Rw23 @ Lhr

[darrylj]

is RW23 still open / available @ LHR?.

i remember ages now ago when aircraft flew over southall, over the gas tower with the large LH and arrow sign on landing approach during really windy / rainy weather.

just wondered, thats all.

thank you.

[FL370 Officeboy]

No. It was withdrawn a few years ago.

[trident3A]

I believe the last time it was used for landing was back in 2002. Shame really.

[darrylj]

many thank you's.
:ok:

[WHBM]

It was Notamed out of use long term after 2002, for some years, 6-12 months at a time but all the closure periods joined together. Not sure if it theoretically could be just reinstated or if it has gone for good.

This all not too long after it was resurfaced.

BAA plc, wanting more parking stands about 2000, built several at the south end of T4 that impinged on the overrun, saying they would withdraw any aircraft parked there if conditions required it, giving the impression they would do so when strong southerly winds were forecast. This soon translated to saying the parked aircraft would be withdrawn only on request from an inbound aircraft, but it would take three hours to do so, which of course nobody could accept. Haha. Of course the CAA, who in any sane democracy would exist to stop such nonsenses, have all had too many fine entertainments at BAA expense to say anything.

[Seat62K]

I seem to remember a Pan Am 747 had an engine strike the ground when landing on this runway during windy weather.....

[WHBM]

I seem to remember a Pan Am 747 had an engine strike the ground when landing on this runway during windy weather.....
That's nothing. Pan Am had a 707 some years earlier who called they were on finals for 23 - and then toched down at Northolt :)

[trident3A]

And in 1964 a Boac 707 (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19680408-0) suffered an engine fire after departing 28L (as was) and made an emergency landing on the reciprocal (05R) !

[Panop]

As a keen spotter back in the days of REAL aircraft, living under the approach to 23, I used to love the 23 landings as I got great views and heard great sounds (I'd lie awake waiting to hear the regular parade of late night freighters - Balair DC-4 (for Swissair), Aviaco DC-4 (for Iberia) and Air France Breguet Deux Ponts amongst others. I doubt ATC or most pilots were as keen on using 23 and it buggered up the local TV reception!

The PanAm 707 that went to Northolt in error (to get it back out it was stripped of all but the bare essentials and flown out with minimum fuel to get to LHR just 5 crow miles away) was one of a number of aircraft that got LHR 23 and Northolt 26 mixed up. The approaches intersected in the Harrow area and both had similar looking gas holders as visual approach landmarks (near enough) directly under the extended centrelines.

Quite a few pilots lined themselves up nicely on the approach to Northolt in error and had to be shepherded back towards 23 by Heathrow Approach. Eventually the South Harrow gas holder had large NO letters applied and the Southall one had LH painted in large letters with a direction arrow - I believe the LH and arrow are still visible on the Southall tank.

Until about 1970 23 had no ILS so visual and precision radar (now there's a skill!) approaches were the go, often in low cloud base and/or windshear conditions as 23 was only used latterly when approaches to 28s (27s now) were not safe due to crosswinds. There was a great keenness to bust the cloud and become visual as soon as possible by some pilots leading to some interesting issues with the 300 odd foot high Southall gas tank. More than once aircraft had to make sudden detours AROUND the tank which being about 3 miles out was really not a situation they should have been in over the London suburbs! Impressive to see and hear though - memories of an Alitalia DC-8 at about 300 feet and high angle of bank with full power comes to mind!

Also there was a VERY near miss over Harrow in January 1970 when an Indian Air Force Super Constellation (aaah!) apparently tried to go in too low towards Northolt 26 (cloud busting again I suspect) and had to be warned by Northolt GCA that they were in imminent danger of becoming a permanent fixture at Harrow on the Hill so were instructed to make an emergency climbing turn. An Olympic 727 was in cloud on approach to LHR 23 and before Heathrow and Northolt ATCs could co-ordinate any warning the climbing Connie apparently passed so close to the 72 that its full throttle engines could allegedly be heard inside the Boeing! That's close if true! This incident gets a mention in Hansard - HEATHROW AIRPORT (SAFETY STANDARDS) (Hansard, 27 January 1970) (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1970/jan/27/heathrow-airport-safety-standards)

To compound the possibilities of this situation a USAF C-54 (piloted by an about to retire General I seem to recall) actually tried to land at the then closed Hendon field (under the approach to Northolt 26) instead of Northolt in the late 60s which would have been er.., 'interesting'. :ooh:

[chevvron]

Hendon still looked like an airfield up to about '67 or '68, cos that's when the Air Cadet gliding school moved to Bovingdon.

[captain_flynn]

I grew up in Southall until 8yrs ago! Many nice memories of the planes coming over on final to runway 23. The last time I saw them on 23 was December 24th 1999. I moved away the following year.

My dad still lives in Southall and I visit him regularly. He lives on a road thats very close to the southall gasworks so I can confirm for you that the LH titles are still on there.

Unfortunately I think the runway 23 markings have been removed?

Was nice watching them on that runway though. I remember being at primary school, sitting by the window watching the planes coming over and the teachers asking me what types they were.

It was even interesting seeing them fly go arounds over southall, I can only imagine the gusty winds and turbulence made approaches difficult.

I have so many nice memories of sitting by the window with my grandad (who inspired me to fly but sadly died in 1996) watching the planes come over. We used to sit there from the first one to come over to the last one. All kinds of planes, B707's, 727's, B732's, B747's, A300/10's.. So many classics that are rare today.

[Panop]

A few years separate me and Captain Flynn but I relate to his memories - in fact, many years on I can remember more of what I saw through the school windows than what I was supposed to be seeing inside! :\

My nostalgia cells have been working overtime since my last entry above and, for the record (and anyone interested) another of those night freighters I used to lie awake waiting for in the late 1960s was the nightly Sabena DC-6 (whilst typing this a long lost memory file deep in my brain was triggered and the rego OO-CTK came to mind - think I'm on track here).

Also, I'm fairly sure we had a nightly Lufthansa Curtiss C-46 (chartered from Capitol) every night but my memory is not quite as certain - they definitely did visit in daytime on freight runs and I have a vague memory of their distinctive sound at night but that could be a trick of the years - anyone confirm or deny?

There were overnight/early morning arrivals also of Aer Lingus Carvairs (later - I think - chartered out to Aer Turas with a mixture of DC-4 and Bristol 170 types). And KLM DC-7s on early morning daily visits were standard.

Going back further into my (older and dimmer) Southall 23 memories are visions of Ambassadors, Constellations, DC-3s by the dozen, Vikings (same), Convair Liners and Yorks with my father pointing out the differences between them and lighting the fuse of a life long interest. I remember the excitement amongst the boys in my classroom at Featherstone Road Juniors (as it was) when the first Vanguard flew over - the teacher was not as excited I also recall. Aaah - the sound of Tynes (which spookily I still occasionally hear on the far side of the world from the one and only flying Belfast which is based in Oz now).

Bit of a pity that the kids of the area won't have the same opportunity to watch the parade of passing aircraft any more (though the new runway, if it goes ahead, could put aircraft close to southern parts of Southall again) but I don't reckon that the standardised Airbus/Boeing fleets of today would hold as much appeal as those classics anyway - hope I'm wrong.

[TopBunk]

From my logbook - last time I landed on 23 was 1st Feb 2002, flying BA363 LYS-LHR in an A319 from a SRA. Remember it well - a VERY windy day with winds of about 45-50kts from about 190 degrees - pretty much right on crosswind limits for 23 and well out for 27L/R.

Probably landed on it only about 6 times in my BA career between 1989 and when it closed in 2002. Quite interesting waiting for take off and watching a B747-Classic landing on 23 on the reduced available post T4 stand extensions (which did for the ILS). LDA about 1800 metres iirc.

The approach lights are still there for 23 but the taxiway remodelling at LHR means that the old runway has been dug up in the vicinity of the 23 threshold.

Remember as a pax landing on 05 in a Trident (I think) just once from BRU iirc in about 1982.

[Panop]

So, I've got to ask...

Without 23 and south westerly gales still around, has the loss of 23 added much to diversions from LHR or caused any issues with landings on 27 in marginal conditions? Are the newer aircraft THAT much better at crosswind landings? It was often pretty rough wx when 23 was being used.

[sydney skinbone]

Thanks for stirring some very pleasant memories from times long gone. Grew up in Southall from about September 1955 and lived about one mile from the gas holder, landing aircraft used to fly directly over our house.
Can remember all those aircraft mentioned, my own special memory is of TWA Starliner seen from the playground of St. Anselm,s school, magnificient.
All the young boys in the neighbourhood had been, were or would be spotters, it was practically a hobby you had to do.....
I can also remember seeing aircraft flying well to right of the normal 23 L approach and have always assumed they would be landing on 23 R. This would be around the late fifties, early sixties.
Could anyone confirm when 23 R was last used?

[Panop]

23R was still occasionally used until the mid to late 60s but not having much in approach aids was a bit of a last resort.

The westward expansion of Term 3 to cope with the Jumbos did for it I believe.

15R/33L was another last resort runway when the winds howled from the south east or north west. It played havoc with the traffic patterns and caused horrendous delays I believe.

[Midland 331]

>It was often pretty rough wx when 23 was being used

I seem to recall someone posting recenly that he grappled with a particularly "fun" 23 approach to the accompaniment of screams from a passenger in First Class...

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