747 low flyby

[sleeper]

Amazing that no-one has even mentioned this one, while the last TAP flyby took lots of pages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6s0pBqIriwges.


Again not the flyby itself, but the turn afterwards is questionable.

[NZFlyingKiwi]

Your link doesn't appear to work?

[sleeper]

ok,

Try this one:

Low Pass 747 - Airwork (http://www.airwork.nl/bulletinboard/showthread.php?t=8574)

A dutch forum containing the clip

[ray cosmic]

YouTube - 747 Acrobatic Aerosur Torisimo ORIGINAL VIDEO ¨HQ¨¨ (http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=B6s0pBqIriw)

[anartificialhorizon]

:rolleyes:

[1sloth]

the turn afterwards is questionable


. . . . . and your point is. . . ?

:ugh:

[CL30Cpt]

its simply dangerous. he got lucky

[Feather Boa]

The pilot previously worked for CX!!:ooh:

Fx

[Buster Hyman]

Answers to the name of Maverick I believe...

[sleeper]

. . . . . and your point is. . . ?


Point is:
This is a similar situation like the TAP one and yet it got no coverage at all on pprune. I was just wondering why?

[Bokkenrijder]

Cool!

At least there are still some real pilots out there instead of lawyers, managers, beancounters and chickensh!t buttonpushers!

Stop moaning from your ivory tower, instead enjoy a cool video! :ok:

[scrivenger]

Bokkenrijder

Couldn't agree more..............puts the magic back into flying

Bravo

[mustafagander]

You guys just don't get it, do you?

We command big jets because we can exercise restraint and operate within the boundaries we are given.

I, too, would love to do aeros and low passes in a B744 but it is simply against all our training and contrary to the whole ethos within which we operate.

Like it or lump it.

[limp_leek]

Answers to the name of Maverick I believe...

Cool! At least there are still some real pilots out there instead of lawyers, managers, beancounters and chickensh!t buttonpushers!
Stop moaning from your ivory tower, instead enjoy a cool video!



Couldn't agree more..............puts the magic back into flying Bravo


When asked by a reporter to comment on the fly-by Capt Jesse Rhodes and First Officer Richard Peter Cesarz who were real pilots and both answered to the name "Maverick" declined to comment.


Edit: Jesse Rhodes and Peter Cesarz did not comment because they are dead! They pushed the aircraft they were in to the limits and they were not test pilots.

[Time Traveller]

In the 744 sim I tried to beat that record short t/o, circuit and landing time set by an ex-red arrow/VS guy (45 secs airborne or something)

I rotated, thought I was well clear of the ground and whacked on a load of bank

Game over... caught a wing tip and cartwheeled in. I thought - 'no way'; but was assured it was so.

Its a wingy beast - I got taught a lesson there.

[weido_salt]

Yes, once again we see, people in the LHS of an aircraft that should not really be there, as demonstrated in the video clip. Who were they trying to impress?! Certainly didn't impress me.

Very often it is a case, or a mixture of, SPS (small p****s syndrome), lack of air experience, no discipline etc., etc.

Agreed the "turn off the deck" was even more alarming. By the grace of God, and not skill, all this could have ended in tragedy.

It also demonstrates the "relative simplicity" of beautiful Boeing aircraft. However it is a 2 edged sword, that allows chumps like that to be at the controls of said aircraft.

East european and ex mil? My money is on that.

[pacplyer]

Nag Nag Nag,

It was an air show demonstration in the third world in a more golden age. :ok:

In those great days before the nanny society showed up, the chief pilot would have smirked for the record and said: "Don't do that again" and then bought them both a beer in the bar. :cool:

But here in the great government pushbutton world of tomorrow, most pilots couldn't hand fly their way out of a wet paper bag if their lives depended on it (which is pretty much the danger pax face today every time the autopilot fails)..... :=

[L337]

I see children of the nanny state are alive and well.

[limp_leek]

It was an air show demonstration

An airshow demonstration of what?

A demonstration to everyone how the seating pitch was greater than on other airlines?

The food was better?

They were the most punctual airline in the region?

They could low level bomb the arrival airport and bank away before the SAM's got them?

Being honest, large passenger aircraft do not do "displays" well. They do not do anything "sexy"

And the pilots should not try to!


:\

[RVF750]

Not quite nanny state, but those waving their pinkies do have a very valid point.

However, considering he was slow, properly set up and rotated before banking, with a low roll rate, I would suggest this Pf was no chump and had a prety good idea how to perform a low energy manouver that looks nice and doesn't put any stress on his aircraft. (Unlike the poor B52 crew who were g'd into the park).....

I've seen a lot worse, from proper test pilots as well.

[atlast]

Airfield knowledge
Runway slope
Met conditions
Radio altimeter
IVSI
Aircraft wingspan
Flying experience
Experience in type
Crew briefing
Minimum crowd exposure
Minimum occupants on board

Add it all up and how different is this to any other low pass at an airshow apart from the size of the metal? Watch the video again and catch the positive pitch change, pause and then bank and climb.
How beautiful it is!:D

[limp_leek]

How beautiful it is!

I agree!

and how unusual and wrong for that aircraft type to be in that situation!

Oh well, boys will be boys I suppose.

[Conan The Barber]

Would it no be easier for everybody if this thread was locked with a link to the TAP thread. I mean, is there really any need to repeat the same arguments ad nauseam once again?

[atlast]

Sorry Conan, I missed the nausea the first time! Been hanging out over at the Freight Dog part of the board too long. Give me a quick summary and any conclusions and I'll go back to talking to the boxes.;)

[Groundloop]

Being honest, large passenger aircraft do not do "displays" well. They do not do anything "sexy"

Well, you've obviously never seen the South African Airways 747-400 display then.

[dixi188]

What about the South African Airlines 744 airshow.
I believe it is a well practised display.

I saw it at Yeovilton a couple of years ago and it looked very impressive, but I don't think any turns were made at very low level.

[TWT]

The SAA flypast over the Wanderers Stadium just before the final of the Cricket World Cup in 2003 by a 744 and a 346 (just introduced) was very impressive.Low and slow.

A little higher being over a populated area but impressive nonetheless.

[Slats One]

On the one hand, this is proper flying with skill. On the other hand it is not total airmanship and some people say it is bad stuff that should never have been attempted.

Hmm.

It is not as low or as risky the TAP A310 near-wing scrape -that was really close and silly.

But -watch this video carefully and you can see the manoeuvre is planned. The control inputs seem planned and considered- notice how he sets the attitude, increases speed and everything is stable and the wing working.

BUT- did he really look at his altimeter, consult the radio altimeter, and compare and contrast those with the down turn side wingspan and then decide it was safe? Maybe he did/ or maybe it was blend of skill and luck.

This is not reckless flying, but it it is still in-advisable or will someone call a wimp...

[Carnage Matey!]

The baro altimeter has nothing to do with that particular manoeuvre. The wingtip clearance at a given bank angle can be found from the manuals, or a 'worst case' clearance could be calculated with some basic geometry. So long as the rad alt stays at or above the calculated minimum and the bank angle stays at or below the calculated maximum it's not that complex a manoeuvre. If I asked you to fly the simulator at not below 200R and not greater than 30 degrees of bank do you think it would be beyond your skills?

[Will Hung]

Threads like this prove to me just how many people on this site purport to be Airline Pilots, when all they fly is a PC in a room in their house in "Acacia Avenue".

[JW411]

Well, it looks like a very nice and well-planned fly past to me. As someone else commented, too many flight decks nowadays are populated by po-faced people who couldn't hand-fly themselves out of a paper bag.

I'm glad I've retired.

[FlexibleResponse]

Being honest, large passenger aircraft do not do "displays" well. They do not do anything "sexy"

Really?

These are some you-tubes of displays by the biggest pax aircraft in the world:

YouTube - Airbus A380 full display Farnborough 08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRW6T4A-4Qs)

YouTube - Worlds first Airbus A380 Display, New Brighton, Wirral 12.7. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isoy-sPuAAs)

YouTube - A380 exhibition in Le Bourget (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OS1MVS16Hk&feature=related)

[Rainboe]

Well done that man (or woman)! I'd have loved to see it at an airshow! What a load of old finger-wagging women there are here! Good one, and just ignore the miseries here! I had 10 years on that model, and this was someone who knew what he was doing.

[B747-800]

Waiting to do my first new delivery in 5 days - done a couple of re-deliveries but without the thrill!

[Captain Airclues]

I agree with JW411. This looks like a well flown fly past to me.

I have only been involved with one fly past in a 747 (EGPK 20/8/88). We had to submit detailed plans to the CAA including calculations of minimum heights and bank angles. We then had to fly the agreed procedure in the simulator before obtaining CAA approval. All this for an event that lasted only a few seconds.

If it is flown with only the (consenting) crew on board and the event has been well planned then I can't see the harm in it.

Dave

[B747-800]

We had to submit detailed plans to the CAA including calculations of minimum heights and bank angles. We then had to fly the agreed procedure in the simulator before obtaining CAA aproval. All this for an event that lasted only a few seconds.

If it is flown with only the (consenting) crew on board and the event has been well planned then I can't see the harm in it.


Dave, agree with you and that's what we are training for in the sim.

[weido_salt]

"....and the event has been well planned then I can't see the harm in it."

Fair comment and provided nothing goes wrong there would be no harm.

The B-52 accident was probably practised in the sim and many times over in the aircraft, given the almost limitless resources of the US military and we all know the result of that display.

When it does go wrong, not only the aircraft is broken but also probably the whole airline company with mass redundancies, increased insurance premiums etc., all for a couple of seconds of "fun". I have trouble understanding why airlines allow this sort of display flying (assuming this display was authorized) to take place when it all could go wrong, with the resulting consequences.

The simulator is the place to get "yourself off" with this sort of flying if required, not in an expensive aircraft, with massive third party implications.

[Carnage Matey!]

If it's that B52 accident then it wasn't practiced in the sim, it was just flown badly by the P1 who'd previously been reprimanded for his unauthorised antics. Hardly the same scenario.

[weido_salt]

Oh, ok I stand corrected.

Maybe this was the same scenario?

[drivez]

If they can't fly their way out of a paper bag what do they spend 2-3 years in flight school doing? There was me thinking they were learning to fly.

[drivez]

werido_salt good comment but although there is an element of risk involved in the fly-by, the airline would also realise that it is a free promotion of the airline, the thousands of people at the airshow and indeed on youtube see an exciting well performed piece of flying so therefore think of the airline as having good aircraft operated by well trained, skilled crews. And therefore they fly that airline because at the end of the day no matter how cheap the ticket if the airline flys old aircraft that fail often with poorly skilled pilots they don't fly with them.

[misd-agin]

IF they actually did the analysis of the relationship to their radar altimeter height vs. allowable bank angle it's not that bad.

IF they didn't they're dumb, and maybe got very lucky.

Any bank angle starts making it a completely different event, especially with long wingspan aircraft.

[Kerosine]

If they can't fly their way out of a paper bag what do they spend 2-3 years in flight school doing? There was me thinking they were learning to fly.

There's a difference between 'learning to fly' and this chap did. I think the comment about the paper bag is referring to how newly trained pilots may (apparently!) be too reliant on technology to fly the aircraft.


And therefore they fly that airline because at the end of the day no matter how cheap the ticket if the airline flys old aircraft that fail often with poorly skilled pilots they don't fly with them.


Being in a country with a well established regulatory body (CAA) I can't imagine safety is a concern of the average consumer, I'm sure people will almost always go for the cheapest knowing they all meet minimum safety standards.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I think this has gone as far as it can go.

Thanks for your inputs.

PPP