Visa needed for FAA CPL?

[ESGJ]

Hi
I have a JAA PPL and a FAA PPL(which is based on my foreign licence).
My question is. Can I train on a Part 61 school in the states for the Faa commercial without a VISA? A TSA isn't required since the CPL isn't an initial licence. Already talked to the FAA about that. I've talked to some flight schools in the states and they say VISA isn't reguired. But I want to be sure. The embassy in Sweden don't know and i've tried to get a hold of immigration so far without result.

Regards/esgj

[bad_attitude]

You do need a VISA. And as far as I know, in Part 141 schools, for commercial, you do need to pay the TSA.

[nh2301]

You probably don't need a visa, if your training is less than 18 hours per week, and not the sole purpose of your visit. You certianly don't need to pay TSA for commercial, part 141 or part 61 makes no difference.

[IO540]

You need a Visa but you don't need TSA, if you are doing just the CPL.

The bit about the 18 hrs has been done to death here; I don't recall the outcome but I believe that the U.S. authorities have invented new laws to get around that one.

To get a Visa you need a Part 141 school. A Part 61 school cannot issue an I-20 form which you need to get a Visa.

[nh2301]

I can't find information on these new rules, but given that a commercial pilot course under part 141 will be around 120 or more hours, you'll easily complete the 18-22 hours per week of study required of M-1 visa students.

The problem, last time I contacted immigration about this issue, was communication between TSA and ICE. If you applied to TSA, they would ask ICE if you were in the country legally for the course of training. If you had no VISA, ICE would, of course, say no, and TSA may deny you. Between the two agencies, there was no desire to understand the position that some people are in when they desire to, quite legally, seek flight training which is incidental to their visit to the US.

Since TSA is not required for a Commercial certificate, they won't be able to create a problem, and so no visa is required.

As always I stand to be corrected if the rules have been changed recently.

[BackPacker]

From the TSA FAQ on www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (my bold):

# Category 3 Clarification - For flight training in the operation of aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 lbs. or less, Candidates must obtain AFSP approval for the following three training events:

* Initial airman's certificate, including a private, recreational, or sport pilot certificate.
* Instrument Rating (IR)
* Multi-Engine Rating (MEL)

Each of these three events requires a separate training request.

All other training events on aircraft with MTOW of 12,500 lbs. or less are exempt from AFSP regulations, including Commercial Pilot License (CPL), Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL), and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI).

This clarification is available at TSA-2004-19147-0337.pdf.


From the Department of State website (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1268.html):

If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study of less than 18 hours per week, you may be able to do so on a visitor visa. You should inquire at the appropriate U.S. Embassy or Consulate. If your course of study is more than 18 hours a week, you will need a student visa.

Furthermore, as IO540 pointed out, all part 141 schools are SEVIS approved by default and can issue you the necessary paperwork for your VISA. A part 61 school is not SEVIS approved by default, so they may not be able to provide you with the necessary paperwork.

[ESGJ]

Thanks for your inputs on this! As you can see it's not easy to get the same answer, even from american officials.
I've already done the written exam and some flighttraining a year ago while on vacation. Since I indended to make some private flying on my vacation in the U.S I studied back home for the CPL theory just to learn the differences from european rules, and the training was made to get familiar with u.s proceedures. This included the biennial flight review, which I still had to make. Before my vacation I contacted the TSA and there were no problems, the VISA issue is much more complicated it seems. I'm visiting this winter again and it would be great to get the FAA commercial. The ammount of training needed is about 10 hrs before checkride, according to the instructor. I have relatives next to a small airfield where I could finish up the ticket. So it's not much training involved. Otherwise I would have done it on a part 141 school, but this would be alot easier. This 18 hr/week rule could apply if it still is valid.

regards/ESGJ

[B2N2]

Let me see what I can help clear up here:


A visa is required for the CPL since it's training for the issuance of a license
It's not the FAA's problem, they are not the visa experts nor do they care.
Only Part 141 certified schools can issue the I-20
However, you do NOT necessarily need to enroll in a Part 141 course of training
Every 141 school should be able to enroll you in a Part 61 course of training for the CPL
If they tell you otherwise...contact another school



Do NOT rely on visa advice form the FAA, they are a totally different government organization then Immigration and customs.
You wouldn't ask the CAA about UK visa rules would you?



PS..... Visa is required for the initial issuance of a certificate or rating
not the issuance of an initial certificate.
Semantics but an important difference

[nh2301]

He doesn't qualify for a visa, because a part 61 cpl doesn't require a full time course of study for the duration of his visit. (That would be: 8 CFR 214.2(f)(6) and 214.2(m)(9))

Where do USCIS say flight training isn't vocational? The M-1 Visa is for vocational training! Why does noone have any source for these 'new rules'. I've yet to see anything which indicates a visa is required.

[chrisbl]

JUst get a VIsa. It is not worth doing anything else.

[IO540]

He doesn't qualify for a visa, because a part 61 cpl doesn't require a full time course of study for the duration of his visit. (That would be: 8 CFR 214.2(f)(6) and 214.2(m)(9))

Where do USCIS say flight training isn't vocational? The M-1 Visa is for vocational training! Why does noone have any source for these 'new rules'. I've yet to see anything which indicates a visa is required.I've come across this line before, and it could well be correct.

The problem is a practical one.

You turn up in the USA and tell Immigration you are going there for flight training. The officer's last job was packing burgers at MacDonalds.
He has heard of 9/11.
Flight training = 9/11 = terrorist.
His heart rate will hit 140 (it probably idles around 100, being an ex burger bar skipper).
He has a big gun and this boosts his confidence.
You have A BIG PROBLEM!

This sort of thing, Part 61 school, and not mentioning the purpose of the trip to Immigration, has been done loads of times especially further back in time, but you need to find a U.S. flying school which a) understands the regs, b) is willing to listen you your explanation of why you don't need to bring an original copy of the U.S. Constitution, c) is willing to take the risk on a TSA audit by an officer who doesn't understands the regs either (and whose last job was probably at MacDonalds too), d) can be bothered at all in dealing with you when they can train any number of locals who don't ask questions, don't cause trouble, and understand the culture. There aren't many of those schools now.

My experience of U.S. Immigration is exactly as I describe and I would rather spend the day in London getting the visa. It does narrow down the choice of schools because you have to go for a Part 141 school but if you avoid the big ones in Florida (which I gather are currently full of students from India) there are plenty left. I went to Arizona which is super in the winter; great weather with no downtime.

[englishal]

Practically what you do is you email pt 141 school and say "I want to do my CPL". They will then issue you all the visa paperwork / TSA / Whatever. You then train under pt 61 under the umbrella of the pt141 school - because frankly pt 141 is a waste of time unless you are going from zero to CPL/IR.

Actually if you do get a visa then you may as well do the CPL ME rating too - then you'll never need to get another training visa. Practically the CPL is useless without an IR so you may as well do the whole shebang.

The problem is that you may well NOT need a visa, but all flight training in the USA is so paranoid (of the US government I might add) that they have to cover their ars*s to such an extent, you'll be told you need a visa whoever you ask.

[BackPacker]

Actually if you do get a visa then you may as well do the CPL ME rating too

Note that for ME and/or IR you DO need TSA approval.

The reasoning behind this is that your initial PPL, and the ME, and the IR, add significantly to your ability to fly a large aircraft into a large building, but the CPL does not. Hence the difference.