Sir Glen Speaks!

[insty66]

On the BBC so it must be true.

BBC NEWS | UK | With the RAF in Iraq and Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7589374.stm)

[dallas]

Everything sounds really good; people on OOA are all really happy and life is easy back in the UK. Oh yeah, and 41,000 are enough - apparently.

Maybe I'll stay, after all. :hmm:

[mick2088]

The RAF has three Reapers? I thought it had two with a third on the way (to replace the one that crashed) and the 10 extra Reaper plan had been abandoned.

[Chugalug2]

CAS:
"I'm certainly concerned about resources," he admits. "We have down-sized the air force to 41,000 people, and that has made us as lean, I believe, as we should be.....
The government decides how much money defence gets and it is our job to spend it as effectively as possible, and try to maintain the balance in our core structure to fight today's wars - and to prepare for tomorrow's wars as well."
Well that's you off the hook then Sir Glenn, it's all the fault of those tight fisted politicians! Not in my book I'm afraid. When things started to get bad, let alone bloody awful as they are now, it was your duty on behalf of your subordinates to draw a line in the sand. Thus far and no further, with the clear implication that if resources were still with-held you would complain loud clear and publicly, and if still no heed was taken you would resign, loud clear and publicly, with the further implication that you would continue your tirade in retirement, loud clear and publicly. Fanciful, unrealistic, naive? Perhaps, but very compelling for the young men and women for whom YOU are responsible. What good would it have done? Who knows - it's never been tried in the Royal Air Force!

[philhird]

Priceless BBC- talking about problems with tristars and showing footage of Omni DC-10...nice

[insty66]

Priceless BBC- talking about problems with tristars and showing footage of Omni DC-10...nice

That was exactly my thought:hmm:

[Chugalug2]

Mileandahalf:

Chug are you talking about.......loyalty?

Damned right I am. It's a two way thing, demonstrated in my time by my bosses, over and over again. Why did they do it? Because they KNEW their duty to their subordinates. I hope, but doubt, that is still the case of commanders, or more correctly subordinate commanders, today. Sir Glenn is not a Commander, nor are his CinCs, nor are his AOCs. They are managers, always have been, always will be. However they still have a responsibility to their subordinates in general and to their Service in particular. He and they have reneged on that responsibility. They should all go and be replaced by those more capable than they. There are none? Oh yes there are, there always are, and time of war is when you have to find them and promote them. Time is of the essence as the lawyers say.

[Vox Populi]

Priceless BBC- talking about problems with tristars and showing footage of Omni DC-10...nice

Ah, the field sport of Pprune: BBC bashing.

How about:

Ms Wyatt wanted to mention the Tristar / Air Bridge issue, but they had no Tristars to film. So they framed a shot of a similar transport aircraft such that it looked reasonably generic. It was that or fail to mention the issue at all (you do need some pictures for TV you know, you can't just talk over black).

Not really fair to bash her for that, in a very nicely crafted 7 min piece.

vp

[John Purdey]

Chugalug2. Please tell this civilian from which pinnacle of high responsibility do you feel qualified to criticize, by name and publically, your CAS when you know that he is unable to reply?

[nigegilb]

Are you part of the new Stasi or something?

I hope you are not upsetting Torpy as well by spelling his name wrong....

[Alber Ratman]

I like Omni Air DC10's!

[Chugalug2]

John Purdey: Chugalug2. Please tell this civilian from which pinnacle of high responsibility do you feel qualified to criticize, by name and publically, your CAS when you know that he is unable to reply?

Well the same one as you I guess, being as I'm a civilian as well. If you are minded to defend Sir Glenn's record then please go ahead. And he is able to reply and should, not to me as I am of no account whatsoever (thought I'd get that one in before you did!), but to the groundswell of concern at the state of the RAF from within and without. It is not necessarily entirely his fault, but it is his responsibility and needs urgently attending to. As his "attending" has got us to where we are today, I would suggest that future "attending" be best left to someone more able. For just as I am of no account, nor in comparison to the security of this nation and the future of the Royal Air Force is he, nor any other individual.
You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
P.S. I know you're going to make a big deal about me hiding behind an anonymous tag, so game set and match to you. It never occurred to me to register my real name as my user one, as you (presumably) and Nigel have done, perhaps I should have. But I made my bed and must lie on it, I'm certainly not going to change horses now because you say so! (Horses, beds....???).

[The Real Slim Shady]

That poor Harrier pilot Ben needs some rations!

Are you lads all on diets?

[John Purdey]

Chugalug and Mileandahalf. Before I wind my neck in, as you so graciously put it, I have to say that you contributions remind me of the old days, just before the bar closed in the NAAFI. Regards. JP

[John Purdey]

Mileandahalf. The answer is a simple interest in fair play. If Torpy or others in similar positions are to be critised in the media, they are usually offered the opportunity to reply. Even if they are not, then at least they know who it is having a go at them. This is obviously not the case in Prune, is it.?
What is more, I think you forget that Torpy and others are very constrained by ministers in what they may or may not say. Do you not recall the incident when CGS (the present very good one) was thought to have spoken out of turn, and was thefore recalled post haste to the minister's office in MOD to explain himself, leaving his wife behind to take the graduation parade at Dartmouth?
Apologies for the minor typing error; I thought we were on an intellectual plane a little higher than quibbles like that.
With all good wishes. JP

[Chugalug2]

John Purdey:

What is more, I think you forget that Torpy and others are very constrained by ministers in what they may or may not say. Do you not recall the incident when CGS (the present very good one) was thought to have spoken out of turn, and was thefore recalled post haste to the minister's office in MOD to explain himself, leaving his wife behind to take the graduation parade at Dartmouth?


Well that's what the problem is isn't it JP? CGS is not constrained and gets his message across (then gets a smacked wrist, and verbal no doubt from Mrs CGS), CAS is constrained and simply gets the "DS solution" across. Of course there is a cost to "speaking out" but not half as much as the cost of having to use kit that is unfit for purpose when at war! Time for a change in the higher command of the RAF before there is no RAF!
Thanks for manning the fort Mileandahalf, I'm afraid I was absent from my post. Think anyone noticed?

[barnstormer1968]

Gentlemen, I can see your debate is ongoing. Can I please add my two-penneth worth please.
From an outsiders point of view I can both agree with JP and disagree with him.
Very few folks in the aviation world would ever dismiss any of JP's views on avaition (and especially in the VTOL world), and indeed many would look upon him as a world expert, BUT I also think that in your later career JP, you were somewhat "spoiled".

For example, you were listened to by senior figures, and could often have your point of view both listened to, and "heard". I think one of the big gripes in today's British forces is that no-one is listened to, resulting in a feeling of low morale, frustration and also helplessness.

I also think that times, and the attitude of modern management are different. JP, you may well remember how one of the ground staff (not sure on that point, but not a TP) knew well in advance of the TP's that the Harrier's/Kestrel's outrigger wheels would wobble in use. He was listened to..... Imagine if he (and others) had been ignored, and had to watch crews struggle with this problem for the next 30 years!

It is also possible that there is some "rose coloured vision" going on, now that it is not your life on the line (no offence meant. Maybe similar to how is is easier to babysit someone elses children, as you know you can give them back).

As for JP being a windup merchant, I always thought that was an essential quality of a TP.:}

Barnstormer1968

[lightningmate]

barnstormer,

I think you have confused John Purdey with John Farley.

lm

[Chugalug2]

Wise words Barnstormer. I don't enjoy posting as I have done on this thread, but when you follow other threads that have displayed the woeful circumstances in UK Military Airworthiness on the Nimrod, Hercules and Chinook fleets alone, as well as unacceptable administrative shortcomings causing further stress to those forever being sent "sausage side" one gets the sickening feeling that a point of no return has been passed, and where to now? Perhaps the worst aspect of all, and the most "unfixable" is the rush for the doors by experienced and skilled personnel. The CAS might as well accompany his platitudes with a lyre given the strong smell of Rome burning! I must admit not being aware of JP's illustrious career as a TP. Perhaps he might air his opinion of the situation where an aircraft type (the Chinook HC2) was in squadron service despite not being released by Boscombe Down who grounded theirs the day before the Mull tragedy? I know that wasn't under this CAS but is symptomatic of the trend into territory that was unimaginable in my day.

[Sand4Gold]

The Harrier Development Story - by John Farley OBE AFC CEng

John Farley's Lecture (http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/history_farley.htm)


A very good read........


AA

[barnstormer1968]

Thank you for that lightningmate.
Yes my mistake.
Bit obvious looking at it now (re John Farley). :}
I will delete my post if anyone wants me to, I just haven't done it yet, or your comment would not make sense to others.

I will now go and take myself to the "step inn" have words with myself:ouch:

Barnstormer1968

(Talking of Purdey, does anyone still have fond memories of the "THE NEW AVENGERS")

[ORAC]

Ah, the field sport of Pprune: BBC bashing. How about:

Ms Wyatt wanted to mention the Tristar / Air Bridge issue, but they had no Tristars to film. So they framed a shot of a similar transport aircraft such that it looked reasonably generic. It was that or fail to mention the issue at all (you do need some pictures for TV you know, you can't just talk over black). Have you ever heard of the concept of footage in a library so it's available when needed?

if the BBC haven't got library footage of every type of aircraft in the RAF inventory then they are doubly incompetent.

[John Purdey]

My original comments were about old-fashioned loyalty, but as so often happens in these threads the topic has run into the sand. With all good wishes. JP

[Chugalug2]

John Purdey, the man you are appealing loyalty for is Sir Glenn Torpy! Loyalty was the very issue that started this exchange, loyalty for Sir Glenn yes, but loyalty also from Sir Glenn in exchange. That is, if you like, the covenant of leadership, and leaders have to be prepared to pay the price of that loyalty from time to time. Your post showed that CGS is prepared to do so. We wait and wait for the CAS to do the same. As for sand, none around here, it's all nice and comfy here in blighty isn't it? So that's all right then!

Barnstormer, don't feel bad. You "manned up" as I believe is the expression. Would that others in the higher echelons learned that art! As to The New Avengers, are yes that I do remember; Patrick MacNee and the delicious Joanna Lumley, AKA John Steed & Purdey. I say, I've just noticed something, could it be? No, surely not!

[John Purdey]

Chugalug2. No it isn't!! Regards JP

[cockney steve]

[QUOTE][spent defence money procuring equipment at twice the cost of a cheaper, battle proven alternative, from outside of the ever-more-expensive UK industry./QUOTE]

A simplistic view!...you forget the rates,vat, NI contributions etc. generated by the factories and their employees....then there's the transport infrastructure....fuel duty, road-tax...more vat....all creating revenue back into the government's other pocket! and keeping officialdom employed.

Unfortunately, the inept "civil-service" (an oxymoron ,if ever there was one) is a self-serving beaurocracyand until people are held truly accountable, will continue to be so.

Were there to be proper sanctions-sacking, loss of pension rights etc. applied to the incompetent, we ,as tax-payers, might get better value for money.
This scandalous story is an illustration of just what's wrong with this country's bloated incompetent administration......unfortunately, anyone who does have the intelligence AND integrity to question the status-quo............

[Winco]

John P

What is it about Sir Glenn that you obviously admire so much?

Is it his leadership? His loyalty to his troops? Maybe it's his aviating skills as a pilot? Whatever it is, I can state that you are wrong on ALL counts.

And before you start questioning me about my loyalty blah, I can tell you that the Air Force had many many years of loyalty from me (and countless thousands of others too) but in the main, the loyalty coming back was abysmal to say the least.

Sir Glenn Torpy has shown himself to be a poor leader, with an inability to stand up for his troops and return the loyalty that has been given to him. I have yet to hear him utter a single word about the cuts that have destroyed 'his' Air Force and left it in the pathetic mess it is today. His single claim-to-fame is the procurement of hundreds of Typhoons - just what the boys need in the sand pit eh?

Why has he not had the guts to stand up in public and criticise the appalling defence cuts. (Probably because he's looking for a nice little job at BAEs maybe??) Why has he never complained about the lack of manpower, both aircrew and groundcrew? and why, having lost Nimrod 230, did he say that the aircraft was 'as safe as it needs to be' Just a pathetic and spineless statement from a pretty spineless and useless CAS. Sorry Glenn, it's time you hung up your flying suit.

Oh and as for his aviating skills - I'm afraid you'll have to ask a Fast Jet Mate about that. But, we all know that rank bears no reflection to someones aviating abilities, so I doubt if he is particularly talented in that area either.

[Room40]

Unfortunately, the inept "civil-service" (an oxymoron ,if ever there was one) is a self-serving beaurocracyand until people are held truly accountable, will continue to be so.

Were there to be proper sanctions-sacking, loss of pension rights etc. applied to the incompetent, we ,as tax-payers, might get better value for money.

Just wanted to ask if this regime would apply to the incompetent among the uniformed services as well?

Room 40 (former civil servant who tried hard to be 'ept' and whose excrement is gripped by this sort of gereralised drivel)

[John Purdey]

Wingco. Calm down. Just as well you can hide behind the anonymity of Pprune, isn't it? What on earth has the man done to you to deserve such venom? As to the name Purdey (see above) it is also the name of a well-known shot-gun. I am about to load both barrels in the hope of bumping into.........!!!!!! JP

[Compressorstall]

Another good knock the RAF and slag off Typhoon comment, good one Winco. Having seen Sir Glenn at close quarters and the political wrangling he is forced to endure, he does stand up for his guys and he does lead, perhaps not in the way you expect that is for those slightly lower down the chain to demonstrate. As far as I recall, he isn't the one who committed us to Typhoon and perhaps you should look higher for blame (and a little further back in procurement terms) and then it may all become clear.

[cazatou]

Winco,

I must confess that I never realised that you could be an Boeing 747 Captain with just a CPL - times have obviously changed!!

Perhaps, though, as you apparently currently fly a 747; perhaps you could explain your expertise in the Man Management aspects of being CAS - in particular your expertise in dealing with the current occupant of No 10.

No; not Acacia Avenue - Downing Street!!!

PS;

How many CAS's have you flown with?

I have flown with 3 who were piloting the aircraft with me (a Spec Aircrew Flt Lt) as Captain. None of the 3 had ever flown that particular aircraft type before. I would, however, point out that I was a Flight Instructor/Examiner and IRE on that Type.

Moreover, in each case said CAS wanted to hear from myself, and also my Flt Cdr Navigator, exactly what we thought were the problems facing the RAF and what were the issues that affected people on a day to day basis. The ALM and Cpl Stewards were also consulted on aspects that affected them.

How often do your Company Execs come and ask you about your concerns???

PPS

I do remember getting an apoplectic Command Accountant on the phone regarding the rejection of a claim for a Boarding House bill (there were not any Hotels in that particular Town) after Gp had revised our itinerary to collect a Chinese Delegation in the early hours of the next morning. The CinC rejected the viewpoint of the Accountants that there was nothing in QR's that said you were allowed to go to sleep during the day!!

I merely said that I would raise his concerns with the C in C when we were flying together the next day. There was some form of strangled cry and the line went dead.

[Archimedes]

His single claim-to-fame is the procurement of hundreds of Typhoons - just what the boys need in the sand pit eh?

Er.... The requirement for Typhoon was decided prior to the SDR. Without checking, he was probably Staish at Bruggen

The first Tranche of Typhoons was signed years ago, I think Sir Peter Squire was CAS at the time.

The second Tranche was ordered when Sir Jock Stirrup was CAS.

Number of Typhoons procured under current CAS? Zero.

If the Tranche 3 negotiations conclude while he's still CAS and we end up buying some/all of them, then he'll have overseen the ordering of 88, largely, though, because his hands are tied by inter-governmental agreements signed while he was commanding a squadron.

[cazatou]

Winco,

Come on, don't be shy.

Comment one way of the other!!!!!!

Of course, we all know that you cannot substantiate in any way, shape or form the theories you have postulated.

Post your proof - or admit you were WRONG

[Hardly Worth it]

Which aircraft was he in for the airborne interview ?

[cazatou]

Winco




STILL WAITING !!!!

[Winco]

Cazatou,

Firstly, do try to give people just a little bit of time to respond - not all of us can sit on Prune all day long you know, some of us do have another life!

Secondly, don't show your ignorance by suggesting that I fly a 747 on a CPL alone, simply because that's all I've put on my public forum, thats just stupid, and as an ex pilot you should know better. If you would like me to list all of my licences and tickets for different aircraft, then drop me a PM and when I've got nothing better to do, then I'll gladly pass them all on to you.

My company execs regularly discuss things with me (and all the other pilots) and I'm pleased to say that in the main, they not only listen but act.

I'm sorry, but I have no experience in dealing with the occupant of No 10 at all.

Now then, if you are an ex RAF pilot, instead of me justifying why I think Torpy is a poor leader, why don't you come out and tell us what he has done that you feel displays the leadership expected of the head of the RAF, and why you disagree with me on this, and many many others.

There are countless examples of poor leadership, and you don't need me or anyone else to list them for you. Would I be correct in thinking that perhaps you would say that the CDS was WRONG with his public outburst against financial cuts, manpower cuts, equipment cuts that are affecting the services??

I think that I have flown with 4 or 5 CAS's over the years - but I'm not sure what your point is here? Yes they will all listen to you, and yes they will all show keen interest, but how many of them responded to any complaints you might have had? And I note that you didn't comment on their aviating skills, only on how good they were at listening?

The point is, we're not talking about a bloody travel claim here man, we are talking about the lives of our men and women, in theatre, who are being put at risk by a lack of support, equipment and Christ knows what else. I agree that is NOT the fault of CAS, but what do we hear from him about the shortages..............NOT A LOT!

Now, if you think the Sir Glenn is a good CAS, then you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. However, the vast majority of the rank and file of todays RAF are sick and tired of having a CAS, who wouldn't say 'Boo' to a goose! Nevermind stand up for 'his' boys and girls.

And finally, his handling of the Nimrod loss sums him up IMHO. I, for one, will never forgive him for saying that the aircraft is as safe as it needs to be. That was shameful and and shows a really poor sense of judgement, wouldn't you agree?

Now then, I'm away for the next couple of days, so if I don't answer any of your posts withing 10 minutes, try to refrain from further posts with very large writing please - I'm not blind yet thank you.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Been biting my tongue for days but imagine my surprise at finding JP and Cazatou taking this stance..........................:rolleyes:

[John Purdey]

Winco. So you speak for the great majority of today's rank and file in the RAF. I had no idea we were in such distinguished company. JP

[Pure Pursuit]

CAS lost the vote when he stated that the Nimrod, "was as safe as it needed to be."

A bloody awful statement from a man you would expect more from. He was done nothing for the RAF since becoming CAS, absolute zip.

Asking you are during a flight is fine, shame nothing is done about your concerns. "It's about my quarter sir" "Medical care is in decline sir" "Sir, our SH are buggered, can we get some more & not just a few for a short term fix?"

Shame is, the chaps in waiting for the job will be just as spineless...You have to be in order to get the job. CGS slipped through the net however, he has been quickly sidelined since the shock discovery of his ability to speak out.

Plenty of guys from the branch I'm in are jumping ship (not sure about the rest of you) and nobody is trying to stop them.

Why stay in a job when the MD could not give a toss or, is unable to make a difference (either way, that makes him totally redundant)? It's made even worse by the fact that CDS is RAF too. VERY brave of him to speak out AFTER his job was secured for another 3 years...:ugh:

[Compressorstall]

Perhaps it's the increasing politicization of the higher levels..? If you are going to get high up in the service, you have to play the game perhaps in the hope that when you get there, you will be able to change things from within. Then when you get there, you realise that if you tell the truth and speak out you get sidelined. Having seen some of the manoeuvring that goes on at that level, the amount of back-stabbing and a**e covering that goes on is phenomenal because everyone is scared of being found wanting. Perhaps if we hadn't agonised over things and spent time looking over shoulders, we would have sorted Iraq out, be well on the way in Afghanistan and have a procurement system that is more coherent that TK Max and we wouldn't be existing on UORs.
Anyway, when I asked CAS for assistance on something, he actually took direct action and sorted things out to the benefit of the people I was working with. Not terribly notable I know, but it does show that when he was operating at a non-political level, he was ready to swing into action. I don't envy him operating amongst the cesspool of Government.

[minigundiplomat]

Winco. So you speak for the great majority of today's rank and file in the RAF. I had no idea we were in such distinguished company. JP


He seems to have summed up things for me pretty well. As I am still serving, I guess his points must have a degree of relevance, as opposed to your rose tinted nostalgia. I think it's time you moved onto one of the civil forums. Your vast corporate experience will undoubtably be much sought after there.

I personally think CAS is a New Labour stoolie, who has done absolutely nothing for the RAF other than hasten a great deal of departures.

[Biggus]

First of all, I don't have a particular axe to grind, but a couple of points....

1) Anyone who assumes a position of responsibilty puts themselves in the firing line for people to 'have a pop' at. The fact that they can't always reply just goes with the territory. So in the same way that the England football manager is no doubt criticised in some football forum, CAS can expected to be criticised/praised/commented upon in a forum containing a large number of RAF members, both past and present. IT GOES WITH THE JOB.....

2) How would people define the Sir Glenn years as CAS....? It seems to me in these sort of cases it boils down to one or two things. For example, if we take Prime Ministers, to me Thatcher is Falklands War, reining in the power of the Trade Unions, rampant capitalism, while Blair is Spin and Iraq.... So how would you define the Sir Glenn years as CAS, and would it be for what he has done (the rise of Air Power doctrine?), or what he hasn't done (spoken out in public)....? And previous CASs for comparison......?

[The Helpful Stacker]

The Sir Glenn years as CAS, hmmm....

In a single word, disappointing.

At a time when the RAF needed someone strong at the reigns (and not just 'strong behind closed doors') the RAF found itself blessed with a bureaucrat, seemingly more concerned with feathering the nest than showing the kind of loyalty to his troops that is expected from them to the hierarchy.

Happily I'm no longer in a position where this puppet is my CEO though I feel for those I've left behind under his care.

[Time Flies]

...saw a decrease in number of personnel, morale and capability.

...saw an increase in PVRs, OOAs and number of Air Ranks.



4 out of the above 6 points can be proved using figures available to us all.

Morale and capability are more subjective but I'd happily argue on both counts.

[Chugalug2]

Pure Pursuit:

Shame is, the chaps in waiting for the job will be just as spineless...You have to be in order to get the job.

Why? Because it's always been like that? Is that how Tescos select their SEOs? I think that cosy system rather went to the wall in WWII. We are once again at war and we need the best people in charge. Just to be really controversial, if the RAF seriously cannot muster someone from within fit for the job, which I very much doubt (and he/she does not need to be a pilot, or even aircrew IMHO), then look outside. Trenchard did the job well enough didn't he? Maybe another airminded senior Army officer would meet the bill. At least their track record for standing up for themselves and their subordinates inspires some confidence. Someone has to knock the Royal Air Force back into shape, and that someone has to be at the top!

[Pure Pursuit]

Chugalug2,

the ministers choose the Chiefs of Staff and lets face it, they will never select anyone who may be seen as a man or woman who will make waves during their stay in office.

Tescos etc are driven by profit and will always seek out the best man for the job.

[Chugalug2]

"the ministers choose the Chiefs of Staff". Then change that system! The Government may resent every pound spent on Defence, but then they can see that UK Defence is now poor value for money. The one good thing that Brown did was to cut loose the Bank of England. Maybe it is time to do the same with the selection of the Chiefs. "Yes Men" are no good for anyone, including those they say "Yes" to. The present system has degenerated into a hopeless quagmire. It has to be reformed at MOD and Senior Officer level of all three Armed Services, and that reform must start at the very top.

[In Tor Wot]

Chugalug2:
Is that how Tescos select their SEOs?

No and I bet that no other major company/industry would select a CEO based upon his hand/eye co-ordination at an early age either!

If we really need a CAS that is the right person for the job, why must they wear a brevet? (I know, I'll get my coat!)

[Chugalug2]

InTorWot:

If we really need a CAS that is the right person for the job, why must they wear a brevet? (I know, I'll get my coat!)

Well please don't do so on my account ITW, as I quite agree with you. It seems to me that hand eye co-ordination can be a real impediment if it gets in the way of other requirements, like moral courage, empathy, selflessness, you know, all that stuff that real leaders have! If the RAF turns its backs on 9/10ths of its talent to put forward its "candidate" then I suggest its problems start right there. Maybe even a case for some Senior Blanket Stacker wannabe to take them to law over? No, let's not go there again. This is not about human rights, it's about the future or lack of it of the Royal Air Force, it needs sorting before the next Buggins whose turn it is gets the top job.

[A2QFI]

My perception, rightly or wrongly in the 70s, was that some pretty unlikely people were getting promoted because they were the only ones who hadn't PVRd or gone at an option point. These promoted people are now 3 or 4 ranks higher and the process continues. Many of those with a bit of get up and go have got up and gone!

[cornish-stormrider]

A a not so humble ex-sootie working hard in civvy street, my opinion of CAS is that he would not be fit to answer the phone i reception, let alone a position of trust.

[Pure Pursuit]

A2QFI,

I quite agree with you, many of the 'good guys' become frustrated and leave for a company that offers proper rewards for their significant efforts.

The guys at the top will always be wearing wings, never going to change and, to be honest, I'm not sure it should! Would a FC, ATC or and engineer do a better job? I doubt it as anybody who gets to the top has 'played the game' and chosen the career path well. People who do that, cannot have the interests of those around them truly at heart.

[Chugalug2]

Pure Pursuit:

Would a FC, ATC or and engineer do a better job?

Should not your question be could they possibly do a worse job, PP? As to your observation that anyone who gets to the top ipso facto has not the interests of his subordinates truly at heart, I would suggest there are many examples that prove you wrong. Let us be clear though, those who occupy the post of Chief of the Air Staff, or for that matter other Air Officer appointments, should primarily have the interests of the Royal Air Force and the National interest at heart. The bottom line is that the interests of those who serve in the RAF are secondary to those two and in the final analysis sacrificed to them. Military leaders send their subordinates to war, often to die. Their side of that sombre bargain is they fight like hell for the interests of those they so send. That is why Bomber Harris was a great leader. I do not see his like around these days. Time we started looking, everywhere.

[KeepItTidy]

Well I too am currently serving and I too have to agree 100% with Winco on this one, but Ive never had the chance to say my parts or question him like many of us serving as these interviews are always restricted to yes people. I do think we need a Dannet in charge rather than a Torpy , Dannet stood up to the government and said what needed to be said , he got F***** over but he had balls and with that I respect that. The CAS in my view is just saying that the government wants him to say.

[jindabyne]

Hear what all of you serving guys are saying: do you represent your views, 'forcefully', to your Boss/Stn Cdr? And to AOC on his annual visit? Or am I so out of touch that such representations are pointless? Years ago, the odd senior person listened, but not without risk of potential career damage. Any change?

[Pure Pursuit]

Last time I stood having tea and biscuits with the AOC, I got the distinct impression that everything I said travelled in through the left ear and out through the right. Unfortunately, everybody else came to the same conclusion so no, it wasn't simply because I was being a boring :mad:!

P.S. If you haven't already downloaded 'Google Chrome' as a web browser, try it out. It has a spell check; ideal for those late weekend, wine induced posts!:ok:

[The Nip]

A certain female AOC once told me that just because you have rank on your shoulders, it does not mean that you have a monopoly of common sense and good ideas!!

[The Helpful Stacker]

To be fair to a previous CAS (name escapes me but it'd have been about 1998) when he visited our little TSW det at R850 for a chat during his whirlwind tour of Ulster he had his Warrant Officer take the Flt Lt (who was the Aldergrove based TSW 'chaperon') for a walk elsewhere so that he could have a proper chat with us.

Although it probably didn't do much good in the long run it did make us feel much better.

Unfortunately the last opportunity I had to 'have a word' with one of our glorious leaders was when Browne visited Odious the other year for a grip and grin photo call with a carefully prepared for Q&A session afterwards. Unfortunately he only had pre-prepared answers for the easier questions and anything that veered outside of those questions raised by those defence experts at 'The Sun' resulted in blank looks and "we'll get back to you on that". For instance, service personnel now being classed as 'Key Skill Workers' to enable them to get assistance to buy their own house's, yet only in the SE of England and only if they can guarantee they will be based in (not living in) the SE for at least 5 years! How could a service person guarantee that?

They never did get back to me, even though the Staish, some admin bint from Strike and Browne's assistant all took my name and details of the question raised.

Anyway, I digress.

[L1A2 discharged]

Prior to him becoming CAS we had a nice chat :E on a display line at MPA. Following which his ADC took notes, name etc etc.

Surprisingly ...... nothing was changed. :(

[Winco]

JP,
I think that, having read some of the comments posted since my last contirbution, I am speaking for the majority of those who still in! Please don't think I'm proud of that, because I am not. On the contrary, I would much prefer to see that we had a CAS who was prepared to tell it as it is, and NOT tell those above him what they want to hear.

Cazatou,
Do I take it from your lack of reply to my earlier posting that you have nothing further to add to this debate? I note on another thread that you are one of the few who have 'exceptional' in your flying log book. Well done Sir, I salute you! I think it bears out what I said in my earlier comment about how rank bears no reflection whatsoever to aviating ability eh? Perhaps you would do us all the great honour of advising what rank you were when you left, just to concur that please? Thank you.

[cheesedoff]

Gents, some things will never change. Nothing we can do will solve the problem as the big cheese is only looking out for his pension and nothing else.

[taxydual]

I left the RAF 10 years ago, after 25 years service, at the insistence of (the now former Mrs Taxydual). I left a career and a Service I loved. I regret it to this day. However, it was my signature on the form.

Daily, I read (through this site and the newspapers) of the malaise that the RAF appears to be suffering. I say 'appears' because, obviously, after 10 years, I am out of the loop and cannot speak first-hand.

One thing does intrigue me though. Can the blame for this malaise really be laid at the feet of just one individual? Namely Sir Glenn Torpy. Can a transient, ie 2/3 year in post, CAS have that much influence on the morale and attitudes of the RAF as a whole?

[vmv2]

May I say that Winco and the rest of the whingers on this site do NOT represent the views of the majority of the members of the RAF or at least the people I work with. I have been in for a while now and the only place that I consistently read or hear of complaints concerning the current CAS is on PPrune. He is certainly not a major topic of conversation in my crewroom. These complaints seem to come from the same individuals all the time. I also find it intriguing that some individuals who have long left the Service know so much about how he does his job. May I ask a couple of questions of those who question CAS' ability to do the job along with his integrity?

When did you last speak to him face to face?
Have you ever asked him directly to do anything for you?
If so, what response did you get?
When was the last time you sat in on a meeting between CAS and any member of the government so that you can say with some conviction that he just rolls over and does the politicos bidding?
How many of you have been awarded the DSO?

[4mastacker]

If I may add my two penn’orth. I didn’t serve under the current CAS so I don’t know what he is like as a leader although I do know he was decorated for his leadership in GW1.

The point I wish to make is how many of you gentlemen have taken over a staff appointment only to find that you have been handed a crock of s**t/cluster f***/whatever-you-may-call-it by your predecessor(s). Then compare that situation to that of the current CAS – although, in his circumstances, the situation is probably on a grander scale. I’m pretty sure that the seeds of the whirlwind that is blasting away at the current CAS were sown some years ago, so shouldn’t some of the angst be directed toward those who did the sowing?

[vmv2]

mileandahalf,

Wrong and right.

Wrong - I have read every post and paid great attention to what has been said. Which prompted me to post.

Right - I am a happy person and still enjoy being in the RAF.

Could you please answer the questions I have posed above? Just for completeness you understand.

[4mastacker]

mileandahalf

If I may echo vmv2's reply..Wrong and right - the only difference between vmv2's answer and my own is I am enjoying being out of the RAF. I suppose in your view, all the problems, actual or perceived, are all down to the man himself, it's only happened during his current tenure and it's got nothing to do with actions that were (or were not) taken by his predecessors.

The fact that I am not knocking the man doesn't mean I think he's a good leader and the best man for the job... or not! I' ve expressed an opinion which is similar to the point made by taxydual.

I won't make derisory comments just because I happen to disagree with what has been posted.

[Chugalug2]

taxydual:

One thing does intrigue me though. Can the blame for this malaise really be laid at the feet of just one individual? Namely Sir Glenn Torpy. Can a transient, ie 2/3 year in post, CAS have that much influence on the morale and attitudes of the RAF as a whole?

In a word, TD, no. I think I said as much in an earlier post. That isn't the point though. It's a question of leadership. Given that there is the malaise of which you speak, then the person in charge, ie the CAS, should be seen by one and all to be addressing it. I, admittedly from outside the RAF now and outside the loop as you say, see no sign of it. The Army, with similar worries, has a CGS who is addressing them and can be seen to be doing so even to my myopic view. It is that disparity which is so striking, and to be fair to Sir Glenn so typically RAF!

[taxydual]

Thanks Chug. Point taken.

[minigundiplomat]

He is certainly not a major topic of conversation in my crewroom.

You are the type of person we all avoid. perhaps you should leave Prune and go back to your Ivory Tower.

[vmv2]

minigundiplomat,

Sorry, but I don't get your point about an ivory tower. There isn't one in the hangar I work from.

The point of my original post was to express my opinion that Winco's statement that he was "speaking for the majority of those who still in" was not correct as far as our squadron is concerned. I can honestly say that I can't ever recall the subject of any recent conversation being CAS and/or how he has performed in post. There are far more parochial matters concerning us such as JPA, petrol prices, etc.

[Biggus]

vmv2 - Has it not occurred to you that if the CAS is not a topic of conversation in your crewroom at all then those present don't perceive (and I chose, and hopefully spelt, that word carefully) that he is doing anything worthwhile to better their lot....?? You don't say that CAS is mentioned favourably in your crewroom - rather that he is not mentioned at all!!

The majority of people on this thread who are criticising CAS are doing so on the basis of his apparent (again a carefully chosen word) inaction in terms of speaking out, effecting (productive/useful) change, etc..... The fact that he is not mentioned in your crewroom seems to imply that your co-workers also sense no productive action on his part - they just aren't as upset about it as some posting here, maybe it is just what they have come to expect from senior officers over the years....??

[Winco]

vmv2

When did you last speak to him face to face? probably back in 2002-3
Have you ever asked him directly to do anything for you? No, he has always been a fast jet man, I've always been on Multi
If so, what response did you get? n/a
When was the last time you sat in on a meeting between CAS and any member of the government so that you can say with some conviction that he just rolls over and does the politicos bidding? I've never sat in on such meeting, but I'm afraid that you have misse the point. My argument is that Torpey is NOT and is NEVER seen as a person who stands up for the thousands of men and women under his command. I have yet to hear him say a single word against the dreadful cuts that affect the service so much. And as I've said before, his handling of the Nimrod loss has been so poor, that he is an embarrasment, I suspect, to a great many in the service.
How many of you have been awarded the DSO? I DO NOT have a DSO, but so I will decline from commenting any further about the award. If you knew anything whatsoever about awards, then you would know what I mean.

The problem is that Glenn Torpey is NOT a good CAS. He IS a nice chap, infact a charming chap, but NOT a good CAS, and thats why people are giving him a roasting. You must know how bad it is in the service at the moment, and yet whilst the RN and Army chiefs are quite happy to say in public that the cuts are too much, our (or your) glorious leader sits fat, dumb and happy, saying nothing! Sad, but thats the fact.

Cazatou
I have refrainewd from putting it in big letters, but are you going to reply to my commenst or are you going to go 'deep and silent'??

[minigundiplomat]

Winco,

I think Cazatou was hoping to divide and conquer, either to act as devils advocate or just to p:mad:ss everyone off, I don't know.

The fact that several serving people have supported your post seems to have cut off his oxygen somewhat.


MGD