T5 is working

[k3lvc]

I'm hoping it's now got to the stage (5 months since opening) where we can openly discuss the place.

Despite having first visited the place when it was all 'hard hats and ladders' my first departure from there wasn't until BA738 on 10th August. Mission aborted at the last minute due to the ATC Tower Fire (alarm ?) - I considered this to be exceptional circumstances and accepted BA's handling despite it taking over 2 hours from the cancellation announcement to getting on the Hoppa to the Renaissance. Some humour was added to the proceedings by being 'dealt with' by Jeremy Spake.

24th August BA738 - all worked fine - see T5 is working :ok:

31st August BA738 - exact rerun of 10th August but no excuse given this time - do BA not know how to deal with customers :ugh: A few cancelled flights led to c.1,000 people milling around in the check in area being watched by officious oafs with clipboards whilst most of the Customer Service desks remained unmanned. Again 2 hours from cancellation to leaving the building and amazed the police didn't end up being called to deal with the unhappy, kept in the dark, fare paying CUSTOMERS.

I've been supportive of both the place and the companies involved but enough is enough - I may have had bad luck but a 33% success factor is not good enough - time to try LCY-GVA and watch BA sink gracefully.

[VAFFPAX]

FYI - LHR had to cancel a lot of flights because of weather conditions (see http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/341349-heathrow-delay-cancellations-today.html). While we were all caught out in it (me ex-DUB into LTN instead of LHR), that does not mean T5 is not working. You should've seen LTN. None of the airport employees were remotely helpful with the exception of one baggage handler who offered to look for the passenger information people, but, alas, they were no-where to be found.

S.

[k3lvc]

Thanks for the link - might have ben useful if BA were passing on this message rather than leaving people in the dark.

As previously when T5 works it's great but when it doesn't it certainly cannot claim to be world class and something we should be proud of.

[Skipness One Echo]

Ask the question again when BA longhaul moves in en-masse from Terrible 4....

[Final 3 Greens]

[QLHR had to cancel a lot of flights because of weather conditionsUOTE][/QUOTE]

Pretty unforeseeable event that one, no chance of having a disruption recovery plan preprepared :ugh:

[wiggy]

Be fair -Longhaul "en-masse move phase One" went OK ( I'm an arch cynic and even I was pleasantly surprised), but you are right, there's still a lot of traffic out of T4 that's got to fit into T5...that could be fun.

Then again T5 is already v tatty behind the scenes, guess there not a lot in the budget for routine care and cleaning.

[VAFFPAX]

The argument that BAA makes is reasonably compelling. When there is not much left in terms of capacity, what can you do when your ops are disrupted, other than cancel and divert? Some airlines diverted (i.e. EI), others just cancelled flights (BA).

Granted, BA could've told people why flights were cancelled, but then again, the customer advisors are probably so far down the chain that all they get is "due to technical problems" instead of "due to weather causing cancellations".

I've seen this in the past, except it was the other way round... the higher the report went, the shorter and more vague it got, until the CEO got a two line summary of what went on, and was nowhere NEAR what really happened. I would not be surprised if that's not been the case here.

S.

[k3lvc]

In reality my issue isn't with the lack of communication but their inability to handle what, to me, seems to be a frequent occurence of canx flights. From the BA North Lounge we were sent to Central Customer Service (gate 12-13 area) then to gate 21 then through passport control, baggage reclaim, into arrivals then back up to departures - a nice 20 min walk to arrive 100 metres from the Lounge I was in.

Being aware of the much vaunted Architects views of the building as providing a stress free environment I do hope he never has to travel through there and suffer a canx flight.

Once back in the check in area there was absolutely no system - the staff should have had plenty of notice that 1,000 pax were about to descend on them and have been organised accordingly with queues clearly marked instead of the free-for-all that occurred.

Maybe the circumstances are exceptional but twice in 3 visits tells me it's the norm.

[Carnage Matey!]

I've been there dozens of times and never experienced anything like that so I'd say my experience is probably the norm. Far from this being a T5 issue, do you think it would be any better handled if it had occurred in any of the other Heathrow terminals? Is your complaint that T5 isn't working or that the staff didn't know what they were doing?

[Final 3 Greens]

I'd say my experience is probably the norm

Yes, but as passengers we can only judge (and make our purchasing decisions) on what we experience.

I've been one (inbound) and thought the terminal was a disappointment.

If ZRH has an indicator to tell you the platform for the next shuttle,why can't T5 have one? I (amongst about 50 others) had to rush from one platform to the other to avoid missing the shuttle - completely ridiculous and avoidable.

Once landside, it was difficult to find anyone to get information, the signage wasn't great and I thought that the area after clearing customs was pretty small for the size of the terminal.

What was a major improvement was the handling of busses - top marks for that.

All in all, it's not bad, but given it is an April 2008 launch, I did expect better.

[k3lvc]

Is your complaint that T5 isn't working or that the staff didn't know what they were doing?


Spot on but BA are currently spending £££'s telling us that T5=BA=pleasant experience and, when it works, it is but at the first sign of trouble they don't appear to have a clue.

Your post reassures me that it's not the norm but a responsive Customer Service team in the event of difficulties rather than Jobsworths with clipboards would do far more to encourage me to continue using it.

[747-436]

Nothing to do with T5 on the 31st August, the thunderstorms would have had a similar affect if it was anywhere else.

In reality my issue isn't with the lack of communication but their inability to handle what, to me, seems to be a frequent occurence of canx flights. From the BA North Lounge we were sent to Central Customer Service (gate 12-13 area) then to gate 21 then through passport control, baggage reclaim, into arrivals then back up to departures - a nice 20 min walk to arrive 100 metres from the Lounge I was in.

Yes it is 100 metres but don;t forget you are in the departures area and can't just walk back through where you came from check in. If you are 'landing' then you need to go through the proper channels back to immigration, hence the long way round to go what is a short distance in reality.


Once back in the check in area there was absolutely no system - the staff should have had plenty of notice that 1,000 pax were about to descend on them and have been organised accordingly with queues clearly marked instead of the free-for-all that occurred.

Having 1000 pax descend on anyone at short notice isn't the easiest thing to handle at the best of times.

Maybe the circumstances are exceptional but twice in 3 visits tells me it's the norm.

It is certainly not the norm, just unlucky that you happended to be flying during these events. Hope it is easier if there is a next time.

[k3lvc]

Yes it is 100 metres but don;t forget you are in the departures area and can't just walk back through where you came from check in. If you are 'landing' then you need to go through the proper channels back to immigration, hence the long way round to go what is a short distance in reality.

Well aware of where I am and the legalities but it's still a bloody long walk

Having 1000 pax descend on anyone at short notice isn't the easiest thing to handle at the best of times.


which explains why they had 20 mins to get themselves organised yet couldn't.

I've no doubt I'll have to travel through the place again despite my (foreign) boss trying to ban me from using BA however I'll seriously consider waiting landside until the 35 min deadline if there's any doubt in my mind that the flight'll be going.

[PAXboy]

Listening to the radio in the car today and, changing channels came in half way through an advert 'T5 is working'. I heard how they had spoken to n people yesterday and how quick part of their transit through T5 had been. Personally, I would have waited to do the 'Working' campaign until after all the flights had transferred. They only need a small amount of disruption before it's complete and all this money will be down the drain and they will have more ridicule in the press.

I have not had to use T5 yet but the process of delivering my sister there five weeks ago revealed that many signs on the roads outside as much as those inside, were not in place and that staff with official uniforms on did not know where a particular place was and showed zero interest in trying to help me locate it. (Waving her hand) "It's over there ..." It wasn't and I was not impressed.

[Final 3 Greens]

Having 1000 pax descend on anyone at short notice isn't the easiest thing to handle at the best of times.

Severe weather warnings, several hours in advance?

Preprepared contingency plans?

Extra personnel called in?

Plans executed, pax disruption reduced?

Nothing to do with T5 on the 31st August, the thunderstorms would have had a similar affect if it was anywhere else.

?????? that is pure speculation.

LHR is runway constrained, whereas some other airports are not. So some other airports may have been able to maintain a hgiher flow rate post event, positively impacting the situation.

A terminal is only as good as the airport's ability to support movements and T5 is a modern terminal at an old (small) site and one must assess the whole package, not just the new shiny bit.

[dubh12000]

IMO the security check as you come in to T5 (from T4 for example) is poorly designed / laid out. If PAX are queing back out the automatic doors then it's wrong, and then you have to grab your stuff from the tray before it disappears through an automatic tray stacker on the other side.

[k3lvc]

Severe weather warnings, several hours in advance?

Preprepared contingency plans?

Extra personnel called in?

Plans executed, pax disruption reduced?



So how can a few SLF on here understand the commonsense of the above yet the UK's national carrier at it's home base can't :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Final 3 Greens]

I believe that BA understand it, but the state of their business means they have tight people plans that do not allow much flexibility.

However, let me say that this is my speculation and it is not fact based.

[PAXboy]

Whilst working in IT for 25 + years, I was in a very wide range of companies (both as full time and contractor and consultant). These were across the South East of England and in other countries. The one consistent factor was "How can we employ less people?"

From that stemmed shortcuts, cutbacks, a desire to automate as much as possible and then outsource the rest. When 'managers' were given budgetary control and made 'departmental profit centres' they quickly lost any interest in other parts of the business. Instead of seeing themselves as part of a process, they became the one-and-only. The idea that the company starts with (say) advertising and runs through ticket sales to the moment the client leaves an airport (over which you have little control but your staff will make YOUR client's progress smoother than any others) 10,000 miles away ... that is old history.

In short, the age old desire to lower the price so as to sell more and then make more. In this, the airline business is identical to every other. This may sound dismal and disheartning but I can only report on my 42 years of being a Pax.

[Carnage Matey!]

Severe weather warnings, several hours in advance?

Preprepared contingency plans?

Extra personnel called in?

Plans executed, pax disruption reduced?

Where does one suppose BA will be able to find a load of staff willing to come to work at short notice on a Sunday evening?

[VAFFPAX]

I have to second PAXboy here... people are inevitably cost centres whichever way you swing it. Having a lot of CS people on the ground (i.e. milling around in the terminal) is a big cost centre, especially if they are not really engaged in any activity. Having people on tap sounds nice, but it's kind of tough telling people that they would be on stand-by, and cannot be used for anything else lest they be called in (c/crew and f/crew are different here).

So CS people are kept to a minimum to keep the costs down. And in the challenging airline environment, that is a good thing (keeping the costs down). Whether that is good for the customers is another thing altogether, but the expectation is likely to be that the British consumer knows how to queue - patiently, while the foreign consumer will seek out the CS people to ask what the delay is.

It's a no-win situation. On the one hand we don't want BA to raise their prices to keep the shareholders happy and pay for more CS people, on the other hand we demand service, SERVICE DAMMIT, which only comes from having a lot of people on the ground, which costs money, which means prices go up, which... you get the drift.

S.

[Final 3 Greens]

Where does one suppose BA will be able to find a load of staff willing to come to work at short notice on a Sunday evening?

I don't, which is why I try to avoid flying BA.

VAFFPAX

Your argument sounds quite good, until you look at airlines like Southwest, who manage to provide both service and competitive (not necessarily very cheap) fares. Air Berlin are a pretty good carrier in Europe, IMHO, in this vein.

[VAFFPAX]

F3G, when you look at SWA, they don't have the amount of CS people on the ground though that BA would require with its 'innovative' do-it-yourself-at-your-leisure T5 design. When 'disaster' strikes (i.e. heavy storms that cause cancellations), it's EVERY HAND ON DECK, from managers downwards (or at least that's what I've been led to believe in the past). That is a different kind of culture than what we seem to see in Europe.

That's what makes SWA different to FR and other LoCos and other scheduled carriers. JetBlue themselves had to learn this very quickly in the winter storms that gripped the East Coast and pretty much blew their entire network apart, leaving thousands stranded in airports all over the place, and they were lambasted for not having sufficient CS personnel on the ground to answer questions and deal with the monumental FU that they were facing.

S.

[k3lvc]

When 'disaster' strikes (i.e. heavy storms that cause cancellations), it's EVERY HAND ON DECK, from managers downwards (or at least that's what I've been led to believe in the past).


This is exactly my point - it did not happen. Sure there were loads of people wandering round looking important but not much action (esp from the dragon who yelled at one challenging passenger that the delay was about to extend as most of the staff would be going home at 9pm - sorry luv but if you worked for me you'd have been sacked on the spot).

They (BA) had an opportunity to show that lessons had been learnt and world class service was now the norm and IMHO they failed. I'm not flying with a lo-cost operator, I'm flying with BA, our national carrier who I expect to treat me with a little respect.

One interesting note is that whilst this was going on there were 5 (presumably agency) staff twiddling their thumbs doing the liquid checks pre-security. Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.

[PAXboy]

Oh dear k3lvc
Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.you are starting to think in a logical fashion that would help the customer. Tsk. Tsk. :=

Seriously, I suspect the main reason is that they are employed by someone else and, because there is no cohesive approach to the customer (remember how much money they save with outsourcing!) then the contracts for those staff would prevent it.

The innovative thinker would have thought of that when the job descriptions were done. The staff could receive a bonus payment on each occasion that they are asked to help out in that way. It is now waaaay too late for logical thought. Whilst security staff have usually belonged to the airport rather than the carrier, it should not prevent agreements being set up in advance and called as needed.

[VAFFPAX]

Terminal security is generally not the responsibility of the carrier, but rather the owner of the facility. In this case it means BAA. Sorry, but that's how it is right now. And, to make things even more interesting, it's technically not BAA's responsibility either, but rather G4S, who has been contracted to provide it.

Of course, coordination between BAA (the infrastructure operator) and BA (the tenant) would be ideal, but we are not in an ideal world. It's BA's responsibility to notify their customers both land- and air-side that the flights are not leaving and that customers will need to go back to arrivals to receive their luggage back and then go air-side for further information.

Of course, such responsibility will be passed on like a hot potato because "it's not my job", and in the end the pax become annoyed and upset and those who do take the initiative are likely to get a bollocking from not only their colleagues but also their union and their superiors.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

S.

[747-436]

One interesting note is that whilst this was going on there were 5 (presumably agency) staff twiddling their thumbs doing the liquid checks pre-security. Now how about some real innovative thinking that if there are no pax passing through security (cos there are no flights) they are redeployed in some way to assist the 1,000 milling around in the check in area.

These are employed by BAA, and they are a pain in the **** doing the liquid and hand baggage checks so I would not trust them doing anything else!!!

The time of day didn't help either as a lot of shifts were finishing, not the customers problem but makes it harder to get people re booked and on their way to hotel / home.

[PAXboy]

A tad off topic but, I think, relevant in a sideways sort of a way (i.e. I have some spare time this morning)

The problem of outsourced staff working alongside others but not responding to the same line of command reminds me of the situation in September 2000 when UK lorry drivers were protesting about rising fuel prices. :rolleyes:

As I recall, there was some illegal flying picketing and secondary picketing at distribution centres such as Buncefield :E and tanker drivers were not going through the lines. The govt decided that, rather than send in the Police, they would use the 'soft' route. They called the oil companies and told them to have their drivers cross the illegal picket lines.

If I recall correctly, the oil companies found that the UK drivers had been outsourced to an Italian company who had sub-contracted them to a UK company ... It took a couple of days for the message from the UK oil big-wigs to get round the loop of UK-Italy-UK to give the drivers instructions when they were, effectively, parked outside!!! After that, I suspect that the chain of command was smoothed out a bit. But that is how all major companies are today - including govt. It is very rare that a manager has direct control of all their staff.

Being self-employed, I have been known to ignore my own instructions ... ;)

[GwynM]

Thursday morning, 6am, 5 minutes from a taxi drop off to the BA lounge for a cup of tea and a bacon butty (I can forgive the lack of brown sauce this time!)

Arriving back at 19.30, 15 minute wait for steps to arrive because there wasn't a space for us (had it been raining at Heathrow again?), but once on the bus it was about 3 minutes from getting off at the gate to the Heathrow Express.

i.e. it's great sometimes, but other times it can be a pain when you're at a remote stand

[k3lvc]

GwynM

Absolutely spot on - when it works it's world class (well almost) but when it doesn't it's a nightmare. Just glad I'm flying back into LGW tonight instead of T5 judging by the weather forecast.

[PAXboy]

That is the full story - it's a lottery even when the place is working at 50%. corrections on that percentage are welcome.

The number of remote stands is one of the biggest signs that there was not enough space to build the terminal to meet requirements.

[manintheback]

Flew out last Saturday afternoon returned yesterday evening. About 4 mins to check in and through security. Coming back, 30 minutes from plane docking through to exiting customs with hold luggage - very impressed.
One thing noticeable though is it already seems to be getting crowded in the departure level.

[Globaliser]

The number of remote stands is one of the biggest signs that there was not enough space to build the terminal to meet requirements.I thought it was an indicator of how cash-strapped HAL is - aren't the "remote stands" largely the (built) stands for (unbuilt) T5C? Not that I'm particularly happy about the reported further delay to T5C to redesign it to include more A380-capable gates, now that BA has ordered some.

As for personal experiences:-

I was "severely irritated" last week by having to wait 30 seconds for someone to check my passport (flying to JNB) before I could go through security, but otherwise my progress from Tube to lounge was dictated only by the speed at which I was prepared to walk and punch buttons on a screen.

On the return this morning, a real irritation from our stand being occupied by another aircraft - presumably a late arrival from somewhere. That was about 10 minutes' waiting. And one IRIS machine out of order. Otherwise, same speed limitations on my journey, with the addition of a loo stop.