Positioning within a FDP

[Crewing Gimp]

Just a question for you guys

Does anyone in the Ops manual have anything about when postioning within an FDP counting as a sector (aware it counts when calculating a split duty).
I have had this questioned now twice, which has got me thinking:confused:

The Gimp

[merlinxx]

Answer is:

01/ Your area of applied CIVAV authority be it FAA, CAA, JAA/EASA etc
Think FAR91/121/135 etc (Flag, Supplemental etc)
02/ Do you have an industrial (union) agreement regarding FTLs/FDPs
03/ Is the Dead Heading/Positioning pre/post actual hands flying

I can advz/answer some subject to the above.

[no sig]

Gimp

Check the definition of a sector and positioning in your FTL scheme and I think you'll find it refers to the 'time between taxi out and on block', if you are positioning you're not in command or a required crew member of an aircraft. Therefore a positioning sector does not count as a duty sector with respect to table A & B, but your FTL scheme in your Ops Manual is the authority on the matter.

CAP 371 has this to say about it:

Chapt 11 Positioning

All time spent on positioning at the behest of an operator shall count as duty, but positioning does not count as a sector when calculating the FDP. In these circumstances the FDP commences not later than the time at which the crew member reports for the positioning journey, or positions in accordance with paragraph 9.3.

[Crewing Gimp]

Thanks for info guys

As per Cap371 definition (nothing in agreements either), but as I said it has been said to me twice now. Must be coming from somewhere.... Will put it down to crew room chinese whispers.:ugh:

The Gimp

[dc9-32]

Scenario:

LGW based.

Rostered for a 1200z BHX-TFS-LGW 2230z

Take the taxi from LGW to BHX at 0630z.

FDP starts at 0630z for a 2 sector day. And the FDP ends at 2230z,

Unlikely duty as the crew would normally night stop in BHX the night before, but duties like the above have happened in the past.........how ?

[boredcounter]

We have nothing in the OM regarding positioning counting as a sector (excl split). We do, however have reference to people jumpseating to start duty at their base from home. (Nomads). Due fatigue, a nomad positioning to work foc on the only available jumpseat flight, is on FDP 90 mins after the departure of that flight. It does not count as a sector, but it starts the clock ticking.

Ref no sig's (quick) definition of 'sector', I hope all OM's now include the phrase 'until brakes on after landing' or similar, or an RTO or return to stand will bite the FDP.

Funniest one I ever heard:

'CAP371 clearly states, when positioning on the P3 seat, positioning counts as a sector'. Never found that in 371, never had the heart to tell said Captain we don't work to CAP371, we work to the approved company FTLS...........................

[Phileas Fogg]

From memory I recall that under UK rules positioning may count as a sector if they position and then take a split duty before operating, or similar, have a read of the split duty rules.

Of course this can work in the favour of the operator if the crew are away from base, they arrive at the airport, get a delay and the allowable FDP is ticking away, just call the trip from the hotel a positioning sector and put them on a split duty!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

gimp
If it's in a hire car driven by the crew member then indeed it counts as a sector (CAP371). Otherwise it's banter.

DC9-32
Not possible within CAP371,the taxi time to BHX's looks a bit dodgy also
:\

[boredcounter]

It's not the old CC one of 'I armed the door, therefore I worked on that sector not positioned'?

I have had that one a few times when moving an empty aircraft from A-B.



Bored

[Big Tudor]

Vague as only CAP371 can be. You have to read the three parts together to make sense of it all.

'Positioning' - All time spent on positioning at the behest of the operator shall count as duty, but positioning does not count as a sector when calculating the FDP.
If, after a positioning journey, the crew member spends less than the minimum rest period at suitable accommodation provided by the operator, and then carries out a FDP, the positioning must be counted as a sector if a split duty is claimed when calcualting the allowable FDP.

'Sector' - The time between an aircraft moving under its own power until it next comes to rest after landing, on the designated parking position. (That covers yer return to stand boredcounter)

'Split Duty' - A flying duty period which consists of two or more sectors, separated by less than a minimum rest period.

Therefore, a split has to be 2 sectors. If you have one sector and one positioning you have to count the positioning as a sector. All other times positioning doesn't count. Looks like people are getting confused as to when positioning counts as a sector and when it doesn't Gimp.

Of course, what it says in CAP371 and what it says in yer Ops Manual can be 2 different things. There's only one that counts though. :ugh:

dc9-32 As Mr A from P says, that duty don't look right. 4:30 from LGW-BHX is a bit on the generous side. And starting at 06:30z, the most you could possibly go to would be 20:15z using cabin crew FDP and Level 2 variation. Planned discretion? Surely not :hmm:

[Little warrior]

At our place...

Time spent positioning is included in the duty time but the sector is only counted when positioning prior to operating. If positioning after operating, the sector is not counted for purpose of calculating max FDP. LW

[excrewingbod]

boredcounter,

Re Cabin Crew on positioning sectors - the CAA (SRG) clarified a few years back that if the folks down the back did indeed conduct their normal safety duties - i.e. securing exits etc, whilst on a positioining sector then that sector will count towards calculating the maximum FDP.

CAA SRG
Having no passengers on board does not mean that the sector
is not counted as forming part of the flying duty period.
'Deadheading' (or positioning) as passengers can only be
claimed when the crew are 'looked after' by at least one cabin
crewmember and they are not required to take part in any
activity associated with cabin safety or cabin service duties.

[boredcounter]

Been out of the pax world since 2004, never knew that one.

Bored