There is (sometimes) life ex-Ryanair !

[OFSO]

On 15th October I'm travelling from my house in Province Girona, Catalunia, to Paris. I live half way between Girona and Perpignan. So how to go ?

Ryanair GRN to Paris €10, exceptionally no taxes levied

TGV train Perpignan to Paris €40

But then consider: the TGV price is for a first class reclining seat in the upstairs lounge. Ryanair ? The usual jam-packed flight, screaming kids kicking back of miniature non-reclining seat etc.

And how quick is it ?

Trip Duration to centre of Paris by Air:

Drive to airport...1 hr

Preboarding wait....2 hrs

Flight Time circa.... 1.5 hrs

Wait for baggage (approx).....30 mns

Bus from Beauvais - FR flight doesn't land in Paris---1hr

Six hours total - then look at the train:

Trip Duration to centre of Paris by Train:

Drive to station..... 1hr

TGV Train..............5hrs

Six hours total in a comfortable armchair with a buffet car a few steps away at around 300kph.

Baggage charged extra on Ryanair. Priority boarding charged extra on Ryanair. Use of credit card charged extra on Ryanair. All are free on the TGV, you have to be there before it departs, not two hours - could be a few minutes - and baggage is "two suitcases of any size but you must be able to lift them onto the train yourself. Max length 2 metres"

Which would you choose ?

RaF

[Katamarino]

Me? Choo Choo!

[Mr Quite Happy]

Ryanair, mostly because you've padded the timings.

If the TGV were at all comfortable (I've travelled on that cattle truck from Zurich to Paris and was not impressed) like the ICE then maybe. Frankly 6 hours is a longtime in a hard barely padded chair...

Does the TGV have power points? The only way I'd do 6 hours is with a laptop for work/movies.

For others, I suspect the main decider might be the departure arrival time.

E.g. Your 6 hour TGV journey will likely not arrive in paris before midday and likewise, not allow you to leave Paris to get back to Girona after 5pm.

Ergo, if you want to get to Paris whilst its still morning, or leave late (granted 5.01pm is working late in Paris) then Ryanair, or another carrier, might be your only choice.

[OFSO]

Is the TGV comfortable ? Individual leather armchairs which are electrically reclining, pull-out footrests, laptop plug-ins...yo, very comfortable ! And you can get up and walk around, visit the lower deck. Ladies toilets are usually on the upper deck, mens on the lower.

I normally take a bottle of cava and smoked salmon or chicken to eat - each seat has proper tables - but the buffet bar is OK.

Make travelling by air look the cattle class it really is.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I worked in Brussels and lived at Zaventem, right next to the airport.

It was far more relaxing for me to get a cab to Gare du Midi and take the Eurostar to London, have my breakfast on board and read the paper / my book for 2 and bit hours than take the cab to the airport, check in, hang around, sit through the slot delay, trudge through LHR to the train to Paddington and pay a shed load extra dosh for that, just to get to Kings Cross about the same time.

I can drive from Nottingham (home) to my mother's in Glasgow in the same time the flight takes, including travel to / from the airport, chcek in etc.

When I lived at Shannon though, flying was always quicker than driving and the ferry, just because of the ferry trip and Irish roads!!

Short haul, up to an hour flight time, it is always worth checking the train times.

[Pax Vobiscum]

You forgot to mention the biggest plus of train travel - no moronic security restrictions :ok:

When the new Brussels-Cologne high speed track is fully open ('real soon now'), I hear DB are applying for chunnel slots to run ICEs through to St Pancras. That would make London-Cologne around 4 hours, which must be very competitive with flying unless you live in Hounslow or Chelmsford - and Stuttgart will look quite attractive, too.

My preferred seats are upstairs on a duplo TGV, or (best of all) the 'observation' seats on an ICE3, with just a glass screen between you and the driver's window.

[Avman]

You forgot to mention the biggest plus of train travel - no moronic security restrictions

Very true, but is it just a matter of time........? Nevertheless, at that price for a 1st Class seat, I'd go with the train for sure.

OK, I confess, I NEVER fly Ryanair as a matter of principle!

[rothin]

Surely the main air service from your area is Perpignan Rivesaltes to Paris Orly operated by Air France. Why doesn't AF appear in this comparison?

http://www.perpignan.cci.fr/files/Aeroport/DAparts-vols-AtA-2008.pdf

A quick fish for prices shows 1st class TGV & AF have similar single fares at between about €80 and €150.

[OFSO]

A quick fish for prices shows 1st class TGV & AF have similar single fares at between about €80 and €150.

No they aren't ! I book about six tickets a year on the TGV Perpignan - Paris, and the PREMS non-flexi price for the train tickets is €40 per person, has been for two years.

Yes, you have to be early with your reservations - the window opens three months before the trip and the special-price tickets go fast, but the ticket office staff (people, not computers) at Perpignan station are amazingly helpful and work out the reductions and discounts.

And as everyone agrees, for luxury the TGV first class has it over flying.

Incidently when the TGV is late arriving, you are met at your destination station by railway staff with claims/refund forms, send 'em in and you get discount vouchers redeemable against your next trip. Like to see FR or easyJet (or Air France) doing that.

[rothin]

Yes, you have to be early with your reservations - the window opens three months before the trip and the special-price tickets go fast, but the ticket office staff (people, not computers) at Perpignan station are amazingly helpful and work out the reductions and discounts.Brilliant, but let's now factor in the additional 2.5 hours to drive up to Perpignan station, queue for the helpful people at the guichet and drive back again.

On the other hand it is old news that the the TGV is damaging all French domestic air travel. Look at what happened to Air Littoral, so I'm not sure that this is anything especially to do with Ryanair, it's more a plug for SNCF.

This train travel thing will become a lot more convincing when you can book, say, Girona - Glasgow direct, on a single website.

Meanwhile it's horses for courses.

[Avman]

Brilliant, but let's now factor in the additional 2.5 hours to drive up to Perpignan station, queue for the helpful people at the guichet and drive back again.

:confused: You better read post #1 again rothin. Don't know where you get the 2.5 hr drive from. And, I imagine the advanced reservation is made by phone - not by having to drive there and back.

[OFSO]

Everyone posting is right on this one in one way or another - horses for courses indeed.

In our family, we make around 20 FR flights out of GRN a year and 6 TGV trips.

Paris always by TGV, more comfortable. (Couldn't be less than FR could it !)

London by FR, faster/cheaper. Always back via Perpignan as GRN is an appalling inefficient place to land.

Madrid also by FR as the RENFE website for the AVE - Spanish version of the TGV - is a disaster area and I've never yet succeeded in booking tickets on it.

And I do drive to Perpignan to book train tickets as I get special deals that way, and also stop at Auchan on the way back for cheese, meat, fish and vegetables.

And one poster said it all: until one can book on a single ticket a train ride from (say) Perpignan or Marseille or Montpellier - to London direct - FR and easyJet will have it their way. At the moment it's one cheap TGV ticket to Paris or Lille and one expensive Eurostar from there to London. Completely crazy ! One Europe ? Don't make me laugh.

[Pax Vobiscum]

The Eurostar web site allows you to book to/from any station in the UK from/to major stations in France (including Perpignan), Germany and Benelux - I did this last year and got tickets from High Wycombe-Strasbourg. Of course the Eurostar segment is still an order of magnitude more expensive than continental travel (maybe part of that is the chunnel fee, we'll have to see what happens if DB start through trains), and the Wycombe-London segment cost almost as much as Paris-Strasbourg :sad:

London-Strasbourg takes only 4.5 hours, which must be competitive with flying, though it does involve a 500m stroll from Gare du Nord to Gare de l'Est.

[rothin]

Avman -
Post #1
Trip Duration to centre of Paris by Train:
Drive to station..... 1hrRound trip 2 hours + half hour in queue and haggling = 2.5 hours.:ok:

Actually my daughter does book SNCF PREMS fares online and the tickets can be printed online too. They have interesting security features to stop fraud or reselling.
She has also found that the Spanish train site doesn't work on her Mac but does work on my MS Vista Compaq.
Maybe this will help OFSO plan more trips by rail.

When international rail travel becomes as cheap and as easy to book as the low cost airlines then we'll really be on to something.

[Avman]

:ok: Apologies rothin, for some reason I read your post as meaning 2.5 hrs each way. It's me who needs to learn to read properly :\

[Coquelet]

The train may be more comfortable and fast - but it lacks the pleasure of flying ...

[rothin]

News here about the daily flight from Limoges to Charles de Gaulle being axed in the autumn.

www.lepopulaire.fr - Grand Limoges - limoges roissy c est fini (http://www.lepopulaire.fr/editions_locales/limoges/limoges_roissy_c_est_fini_@CARGNjFdJSsEFhMHCx4=.html)

A coincidence is that SNCF have recently started a TGV service between Brive and Lille that stops at Limoges and Charles de Gaulle.

[eastern wiseguy]

to/from any station in the UK


No...from any station in GB...subtle but important difference......


EW (NI)

[call100]

the pleasure of flying .:confused::confused::confused:

[VAFFPAX]

Definitely the TGV. The new interior design is miles above the old one (hard seats, old Eurostar-esque look). I'd definitely take Le TGV. That's why I don't fly to BRU or CDG anymore. The Eurostar is very suitable for my requirements.

While it is correct that Eurostar does do mainline connection services to most European destinations from many mainline stations from the UK, it is only from mainline stations that either connect into London St Pancras or London Kings Cross. I think London Euston is also covered, but I'm not sure. London Paddington is only 20 minutes by UG and with the Euro Saver you get your UG journey included, compared to a 35 minute journey from Gare du Nord to Gare Montparnasse EXCL your Métro ticket. So why Paddington is not included I don't know - It is still cheaper to take the FGW into Paddington and switch to Eurostar for Gare Bruxelles-Midi than to drive to either Stansted, Luton, or Heathrow and park up, or take the bus, and then fly to BRU and then do the slog into town again.

:-)

S.

[Michael SWS]

The train may be more comfortable and fast - but it lacks the pleasure of flying ...Surely, you've got that completely round the wrong way?

Flying used to be a pleasure; quite exciting, even. These days, even when you're travelling in a premium cabin with a legacy airline, flying is an ordeal. I can only imagine what flying with FR must be like.

Train travel, on the other hand, is a pleasure (except, of course, here in the UK, where the trains are on a par with Ryanair on everything except price).

[Seat62K]

"Michael SWS",

Have you flown with Ryanair or in a legacy airline's premium cabin? Speaking as someone with plenty of BA Club World sectors under my belt (plus a couple in BA First) and loads of Ryanair sectors, I would describe neither as an ordeal. Now, if you were to say that economy longhaul is hellish, then I would agree with you. Even premium economy, where it exists (now there's a rip-off).

[Pax Vobiscum]

OK, I'll bite - why do you consider (long-haul) premium economy a "rip-off", 62K? (Roughly) double the ticket price for (almost) double the space and similar/slightly better service sounds a reasonable deal to me. Compare this to Club with ~10x the price for 3-4x the space + (if you push it) a bottle of bubbly. Remind me again, which is the rip-off?

[Michael SWS]

Have you flown with Ryanair or in a legacy airline's premium cabin? Speaking as someone with plenty of BA Club World sectors under my belt (plus a couple in BA First) and loads of Ryanair sectors, I would describe neither as an ordeal. Now, if you were to say that economy longhaul is hellish, then I would agree with you. Even premium economy, where it exists (now there's a rip-off).The flying experience is not just the part where you sit (or sleep) comfortably on a BA Club World seat being waited on hand and foot. It is the whole miserable airport experience - the queues, the security, the crowds... the whole bloody thing. Nowadays, the queue for the "fast bag drop" can be as long or longer than the normal check-in queue. The BA lounges are frequently full to bursting, a far cry from the way they used to be just a few years ago. No amount of "free" champagne can make up for that.

No-one can possibly say that flying is a pleasure these days. It is a necessary part of getting to where you want or need to be, and something to be endured rather than enjoyed.

[Coquelet]

No-one can possibly say that flying is a pleasure today ?
For a lot of people, flying is still a pleasure, believe me : the atmosphere of an airport, the sight of airplanes, some well known, some strange or unexpected, the pleasure of settling inside your flight, then taxy, take-off, the scenery beneath, the clouds, with any luck a bit of turbulence, the descent, the landing - smooth or not - another airport ... Many still enjoy all that !
As regards Ryanair, I have spent hundreds of hours inside their 737, I feel quite at home there inside, and I still enjoy it - like many others : there actually exists a Ryanair fan club ...
(Ryanair Fanclub! (http://www.ryanairfanclub.com))

[Seat62K]

"Pax Vobiscum",

Show me an airline whose premium economy seat has "(almost) double the space" (measured any way you like: double the seat width, double the seat pitch, double the floor area) and I'll stand corrected.

Did I say that Club World fares were not a rip-off?

[Globaliser]

Show me an airline whose premium economy seat has "(almost) double the space" (measured any way you like: double the seat width, double the seat pitch, double the floor area) and I'll stand corrected.I have done some back-of-the-envelope calculations for BA's WT+, and arrived at a figure of roughly "half as much again" as normal economy.

But I normally end up paying about double the lowest economy fare. I don't myself measure value merely by aircraft real estate, but by the overall experience. One of the big things that I personally value (and I know it's a personal thing) is the small, calm and quiet WT+ cabin, compared to the nervous tension and excitement that pervades the main cabin.

[VAFFPAX]

Compared to Y class seats, PE or equivalent seats are certainly around 25% wider. That does tend to make a difference. The pitch is also around 5 to 10" more, which makes it a lot nicer to sit back and relax without inconveniencing the pax next to or behind you, or be inconvenienced by the pax in front of you.

S.

[call100]

No-one can possibly say that flying is a pleasure today ?
For a lot of people, flying is still a pleasure, believe me : the atmosphere of an airport, the sight of airplanes, some well known, some strange or unexpected, the pleasure of settling inside your flight, then taxy, take-off, the scenery beneath, the clouds, with any luck a bit of turbulence, the descent, the landing - smooth or not - another airport ... Many still enjoy all that !
As regards Ryanair, I have spent hundreds of hours inside their 737, I feel quite at home there inside, and I still enjoy it - like many others : there actually exists a Ryanair fan club
Are they the ones met by men in white coats???:bored: