CNN report- Nine people are presumed dead, helicopter crash California.

[forget]

CNN is reporting --- Nine people are presumed dead after the crash of a helicopter carrying firefighters in California, the FAA says.

[Aser]

9 believed dead, 4 injured in firefighter helicopter crash

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(CNN) -- Nine people were missing and presumed dead and four were hospitalized Wednesday after the crash of a Sikorsky S-61 helicopter Tuesday night, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration said.
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* KCRA: 9 believed dead in helicopter crash

Three of the injured were contract firefighters battling wildfires, and the fourth was the pilot, spokesman Ian Gregor said. The crash occurred 35 miles northwest of Redding in the Shasta-Trinity National Forest in northern California.

The chopper had gone into a remote area to pick up firefighters, Gregor said. He identified those aboard as two crew members and 11 firefighters

Really sad.
Take care in the fires :(

Aser

[Gordy]

Link Here (http://www.redding.com/news/2008/aug/06/two-critical-two-serious-after-fire-copter-crash/)

Many pilots in Norcal know one of the victims, (not at liberty to reveal just yet)...RIP

[Senior Pilot]

Full text of Gordy's link :sad:

UPDATED: Eight firefighters, one crew member believed dead in Trinity County helicopter crash

By David Benda (http://www.redding.com/staff/david-benda/) (Contact (http://www.redding.com/staff/david-benda/contact/))
Originally published 07:59 a.m., August 6, 2008
Updated 01:34 p.m., August 6, 2008





Eight firefighters and one helicopter crew member are missing and believed dead in Tuesday's helicopter crash on the north end of the Buckhorn Fire in Trinity County, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said today.
Some fatalities were confirmed earlier this morning by the U.S. Forest Service, which earlier had announced that nine people were missing after the crash.
Identities of the nine who are believed dead have not been released.
The helicopter pilot and three firefighters were injured in the crash, which was reported at about 7:45 p.m. Tuesday near Junction City.
Spokesman Mike Odle said he cannot confirm whether the missing people were aboard the Sikorsky S-61 helicopter when it crashed or were on the ground. Odle said three of the injured were contract fire fighters working for Greyback Forestry Inc. of Merlin, Ore. Odle didn’t know whether any Forest Service personnel were on board the helicopter.
The crash happened in what Odle called “very rugged terrain” and he said an investigative team is trying to reach the crash site this morning.
But the FAA spokesman said the helicopter had picked up 11 firefighters and was departing when it crashed “for unknown reasons.”
The four who were injured in the crash suffered burns and were taken to Mercy Medical Center in Redding on Tuesday night aboard a Black Hawk helicopter that flew to the scene from Redding. The four injured include the pilot and the three contract fire fighters.
Trinity County Sheriff Lorac Craig said he has two deputies at the crash site, but they can’t get to helicopter because it’s still very hot.
“Once those things get to burning, they are very hard to put out,” Craig said.
Craig couldn’t confirm the number of fatalities.
“That is the assumption; we haven’t been able to prove that (nine presumed dead). . . . I don’t know where they are getting their information. It certainly not from us,” Craig said of the information coming from the FAA.
Three of the injured, including the pilot, have now been transferred to the University of California at Davis Medical Center. One contract fire fighter is in critical condition there and the pilot and second contract fire fighter are listed in serious condition, the spokeswoman said. The fourth victim remains at Mercy in serious but stable condition, she said.
Identities of the victims, who were aboard a helicopter assigned to a Trinity County forest fire, were still not available at the press conference. Odle said the families of the injured have been notified.
Craig said he believes the helicopter came down in a ravine. There are no walking trails to the crash site, so authorities are having to be flown in, Craig said.
“You can reach it by ground, but it may take a day,” Craig said.
Craig couldn’t say how rescuers were able to reach the four injured people but couldn’t get to the nine others.
“The initial story is those four walked out and were found, but nothing’s official at this point,” Craig said.
The helicopter was operated by Carson Helicopters Inc., a contract firefighting company out of Grants Pass, Ore. A spokeswoman at the firm declined to identify the pilot and crew member.
The craft went down at the north end of the 15,848-acre Buckhorn Fire sometime before 7:45 p.m.
The helicopter went down about 100 feet from an unpaved landing spot about 15 miles west of Junction City, said a Forest Service spokeswoman.
The FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are investigating the crash.
“I am not expecting the NTSB until tomorrow,” Craig said.
A team of NTSB investigators left Washington D.C. at 4 p.m. EDT today.
In August 2006, a Sikorsky CH-54 crashed into the Klamath River near Happy Camp, which killed the pilot and co-pilot. The two men had been flying the helicopter to drop water on the Titus Fire.

[VeeAny]

I HOPE that the FAA preliminary is more accurate

N*****, A SIKORSKY S-61N ROTORCRAFT, WHILE TRANSPORTING FIRE FIGHTERS,
CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THERE WERE 13 PERSONS ON BOARD, 4
SUSTAINED SERIOUS INJURIES AND 3 SUSTAINED MINOR INJURIES, 38 MILES FROM
REDDING, CA

Which may imply less fatalites than CNN reports. It always seems worse when the people who are hurt or killed are doing something worthwhile (regardless of whether they are being paid, before anyone says anything).

RIP to the guys involved.

[Gordy]

"I HOPE that the FAA preliminary is more accurate"

So do I , but unfortunately not.

[Markcl10]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/us/07copter.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=sl&oref=slogin

[old61driver]

My heart goes out to all involved in this tragedy. It is the worst helicopter accident in the US Forest Service's history.

The Sikorsky 61n is a great, reliable helicopter. It was originally designed for a maritime role and performs very well at sea level. Having flown them for many years I know that as density alt and temp increase this aircraft performance suffers more so than most (especially Cat A) in an almost exponetial curve above 3000ft.
I certainly don't wish to imply anything, but 13 pax in the mountains high and hot was never what this machine was designed to do.These ships have been tanked and hauling water for years, and only recently started a multi-mission role hauling firefighters.
It is much easier to take less water than you say you are, and be able to dump a little, than to get rid of internal cargo if you are too heavy or lose a stove.

My prayers are with the recovering survivors, the families left behind, and the hope that nothing as tragic as this ever happens again.

[Lt.Fubar]

Carson modified those helicopters extensively, and also stated that their "Fire Kings" operate very well in hot & high environment. They even said that at high altitudes it outperformed the Ericsson's AirCranes (Vertical magazine Aug-Sep 2006). So I wouldn't blame the machine yet. I'm personally far from speculation, and waiting for the final report.

[Mast Bumper]

My thoughts and best wishes go out to the families. This is a tragic event.

[Aser]

NTSB: Chopper crash investigation hampered by fire danger | KDRV (http://kdrv.com/page/34154)
August 7, 2008

WEAVERVILLE, Ca. -- The National Transportation Safety Board, the Federall Aviation Administration, and the U.S. Forest Service are working to determine how a chopper carrying 13 passengers, 2 pilots and 11 firefighters, crashed in the Shasta-Trinity National Forest Tuesday, 35 miles northwest of Redding near Junction City, California.

In a press conference Thursday, NTSB officials say the investigation is hampered by the fact that rugged terrain and fire danger are keeping crews from recovering the helicopter wreckage and retrieving the bodies. They say a flight recorder on board could provide some clues if it is not too severely damaged.

One of the survivors says it seemed like the helicopter's rotor hit a tree as it lifted off to take firefighters back to base camp. Two of the survivors were on fire as they escaped the chopper:

"The third escaped under his own power and did go back to rescue and pull out the fourth survivor," says Kitty Higgins with NTSB.

The NTSB says there were 30 witnesses to the crash. Investigators do not know when they will be able to retrieve the bodies and wreckage because it is surrounded by fire and very rugged terrain, in a remote area.

Of the 13 people on board the chopper, 9 are presumed dead and four are injured.

Aser

[Blade Wake]

Carson are a great bunch of people and very professional; I am so sorry to hear of this tragedy.

My thoughts are with all those who are affected.

RIP

BW

[502VJ]

All the Carson crews are excellent, all the best to the Survivors and the families of all on board...Very Sad!

[Aser]

Helicopter's voice recorder suffered heat damage
SignOnSanDiego.com > News > State -- Helicopter's voice recorder suffered heat damage (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20080815-1102-ca-californiawildfires-crash.html)

I thought the cvr was stronger, like airplanes FDR :sad:


Aser

[JimL]

They are - they have to meet the same requirements.

Jim

[Outwest]

Rumor floating around this was an input (freewheel) failure......unfortunately the weakest link in a 61.

[Gordy]

A follow up on the site.

I just finished hauling the last of the dirt and smaller debris off the accident site. Because the site is in a designated "wilderness area" the task had to be completed with minimum impact. We flew in a Hazmat team who worked with hand tools for a week filling 1,000 lb bags with "contaminated dirt" whci we slung off. We had a 36nm round trip each flight, (could not land in the "wilderness" area), for a total of 90 seperate flights and over 50,000 lbs of dirt. The site is now "re-habbed" back to its natural state.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFawnduh%2008/Iron-1.jpg

RIP to all 9.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFawnduh%2008/IMG_2289.jpg

[Aser]

Three months later, co-pilot of doomed helicopter recovering - Breaking News From Oregon & Portland - Oregonlive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/11/three_months_later_copilot_of.html)

A good read for the "too hot for the summer"-anti-flightsuit-guys

Regards
Aser

[Ned-Air2Air]

Go to the very bottom of the CD list and download the Misc Correspondence file. Some very interesting reading and accusations being made in those letters, damm. :eek:

[Hedge36]

The condition of the unpacked FCUs is certainly interesting, isn't it?

[SASless]

Sad to read a friend's last words......"Fly Darling!"

I miss his great sense of humour and smile!

[61Driver]

Trying to make sense of this tragedy... Hoping to learn from others mistakes/misfurtunes to hopefully prevent becoming a statistic myself... Apologies in advance for the long thread but this issue has me a bit worked up...:ugh:

List of NTSB documents:
CD List Of Contents (http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/LAX08PA259/)

First off, it's maddening and unacceptable that the maintenance records are so poor that no one can say for sure what the aircraft actually weighed... two weight and balance forms dated 04 Jan 08 that are incomplete and don't match!? Logbook entries for hoist and fire king water tank installation stating that W&B was updated with no subsequent weight and balance changes made... It seems plausible that the aircraft was 1000lb heavier than the records furnished to the Pilot for performance calcs... that is absolutely unacceptable... criminal in my mind.

FCU (fuel control unit) chain of control wasn't handled very well it seems... If that was a possible culprit I'd sure bloody like to know about it, being I have two of those overhead keeping me aloft. I'm having a bit of a problem adopting the fcu failure scenario because of the lack of cockpit indicators. The audio analysis indicates the engines went to topping on all heavy passenger carrying fllghts (as the flat 101 on the Ng shows). This makes me believe that the aircraft was at its performance limit (which supports the "heavier than RFM indicated" theory). If the fcu was failing as Carson suggests (stator vane failing to open which allows full ng without achieving rated power output) I would assume to see unusually high T5 (tot) temperatures... a similiar situation to having an ng input sense failure. The copilot was doing a good job of monitoring and calling out flight parameters (as the cvr transcripts show) so I would expect to hear a call out for high temps if that was the case...

[Gordy]

NTSB Site (http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2010/101201.html)

NTSB TO MEET ON 2008 U.S. FOREST SERVICE CONTRACT FIREFIGHTING HELICOPTER CRASH IN WEAVERVILLE, CALIFORNIA

The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a public Board meeting on Tuesday, December 7, at 9:30 a.m., in its Board Room and Conference Center, 429 L'Enfant Plaza, S.W., Washington, D.C.

There is one item on the agenda. The Board will consider a final report on the following accident:

On August 5, 2008, a Sikorsky S-61N helicopter (N612AZ), impacted trees and terrain during the initial climb after takeoff, located at an elevation of about 6,000 feet in mountainous terrain near Weaverville, California. Impact forces and a post-crash fire destroyed the helicopter, which was being operated by the U.S. Forest Service as a public flight to transport firefighters and was contracted with Carson Helicopters, Inc. As a result of this accident, nine occupants were fatally injured and four were seriously injured.

A live and archived webcast of the proceedings will be available on the Board's website at National Transportation Safety Board (http://www.ntsb.gov). Technical support details are available under "Board Meetings." To report any problems, please call 703-993-3100 and ask for Webcast Technical Support.

A summary of the Board's final report, which will include findings, probable cause and safety recommendations, will appear on the website shortly after the conclusion of the meeting. The entire report will appear on the website several weeks later.

NEW TEMPORARY DIRECTIONS (due to ongoing construction) to the NTSB Board Room: Front door located on Lower 10th Street, directly below L'Enfant Plaza. From Metro, exit L'Enfant Plaza station at 7th and D Streets escalator, turn left, cross 7th Street, walk a half block, take stairs on left and walk into the entrance marked La Promenade, walk through shopping mall, turn right at florist shop, see the CVS store (on the left) and take escalator (on the right) down one level. The Board room will be to your left.

[Hell Man]

Carson Helicopters contests NTSB findings for Iron 44 crash.

Frank Carson in a letter to the NTSB stated that his company "believed that important evidence had been mishandled and was then ignored by the NTSB investigators in order to close the investigation as quickly as possible."

"The NTSB ignored the experienced copilot's direct testimony that he saw signs of power loss in the #2 engine immediately prior to the crash and they ignored his direct reading of the actual air temperature at the scene in favor of manufactured data that fit their preconceived narrative.

"The NTSB lost care and custody of fuel control unit (FCU) parts early in this investigation and from that point forward did not pursue evidence chains leading to the fuel control units."

President Carson went on to say: "On December 7, 2010 when the NTSB held a news conference stating that the main cause of the accident was Carson's alleged use of false charts and weights, I knew that my faith in a fair and impartial investigation had been ill-founded."

"Carson strongly believes that the accident was caused by the loss of power to the #2 engine due to contamination in the fuel control, which the NTSB chose to ignore even after reviewing indisputable evidence brought to its attention. The NTSB's lack of interest in looking beyond its initial conclusion is fortified by its failure to interview the surviving copilot who clearly remembers that the #2 engine lost power before the crash."

Carson Helicopters contests NTSB findings for Iron 44 crash | KDRV (http://kdrv.com/page/201595)

[zalt]

Looks like Frank is pretty p1ssed at Sikorsky too. Odd that Sikorsky are using Carson blades for the 61T.

[Gordy]

Justice being served (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/16/executive-sentenced-to-12-years-in-helicopter-case-crash-killed-7-firefighters/)

RIP my friends... You are not forgotten.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/LaFawnduh%2008/IMG_2289.jpg


MEDFORD, Ore. – A former executive was sentenced Tuesday to nearly 13 years in prison after admitting he provided false performance specifications to win a firefighting contract for a helicopter that crashed on a 2008 forest fire in California, killing seven firefighters and two pilots.

The deaths rank as the worst toll of working firefighters in a helicopter crash in U.S. history.

In passing sentence in U.S. District Court, Judge Ann Aiken scolded former Carson Helicopters vice president Steven Metheny for breaking every oath he had ever taken, from his time as an Eagle Scout growing up in Connecticut, to being a helicopter pilot for the National Guard in Connecticut and Oregon.

"In the end, you betrayed all your friends and family and the oaths you have taken," she told Metheny, 45. "If you had been found out and no one died, I would impose the same sentence."

Metheny had pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud, as well as making false statements. He was sentenced to 12 years and seven months in federal prison. He reports in two months.

Though not directly charged with the deaths, Aiken said Metheny had put in motion a chain of events leading to the crash by giving the U.S Forest Service and pilots flying the Sikorsky S-61 helicopter false weight and balance charts and performance standards used to calculate how many passengers and cargo they could carry in different conditions.

The helicopter crashed while taking off with members of a Grayback Forestry crew from Merlin, Oregon, who were being pulled off the line on the Iron 44 fire outside Weaverville, California, in anticipation of approaching thunderstorms. The helicopter crashed while taking off from a clearing cut in heavy timber near the top of a mountain. Four firefighters survived.

When the deadline came for submitting weight and balance charts on the crash helicopter for the firefighting contract, the aircraft was in pieces at Carson's facility in Perkasie, Pennsylvania, Aiken said. So Metheny submitted estimates based on a formula put together by Carson chief mechanic Levi Phillips. Metheny maintained the fraud by putting made-up performance charts in the helicopter flight manual used by pilots.

Aiken sentenced Phillips to two years and one month in prison for his role in the plot.

The plot unraveled when investigators realized that the weights offered by Metheny were in tenths of a pound, and the Carson scale in Pennsylvania measured in whole pounds, prosecutor Byron Chatfield said. National Transportation Safety Board investigators also realized that the performance charts for the helicopter did not match the performance charts from the factory.

By the time it was flying over the Iron 44 fire, the helicopter was 1,400 pounds heavier than the charts supplied to the U.S. Forest Service and to pilots calculating how much of a payload the helicopter could handle, making it harder to take off in extreme conditions, the prosecution argued.

Defense lawyer Steven Myers argued that the helicopter pilot could have avoided the crash by doing a standard maneuver on takeoff, where the pilot hovers and checks his gauges.

Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times. "Whether the gauges were right or not, the pilot didn't have the right information," Aiken told Metheny.

Families of the dead firefighters had poured out their grief and anger during the hearing on Monday. But by the time the prison sentences were issued Tuesday, many said they were satisfied with the outcome.

"I wish I could say I forgive Metheny," said Juanita Gomez, who wore a photo around her neck of her son, Edrik, who was 19 and fighting fires to pay for college when he was killed. Four months after his death, Edrik's father died, unable to live with the loss, she had told the court.

"I am in the process of starting to do that, which is a big process for me," she said. "I do feel like a load has been lifted. We needed this ending."

Paul Steele, whose son, David, was killed, said the judge told Metheny what all of the grieving family members had wanted to tell him: You have inflicted a huge loss on a lot of people, and you need to make amends.

"He said he was sorry for our loss. But I don't think he ever said he was sorry for what he did," Steel said. "I think there is a distinction there."

Donna Rich, who lost her 29-year-old son, Bryan, said she felt Metheny should have gotten a longer sentence "for the lives he destroyed. He just walks around like he has nothing to worry about, like he is paying a traffic ticket."

Also killed in the crash were check pilot Jim Ramage, 63, of Redding, California; command pilot Roark Schwanenberg, 54, of Lostine, Oregon; and firefighters Shawn Blazer, 19, of Ashland; Scott Charlson, 25, of Phoenix, Oregon; Matthew Hammer, 23, of Grants Pass; and Steven Caleb Renno, 21, of Cave Junction.

[Nigel Osborn]

Obviously this was a terrible accident but one of the advantages a helicopter has over a fixed wing aircraft is that during take off to the hover, the pilot can check his power available & c of g which the fixed wing pilot can't. Therefore that pilot must do his calculations before attempting take off. I'm sure there isn't a helicopter pilot anywhere that hasn't taken off over weight or on c of g limits without having a good idea that was the case.
During 45 years of helicopter operations I have often had to off load freight or people as I was clearly over weight. This can happen when you are doing running turn rounds & someone else is doing the manifest. The worst case I had was when I was given a manifest for a 212 & was 2000 pounds over weight! The controller had put the 12 passengers & freight onto one manifest, not two!

[Gomer Pylot]

The judge's father crashed 13 times?? And that is relevant how?

Defense lawyer Steven Myers argued that the helicopter pilot could have avoided the crash by doing a standard maneuver on takeoff, where the pilot hovers and checks his gauges.

Aiken dismissed that argument, noting her father had flown helicopters in the Korean War, crashing 13 times.

Wow. Just wow.

[13snoopy]

True story:
A position opened on the general district court bench and our local BAR was pushing for a particular attorney to get the judgeship but said lawyer wasn't known to be particularly bright. I asked a local attorney why they wanted this guy on the bench and I'll never forget his reply: "We don't want anybody too smart up there."