taste”.

On Holiday Group chief executive Steve Endacott reminded agents they had supported Peter Long, Manny Fontenla-Novoa and himself when they set up Sunworld three days after the collapse of ILG in 1991.

“I understand people’s pain but we need seats and I will be supporting Kiss all I can,” he said.

Kiss director Paul Moss declined to comment.

[paully]

Perhaps someone should tell Endacott that the era of greed is drawing, rapidly, to a close.:rolleyes: Seats are only useful if they are sustainable..

[greatoaks]

Meridian chiefs' £2.8m pay day


Two bosses of Meridian Aviation, a flight broker that was used by XL Leisure Group and which now also trades as Kiss Flights, were paid a total of £2.8 million last year.

Graham Rolph and Andre Cachia received £2,850,907 in “directors’ emoluments” in the year to the end of March 2008, according to accounts filed earlier this month at Companies House. The highest-paid director received £2,019,152.

The previous year, the two men were paid a total of £2,555,255, with the highest paid receiving £1,680,170. Rolph stopped being company secretary on August 13 this year.

According to the accounts, during the two financial years to March 31 this year, the company had two directors and one employee.

The payments to the highest-paid director made him among the biggest earners in the industry.

It would put him ahead of what Thomas Cook chief executive Manny Fontenla-Novoa stands to earn this year, whose £630,000 basic salary and potential 100% bonus could bring his package up to £1,260,000.

According to Meridian’s accounts, it made a pre-tax profit of £635,000 in the year to March 2008.


source: TTG Live

[RainbowChaser]

Not sure if this is relevant to this thread, but some of my friends who are 'ex XL' cabin crew are being contacted direct by Viking & being offered direct interviews for jobs starting in November - seems like a violation of data protection if their details have been passed on somehow without their knowledge..?

On the other hand, a job is a job etc, so good luck to those who do find new employment ....:hmm:

[just_registered]

Two bosses of Meridian Aviation, a flight broker that was used by XL Leisure Group and which now also trades as Kiss Flights, were paid a total of £2.8 million last year.

Graham Rolph and Andre Cachia received £2,850,907 in “directors’ emoluments” in the year to the end of March 2008, according to accounts filed earlier this month at Companies House. The highest-paid director received £2,019,152.


and Graham Rolph's brother in law is.....


.......PW :ugh:

[Albert Hall]

The stench surrounding this whole thing is worsening. Is there any proof that PW is related to one of the Meridian directors? If so then I think some serious questions need to be asked. How on earth can XL get away with paying a fortune to this company to support its directors' salaries at that kind of level?

Re data protection and cabin crew - yes, again it looks like there is something untoward here. Someone involved in Kiss clearly has a contact list for XL cabin crew. Good of them to offer them a job. Shame no-one has done the same for any of the pilots really, isn't it.

[leisurelad]

Guys - Can we please move on from here -PLEASE.

I know there are many off you that have been bitten hard, especially when it was the job you loved. It took me ages to move on myself when the airline that i had the most fun at went belly up. Luckily, i can still remember the fun summer days that i had there.

Companies go and restart as something else all the time throughout the country, its just that this gets more publicity because it was on such a huge scale. Directors / Managers etc will always loop around the rules and still have their fingers in the pies in some form, if everything is done legally which it looks like it is then having PW involvement is no big deal as i expect he is employed as something but not on a directors level within merdian aviation. I'm guessing here but theres allways a way round the rules.

Kiss Flights has also landed a big contract with the Global Travel group, one of the largest Travel Agents Consortiums in Britain so Kiss Flights will be sold by hundreds of agents across the UK and it is also very welcomed by most of the Trade. Again, despite what has happened, business is business.

Guys i know what your feeling but unfortunately all morals go out the window when companies go under, people who you respected and trusted sometimes end up not being the case. I hope something comes out of the launch for the those who may still be needing to find a job when Kiss and Viking start.

Cheers

[mudcity]

I find it intriguing that Kiss have a published schedule ex LGW..where have they got the slots, as far as I understand the XL slots are in the hands of the administrator who has the remit to obtain the highest price for them ? allegedly MON/EZY both trying to buy some of these slots...

[TartinTon]

I thought slots are not "owned" and therefore cannot be sold? If they aren't operated for 80% of the time then they go back into the pot to be reallocated by ACL or have I got that wrong?

[goldeneye]

cuerdley1989: Thomsonfly also fly from Manchester to Hurghada on a Friday through the winter in addition to Thomas Cooks Tuesday & Fridays flights.
All the tour operators bumped there prices up as soon as XL went under.
I know of a case with Monarch (Avro), where first thing in the morning the day after XL's colapse they had seats at £1000 for a family of 5, and by that evening they had gone up to £6500.

[Cool Wavy NG738]

So sad to see so many people that gave their all and worked so hard still suffering with little/no money. As well as the customers out of pocket, while some unscrupulous people continue to line their pockets and live the high life without any conscience - you know who you are :mad:

[bushbolox]

PW and his ilk are w@nkers and t0ssp0ts, but probably just on the right side of the law. Thats not the issue IHMO
I find it more depressing that people cant move away from these companies and will go back for more of the same.Comfort zone, rehired, stockholm syndrome after a few carrots have been dangled and taken. Start up rosters, messed up days off. Come on guys put the extra in its a great place with great people. Slowly over a few years it will take on the form of a proper company, IT led rostas , crew forums, new orders for kit,long haul re brand, new routes bullish hiring.(were working on it , next season it will all be sorted.) People will reminiss about XL, gsm,jet 2 ,whomever, get comfortable,mortgaged, move to the new bases , take out trg bonds , work with "a great" bunch of people ........Then one day .....boom ...it will go tits up again and the cycle starts again.
And so it goes ad nauseum.

Oh and while Im at it. Its XL.GONE so move on:mad:

Edit: Bad taste comments removed.

[ArtfulDodger]

Tell me Bushbolox, did you work for XL ??

[loobysue]

this is a posting from T/A
Regarding VIKING/KISS I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it was without doubt (VIKING) are the worse bit of public transport that they have ever used. She said the plane was grotty, the toilets smelt like a urinal and in the pocket of the seat infront of one of them was a used sick bag.
The return flight had very little food as it had been consumed by the outward passengers. They had to stop for crew change and fuel in Athens (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g189400-Athens_Attica-Vacations.html) that added 2 hours to journey. They had a fire on board, the cooker overheated and had to be extinguished.My advice to you would be to find out if you have to stop in Athens as they weren't told about this.

[wouldhave]

Well I find that interesting especially as Kiss doesnt start operating flights until 2009.

I can understand the hurt of some people on this thread but let me put it another way. If you ran your own business and it failed and you wanted to start up again would you want people to support you - of course you would.

We have Kiss as a supplier - I have not yet had an enquiry where I could use them or even price with them but at the end of the day it is the consumers choice as to whether or not they are used and if they are competitive on price. Today is a very price driven market in the travel industry and on the routes they have chosen they have a chance to be succesful.

I dont have an opinion on whether or not it is right what has happened - Im sad to have seen XL go but day flights on the Cyprus and Turkey routes will be snapped up if the price is right as people are not overly keen on the night flights.

[loobysue]

sorry it was a VIK flight, which is the same as it will be when they do the flights under the KISS banner. The staff even talked about KISS to them

[wouldhave]

Well in that case it will still have been on the MD83 as the new 737-800s dont arrive until the end of the year. Now I am no expert on flying distances (apart from being able to tell how long a flight will take) however I would imagine this is a long flight for an MD83 to take.

This is in no way excusing the toilet, food or sick bag.

However with all due respect loobysue - the information you have posted is from Tripadvisor on a post which you have responded to and on there it certainly doesnt seem like a daughter and a friend of yours - in fact it seems like you hardly know them.

By all means if you have a valid complaint then air it - but dont go stealing others.

On the other hand, I think your petition is a worthwhile cause and I have signed up.

[rumair999]

Where has that interesting chap 'charterguy' gone, he was revealing something interesting about now !

[Albert Hall]

I am always interested to see what people have to reveal about this operation and have passed the point where anything would surprise me. I am guessing that the next bit of interest will come in the XL Administrator's Report which is due out on 7 November. It will be fascinating to see if Kroll have managed to unravel the tangled web of deals between XL and Meridian.

[greatoaks]

Yes I had a very nice letter form Kroll introducing themselves as the official administrators...........

..and basically saying you are owed monies from Xl but are getting :mad: all..

oh joy

[wings1950]

albert hall,any news on kroll report???

[greatoaks]

So far Krolls decisions have been:

Choccy Digestives for elevenses and
probably that nice little italian for lunch and pino grigio :D

the quest continues.................................................

[Havana]

Choccy Digestives for elevenses and
probably that nice little italian for lunch and pino grigio

That is on the XL expense account no doubt :ok:

[bnhs89]

The brother of former XL boss Phil Wyatt has become a director of Meridian Aviation, the company behind new seat-only operator Kiss Flights.

Jim Wyatt, who was appointed a director on October 28, insisted that despite the family link his brother was not involved in Kiss, a trading name of Meridian.

He hit back at industry speculation that it was established as a “parachute operation” for his brother. “I know what people say but I know the facts and he is not involved,” he said.

“He is my brother and he always will be. Phil is not involved in Kiss or Meridian and that’s it.”

Jim Wyatt was the founder in 1994 of Sabre Airways, which became Excel and later XL Airways. He is also a director of aircraft leasing business Ace Leasing.

He said he became involved with Meridian because of his 30 years’ experience and because he had previously worked with Andre Cachia, another Meridian director.

According to Meridian’s accounts for the year to the end of March 2008, Cachia and director Graham Rolph, Phil Wyatt’s brother-in-law, were paid a total of £2.8 million. (TTG October 24).

Meanwhile, an official report into the collapse of XL has been delayed by a month after administrators Kroll asked for more time. It said the case was complex as it involved 350,000 creditors.

The administrators’ report was due on November 7, but Kroll has been given High Court permission to put it back to December 4.

Once the report is released, it will be followed by a creditors’ meeting on December 18.

Wyatt's brother joins Kiss parent - Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1582773&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1582773&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1582773&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1582773&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1582773&articleTitle=Wyatt's%20brother%20joins%20Kiss%20parent)

[leisurelad]

Well both Wyatt brothers have allways been in aviation and no doubt will continue to. They probably have more contacts than the Royal family.

Anyway, anybody know the latest on Viking, when are the 737's going into operation. Seats are on sale now for next year and i hope they do well.

Many have criticised them but aren't there also 2 other projects underway to make up for the loss of XL. Post in the Travel Weekly or TTG say that "project james" headed by Jonathan Hinkles is planned and also a guy called Garry Farley who wants to set up "all europe".

Out of the three planned i have most faith in Kiss Flights and "project james" that all will go well. the 3rd, we shall see.

[dc9-32]

Is that the same Garry Farley that worked for Sabre/Cougar ????? Next we'll be hearing Keith Newnham is back on the scene and that little man, Joe Forster :eek:

[just_registered]

if they just quietly set up and got on with it, I think people would leave it alone but the constant denial and trying to think they are smarter than everyone else is winding people up. I posted these links before but this time I have added a few more pointers so everyone gets it.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2008/ost080062.html (mhtml:{339B844C-4DA3-4D80-A828-38F01D64315B}mid://00000009/!x-usc:http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2008/ost080062.html)

and from that website, the following information:

Three entities hold more than a 5% interest in XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd owns 62.60% of XL Holdings. Pilot Investors Ltd is wholly owned by Malcolm Grumbridge, a UK citizen. Phil Wyatt, a UK citizen, owns 24.59% of XL Holdings and also holds a power of attorney over Pilot Investors Lid's voting rights in XL Holdings. FIDECS, an employee benefit trust established for the benefit of certain individuals each of whom is part of the management of XL Airways UK and each of whom is a UK citizen, owns 5.74% of XL Holdings. No other shareholders hold more than 5% of XL Holdings


PUG 6 LIMITED - Companies House Reports and Documents (http://www.companiesgate.co.uk/PUG+6+LIMITED.aspx)

reproduced below is the lookup for that company

Company No: 05583202

Company Address (as per Companies House):
PUG 6 LIMITED
C/O M C Grumbridge
The Hogarth Group
1A Airedale Avenue
LONDON
W 4 2NW


--------------------------------




Conclusion. XL, and inextricably PW are linked to MG, who as well as being majority shareholder in pilot investors, at the same time set up Kiss flights.


Now stop all the denial crap :=

[wings1950]

you are right JUST REGISTERED, It must be a very profitable set up to look after so many investors /directors!, M.Grumbridge is a solicitor with lots of ownership of different companies.....:confused:

[Affretage]

wings1950

Just heard that Malcolm Grumbridge and Jim Wyatt owns a company that has 50% of the ownership of Viking Airlines. So really - Phil Wyatt is really not involved, but only if MG is the front man for Phil ? What you think ?

[wings1950]

Exclusive Phil Wyatt interview - part 2

Thursday, December 18, 2008

Lucy Huxley ([email protected])


Last week, Phil Wyatt, the man at the helm of the collapsed XL Leisure Group, revealed (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1816608&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1816608&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1816608&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1816608&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1816608&articleTitle=Phil%20Wyatt%20breaks%20his%20XL%20silence&fromSearch=yes) how things started to unravel this summer for the UK’s third-largest tour operator.

In this compelling sequel to his first interview since the group went bust, Wyatt reveals how within hours of striking what he thought was a rescue deal, conversations were, unbeknown to him, taking place which he believes sealed XL’s fate.

Rescue thwarted
As TTG revealed last week, Wyatt had held talks with the two Icelandic banks behind the group, Landsbanki and Straumur Investment Bank, about a refinancing plan.

This would have seen XL and other charter airlines and operators merge under a venture called Phoenix Wings.

That meeting had broken down on August 14 mainly because the banks could not come to an agreement on how the debt would be financed. But although they did not want to do the Phoenix Wings deal, they said they would back XL as a business.

Wyatt flew back to Crete, where he had been on holiday with his family, with mixed feelings. He knew the deal meant he would lose his £36 million shareholding in XL, but at least he felt the business would be saved – or so he thought.

Financial meltdown
Unfortunately, at that time, the financial markets were getting more desperate by the day and Wyatt said Straumur was eager to get additional guarantees backing its credit revolver.

“When arriving back in Crete, I learned that Straumur had met with Barclays, XL’s bankers, without any of the XL directors, to try to negotiate a future solution to XL’s fuel hedging instruments, provided by Barclays.

“In essence, the result of that meeting was that Barclays got really nervous and closed down these instruments, crystallising an immediate loss of $42 million for XL.

"As a result, Barclays froze all of XL’s accounts,” he said.

“Suddenly, things were totally out of order. XL couldn’t even pay its direct operating bills, even though the accounts had more than sufficient funds,” he revealed.

“At that point, XL could not trade without support from its lending group. Straumur continued to provide minimal credits to keep the business running and by doing so, it succeeded in forcing the XL board to give security over XL Germany and XL France.

“Without the panic situation that was created, I believe we could have sold our assets or raised new securities.”

Wyatt claimed that XL France and XL Germany were debt-free and had no registered charges, and that XL France alone had recently been valued at between €70 million and €110 million.

“If we had sold those two assets in an orderly market, we would have covered the majority, if not all, of our debts,” he said.

“In July we had tested the market with a short teaser on XL France. This was carried out by an investment bank and we received positive replies from Thomas Cook and Tui.

“Unfortunately, we were so confident of the banks refinancing XL that we did not take this process any further. In hindsight, this was a mistake,” he admitted.

“In addition, Virgin was very keen to buy Travel City Direct. A deal was still being discussed days prior to the company’s failure.”

Wyatt added: “I understand Virgin has concluded a deal with [the administrators] for the company name and data, so I assume Travel City Direct will trade again under the Virgin umbrella at some point in time.

“XL needed between £60 million and £70 million to see it through the winter and with the huge drop in fuel price, the requirement would have been reduced.”

Clock ticking
“On September 9, we met with the lender group (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1255298&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1255298&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1255298&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1255298&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1255298&articleTitle=XL%20boss:%20my%20plan%20to%20rescue%20clients% 20was%20rejected&fromSearch=yes) in the afternoon, but by 20.30 they confirmed they weren’t going to back the business (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1234372&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1234372&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1234372&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1234372&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1234372&articleTitle=XL%20contingency%20plan%20'rejected'&fromSearch=yes) in cash terms,” he recalled.

“The following morning, Eimskip announced that it would be prepared to write off the $280 million it had guaranteed. Had we known this seven days earlier, it’s easy to assume things would have ended differently.

“It is most likely we would have sold XL for a cash injection only. After all, XL France alone was worth in excess of this, let alone the other brands XL owned. We simply ran out of time.”

During this period the XL board met every day, sometimes twice, Wyatt revealed.

“Every step was carefully evaluated and decided with advice from our legal team. On the evening of the 9th, the board requested that all customer deposits be ring-fenced in a special account and not used for operational expenses.

“That night [September 10] I didn’t sleep.

"The entire team carried on for 24 hours trying to get a deal done. The next night was also horrendous. At that point, we had come to realise that hope was running out. And on top of that, we really didn’t want XL to fail on 9/11.”

Wyatt explained that when all hope was gone, the XL board and its legal team planned for XL to cease operations at 2am on Friday September 12, when all aircraft would be in the UK or in the air en route home, causing minimum disruption.

“At 1am, I sent an email to all my staff and told them all that had happened and how we’d done everything we could,” recounted Wyatt, tears welling up in his eyes at the memory.

Regaining his composure, he continued: “I went home and tried to get some sleep, but had to be up at 5am and back at the Gatwick Hilton for the press conference. I thought about having my say there, but didn’t.

“Those tears I cried up on that stage weren’t crocodile tears: they were real. Afterwards, I went back to the office. It was very emotional. Some people wanted to hit me and some wanted to kiss me. My daughter and niece were two of many made redundant on that day.

“I got my bag and went home to my wife.”

Mistakes
“If I’ve made mistakes it’s that I should never have got someone else in to run a business I was a majority shareholder in.

“I should have encouraged Peter Owen to step down from Silverjet, as no one can be 100% focused on one job while having two roles.

“And I should have got corporate refinancing experts like International Rescue in to help. They could have saved XL.

“It should never have gone belly up. Due to very bizarre outside conditions, what happened, happened. The whole thing was illogical, believe me, and I want people to know this.”

Wyatt had nothing but praise for the CAA (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1315311&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1315311&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1315311&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1315311&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1315311&articleTitle=XL's%20final%20passengers%20flown%20home&fromSearch=yes).

“They could not have been more supportive. They really worked with us to try to save the business. I was also delighted that [the divisions in] Germany and France, and the 750 staff who work in those two businesses, were saved. Both were really cash positive.”

Kiss Flights
Wyatt was determined to put a lid on the rumour (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1264480&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1264480&articleTitle=New%20Kiss%20boss%20Moss%20quashes%20Wyatt%20ru mours&fromSearch=yes) that he was behind Kiss Flights and that it had been set up as a “parachute” business to drop into when he knew XL was in trouble.

“I do drive a car with the number plate K155 XLA. It just means ‘I love XL Airways’, nothing else,” Wyatt insisted. “I do love the name Kiss, but Kiss Flights is nothing to do with me.”

Wyatt was also keen to defend his fellow colleagues’ reputations.

“When people have a go at individuals like Paul Moss (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1265622&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1265622&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1265622&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1265622&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1265622&articleTitle=New%20Kiss%20boss%20Moss%20quashes%20Wyatt%20ru mours&fromSearch=yes) [former Freedom Flights managing director], I want them to realise that these people lost a lot of money too,” he added.

“I want to make sure staff at XL and the likes of Mike Greenacre [the managing director of The Co-operative Travel who has been publicly critical of the XL situation], are aware that Paul and the rest of the management team who had shares in XL all lost a personal fortune.

“In total, the management owned over a third of the company and lost over £100 million. I personally lost over £36 million,” said Wyatt.

“The doubters have got to stop thinking that this was some machiavellian plan.”

• Industry welcomes CAA payout action (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1841205&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1841205&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1841205&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1841205&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1841205&articleTitle=Industry%20welcomes%20CAA%20payout%20action&fromSearch=yes) (15 Dec 2008)
• CAA to pay non-Atol XL claimants (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1823990&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1823990&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1823990&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1823990&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1823990&articleTitle=CAA%20to%20pay%20non-Atol%20XL%20claimants&fromSearch=yes) (12 Dec 2008)
• Collapse: 'Most challenging airlift ever' (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=1228850&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=1228850&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=1228850&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=1228850&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=1228850&articleTitle=Collapse:%20'Most%20challenging%20airlift%20eve r'&fromSearch=yes) (12 Sep 2008)
• XL Leisure Group records £24m loss (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=61139&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=769426&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=769426&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=769426&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=769426&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=769426&articleTitle=XL%20Leisure%20Group%20records%20%A324m%20loss&fromSearch=yes) (12 Jun 2008)


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1 Response to this Story
1. Posted by John Smith, On 20/12/2008 10:33

It would have been nice to receive this email sent to "all staff". I didn't get any warning, nor did any other pilots I spoke to.

The routes and aircraft to be operated by Kiss Flights are very similar to XL's. It's almost uncanny.

A doubter.

http://www.ttglive.com/html/themes/TTGnewPink/images/common/top.png (javascript: _513_INSTANCE_GzZ7_scrollIntoView('0');) Top (javascript: _513_INSTANCE_GzZ7_scrollIntoView('0');)
:ugh::}

[PPRuNe Pop]

This thread has gone as far as we are prepared to let it go and it is now closed.

Someone can start a new one but none of the above will be allowed to migrate to it.

AA&R Mods