Rough cost of servicing a Eurocopter EC 135

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Anyone know the rough cost of servicing a Eurocopter EC 135 for the year ?

[Helinut]

Its as long as a piece of string.

It all depends on what it is used for, how much and how unlucky you are with unscheduled maintenance, and at what point you are in the aircraft's life and its major components.

[XV666]

Whatever it is, I'm sure that no answer here will satisfy Skyhigh-Ulster :rolleyes:

Must be feed-the-trolls-day again: PSNI won't stop bothering him :p

[SilsoeSid]

Its as long as a piece of string.

Twice as long as it is from the middle to one of the ends.
:ok:

[Whirlygig]

It also depends on how any particular finance department wants to account for the maintenance; cash basis, accruals basis, current cost or historical cost? For an operator which has its own engineering facility, how are overheads absorped into the labour rate? Is VAT reclaimable (depends on the type of operation and where based)?

Skyhigh, whatever figure you want the average annual maintenance cost to be, I'm sure I can find a way of accounting for it!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Coconutty]

a "Rough" answer needed here :rolleyes:

The rough costs per year will be approximately that required to pay for the spare parts / life timed components / consumables etc. / engine overhaul ( unless already covered by an SBH / PBH type agreement, whch will need the cost to be factored in ), + VAT or whatever your local tax may be called depending on where in the world you have it serviced, plus the cost of the engineer(s)' wages, and not forgetting to whack on a load of profit for the maintenance organisation if there is one.

Then again if you just fly it for 99 hrs during the year in question it might not cost anything at all ( roughly ) ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Whatever it is, I'm sure that no answer here will satisfy Skyhigh-Ulster :rolleyes:

Must be feed-the-trolls-day again: PSNI won't stop bothering him


Oh your so kind :=

So roughly based on 1500hrs flying hrs in a year ?

£1 million - £500,000 - £250,000 :bored:

[tigerfish]

Possibly! Depending on whether there is an R in the month, & Who is paying you!

Tigerfish

[PANews]

If it helps - and I know it will not... South & East Wales Police Air Support claimed this week that they are paying Bond Air Services £1.8M per year for their EC135, pilotage, on site engineer, spare aircraft on tap and the base facility.

I guess that is for 1,000 hours but of course that nasty word 'profit' is also part of that set of figures so perhaps that may be seen as the top dollar price.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thanks :ok:

[airmail]

The widely available figures for this contract (google is your friend here) say that when it started it was going to cost the PSNI £750K pa for 18/365 (excluding the cost of the aircraft). As I believe it has now gone to 24/365 and we assume a 30% increase in costs then it stands at £1m a year. Good value when you consider that in the last year it:

Attended 1268 incidents, found 28 people directly and helped groundcrews find another 33. It helped find 8 people who were missing or vulnerable and located property to the total value of £163K - oh and it also was used 4 times as a medevac.

Source http://www.psni.police.uk/cc_annual_report_2008.pdf

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thank you for the Help.


:ok:

[airmail]

Skyhigh

You've asked numerous questions on this over the last few months and I'm curious to know why. On the basis that the latest figures show that NI has 1.7m citizens and we then say that the PSNI are writing down the capital cost of the airframe over 5 years (which is very short), then it only costs £1 per citizen per annum all up. What is it that you have the hump with??

[Coconutty]

airmail :

I thought it was fairly obvious that the reason for continually bleating on about the cost of operating a Police helicopter in N.I. was because Skyhigh-Ulster has a personal gripe in the mis-belief that it is not cost effective, and a waste of taxpayers money.

He has obviously concluded that he is right, and that everyone involved in the decision making processes as to whether such a resource provides value for money or not are all wrong ( Chief Constable / Force Finance & Accounting Departments / Best Value studies etc etc ), and he probably thinks the same about all other Police air units. :bored:

There are numerous threads in varying guises all trying to get someone to agree with him that Police Air Support Units are a waste of money, and despite all the information and evidence provided to the contrary, he just refuses to accept the informed opinions of those far more knowledgable on the subject than himself.

Providing factual information only seems to fuel his passion for making dodgy arithmetical calculations to try and prove his point.

Standing by for the next one where the £1 per head per annum will either be contested, or he will come up with another "better" use for the cash :ugh:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[airmail]

Coconutty

Agreed its obvious (s)he's got an issue with them but I'm curious to know what it is. Firstly it was the fact it should be medevac as well, then its the cost of pilots, then availability and then the cost of servicing. I've no involvement with that operation but I'd love to know what bee is in his/her bonnet.

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Hi there - its easy to answer your question.

I can't believe that we spend so much money ( maybe not in your eyes ) on a helicopter that sits on the tarmac for 20hrs a day :eek:

Why not sell it if it can't medevac as well and get one that can :bored:

The other point maybe someone can answer do all UK police forces contract out the pilotage service ?

[Fortyodd2]

"The other point maybe someone can answer do all UK police forces contract out the pilotage service ?"

No. Some directly employ everyone including sufficient to cover leave and sickness. Some directly employ their Chief and Line pilots and buy in relief cover. It's down to individual forces and how they wish to balance the risk. Contracting can be more expensive but you are guaranteed cover - especially so in cases of long term sickness. Directly employed has it's benefits in that, providing everybody stays healthy, costs can be lower.

[jayteeto]

Sky High Ulster, as a taxpayer it is your right to question the value of having a helicopter so don't feel too aggreived at people having a go!! I fly a 135 in merseyside and in my past I flew many many hours in NI. I assume, by having Ulster in your name, that you are not a republican terrorist trying to be anti-police. In defence of an asset grounded 20 hours a day..... here goes.....
Servicing and maintenance are done on airframe hours, the more you fly - the more it costs. Pilotage is a fixed cost when you contract out, direct employ is fixed cost assuming everyone stays healthy (or you have a very good costly insurance policy). Using the pilots and crew more often has a small annual saving per flying hour, but will cost more overall for the year. The major cost overall will be fuel and engineering.
Some days we fly 10 hours per 24, some days zero hours per 24. The main thing is that we are available, very important to note this one, available if needed. If a pursuit or incident can be managed safely, we MAY have just saved an innocent life, you will never know because it never happened. We recently saved a woman who attempted suicide (mental problems), she WOULD have died but for us. So what cost a life? What cost a safe conclusion to a pursuit? 1 million quid is a lot of money each year, you think too much. So how much is not too much? Is 500k alright and 1 million not?
I am a taxpayer and I have and will continue to raise my concerns when I think cash is being wasted. My boss thinks I am millitant some days, but this is public cash we use. However I truly believe that the money we pay for the helicopter is money well spent. The criminals still fear us and they will stop a job if they see us around. Our and others records speak for themselves. Bite the bullet and accept that they are doing a worthwhile (but expensive ) job.

[Whirlygig]

Why not sell it if it can't medevac as well and get one that canUnder the Freedom of Information Act, please can you tell me

a) how many times you have asked this question;
b) how many times that question has been answered;
c) how many experienced and knowledgeable persons have explained why; and
d) why you wilfully refuse to accept the responses given.

Personally, I can't believe that you think £1 or £2 a year is expensive!

Cheers

Whirls

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

Thanks jayteeto - definitely not a terrorist :eek:

I've no problems with a crew sitting ready to go - my concern is that a helicopter should have been purchased that combined both rolls if the need was to arise !!

Now i've heard some reports the helicopter the PSNI has taken some injured people onboard.

Romours have it the PSNI might be buying a second Helicopter - surely they'll do their homework :ugh:

[Rotorbee]

Having a helicopter that does both roles is stupid, because if you load it it with all the equipment for both roles, it would be way to heavy to get of the ground, therefore you have to make a lot of compromises on equipment, which will make the operations more diffcult and more dangerous. EMS and police is quite different in their profiles of flying, training and so on. In the end the operation would probably even more expensive with one helicopter for both roles, because you need a bigger one and more training and a form of backup and, and, and....

If there is one region in GB that needs that helicopter badly, it is probably NI.
:ugh:

[Skyhigh-Ulster]

In January, as a further indication of the EC135’s multi-role capability and popularity, the Czech Police Aviation Department in Prague took delivery of the first of eight it ordered. Half of the eight helicopters will be used in the Czech Republic’s Integrated Rescue System (emergency medical service, police, fire fighting, mountain rescue and search and rescue); three will be configured for police missions such as surveillance, anti-terrorist and crime fighting; and the last will be reserved for “flexible response, universal-mission”

So by the looks of it - police+medical can be combined !!

[Bladecrack]

Skyhigh-Ulster,

The PSNI helicopter has carried out a few casualty evacuations over the last few years, and while this it is not its primary role they can exercise discretion for the purpose of saving life.
I understand that the PSNI are considering a second larger helicopter for use in the future but this will again undoubtedly be for a Police role, and as such they will no doubt look at all options, and pick the one best suited to the role it has to fulfill, i.e. Police Air Support.

On a separate note, I also heard recently that the NI based charity which are fundrasing for an NI air ambulance, and have been for several years, hope to have the required funds to get the project up and running next year. I wish them the best of luck with it.

BC

[timex]

In January, as a further indication of the EC135’s multi-role capability and popularity, the Czech Police Aviation Department in Prague took delivery of the first of eight it ordered. Half of the eight helicopters will be used in the Czech Republic’s Integrated Rescue System (emergency medical service, police, fire fighting, mountain rescue and search and rescue); three will be configured for police missions such as surveillance, anti-terrorist and crime fighting; and the last will be reserved for “flexible response, universal-mission”

So by the looks of it - police+medical can be combined !!


SH, look at whats said...Integrated Rescue system so a command and control platform probably, then 3 specifically in the POLICE Role.

Just accept that a lot of people have spent a lot of time deciding how and what to buy for the Province, hopefully when they buy anything else they'll remember to send you your invite...

[Helinut]

Why does a police force only buy a helicopter that is good for police work and NOT for HEMS, SAR, fire-fighting, flying politicians and businessman or anything else?

That'll be because it is a police force, and if it bought a helicopter to do all those other things (which would be MUCH more expensive and at the same time less useful as a police helicopter) it would legitimately be criticised for wasting taxpayers' money.

You seem to want it both ways SH. It can't be too expensive but not expensive enough.

How about the different motor vehicles used by the Emergency Services: Traffic cars, pandas, thug buses (TSG carriers), dog vans, fire engines, control vehicles, ambulances, paramedic cars, motorcycles and bicycles. Should they be replaced by a bus that can do everything, but nothing well? If you go to a police/fire/ambulance station you will see most of them spending most of the time parked up one place or another. Especially these days, it is too expensive for them just to drive around. They get saved up for when they are really useful. Notice any parallels?

[airmail]

Skyhigh

You are reverberating the same stuff again and again but one small question springs to mind, namely what does PSNI actually stand for??

[SilsoeSid]

I can't believe that we spend so much money ( maybe not in your eyes ) on a helicopter that sits on the tarmac for 20hrs a day :eek:

Because in the remaining 4 hours of that day it isn't!

I don't know the real figures, but lets say the force has 1200hrs pa.
1200 / 4 = 300 days

65 days down for schedules servicing, unscheduled servicing, weather etc seems fair.

A flying rate of 4hrs a day doesn't seem to bad!

If the annual hours were increased, it would cost more....simple.
What do you want?

[Senior Pilot]

Skyhigh-Ulster,

This is your seventh thread on the subject of PSNI costs :hmm:

You have been offered substantial advice, nearly always excellent and useful, yet you willfully refuse to accept it when it fails to meet your agenda.

Enough is enough: you have been told this more than once, yet the message hasn't sunk in. Go away and annoy someone else :*