Did you feel ripped of by your flying school?

[eikido]

Hello people.

It seems that there are many non serious schools.
I've heard a few being ripped of by the school.

Paying much more than expected for example?

I want to know if you feel you've been ripped of.

If so, how did they rip you of and which school (incl country)?

I'm trying to find a school to join in either South Africa or USA Florida.

Eikido

[ChrisLKKB]

It seems that there are many non serious schools.What do you mean by non serious flying schools ?

There are plenty of excellent smaller schools around in Florida and the UK (I can't speak for SA) that provice but don't necessarily specialise in commercial training because they cater to broader spectrum (ie PPLs, charter and rental) but this doesn't necessarily mean the quality of service is any worse, infact you may even find them to provide a better service with more instructor time, better aircraft availability, more flexible hours of opperation and a more personal level of service. You need to weigh stuff like that up when it comes to choosing between a small organisation and a 'pilot factory'.

On pilot factory style schools,I occasionally notice Ormand Beach taking a knocking on this forum so in case you are considering them and to balance things out, I have 2 good friends who are now flying for major UK airlines who went to Ormand beach. I've spoken to them very recently about it, they had a few minor gripes after they finished there which are long forgotten but they'll tell you on the whole that it does exactly what it says on the tin and more importantly both have said they'd choose them again. I also know 3 instructors who used to teach there, none of them had any major problems with the outfit, all returned because they had jobs back in the UK, 2 are now retiring, one is flying jets.

Paying much more than expected for example?You will often pay more than quoted unless you are very talented and very lucky. Prices quoted are for minimum hours required by the aviation authority concerned. It's not unusual to require more than minimum hours, fuel prices vary and often the cost quoted is based on the fuel price at the time. If you fail the odd exam then the resit may mean extra money and you may even fail the flight test, it happens a lot and may require extra flight time and another test fee, not forgetting the cost of renting the aircraft while on test. Other sundries can and usually will crop up. It's nothing to do with being ripped off it's just the nature of the industry.

[eikido]

For example, i've read many posts about avoidning Naples Air Center.
I read 1 post that motived many reasons quiet well. I can't find that post but i'm still looking for it. That's 1 example.

Also, i'm much more for doing it in a smaller school and not those "pilot factories".

Also i don't want to complete the education too fast. Slowly is better for me.

That way i'm going to read it integrated in a modular way (Start to sign up with ppl, if i feel comfortable with the school, i'll continue...)

Edit: Link to one post describing NAC. It's not the post i was looking for but it still describes a bit.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/149814-jaa-cpl-florida.html#post1584626

http://www.pprune.org/1696062-post20.html

[CY333]

I know guys that had to pay extra for the PPL due to fuel price increase.
That school though did not reduce the PPL cost when the oil price was decreased again a few months later.

[Kerosine]

Interesting how 'oil prices' drive costs in one direction only! :rolleyes:

I think spicejetter is dead on, sit down and work on the numbers based on logbooks and bank/credit card statements. That's the only think that will hold water when making a complaint or trying to retrieve money from an FTO.

Always keep accurate records, buy a folder to keep everything together for example. I know from experience how frustrating it is to not be able to find that important document where debt/debtors are concerned!

[ChrisLKKB]

For example, i've read many posts about avoidning Naples Air Center.

Naples are far from non-serious when it comes to trainning, at least that was my impression when I stopped off there for a chat on a couple of cross country flights. They looked very organised and had a good fleet of aircraft, I also know someone who did the UK PPL and IMC there who rates them. I never used them because Naples itself was so dull.

This was all some time ago now though so things may have changed, their website has, it's a shame they don't have a picture of their fleet, they used to and I think it shows pride in your aircraft which is important imo. They've also padded out their graduates page with some students picture being entered twice (maybe just a mistake). It's nice to see they up hold the tradition of cutting your tail feathers on your first solo.

[mroovek]

Marketing is the only thing NAC is really good at. I flew with them and, unfortunately, I totally disagree. They're a mess in the most literal sense. Once you pay them upfront, all the friendliness and "good impression" is gone. Believe me, there are far better schools, just few feet away.

[Flying Squid]

I had a rough time very early on in my training which has cost me atleast £1500 and still feel pretty bitter about it to be honest. But don't let a company ruin the rest of your training, as said above, make sure that your invoices and logbook tally to the penny. If they don't then go through everything with a fine tooth comb and find out why not.

Flight schools are very quick to put prices up but extremely slow to bring them back down again. Although to be honest at the moment I would rather my school builds up a bit of fat to live off whilst times are tough than they charge me the a few quid less per hour and go under half way through my IR!

[annita]

I paid 10 000 euros for my PPL.
Is quite expensive if you compare it with other places but had no choice due to the area I used to stay.
The point I felt that they took advantage of the oil situation is when they charged 185 euros an hour for a 152 and when the oil prices went down, they still kept the high price and as far as I know they still do today.

[civil aviation]

From the enquiries below, I felt that all 3 FTO's did make it fairly clear what was included or not included in their prices for courses: CPL, PPL etc.
Also, the OBA prices have definitely come DOWN significantly, since I looked last in the Autumn, which is to be expected with their much lower fuel costs

Anyway, if you are uncertain you should contact the FTO(s) you are considering and ask them to confirm prices and/or extras in writing.

(copied from post on PRIVATE FLYING)
Been researching Florida for son of a friend.
In the interests of fairness/to look for yourself sites are;
flyoba.com , flyoft.com, flyeft.com

OBA seem much cheaper at $5995 with the others $8525 & $8690. (by the way, OFT are still advertising £4595 but their actual price is $8525 & edit current EFT advert on this site is now $8995)
Also, OBA include 28 (not25) hours instruction and night qualification.
The main difference/warning: OBA do not include accommodation but, if you wanted 28 days, offer it for $819 (28 X $29) so OBA is still much cheaper.
All 3 offer various upgrades e.g. aircraft type.
Needless to say, the competition is hot but EFT's knocking of opponents is very unpleasant if not dishonest. OBA's answer is that, if you identify anything comparable cheaper, they'll give you cashback.
The only clue is that OBA own their training fleet and premises and are a major fuel supplier advertising 100LL $2.449 (US Gal) which obviously costs them a lot less. Therefore, OBA must have lower costs than the competition.

I haven't posted this for a rehearsal of the rubbishing 'foreign' training tosh from failing flying club supporters. OK- Going abroad doesn't suit everyone but thousands have found Florida the better and cheaper alternative and will continue to do so. However any thoughts on the prices points are welcome.

[daraireland]

Planning on heading to Naples soon, any feed back from current or past students would be great.
IS it a good school.

Please I need IMPORTANT advice,

Cheers

[JB007]

I, and quite a few others had an awful time early on in my training with a certain school at Humberside. It's been noted on here many times by myself and others.

Can't agree more with the logbook and invoices. Make 100% sure from day one you know what you're paying for i.e. Any groundschool time or paperwork given to you...if you have any doubts about anything, seek advice from someone who's been through the system before paying anything...

[hughesyd]

would you be willing to pm me and let me know which school at Humberside you are talking about?. I have been considering a certain school there and wouldnt want to be making a mistake!. thanks.

[G SXTY]

Do your homework before signing up with any school. These are just a few of the questions you should be asking:

- Is groundschool / briefing time included in their rates or is it charged separately?
- Do they offer written statements detailing costs against hours flown? Are these statements provided on demand?
- Are rates fixed for the duration of training, or subject to change? If subject to change, by how much?
- What are their payment terms? Do they require your account to be in positive balance prior to flying, and if so, by how much? (NEVER pay for an entire course upfront, and be VERY, VERY suspicious of any FTO that demands large upfront payments).
- Is there a surcharge for credit card payments? Note that in the UK at least, paying by credit card offers more protection than cash or debit card.
- Is charging based on block time, block + taxy allowance or hobbs meter?
- Is there an additional charge for 170A flights or are they charged at normal dual rates?
- What is the rate for aircraft hire during tests (it should be examiner fee + solo rate - not dual).
- What is the average number of hours taken by their students to pass the PPL/CPL/IR compared to the legal minimum? If they 'don't have this information', then they should - again, be suspicious.

Thorough planning and research will reduce the chance of nasty surprises at the end of your training. And whatever you do, budget on at least 10-20% extra on top of the quoted price to allow for additional training and exam resits - very few students manage to pass everything in minimum hours.

[bfisk]

I did the NEAR/NAIA programme, and I feel okay with it. They were open about the fact that prices are estimates, and of about $40.000 or so to NAIA, I finished the program with less than $500 to pay extra. For the norwegian part, not so clear -- had to pay some 30.000 NOK (about £3000) extra, and this seemed to be the minimum (some people had to pay 80-100k extra). Good quality of training overall, but I feel ground time was somewhat pricey compared to the usefullness (read ATPL classroom crash course).

I havn't been anywhere else, so I don't know if the grass is greener on the other side. From what I hear, it might not be. So all in all I'm happy with it.

[SweetChariotXV]

Planning on heading to Naples soon, any feed back from current or past students would be great.
IS it a good school.

Please I need IMPORTANT advice,

Hi daraireland,

I will give you the best advise... AVOID NAC!! After my experience with them, I would not go back! :=

Don't think that they offer more than what other schools in Florida offer. They are all pretty similar. As mroovek says;


Marketing is the only thing NAC is really good at. I flew with them and, unfortunately, I totally disagree. They're a mess in the most literal sense. Once you pay them upfront, all the friendliness and "good impression" is gone.



He is absolutely right. Although, not even sure the marketing is that good!

I was going to do everything with them, had the money to spend, but realised after going to see them and speaking to them, it would have been a big mistake.

I am not into slagging off places or FTO's on an open forum, but if you or anyone is thinking of going there, have not paid their deposit yet, and want to know exactly why I think they are not so good, let me know and I will PM you.

Cheers.

[Dovregubben]

What happened to NEAR students when NAIA ceased operations, did NEAR students loose their money.

And how come that NEAR now is rebranded to NEIA -North European Institute of Aviation. Is that to escape any claims after the NAIA collapse? Can see NEIA has the same key personell as NEAR. . . .

As far as I can see both NEAR and NEIA is still operating ?

[Ronand]

I agree with SweetChariotXV
I met 3former students from NAC, they all advised me to avoid NAC at all costs! It seems that this school is only after your money, once u paid they treat u like ****! Plus there are so much hidden and extra costs, so they ended up paying more than if they would have stayed in europe.... They also said that the quality of training was a joke..... And they had a lots of technical problems with planes while their training. They told me about fellow students having electricall failures and even engine failures, while training.....
and recently one of their Planes had a fatal crash....(Was all over TV in Florida)
So think twice, if u really want to go there.....

[chard118]

Just arrived back from Ormond Beach (FL) around a week ago, having finally decided to take the plunge and do a PPL, and I can't speak highly enough of them. Obviously not having anything to compare to I found them very approachable the relatively low ratio of students to instructors meant that they had more time for you outside of flying time, going over a couple of tedious quibbles you had with certain parts of the curriculum.

My instructor, if anyone is going out there, Bob Strouse, has the patience of a saint, really down to earth guy as they all are there at the moment. The aircraft fleet is readily available for immediate flying if the occasion calls for it and the general good weather there means you will be heading for completion within 4 weeks and without that thought of "I think im rushing this."

Mr. Adrian Thomson is also in good spirits these days so the world is at peace so it seems!

So, my advice is, if you want affordable no-thrills but professional outfit, go with OBA, have absolutely no complaints with them!

[Mikehotel152]

Going back to the original question: No, I didn't feel I was ripped off.

My only caveat is that you should expect to pay 15% more than was quoted for a PPL/CPL/ME/IR. Remember, they may call them 'quotes' but in reality they are merely 'estimates'. Legally speaking, a quote is a fixed price and I've never heard of a modular course being of fixed cost. Integrated courses probably are.

The extra 15% is due to going over the minimum hours (IMHO 95% of pilots do), fuel surcharges, 'hidden' costs such as approach, hold and landing fees, inflation between the date you start the PPL and when you start the other courses, and often your own decision to incur extra flying costs to ensure you pass (for e.g. after three weeks waiting for the weather to allow a test attempt you might do an hour's flying to sharpen your skills before the big day!).

[civil aviation]

You hear all sorts of stories about schools but I've always found Ormond Beach to be open and easy to deal with and their web site is straightforward (Ormond Beach Aviation - JAA PPL USA UK Flight Training USA, Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, Orlando, naples, FL,Florida specializing in JAA JAR PPL,airplane training,IMC,Night,Multi,FAA,Radio licence, JAA ATPL,professional pilot program (http://www.flyoba.com)).
This contrast with another well-known outfit in Florida whose advertising (even on this site !) and surcharges seem designed to deceive.
If any FTO will not give you a list of all their charges (inc. any surcharges) in writing beforehand don't waste your time and money with them.
On any course, it is important to establish the cost of all extras e.g. exams or how many/much- included or extra?