PVR vs Return of Service

[moggi]

Ok chaps, just making sure that I have all the info as I prepare a PVR request. As I am overseas with no access to Intranet, and hence no access to the online JSPs and APs, perhaps those in the know might be able to offer some advice on the following:

1) Having requested an exit date on one's PVR application, can ACOS mng release you before that date? I am on AFPS 75, so eligible for a pension at 16/38 point, but have a new style PC until age 40. Hence I have to PVR on at my 15 year point, requesting a exit date after 16 years service exactly. If ACOS Mng throw me out a few months short, I will lose my pension... not good!

2) I will have to return to the UK for a few final months before leaving. If they refresh me on the aircraft I left 3 years ago. Is there a Return of Service issue? What type of refresher incurs a ROS?

Any info gratefully received, as would a full copy of AP3393 so I can trawl that myself! Cheers!

[Tiger_mate]

My understanding is that it is only after your initial OCU there is a mandated return of service and even this has been in doubt recently. The system tried to get ab-initio students to sign the contract and to cut a long story short the paperwork never got off the ground.

Subsequent OCUs and refresher courses do not hold a mandated ROS and one of many precidents is the Nimrod Air Eng who PVR whilst on the OCU to leave shortly after.

If you want a specific exit date, why not NGR. Notice of General Release cannot be rescinded once you sign unless the system are gagging to keep you, but you choose the date that the ID Card gets handed in after +18 months service. I see this as a gentlemans way out in which you have time to fully exploit the various resettlement options.

Once you sign a PVR you cannot subsequently get an OOA*. This is in writing although ACOS Mannning have selective blindness and will try it on.
* A prebriefed OOA will be carried through.

[c130jbloke]

Hi Moggi,

Had a similar problem when I PVRd. When you submit the app, do NOT insert a date to leave, state that you wish to leave at your IPP. Then see if their reckoning of dates tally with yours (clue: yours will probably be correct). That way if there is a bun fight you argue that you wished to go at a career point, not a point in time.

As for the refresher with months to do :=:=. Good luck, but with hrs getting chopped everywhere, your line mgr will have a right royal time explaining that one. That said, if you can demonstrate a service need for you to refresh, then crack on and the best of british.

C130JB

[Pontius Navigator]

On refreshers, things may have changed but there was an unwritten rule that aircrew would not get an OCU after the age of 50 as they had a 6 months I-Go right. This was later dropped to 45 as there was an increased risk of failure.

One Nav over 50 blagged his way back to Hercs, without an OCU, on the condition that he passed his Cat ride. He did.

Also the ROS used to be five years out of training or one tour on subsequent OCUs. However we had a Nimrod Eng who PVRd as soon as he left the OCU and later an AEO ditto. However that was why they brought in the 50+ rule.

As I say that was some time ago.

[Tiger_mate]

The 6 months notice is not only after age 50. The same rule (in writing) includes 30 years military service, and therefore will be applicable to some a few years before age 50. For me it applied at age 48, or 47 and 11 months to be pedantic. ACOS do not shout about this one, but I read it very recently when considering options.

I may be an exception to the unwritten rules but I am likely to complete 2* x OCUs within the age timeframes given. (ie final 6 years of service to age 55) Aside from an unwritten rule being worthless, it is surely ageism, and therefore probably illegal. Hence why 'unwritten' I suppose.

*One is a dead cert as it is just around the corner and I suppose the second could be a 'refresher' rather then full OCU.

PS

You PVR on JPA and NGR in writing in the Chief Clerks Office. (The old fashioned way) witnessed & countersigned by a Commisioned Officer (OC PSF)

[dallas]

moggi

The way to avoid the Service getting rid of you early and risking the pension qualification is to put your notice in, not PVR. The difference is you get to state your exit date and they can't change it. I think there is a qualifying period - I think you have to have done a certain number of years - and the date you put on the form has to be 18 months+ in the future. Not long after you submit, PMA write back and agree the date, which is then cast in stone.

[ProfessionalStudent]

If you're on a 40yr new style PC, I assume you signed on from a SSC. I thought a) everyone who did that automatically went on to AFPS05 and b) your IPP was automatically slipped to your 40th birthday...

Also, if you sign on for longer, usually any exit before that point means you have to PVR (as you are doing) and therefore get clobbered with a "on PVR" pension rate, even if this date ties in with your 38/16 point. I'm pretty sure this is the case for PA who want to leave once they've signed the paperwork - ie between 38 and 43 when you've "earned" PA pension rights(even if you decide to leave at your option after all). Happy to be corrected on this one, as it could still be relevant to me...!

Tiger Mate

I thought the NGR option disappeared under JPA...?

...and blimey, aren't you old!! ;-)

[Tiger_mate]

NGR is not found on JPA at all. However a former Chief Clk advised me that it still exists but is done on genuine paper!! with signatures as well. Info is now 6 weeks old and a lot can change in that time.

...and blimey, aren't you old!! ;-)

Counting the days :)

[Climebear]

NGR is only available to the non-commissioned members of the Service.

[endplay]

Shouldn't have done so well at skool then!

[moggi]

Someone accepting a new style PC has the right to stay on AFPS75 - they cannot force you to change your pension.

Dallas, if I hand my notice in, would this mean I would not be penalised with a PVR rate gratuity and pension?

If anyone could take 5 mins to send me an AP3393, I'd really appreciate it.

Also, has anyone got a good number for someone to talk to for pensions advice, as I would like to double confirm what I have read in the online docs. I find it shocking that these days we only have the JPA muppets to turn to, and the Forces Pensions Society, which one has to become a member for. Hardly the best support is it? (But that's a different thread :rolleyes: )

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Moggi,
Good point, who can you turn to for advice now?

If you PVR can you stipulate a date to leave? I'm not talking about going early but doing the full 12 months notice to qualify for the larger pension. If they said I can go early it would screw that up.

Would it be safer to wait until qualifying for the larger pension and then PVR and hope to be let out early?

[s70a9]

Now, this might look a tad controversial, but how about asking your desk officer. You are probably not the 1st PVR he has had to deal with and you never know he might be able to help you out.

Then again you could base your decision on a rumour network.

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Thanks s70 for your wisdom. Short answer is that I have. He said he was new to the job and it was really an admin question. He 'thought' 12 months would be max and could be shorter which could see me in the dwang.

A rumour network might actually have people who have been in the same situation and therefore able to offer advice. You can glean a lot of useful info on this site amongst all the sarky, snidey responses.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scape, off the wall, but if you can't get a useful answer from your present desk officer could you trace his predecessor?

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

PN, I really, really wouldn't want to trust what he said!

I guess the problem is getting a straight answer from someone who hasn't the depth of experience and has limited time in post. Also, in this case the deskie said to qualify for the higher pension you have to do 2 years substantive. However a senior admin officer says it is 2 years from when you start getting paid (ie any acting time) as this is EU law.

So who do you believe and who has the definitive answer? I don't want to make a costly mistake. This network does give access to folks who may have recently been in the situation and was worth asking the question.

[moggi]

How much do you trust your desk officer? I'm pretty sure that if mine got a whiff of the fact that I was shortly to submit a PVR request, he wouldn't be considering me for the location or posts he is currently. He might decide that tasty one year post pushing paper around High Wycombe might I have just found a candidate!

In short, I don't think one can count on one's "Career Manager" for impartial advice.

[cynicalint]

Scape,
I understood it to be three years from acting date or two from subs; however, once subs, the time spent as acting counts towards as well.

[120class]

Time spent in an acting rank accrues 1/3 of the difference in pension between the acting and substantive ranks per year up to a maximum of 3 years. This principle also holds true for substantive except that the accrural rate is 1/2 per year. Fairly sure that the time spent is pro-rated into days.

Ask Admin Wg for the pension regs and it is all there. Incidently my old desk officer didn't know anything about it either.

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Thanks for the gen. Depending on your relationship with your deskie it could be somewhat risky. Still not sure if you set your own date for the final day when PVRing or if that could be decided/changed for you. I'm a few thousand miles away from my admin organisation but will get hold of the regs for myself. Appreciate the guidance