Seaplane Rating-advice please

[Mr Man]

Hi!
I realise this has been covered before but I'd really appreciate any up to date recommendations/advice on obtaining a seaplane rating.
Myself and 2 friends are wanting to book for next year,probs USA or Canada as the obvious choice,but open to any suggestions.
Thanks!

[hoodie]

I did my SES some years ago at Jack Brown's in Florida, and I understand that it's still as good. Don't let the 1990s website (http://www.gate.net/~seaplane/) put you off!

[Fuji Abound]

Loch Earn if you want to stay this side of the Pond and as good as it gets.

[Solar]

Fuji
I presume you mean Lough Erne (St Angelo) in Fermanagh NI and I would endorse your comments, as good as it gets.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Nope, he means Loch Earn.

Neil's Seaplanes and Caledonian Seaplanes operate from there.

I understand a fellow PPRuNer has also just qualified as a seaplane instructor too, so there might be a new kid on the block sometime soon as well ;)

[Mr Man]

Thanks so much guys,will follow up the leads.I have been told several times that it's the most fun u can have in aviation.Will post on here any progress.Cheers!

[Stelladog]

Also, Len Gruber operates a Maule on amphibious floats from the Argyll Aero Club at Oban Airport.

01546 602 471

07711 319 190



SD

[malc4d]

Read in a pilot mag, that a guy has a Maul anphib. at Peterborough Connington that he does seaplane training in.

If its a FAA rating, l did my ases in a Maul anphib. in Orlando with Florida seaplanes, and my ames in a Widgeon at Spruce creek near Daytona.........:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Mr Man

Its good fun, very good fun, but dont get too carried away.

Flying a float aircraft is much like any other.

The landing and take off is a bit different, but not to a vast extent.

The problem in the UK is it is almost impossible to use the rating unless you happen to live in the right place and are prepared to invest in your own aircraft.

Of course in Scotland (so far as the UK is concerned) it opens up some of the most wonderful opportunitues for scenic places at which to land and for me that is the real beauty of float aircraft.

Ultimately from an aviators perspective it is just another skill (a bit like flying a twin for example) which is enjoyable to do for its own sake if that is your thing.

I hope you enjoy.

[youngskywalker]

I can vouch for Jack brown's in Florida, great fun and pretty cheap compared to the UK (only if you are already over there for a holiday that is!)

For me, it combined all the fun of speed boating but in an aircraft! It's a pretty useless rating unless you buy your own floatplane or intend flying for the Maldivies Air Taxi people!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Getting a sea plane rating is far different from flying on wheels.

The actual flying once the airplane is in the air is not all that much different than flying an airplane on wheels.

However once in contact with the water it is another world all together and that is where proper instruction from someone who actually knows the subject through experience in the commercial world of sea plane flying comes in.

Finding an instructor who has experience beyond the puppy mill mentality of the average flight school is the real problem.

Be very careful about recommendations from pilots who have just completed XXXX's course and babble on and on about how wonderful their flight instruction was at XXXX's school......in many cases the instructor barley knows more than the student....their pay structure will explain why.

[youngskywalker]

Other than recommendations people dont have much more to go on! Remember that floatplane flying is pretty rare in the UK and possibly Europe too, not many places to go. I take it your from canada and that it's a different game over there, and as such you will know the pit falls and which instructors/schools to go to. For what it's worth my instructor had several thousands of hours and was a retired twin otter floatplane air taxi Pilot, I reckoned that he knew more than me!

For most people it will only be for a one off lesson, another experience for the logbook and not something that they will undertake on a regular basis.

[Eagle402]

Slightly off the beaten track but I can personally recommend Aero Club of Como on (the clues were all there!) Lake Como, Italy.

www.aeroclubcomo.com

Not the cheapest but fantastic location and quality instruction.

Regards,

Eagle402

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Other than recommendations people dont have much more to go on!

Pardon me youngskywalker for attempting to give some advice on this subject.

I am happy for you that you had an experienced sea plane pilot as your sea plane instructor.

But once again may I reinforce the fact that most flight schools do not pay enough money to attract sea plane teachers who actually know their asses from a hole in the water.

So here is one more recommendation:

Before you hand over your cash ask how much time the instructor has in the real world of sea plane flying......then if the instructor is high time find out why said instructor is willing to work for peanuts.

[Stelladog]

Hi Chuck,

I believe the aformentioned Len Gruber has many,many thousands of hours in his log book .

SD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Stelladog I don't see where I made any reference to Len Gruber nor did I say there were not good sea plane instructors out there.

My comment was general and applies to many flight schools.

So tell me how quickly can you get a sea plane rating from a good school, and what do you have to be taught to make you a safe sea plane pilot?

Specifically what do you think of schools that advertize one or two day sea plane ratings, what happens if you do not get the proper weather for the most important skill you need when flying sea planes?

[Fuji Abound]

Chuck

Hmm, dont bother with a float instructor - go find yourself a dinghy sailor, one who has raced on lakes and rivers - you will learn all you need to know.

If Ben Ainsley was a pilot he would make a superb float plane pilot.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Fuji, what really dumbfounds me is how so many pilots get their sea plane ratings in one or two days and were never trained on how to land on glassy water......

....of all the new skills one needs training in it is landing on glassy water and the accident records of pilots slamming into glassy water shows how important it is to be taught how to do a proper glassy water approach and landing.

To properly learn this skill one needs glassy water, teaching students how do do the glassy water approach and landing on water that has wind/waves on it just does not do the trick.

I don't post much here however when it comes to sea plane flying I feel I just have to comment. If for no other reason than to try and remind people that learning how to fly a sea plane is a serious business and needs to be treated as such.

[Pilot DAR]

Yeah,

I gotta support Chuck on this one. It's fun to do 20 or 30 landings over two nice days, dock twice with help, and say that you got a float rating, but...

If you're actually going float flying, you're intending to land in a place that was not built with a surface (underwater hazards?) or infrastructure intended to accomodate an airplane. Does the lake have a stated runway length? HOw do you know if you have enought room? You're going to have to figure a lot of things out for yourself, and often very quickly, while you're sailing up to them. If you have a problem, you're not at an airport, what's your plan to get help? I've flown a lot of badly needed items into some remote places, because the pilot did not have a plan. Having the money to fly off and onto the water is only the beginning, getting good instruction is next, but building up the necessary experience over the long term is the most important. Only good, and long term mentoring, from much more experienced pilots will get you through safely.

Fortunately, insurance companies are figuring this out, and insist on effective insruction, and refresher flying. The rates tell the story. Add amphibs to the mix, and watch the insurance rates go up. What is the position of the wheels compared to where you are about to land? Swimming in an upsidedown floatplane is amazingly disorienting. And by the way, floatplanes and flying boats are very different from each other on the water, and require specialized "differences" training.

Don't get me wrong, go and get the rating, it's a blast, but until you have a hundred hours on floats, have succeded in docking in a high wind, and touched down on a surface so smooth that you truly could not tell if you were one foot or one hundred feet up, the instant before you touched, you should not be float flying without mentoring.

You've just dropped off a passenger in a little lake, and the takeoff path ahead of you is an "S" bend, so where to are going to lift off the water is around a corner from where you begin your takeoff. As you turn to your takeoff heading, you drag the length of the float along an unseen submerged rock. Are you going to stop and have a look, and sink it there, or try to take off on a potentially Titanic damaged float?

You'e flying an amphibian, and one main wheel gets stuck up, while the other gets stuck down, and you're now out of hyraulic fluid to move either. Where are you going to land?

There are lots of things to think about, and the fresh instructor may be just the beginning of what you will need to make you safe.

I suggest that you look for flight training for floats in British Columbia or Ontario. The state of Maine also has some schools. At least the junior instructors with whom you might be paired, are probably themselves being mentored by old timers.

Best of luck, and wear your lifejacket!

Pilot DAR

[youngskywalker]

You misunderstood me chuck, I was trying to say that for most of us in the UK we will only get the odd float plane lesson for fun, will never get the chance to go and do it solo, so it really doesnt matter that they probably will not learn all the skills required.

Rather than telling people not to listen to recommendations about schools on here, it would be more helpful if you could point us all in the right direction. Tell us where to look for good training! Nobody here is disputing your enormous knowledge of float plane flying.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It would not be wise for me to list schools by name based on the quality of flight instruction they provide as the quality of instruction will vary from instructor to instructor.

In a previous post I gave this advice.


Before you hand over your cash ask how much time the instructor has in the real world of sea plane flying......then if the instructor is high time find out why said instructor is willing to work for peanuts.

By doing that you will at least have a better idea of what the instructor may be capable of.

In Europe you definitely do not have a very large number of schools who even provide sea plane instruction due to the goofy rules regarding where one can operate sea planes, and of course this will limit the number of instructors who have worked in the world of commercial sea plane flying.

To find high time sea plane pilots one needs to go to Alaska or Canada.

Once again, if you are going to spend your money learning a new skill why not look for someone who can teach you said skill?

[malc4d]

Hey Chuck...........When are you free :O...............:ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Freedom came for me when I retired from flying for a living in 2005.

My retirement was pre planned in the same careful way I pre planned all my flights when I was flying for a living, I gave myself a deadline for when I would retire and that was when I turned 70.

I figured it was best to quit while I was still ahead of the game rather than keep on flying and allow senility to ruin a good record safety wise.

Here was my last take off in Rotterdam in 2005, that airplane is now being operated by the Dutch pilots who I spent three years with and I am proud as hell of their ability to safely fly the thing.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/RotterdamBridge.jpg

I may decide to offer advanced sea plane instruction on a Husky on whipline Amhhibs in the near future.......however it will not be instruction towards a sea plane rating as my Canadian flight instructors rating lapsed many moons ago and I am not willing to spend my retirement money on a frontal lobotomy to allow me to renew my flight instructors rating.:E

[malc4d]

Good on yer..........

[ComJam]

I highly recommend Neil Gregory at Loch Earnhead, lovely new Husky on Amphib floats. Most fun you can with your clothes on! :}

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How much is the Amphip. Husky per hour?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

That is not a bad price for that area of the world.

[Dr_Tre]

I believe that both of the schools on Loch Earn (Caledonian and Neils) are owner/ operator/ instructor all rolled into one person. These individuals don't work for 'peanuts' because thats all they can get, they do it because its what they want to do.

Both are very high hours floatplane instructors.

I did my SEP(Sea) rating at Caledonian - it took me 10 hours (min 5) and I was trained in the full range of take-offs and landings including quite a few glassy operations (it was the summer). I don't believe that either of these two schools have the mentality that you speak of Chuck.

[Crash one]

Well said Dr TRE
I have seen Caledonian Cub landed at Fife on wet grass for it's winter lay up, then launched off a trolley in the spring. (before they got the amphib)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I did my SEP(Sea) rating at Caledonian - it took me 10 hours (min 5) and I was trained in the full range of take-offs and landings including quite a few glassy operations (it was the summer). I don't believe that either of these two schools have the mentality that you speak of Chuck.

Dr-Tre, would you be more content if I just never offered any advice to people who ask questions here?

If you read my comments you will note that I made no reference to either of these schools, in fact I would not comment on any specific school when asked.



Both are very high hours floatplane instructors.

What exactly does this statement mean when it comes to their background. Are you saying their background consists of instructing on sea planes with no other experience in that field outside of instructing or are they high time sea plane pilots that have worked in the industry and then decided to share their knowledge and skills by becoming sea plane instructors?

I trust you do not get annoyed with my questions, as they are only meant to help me and others have a better idea of the depth of knowledge they have acquired to better allow them to offer a high value level of instructional service.

Please do not take the above to mean I am trying to be difficult, far from it as I am only trying to get a better understanding of how people perceive quality instruction and what they use as benchmarks from which to measure same. :ok:

[irish seaplane]

If you don't plan on buying a seaplane and using it regularly....

Than pick the best holiday destination that suits your plans and do your SES there. You wont get to use your rating unless you buy a machine here in UK/Eire, or else have a fried who lets you do 5 hrs a year in his/hers. If you are going to go the road I went and buy one and go balls and all at it, then in hindsight I'd prob go to Louisanna where they get all the tricky scenario's day to day (Read some SPA posts/waterflying mags).

But if its a good time and feel good factor you want, then pick a good holi destination ie Como or FL and just do it.

Irish

[Steve N]

Just out of interest. How do you guys do your engine run up on floats?

Steve

[ChrisVJ]

A good point Steve, but usually not a problem as the revs for mag check don't immediately get one up on the step. Far more fun is to be had watching some guys clamber aboard and start a recalcitrant engine, especially in tight quarters and a stiffish breeze.

There are other little dances too, like the one in seaplanes with ineffective water rudders or, again, in a seaplane where you climb down into the cockpit, pushing off so your wing float does not get tangled in the pontoon but then have to get her started amongst a tangle of straps and headset cords be
fore she weathercocks back at the dock .

It is a whole new world out there for land flyers.

[high.flyer.andy]

Not so long ago I made my SEPSEA rating at the Aero Club Como. What a fabulous location. The training was to a high standard very professional . All the instructors I flew with speak a good level of English. I can recommend the club. They have very cheap accomodation if you need it.

[stickandrudderman]

It's a pretty expensive badge to get considering that, practically speaking, it's just about unusable here in England.
As Fuji says, some just like to get the badge and if that's what floats your boat (pun intended) good luck to you.

[sternone]

If you want to become a really good float pilot go to Alaska Lake Hood, largest float plane base in the world :

Home - Alaska Float Ratings (http://www.alaskafloatratings.com/)

They also will learn how to do some descent mountain flying.

[neilgeddes]

I can fully endorse your positive comments about Aero Club Como. I've been going there twice a year for 3 years now and have accummulated 25 hours P1 on floats. They've a growing fleet including C172, C172XP, C206, Lake, Cub etc. all available for solo rental provided you have the necessary rating and experience. I'm lucky to live near Gatwick and can hop on to easyJet to Milan Malpensa then taking the train to Como. Easy! Rgds, Neil :)

[malc4d]

You can get both single and multi seaplane ratings here around Orlando. Not sure about the need for a visa or TSA if done in the US though.........

[Katamarino]

Chuck,

Is that beast taking off in Rotterdam the same one that now lives at Lelystadt?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes it is and that was my last take off before I retired from flying for a living. ( 2005 ) :ok:

Reading through this thread it is interesting to see how trying to give advice turns into a session of misunderstanding and defensive comments because people fail to try and understand what is written. :sad:

[BabyBear]

I am beginning to get the notion for having a go at this, thank's to that Chuck fella talking it up. I am glad you offered the advice, Chuck, and didn't just say xxx is a great school.

I would imagine it's possible to do a seaplane without having a land plane licence, so wouldn't think land plane time is essential. But heh, thats just my logic rather than knowledge.

[englishal]

I did it this summer in a PA12-S. The SESEA is the most fun I've had for years, not particularly difficult and certainly improves the stick and rudder skills. Helps if you have a good general handling background but anyone who is half competent should be able to do it.

[XXPLOD]

I'm 'up north' with work in May and thought I'd look at doing some seaplane flying and maybe the rating. Neil's Seaplanes looked good but the website seems to be broken, the landline number seems to be no longer available and the mobile number goes to voicemail. Does anyone know if Neil is still in business?
Ta!

[neilgeddes]

Try Hamish at Scotia Seaplanes - Scotland on Floats (http://www.scotlandonfloats.com/)

[fisbangwollop]

I second tht give Hamish a call :ok::ok::ok:

[XXPLOD]

Disregard my last - spoke to Neil today. Thanks for the tip chaps will look in to it.

[S-Works]

I did mine out in the US at Jack Browns the year before last and added it as Commercial to both my FAA and JAA licences. With flights and training it still worked out cheaper than doing it in Europe!!!

[Marchettiman]

If you think about it logically, you already know how to fly an aeroplane and floatplanes behave like any other kind of flying machine with only minor differences. But unless you are already a boat owner it's operating on water that is the main set of skills you need to master and gain experience of. So go and do a motorboat skipper's course first, preferably on a single engine type, learn about mooring in side winds, and all the other stuff involved with operating on water then, and only then go to a seaplane flying school. The RYA are the best source of schools for the marine side.
I did my FAA Commercial (single and multi-engine) at Jack Browns in Florida, but now fly with the aeroclub at Como Italy. The small overall extra cost of the Italian school is so well worth it for the ambience, scenery, food (not to mention the women) in this beautiful part of Italy. I was already a boat owner so the water handling came naturally and must have cut down on the time it took me to get the rating.

[S-Works]

Very good advice. If you have boat handling skills the water handling on floats will be quickly assimilated. I have taught RYA Power Boat and Yacht Master courses for years and found that the water experience was a real benefit for the float training. Not to mention the theory exams when adding it to my JAA licences.

[Fuji Abound]

I hope you do some float flying.

Sadly you will find the opportunities in the UK to use the rating are very limited. People like Neil own thier own aircraft, they only have one and understandably even if you have the rating are reluctant to allow self fly hire. Moroever I think float flying is even more of a rating to learn than a PPL. With a PPL you should be safe enough to go off solo straight after qualifying. With a float rating, particularly in some of the more hostile areas where floats are typically used there are plenty of opportunities for coming unstuck with the costs involved recovering the aircraft often being significant.

I am really not wishing to put you off, just worth going into with eyes wide open.

Edited to add - I would agree with Bose, yachting skills will stand you in very good stead, perhaps even more especially dinghy sailing and racing. If you have raced a dinghy on lakes you will know that the wind might be coming in one direction in the forecast and quite another on the lake, you will understand what can cause the wind to bend and you will know the signs to look out for that enable you to identify whether a gust is coming through and you are about to be headed. You will also have a feel for the effect the wind will have on the aircraft when it becomes just like a rudderless dinghy. I reckon a windsurfer or a Fireball sailor would make a very good float pilot, at least when it comes to landing and coming ashore. :) Anyone remember the Bose in the earlier days of skiffs and 505s at Felixstow Ferry. :) :)