Andover aircraft crash at Pisa

[quartermilltopo]

Does anyone recall, and have details of, the fatal crash of an Andover aircraft at Pisa in the early 1970s. It was carrying trainee parachutists of the Falcons team, I believe. It was reported to have been executing a 'tactical' takeoff, and experienced an engine failure. What is the definition of a 'tactical' takeoff? Max performance? Short field?

[guff]

I remember this one ! Wasnt there a full page picture of it on the front of The Sun. Very sad but despite everything I believe the fatalities were light. By the way a friend of mine was on the crash and smash team sent to recover the wreckage and had a great time.

[SirToppamHat]

I know nothing of the specific crash, but having recently worked with one of the QQ Andovers (Open Skies- no longer used), I was surprised that it required Water Methanol for take-offs (ISTR it could carry enough for about 8T/Os), because following an EFATO, there was not enough power from one engine to continue to climb.

Given water meth is considered DAC, it had to be pre-positioned, making this airframe a pain to operate on anything other than short missions.

STH

[Tigger_Too]

Don't recall an Andover accident at that time, but IIRC, 24 Sqn lost a Herc off Pisa in 1971. All killed sadly. I think it was participating in an exercise and carrying Italian paratroopers

[Molesworth Hold]

Is this the accident you are referring to?

ASN Aircraft accident Hawker Siddeley HS-748 Andover C.1 XS609 Siena/Ampugnano Airport (SAY) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19720408-0)

http://www.baaa-acro.com/photos/Avro748-RAF-Sienne.jpg

[dalek]

Andover STOL take - off. Run down the runway with 27 flap. Rotate early at around 80 kts gear up , lower nose and at 96 kts you reach V2 and climb away. On this T/O there was a real or perceived engine failure between the two numbers. The captain failed to control and the aircraft crashed. Pins were left in one of the rear doors which led to addidional fatalities.

[Juan Tugoh]

Water Meth was not required on all Andover Take-offs, you could run on Wet or Dry power, Water Meth increased power by approx 25% and so you could lift more weight off shorter runways if it was used.

[goudie]

I believe the fatalities were light. By the way a friend of mine was on the crash and smash team sent to recover the wreckage and had a great time.


Well that's alright then!

[quartermilltopo]

Thanks to you all for your help and information

[Samuel]

I recall an RNZAF Andover Captain earning an AFC for an emergency flight to the Chatham Islands [south of the South Island of New Zealand to collect a sick child. It was a daylight landing but due to various reasons , a night take-off , on a grass runway with no airfield lighting! The RNZAF bought 10 ex-RAF Andovers and flew them for the best part of 20 years or so!

With vehicle headlights as illumination, he decided needs must, and employed a water meth take-off to gain as much height as quickly as possible.:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

South Sudan is littered with wrecked Andovers. Last time I saw the one at Rumbek it was down to a spar attachment frame, the rest being recycled as pots and pans in the area.

Alzheimers? What's that?

[dalek]

At V2 for 22 flap (96 kts at normal weights), flaps were brought to 22 and the aircraft was for the first time perf A. Water meth was always used on a STOL take off. Why risk the dead mans gap when it could be avoided by the additional power.

[threeputt]

My recollections of this are a bit hazy but, apparently, post crash some of the survivors managed to egress the smoking wreckage by climbing through the ac windows, with parachutes on.......extraordinarily lucky people!

Trials afterwords showed this to be impossible! a bit like the Lightning in the hangar and the teccie standing on the bang seat when he heard a ticking noise.

Navigator on the Andover later arrived on 50 Sqn at Waddington, forget his name but a Jockistanian by birth, he later retired as a Wg Cdr or Gp Capt.

3P:ok:

[guff]

goudie you are quite right to pull me up on that comment, my sincere apologies for any hurt caused. Got carried away Im afraid.:(

[Wombat35]

Ahh yes and guess what happens when you switch the water meth on half way through a take-off ....

:eek:
:uhoh:
:mad:
:{

[A2QFI]

QMtopo - check your PMs

[chopper2004]

Not too sure if I have met the pilot of this a/c.
When I was a CCF air cadet, we went to camp at RAF Church Fenton in April 1991, the SATCO, who was Sqn/Ldr in his 50s had aircrew wings but since been grounded cos he was flying a transport a/c that crashed on take off in Italian airbase or airport either 60s or 70 and there had been a few fatalities but it was enough for him to be grounded probably due to injuries
Can't remember his name but he was also the ACLO and he was building his own kit built aircraft in one of the sheds at Church Fenton.

If I could put any resemblance to a famous actor/character it would be to Robert Culp.

[goudie]

Guff, easily done when recalling memories. Apology accepted mate.

[Laker Liker]

The Herc that you mention crashed on November 7th 1971. I was the flight engineer on the command aircraft when he went in behind us after a Hi-Lo departure of the first section of aircraft involved. Took a while to find the remains because the authorities were looking in the wrong location.

[cazatou]

It was a long time ago, and I was instructing at Manby then, but I seem to recall that they had incorrectly selected "30 degrees Flap" (which with the tab was actually 105 degrees Flap) for take-off and they ran out of water-methanol injection on the port side whilst trying to accelerate after "rotate" (the port tank held 27 gallons of WM as opposed to the stbd tank which held 31 gallons).

The fatalities were as a result of people (including the ALM) not being strapped in for take-off.

Mind you I could be wrong - only got 4663 hrs on Andovers.

[SFCC]

Cazatou....you are wrong yes, oh, and spekesoftly me old son, if the co pilot mentioned incorrect flap settings, it was certainly not the co pilot of the accident aircraft.

I can tell you this without any doubt.

[javelin]

The right engine failed shortly after rotate and below blueline speed meaning the inevitable was about to happen. Subsequent investigation found a damaged turbine disc some distance from the aeroplane which indicated failure of the unit at or around rotate. This was uncovered in a RR report some time after the event and was not included in the original report. The photo shows the flap to be in an expected setting, certainly not more than normal for a STOL takeoff.

This, by the way, is from the horses mouth this very afternoon, not hearsay :ok:

[Yarpy]

I recall an RNZAF Andover Captain earning an AFC for an emergency flight to the Chatham Islands [south of the South Island of New Zealand to collect a sick child.

Was that, by any chance, Hamish Raynham?

[Tigger_Too]

This, by the way, is from the horses mouth this very afternoon, not hearsay

Uhm... Sorry, but you are telling us what you heard from someone else are you not? So unless you are wearing a saddle, and have iron shoes nailed to your feet, then yes it is hearsay.

"Hearsay: the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law."

[Vick Van Guard]

Wasn't the fact that the auto-feathering system was disconnected on Service Darts a major contributory factor to this accident?

I used to work with the co-pilot a few years ago at East Midlands operating the flight checking Andover’s. Seem to remember he had the picture on his locker. Nice chap.

[javelin]

Auto feather wasn't active, correct and yes, he is a very nice chap ;-)

[johnrush]

Yes it crashed on take off to to power conversion unit failure.the loadmaster and a 46 sqn sgt were killed.the sergeants leg got trapped in para seat.a tactical take off is a short take off which the aircraft was capable of.the sgt who died had a service number ending in the same as the aircraft number being 609.

[Tinribs]

As has been said so many times, it was a long time ago but I recall seeing an Iti newspaper stating that because it had a photo of a crew member carrying a chianti bottle the crew had been drinking in flight and were drunk.
This seemed not to fit with the bottle being clearly unopened in the walk out photo and the crash happening at take off
Again we can always trust the press to make a reasoned sensible adjustment to facts when a story ios needed

[101Entry]

It was an unauthorised STOL take-off with the Falcon's para display team on board. They suffered an EFATO and the co-pilot admitted he was looking at the crowds at the time, and therefore couldn't identify the failed engine. The co-pilot was removed from flying and became an ATC, and the Captain left the RAF, and interestingly, for a while afterwards had the grass-cutting contract at Thorney Island. I know their names but will not publicise them here.

[Herod]

Tinribs. The chianti bottle picture was following the crash of the C130 at Pisa. I was working in the ops room on that exercise, although not on the night of the crash. There were 69 Italian paras on board. It wasn't recommended to go downtown for a few days afterwards.

By pure coincidence, I was the duty Ops Controller at Thorney island when XS609 went in. As such, apart from the comcen operator, I was the first person in UK to hear about it. However, as you can imagine, handling it soon went way above my rank.

[Brian 48nav]

I think it was 42 Italian paratroopers plus 6 crew, including the 'jumping bean'. You are right, it wasn't wise to go downtown for a few days because the Italian press were trying to suggest the RAF crews were a load of drunkards. They had not taken into account that there were 25 crews on the detachment and that only 9 crews were on that first sortie - we were in bed about 9 o'clock for an 0300 wake-up call. The other 16 crews of course were downtown enjoying themselves!

A very very sad time, made more difficult for the crews because those were the days of limited phone communications, no mobiles and just a one pay phone in our hotel. I managed to speak to my wife later that evening but fortunately she had been able to contact Lyneham ops' in the afternoon to confirm that I was alive!

I knew the unfortunate captain of the Andover as he had been in Changi on Far East Comm' when I was there on 48 - I met him a few times later at a mutual friend's house, a broken man and now RIP I believe.

[West Coast]

The RNZAF bought 10 ex-RAF Andovers and flew them for the best part of 20 years or so!

They put them to great use in Somalia. Sharp crews.

[smujsmith]

Brian,

Like you, I well remember the loss of the Albert (XV216) in Pisa all those years ago. The aircraft had recently (prior to the event) been serviced by the team I worked on at Colerne, so, as well as all relevant paperwork being collected, our team were confined to camp until the result of the accident enquiry was published. I could never understand why the confinement was maintained, whilst we were allowed to continue to carry out our duties on the current aircraft under Base 3 inspection. Although, the bosses realised that they could work the captive techies 6 instead of 5 days a week ! ISTR 47 Italian paratroopers died along with the crew, a truly sad event. Apologies for the thread creep gentlemen.

Smudge

[chute packer]

The RNZAF bought 10 ex-RAF Andovers and flew them for the best part of 20 years or so!

They also managed to log some gliding time on one as well along with a barrel roll.

[Old-Duffer]

Below is the fatal casualty list for the Pisa Hercules and the Andover.

Flight Lieutenant Colin George HARRISON 26 Captain
Flight Lieutenant Meurig SWANN-PRICE 25 Co-Pilot
Flying Officer Michael Fred FAWCETT 22 Navigator
Flight Sergeant Brian David KING 32 Flight Engineer
Sergeant Brian Paul FULFORD 28 Air Quartermaster
Sergeant Ralph Russell LEE 37 Parachute Jumping Instructor, No 1 Parachute Training School
1st Lieutenant Pier Maria MAGNAGHI Italian Army Parachutists
1st Lieutenant Ernesto BORGHESAN
Warrant Officer 2nd Class Giuseppe AUGELLO
Staff Sergeant Carmine CELOZZI
Corporal Carlo COLOMBINI
Lance Corporal Maurizio BENERICETTI
Lance Corporal Silvano BOLZONI
Lance Corporal Antonio FIUMARA
Lance Corporal Giuseppe IANNI
Lance Corporal Paolo INTERRANTE
Lance Corporal Sandro LOCORI
Lance Corporal Franco VANTAGGIATO
Parachutist Leonardo ANGELINI
Parachutist Michele CARASI
Parachutist Ettore CARTA
Parachutist Arcangelo CIAPPELLANO
Parachutist Arturo DELANA
Parachutist Vincenzo DE MARCO
Parachutist Luciano DALLAGO
Parachutist Ubaldo DE MITRI
Parachutist Pietro DESSI
Parachutist Paolo DONNARUMMA
Parachutist Danilo DAL ZOTTO
Parachutist Angelo DE VITO
Parachutist Giuseppe D’ALESSANDRO
Parachutist Antonio D’ALESSANDRO
Parachutist Guglielmo DINATALE
Parachutist Fulvio DALL’ASTA
Parachutist Micro FARRARI
Parachutist Giuseppe FACCHETTI
Parachutist Carlo FRASSON
Parachutist Salvatore FUMUSA
Parachutist William FUGERI
Parachutist Renato FRACASSETTI
Parachutist Rocco GIANNATTASIO
Parachutist Giovanni GIANNINI
Parachutist Bruno GUIDOZZI
Parachutist Giuseppe GUARNIERI
Parachutist Andrea GINEX
Parachutist Alberto GIGIOLI
Parachutist Roberto LIUZZI
Parachutist Danele MATELLI
Parachutist Roberto MORGANTI
Parachutist Elia QUARTI
Parachutist Silvano SABATINI
Parachutist Leonardo TORSELLO

Squadron Leader Frederick William LAST 40 No 1 PTS
Sergeant Royston Charles BULLEN 29 1 Parachute Training School
Believed to be two Italian officers

Old Duffer

[fdr]

Samuel,

you commented on the RNZAF pilot getting an AFC for the medivac from the Chatham Islands. The PIC was then Flt Lt Gary Wrathall. The landing was at night, and was effectively an operation past PNR which was the slightly interesting part of it. I was in the right window seat.

Gary passed away a few years back. He was an interesting person, having started as an gunner/signaller on Sunderlands a long time before. He had left the airforce and spent time up in Fiji with Air Pac, on the HS as well as the BAC1-11.

[reynoldsno1]

I knew Gary Wrathall - great guy. He also spent time with SOAF in the 80's flying Skyvans. Hamish Raynham was also in Oman at the same time, on BAC 1-11s.
I believe the captain of the Andover at Pisa was also in Oman at the same time

[DeanoP]

Ref Post No37:
Is this the same Hamish Raynham who had ballet training before joining the RAF? If so, he used to astound us by doing very high kicks/jumps in the bar. It might have been at Thorney Island or Colerne

[RHKAAF]

I was one of the many ex Andover crew in Oman during the early 80's.
Yes, the Pisa Andover pilot was also there at the time.
I never knew Gary Wrathall's first name...... just "Tikki" as he was a Kiwi
A lot of the ex-Oman guys also left for HongKong later when Omanisation got into full swing.