RNAS Yeovilton - what if?

[Seaking93]

Looking at several recent threads on the forum, I must ask what is the future if any for VL?
SHF at Lyneham(Sea Kings) and Future Lynx cancelled what will remain at VL other than 5 Grobs and 2 Hawks?
Planning application gone in for a new command block so the writing must be on the wall, or am I being silly:confused:

[Green Flash]

How much will they get for it when they flog it and what impact will it have at the next election? That's all that matters nowadays. :sad:

[A and C]

Oh no! another eco-town ?

[wetdreamdriver]

You never know perhaps they will move 703 Sqn in their or even multi engine MFTS! Near the sea and procedural airspace!

[andyy]

Close Valley & move the Hawks to VL - its nearer the ranges for a start??

[MaroonMan4]

Here are few ideas to add to the discussion - all said without any insider knowledge so dont go off on one - just some thoughts (which I am happy to poke if they are really that 'off the wall'!):

Replace one ageing ASW that has been 'cut n shut' to make a troop lifter and replace with a more modern ASW,and 'cut n shut' that into a troop lifter. Try and align ASW Merlin to RAF Merlin and Junglie crew use the same simulator, tactics, RWOETU output and regulatory environment etc.

Doesn't really matter where the aircraft/base is (that is why we get paid Boarding School Allowance/CEA/MQs etc), but probably efficient and effective to co-locate with the RAF Merlins (common OCU, common spares, common engineering practices etc).

Now use Yeovilton for what is left of the Merlin ASW fleet (just enough to cover Maritime commitments) and more importantly FLynx. That should be the 'quid pro quo' for the Fisheads - they get to keep a 'minor' Merlin ASW fleet, but a 'major' Lynx capability. Make 815 and 847 multi-role (both can conduct blue water and littoral ops) and put the Pongos South Side (because they really do smell :) but they are nice and close to SPTA (unlike their current location).

Make Lyneham the SH superbase and Yeovilton the FLynx super base. As to Culdrose - Hawks and Wet Dreams (well their replacement) and more importantly the emerging Joint capability of the Sea King AEW or if it really does have to be cost neutral (dont you just hate that term!), leave the few Hawks at Yeovilton and RAF Nav trg and RN Observer trg combine and leave the Sea King 'node' at Culdrose.

What are we going to do with the Sea Kings, just after the GTi version has been delivered - simple, if they expected the Fisheads to fly it on until 2030, then surely it would be good enough for a future SAR privatisation contract - reduce the cost as the 'winner' doesn't have to resource shiney new aircraft, MoD/H M Government supplies to reduce contract cost.

Sorry Fisheads - not a time to be territorial. It looks as though we are losing Odiham and Benson, you can cough up Culdrose, especially if it means that you get something more capable than the Sea King to bring on Operations! Here is another quid pro quo for you, we'll even throw in the Danish Merlins for you to ensure that you really can do the Amphib stuff and also concurrently help out with Land/JHC tasks - you signed up to bobbing around in boats, you guys are welcome to it and I am sure the Freaks would sacrifice the Danish cabs for the greater good.

Sorry Pinger boys, but dont worry, I am sure that when they convert your Merlins they will ensure that the Radars and Sonars are all stored properly just in case the 'Hunt For Red October' kicks off again and not unlike now when the SH fleet desperately needs bolstering, then in the years to come the Merlin Sqn at Yeovilton can be re-roled by some ex-troop lifters and the capability built back up as RUSI and PJHQ see that threat increasing more than the current 'threat' to world peace.

If we are that broke and the priority is winning the 'war'/campaign in the Stan then sadly if the Treasury really are going to take Defence in general to the wire (and beyond) then this may alleviate some of the pressure on the frontline SH force and the most important thing of all save human life on operations

But, Belvedere (or whatever it is called) really is taking a very long time and a lot of man hours to reach a decision - too much Service politics combined with too much Governmental politics does not bode well for a swift resolution and execution of the plan.

[Front Seater]

Rumour I heard was that 847 was getting the left over AH that we are currently looking to or already have in store! All that previous HMS Ocean work the 656 did not being used has raised a few questions throughout the dark blue and Royal Marine community (especially after Royal really seeing what AH brings to the party out here) - when so many AH are idling in hangars collecting dust and 847 could be losing their Lynx if FLynx falls over it makes sense.

I suppose it is a fair one - if we cannot man or support them, lets put the airframes to good use with an organisation that can. Maybe not fully UOR'd up, but I bet you that 847 would take them anyway, and certainly better than their current Lynx fleet.

[helimarshaller]

Rumour I heard was that 847 was getting the left over AH
Comeback B Flt 3 BAS RM & the REME Support. All is forgiven.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Sorry Pinger boys, but dont worry, I am sure that when they convert your Merlins they will ensure that the Radars and Sonars are all stored properly just in case the 'Hunt For Red October' kicks off again and not unlike now when the SH fleet desperately needs bolstering, then in the years to come the Merlin Sqn at Yeovilton can be re-roled by some ex-troop lifters and the capability built back up as RUSI and PJHQ see that threat increasing more than the current 'threat' to world peace.


You forgot to add, not to worry because it won't take too many generations to reacquire the skills lost through not having the kit to exercise them with.

At this rate, we will be left with just a "World Class" Army and supporting Air component.

[ZH875]

And also forgotten about RAB, the military could not store it, as it costs money to store, so it would be sold very cheaply to MAS.

[spheroid]

I alwasy understood that Yeovilton would alwasy be safe from the bancounters because of the vast funding it gets from NATO. The threat to Yeovilton is not the Lynx or Seakings leaving but should NATO pull the plug then the purse would be empty.

[Seaking93]

I alwasy understood that Yeovilton would alwasy be safe from the bancounters because of the vast funding it gets from NATO. The threat to Yeovilton is not the Lynx or Seakings leaving but should NATO pull the plug then the purse would be empty.


Funding for what?

One NATO unit that occupies a small area?

[Razor61]

I thought the only airfield in the UK to have vast NATO funding was RAF Fairford.
The only unit that comes under NATO at Yeovilton is the NATO Multi Service Electronic Warfare Support Group (MWESG) as far as i know which provides ground and air support for that environment (Falcon 20 pods etc too).

Apart from that, i don't see why NATO would fund RNAS Yeovilton at all.

[hurn]

If Yeovilton were to close what would become of the superb FAA museum there?

[andyy]

The museum is a completely independent entity - no reason for anything to happen to it. I'm not sure that it even gets any funding from the RN at all

[Navaleye]

If JSF gets binned why not base 4 sqns of these there?

http://usera.imagecave.com/scouse/vix31.jpg

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,

What! A fighter without a gun, and one and where the Observer can't see out?

Brilliant...................................

[Tourist]

Maroon Man

"Replace one ageing ASW that has been 'cut n shut' to make a troop lifter and replace with a more modern ASW,and 'cut n shut' that into a troop lifter. Try and align ASW Merlin to RAF Merlin and Junglie crew use the same simulator, tactics, RWOETU output and regulatory environment etc."

Generally agree, though no cut and shut required and sim cannot be shared as cockpit too different. Just give it a DAS, 2 extra wheels and NVG. The Pinging Kit removes easily, the aircrew training is more of an issue.

"Doesn't really matter where the aircraft/base is (that is why we get paid Boarding School Allowance/CEA/MQs etc), but probably efficient and effective to co-locate with the RAF Merlins (common OCU, common spares, common engineering practices etc)."

Disagree. The vast majority of Merlin infastructure is at Culdrose along with the largest number of Merlin. Move the RAF Merlin.

"Now use Yeovilton for what is left of the Merlin ASW fleet (just enough to cover Maritime commitments) and more importantly FLynx. That should be the 'quid pro quo' for the Fisheads - they get to keep a 'minor' Merlin ASW fleet, but a 'major' Lynx capability. Make 815 and 847 multi-role (both can conduct blue water and littoral ops) and put the Pongos South Side (because they really do smell but they are nice and close to SPTA (unlike their current location)."

Don't know where to start with this one. It is not a quid pro quo situation. You have a budget, we have a budget. Just because you cannot balance yours, doesn't mean we have to lose core capability.
815 and 847 is not a realistic dual role by any stretch of the imagination. 847 has no blue water role whatsoever, and litoral is stretching it. It is difficult enough for each type to remain current in all their own areas let alone doubling up. (Unlike 847, the Army don't even attempt to keep any more then a core of QHIs current on all roles, and that doesn't even include mountains/arctic)

"What are we going to do with the Sea Kings, just after the GTi version has been delivered - simple, if they expected the Fisheads to fly it on until 2030, then surely it would be good enough for a future SAR privatisation contract - reduce the cost as the 'winner' doesn't have to resource shiney new aircraft, MoD/H M Government supplies to reduce contract cost."

Oh.
My.
God.
The one thing that would put a stop to any "reducing contract cost" would be specifying Sea Kings.

"Sorry Fisheads - not a time to be territorial. It looks as though we are losing Odiham and Benson, you can cough up Culdrose, especially if it means that you get something more capable than the Sea King to bring on Operations! Here is another quid pro quo for you, we'll even throw in the Danish Merlins for you to ensure that you really can do the Amphib stuff and also concurrently help out with Land/JHC tasks - you signed up to bobbing around in boats, you guys are welcome to it and I am sure the Freaks would sacrifice the Danish cabs for the greater good."

Very much agree that the green Merlins should all come to the RN to replace the Junglie Sea Kings. RN having all Merlin will reduce stores problems, especially when the Merlin bagger arrives which I am certain it will. The RAF should then go and buy a new helicopter they really want, and in suitable numbers.


"the most important thing of all save human life on operations"

If only it were so simple, then we could just come home problem solved. The most important thing is to succesfully carry out the operation. Trying to minimise our casualties is merely a side consideration along with cost. Sad, but thats the real world.

[MaroonMan4]

Tourist,

All balanced and considered response.

I dont agree with all of your points - but between us we have offered 2 )of many) Courses Of Action and options to our lords and masters.....

Now will they stop conducting paralysis by analaysis and making a bl00dy decision, there are lives at stake by their faffing.

If these 2 posts, with 2 differing options are 'missing the big picture' then please will someone tell us what it is! By all means give the Fisheads the Merlins (the logistics/single aircraft fleet should embrace that concept) and give us more CH47 (old HC3s in bound, but lets look at the F (fatties) and join the lengthening queue for that very capable aircraft.

Stop this indecisiveness and look at capability (not only for this war, but also tomorrows war) and lets have some leadership and direction rather than some random posting on this web site.

Once again Tourist, I dont agree with all that you say, but your argument and options is just are as valid as mine.

[Tourist]

"Stop this indecisiveness and look at capability (not only for this war, but also tomorrows war) and lets have some leadership and direction rather than some random posting on this web site."

Amen

[Double Zero]

As I've mentioned before on the Seajet thread, buy / convert a good squadron's worth of Harrier 2+ for the rather long 'stop-gap' period before F-35, give them to the FAA & Yeovilton and a lot of ills are cured at once...

[pr00ne]

Double Zero,

Two of your statements are in direct conflict.

"A good squadrons worth"

and

"Give them to the FAA"

Seeing as the "FAA" cannot at the moment even man the small JFH squadrons how on earth would they man this lot?

Oh, and why?????????????????????????????????????

Oh yes, that huge air threat that is out there.........................................

[Tourist]

"Oh yes, that huge air threat that is out there......................................... "

Thats right proone, the time to decide you need fleet air defence is after the threat materialises.:hmm:

[pr00ne]

Tourist,

Or when the F-35 materialises.

Is an air threat REALLY even a remote possibility before then? If so where and from whom?

[Tourist]

Proone

In 1980 I bet that you could have asked a thousand military strategists to write down their top ten "next war" scenarios and not one would mention Argentina or the Falklands. Ditto Afghanistan before 9/11.

Or are you cleverer than the rest of us?
Where and when do you think the next conflict will be?

[pr00ne]

Tourist,

Right, let's base our military expenditure on a once in a generation one off. If the Foreign Office had been doing their job THEY would have seen it coming....

9/11, Air to Air threat to the fleet? Sea Vixens or AMRAAM armed Harrier 2 would have helped how exactly?

[Double Zero]

Proone,

If the FAA 'can't man a small squadron of JFH' it will be because the R.A.F. have had their way and p'd off the Navy aircrew.

As to why give AMRAAM capable A/D Harriers to the FAA, that's blindingly obvious and others above have already answered it.

The whole JFH thing is history repeating itself, the same thing happened just before WW2, when the FAA was quickly re-established & escaped R.A.F. Control.

As for perceived threats, could be anything, as others have pointed out; from a surprise war, large or 'small' to having to take out an airliner being used as a cruise missile - which do you prefer, 1 mile range & preferably daylight, or 40 miles + in any weather, VERY accurately ?

BTW I am not ex-Navy, just used to work with them - and the R.A.F. + foreign services - and I know a good asset wasted by internal politics when I see it.

[Occasional Aviator]

Could we please discuss the future of Yeovilton? There are plenty of other threads discussing how the machiavellian and all-powerful RAF spends all its time plotting how to destroy or take over all air capabilities held by the other services and how all the ills of the FAA are due to the RAF.

Or, perhaps we should be moving towards some joint capabilities which actually deliver operational effect? Oh my mistake, I'm in the RAF, therefore I must have an ulterior motive....

[The Helpful Stacker]

Ah, yet another thread descends into WAFU paranoia.

Poor little Senior Service being plotted against by those nasty crabs again?:rolleyes:

[Tourist]

This entire thread is put forward on the premise that Yeovilton is under threat.
I, for one, have not heard these rumours at all. Has anyone other than the thread starter actually got any basis for this theory?

I would say that Yeovilton and Culdrose are about as safe as any airbase in the country due to the sheer number of units based at each and the prohibitive cost of moving them all.

[spheroid]

Thats very true shipmate BUT Yeovilton is safe purely because it has the CHF and LHF based there. This thread is discussing the "what-ifs".....

What if Future Lynx is (probably) cancelled and What if the Junglies (possibly) go to Odiham....then what for Yeovilton?

[Tourist]

Three Sqns of Sea Kings, 847, Two Sqns of Old Lynx, including the largest sqn in the British Military, which will drag on for a long time if FLynx gets the chop, Naval Grading, NFSF(FW), Heron Flight.....oh... bugger, The Hawks, Historic Flight, the NATO boys.

You might as well ask about any airbase.
ie, what would happen to Cranwell if IOT got moved along with 45 Sqn etc


There is no money for Belvedere whatsoever.

[Seaking93]

My original question was 'What if' and I have heard no rumours what so ever other than those already posted here on this forum over the last few months, all I have done is pose the question of what if 2 of the threads discussed here actually happen.
As for the museum at Yeovilton it would continue as a charitable trust as it does now, yes it does recieve a Grant in Aid from the Navy to help cover some of the costs of its operation, however the majority of the funding comes from its own efforts.
Tourist, sadly one less unit come the end of September don't forget

[Double Zero]

Helpfull Stacker,

As I pointed out I'm not ex-services of any flavour, just used to work with you all on Harrier / Hawk projects in my own small way.

I have no bias, in fact I tend to find by experience that senior Naval officers are even worse knobs than senior RAF ones ( quite an achievement ) but I do know, having been very directly involved with the Sea Harrier 1 ( inc Falklands mod's at this safe end,) Sea Harrier FRS then FA2 - we were staggered by the Blue Vixen/ Amraam's potency - and RAF GR5 & 7 + a special 1161 engine time to height trials record winner ( in class, ZD402 with Heinz Frick ) .

The fleet, such as it is, and representing our 'force projecton' needs air defence - as the PROJECTED ISD for the F-35 is 2018, what will it really be ?!

So that's why I suggest some Harrier 2+'s ASAP ... while one may think we are in a period of peace right now, so did countless others, including the U.S. at Pearl Harbour.

As for funding for such a 'good squadron's worth' well I see the government have magic'd up ANOTHER £3billion for 'Northern Rock' virtually overnight, as we are supposed to believe; so as the total so far for the 2 CVF's is supposed to be £4 billion, don't tell me we can't afford a bunch of Harrier 2+'s, which after all share a great deal of commonality with the GR9 - I think I should know, as I photographed both aircraft in detail for and with designers & engineers, inside & out.

[Occasional Aviator]

Double Zero,

despite my comments about thread drift I will respond. You have touted 'We need Harrier 2+ NOW" on other threads, and I will not recycle the arguments over whether it's a realistic option. What i would like to get into perspective is the "...need... now".

Bearing in mind that it is current UK MOD policy to take risk against AD,

We need a CAS aircraft that can work closer-in than GR7/9 and is faster than AH now.
We need some sort of decent SHORAD for land-based units now.
We need better vehicle protection against IEDs now.
We need a SEAD capability now.
We need a CSAR/JPR capability now.
We need more rotary lift now.
We need more strat lift now
We need more AAR now.
We need a better ISTAR grid now.
We need a robust space assurance capability now.
We need an ABM capability now.
We need something better than JPA now.
We need better care for our crippled veterans now.
We need a bigger RLC now.
We need air-portable armoured vehicles now.
We need a robust recognised opertional picture distributed to all units in the JOA now.
We need better combat ID now.
etc

Care to comment where Harrier 2+ comes in the list and whose funding you'd cut to get it? Clearly you see a need for enhanced air defence with an A/G capability so I don't expect you'll want to cut Typhoon.

You'll also note that I have not 'solutionised' and said that we need any particular type - that sort of thing usually leads to big support problems.

Back to the Thread

I had four very happy years at Yeovilton, including time in the old mess, and I'd be very sorry to see it go. It puts me in mind of my mate who lived in Dorset, when Portland closed. Every Thursday morning he would get a stream of Lynx, flying over his house on their way to the channel (via Portland) and back every afternoon. If we moved all the Merlin to Culdrose, would they use Yeovilton as a waypoint on their daily runs to Salisbury Plain, STANTA, SENTA etc (along with the grey Merlin that go over my house every Thursday morning etc). How about making Yoevilton the Merlin superbase?

[Double Zero]

Occasional Aviator,

Despite what I admit appearances may be, I am not rabid pro-Harrier2+ & AMRAAM to the exclusion of all else; just a few choices would be better vehicles, better ID, more rotary, etc as a higher priority 'right now'.

However, we are in a pretty crazy situation where our carriers have no A/D and even if all goes to plan - exactly how often does that happen ? - won't have until at least 2018.

As the FAA are / were the fighter Harrier specialists, and somehow to me seem logical to use at sea, I'd suggest having Harrier 2+ in FAA hands at Yeovilton.

One consideration is that Somerset is desperately short of jobs, so any by-product in that regard would be another good thing.

As for funding, I actually agree with all of your list as higher priorities, the snag with AMRAAM Harriers is we are rapidly losing the skilled people experienced with it.

Whether we - sensibly - buy used 2+ from the USMC, or for political purposes convert some GR9's ( and are ALL Harrier 2 airframes to GR9 standard yet ??? - I very much doubt it ) as I say, if 'we' can bail out Northern Rock for nearly the price of the 2 CVF's AGAIN, the money's there...

If the Navy component of JFH has dwindled to such an extent that they " can't man a little JFH Squadron " then internal politics have won, and the country has lost a great asset - which would indicate that JFH does not work, so let the Navy have their aircraft & pilots - in the past both services happily did exchange tours, which seem to be a better answer.

Yeovilton is ideally placed in several ways, as in free-er airspace, cheaper accomodation, better placed to deploy to carriers, and as I say the area needs a financial boost, if thinking of other things than strictly military.

As for the requirement for a CIS aircraft, that was a proposal from Kingston design office just before they were shut down by the more powerful ( and infinitely more clueless & less interested in our forces needs ) northern section of BAe - I was literally just about to mention it, SABA - Small Agile Battlefield Aircraft - on the 'history & nostalgia' thread.

[Occasional Aviator]

Fair enough. One could make a similar case for marinised Rafale, and since the F3 force are the specialists in AD, and their bases are not exactly in prosperous parts of the country, they should fly it.

I don't really care which service operates the aircraft, as long as they're used effectively and efficiently.

I suppose it comes down to whether you view the carrier as being there to project air power, or the embarked AD aviation as organic weapons for the carrier. Because of my background, I tend to consider the former as a more efficient use of our scarce fast jets, but we can agree to differ. Those that are actually doing the business in JFH seem to think it works as well as can be expected, so I don't think it's failed - regardless of how big or small the RN slice of the pie is.

Anyway, anyone care to comment on my idea for Yeovilton as the Merlin hub? It would certainly make it easier to keep the design authority (for the Mk3, at least) in touch with what's going on....

[MaroonMan4]

OA,

Essentially I am in total agreement with you and for some sad reason have given it some thought over night :hmm:. It appears to be that the we have to ensure that we are changing the 'status quo' for a reason - to deliver more combat effect, while simultaneously satisfying the treasury that we are seen to be delivering real cost reductions for PR 08 and even into PR09.

The other factor for consideration is that 'we' (light blue) have managed to expand our SH assets with the procurement of the Danish Merlin and also the funding to resolve the CH47 HC3 fiasco. However, our dark blue Junglie capability is being viewed akin to the Czech Hip in Bosnia as the last choice by the customer, with its crews shouldering the 'risk' of operating a capability that is both old and operationally tired from many years service.

Therefore in simplistic terms, the capability enhancement can be achieved at the stroke of COMD JHC's pen by re-roling 78 Sqn RAF into a CH47 capability to operate the 'new' CH47s when they come off the line and re-roling the Junglie fleet with a long overdue Merlin SH capability.

But the use of Yeovilton as purely a Merlin hub (as Wattisham is for the AH) actually misses the true potential for also making it a Lynx hub as well. As already identified on this thread, even if FLynx does 'fall over' then both the Blue and Green Lynx capability will be with us for a number of years. Remember that the AAC's Lynx Regiment in Dishforth is currently on the look out for a new home and is reviewing its future options. Before discussion on a Merlin hub, the 'quick win' is a Lynx hub south side at Yeovilton. This includes a common conversion unit for both RN, RM and AAC Lynx pilots. In the current world of PFIs and PPPs the pure 'sticks and poles, stop and starts' could be contractualised. The true 'training to fight' the capability could be conducted by individual role related OCUs, manned more towards QHTIs and HWIs. For the RN Lynx/FLynx this OCU would also cater for RN Observer trg. With one logisitics node the logisiticians would surely be in agreement?

The cost is in the movement and integration of simulators (and with FLynx this would have to be done anyway) and also although south side is under utilised, it could not fit a whole Pongo regiment and 3 RN Lynx Sqns. Ownership of 847 could go on for centuries, but if a true Tailored Air Group is really going to operate in the Littoral, then with CHF it should remain (unless you are going to resource the training of all the Pongos to operate from decks in the Amphib role as well - which I am sure they will just love :rolleyes: . Therefore new build hangarage and office space would be required where the Historic Flight/Fire Practice area is.

But before people start rolling their eyes at new build being mentioned in the first few paragraphs - that is the only new build I believe that Yeovilton requires to make it both the Lynx/FLynx and Merlin hub.

Because, now that the 'quick win' has been achieved we can consider your suggestion OA of Yeovilton being the Merlin hub. With 815, 702 and 847 now located south side under this plan, the vacant office space and hangarage can be used for RN grey Merlins from Culdrose. The ex 78 Sqn Merlins combined with the Danish Merlins are located in the current 845/846 hangars.

Again, the real cost saving is in a combined Merlin conversion unit (potentially located in the 848 hangar/office space) that only conducts basic conversion to type training across both Merlin types. Again a fleet specific OCU conducts the OJT and role related tasks (possibly a non deployable OCU Flt that conducts UK tasking and concurrently trains 'new joiners'). Again, if cost is a real issue then this type of 'sticks and poles' conversion training can be contractualised. The 'rest tour' for the front liners is in effect the OCU (because it is non-deployable) and focuses their skill sets on relevant and recent training of TTPs etc from their recent deployed experience.

There appears no cost in this - except the AVTUR to fly the Merlins from Culdrose and Benson to Yeovilton. Not strictly true. Assuming that course design and establishment of a Merlin logisitics node at Yeovilton is relatively low cost, then again it is the Merlin simulators that potentially will make JHC/Treasury baulk. With the green Merlin there is a case to argue to leave it where it is and accept the associated T&S costs. CAE/Serco provide a pretty good 'bang for buck' by having all 3 aircraft types under one roof (4 if the Pongos sorted out the 'plug and play' capability of the AH FDS). Not only does the MSHAFT facility provide conversion trg, but also the likes of Desert Trolley and pre-TLT training that deliver limited collective and combined training. The Junglies were happy to trek all the way to Culdrose for their Sea King tech and simulator trg, Benson must be closer.

The cost with the Merlin hub will be in the re-location of the pinging simulator. Real Estate should not be a problem, as even if there is no room on the airfield, Little Yeovilton across the road has spare capacity.

As to the Hawks and bug smashers - off down to Culdrose to join the SAR Flt (which will soon be privatised anyway) and the Wet Dreams (that will probably be combined with RAF Navigator/RN Observer trg in the future).

The other (often forgotten about) 'cost' is the increase in MQs. Well the local area survived with Lynx, Sea King, Hawks, and 3 Sqns of Harriers - so it is obviously feasible. With Somerset/Yeovil being one of the lowest income areas in the country (why do you think Wastelands are still there and not in Mumbai!) then the local council will probably bend over backwards to assist (planning permission etc) as its local commerce and industry will undoubtedly benefit.

As to 'congestion' in the local airspace - Yeovilton coped very well with SH, Lynx and Fast Jets in its previous life, it should be able to cope with a Lynx/Merlin hub. The beauty of Yeovilton (unlike Benson and Odiham if truth be known) is that the airspace is relatively simple (and yet Bristol and Exeter provide exposure to Procedural IF) and SPTA for the Pongos is right on the door step heading East, and the Moors is to the West for the Junglies and RM. Admittedly, as with Portland, the grey Lynx and Merlin community will have to endure a 25 minute transit to the sea, but hopefully can be filled with interesting training activities in transit ;)

I am with you OA - is this the kind of thoughts you were looking for?

[spheroid]

But the use of Yeovilton as purely a Merlin hub (as Wattisham is for the AH) actually misses the true potential for also making it a Lynx hub as well. As already identified on this thread, even if FLynx does 'fall over' then both the Blue and Green Lynx capability will be with us for a number of years. Remember that the AAC's Lynx Regiment in Dishforth is currently on the look out for a new home and is reviewing its future options. Before discussion on a Merlin hub, the 'quick win' is a Lynx hub south side at Yeovilton. This includes a common conversion unit for both RN, RM and AAC Lynx pilots. In the current world of PFIs and PPPs the pure 'sticks and poles, stop and starts' could be contractualised. The true 'training to fight' the capability could be conducted by individual role related OCUs, manned more towards QHTIs and HWIs. For the RN Lynx/FLynx this OCU would also cater for RN Observer trg. With one logisitics node the logisiticians would surely be in agreement

Apart from the location that is a superb idea. Keep the Lynx on the north side but combine AAC and RN traiing....brilliant

[minigundiplomat]

Why do we need 28 Sqn for a handful of extra frames? The sqn's contain only aircrew at Odiham these days, and whilst it may be an aspiration to increase the crews, it's proving nigh on impossible.

And does this mean you are leaving 78 Sqn to operate the original 22 Merlins, plus the Danish sticking plasters?

In which world does this make sense? Keep the freaks on the Merlin fleet.

Apart fom that, you can shoehorn whatever you wish into Yeovilton. Realistically, I agree that co-locating the Merlins makes sense, but I think moving assets around is something JHC would like to do, but can't.

JHC is all about short-term savings, and always has been. Projects like Belvedere offer long-term rationalisation, but short-term investment. Wrong aspect of the JHC bell curve.

Odiham is a case in point. JHC desperately want to close the station and Belvedere is only the lastest in a long line of studies posing the same question from different angles. It always involves money, and so the answer is always the same.

If you ask me, right or wrong, the treasury views the 2 carriers and JSF as the RN's investment for quite some time.

Flynx may involve the RN on the back of an Army procurement, but CH47, Apache etc are never going to happen.

[Double Zero]

I happen to agree with O A's idea of a Merlin / hopefully Future Lynx hub ( as well as my suggestion for FAA Amraam Harriers ) but this all might be too bleeding obvious & simple to ever come about...

[MaroonMan4]

Mini Gun,

Apologies, for any confusion - while I was typing my post I suddenly became aware that I was using specific Sqn names on a public forum and was trying to create detail, without compromising anything....

But then a susbsequent Google and Wikipedia revealed that I was being a tw@t as all military Sqn history, locations and details are freely availible on the web.

But you got my drift - all of the Merlins to Yeovilton, including all of 'our' green airframes. Free up the current Merlin crews to expand our CH47 capability (Odiham or Lynham - as long is it is one place for logistics). Either give the Fisheads our green Merlins to co-locate with their grey Merlins or really 'press to test' and have a truly Joint green Merlin capability at Yeovilton (but as we all aware we in the light blue are finding it difficult to man our current commitments, let alone extra Merlins and CH47 over the next few years). Not every wants to spend time time bobbing around in a boat.

Although I am fiercely proud of the RAF and all that we do, I sadly recognise that there is nothing that we can do to stop the way that the Treasury is forcing us to commit to economy of scale/force. I have also grown up and recognise that as long as the job gets done do the soldiers on the ground really care who delivers the capability? We can banter each other all day, and of course the Chinnie operator contains the most capable aircrew in the H M Forces;) , but essentially regardless of which uniform we wear we are all to the same standard and all capable of delivering what the ground forces want.

To me it has nothing to do with Belvedere or inter Service politics, it has all to do with capability, getting the job done and saving lives (either through manoeuvre/air mobility or MERTs) - and to me the current Sea King fleet is long over due replacing.

If JHC cannot see that if it really is Joint, and if really is front line focused, then it can 'kill two birds with one stone', prepare the way for the manning of new airframes (Danish Merlins/CH47 HC3 (-)), replace an ageing and low capability airframe (Sea King), and also satisfy the Treasury/IPTs with single logistics/maintenance nodes (Merlin & Lynx at Yeovilton).

We all know it is going to happen at some stage in the future and in some form Belvedere or Treasury cuts will force the estate and airframe rationalisiation hand. Personally, we either seize the opportunity and shape it to deliver what we want or we kick and squirm in our single service ivory towers and slowly and painfully let the bean counters take more.

We have an opportunity to head the civil servants and bean counters off at the pass and also improve on what we deliver frontline, and that surely must be what we are about.

[minigundiplomat]

Agreed. But within JHC it still comes down to short-term savings, not short term investment.

MGD