Big BA pulling out of Scotland for good? PART 2

[keepitlit]

I dont know why this thread was closed!

BA planned to pull this route for a few years but when bmi started they stayed on it.

I am lead to believe bmi are not going to have any reductions on these routes, but if the demand goes up when wild willies axe falls may will find that they will increase where required.
There is some slack built in the system over winter period so they may well see this as an opportunity and grab it.

[HZ123]

You are correct and flights can certainly be added if required. What is relevant is that although BA was the traditional server of Scotland by default, in the last 10 years the state of play has changed radically with large numbers of flights into / out of the Scots airports and lots less monies for all involved. Whatever way we look at growth, logic must surely lead to far better train services in the future city to city centre, because the LHR experience by air still is a trip time city to city of 4-5 hrs.

[BAladdy]

EDI is one of BA's top performing routes. So a total withdrawl is very unlikely as BA would not like to hand these very lucrative pax over to BD and the Star Alliance.

[Skipness One Echo]

Part One was pulled because it was a load of old ****.

BA were happy to fly ABZ-LHR as it feeds the long haul routes from London. BMI only have a fraction of the LHR passengers as they fly the ERJ145 as a general slot holder for the London end.
BA's LGW-ABZ was pulled because the oil traffic route to Houston moved to Heathrow. Hence they now feed more high yield oil traffic through Terminal 5.

There are still a good few connections each day and a competitor on the route, with the option of BE to LGW or EZY to LTN. Get some perspective, you'd think they'd rebuilt Hadrians Wall the way some were throwing toys from the pram!

BA is a profit making company with shareholders and facing a bloody tough time. It's not a state concern and this isn't 1979. ( well actually (!) )

Goodness me, so long as BMI are still there, there's little problem surely.

[nebpor]

I've sat on quite a few absolutely dead late 757s betwee Glasgow->Heathrow in the evenings recently, as well as a lot of very quiet LCY flights as well - no wonder.

[WHBM]

When I was doing a lot of LHR-ABZ last year on BMI when they were still using A320s some of the woefully thin loads, even at classic business times, were surprising. The majority of my flights then would have fitted into an Embraer RJ no problem.

If the general London to Aberdeen market were so good then Easyjet would have got beyond the two a day to Luton and nothing to Gatwick they currently manage.

For those who believe that train is the way, I find that for all the business people I meet in Aberdeen or travel there with, Heathrow, Gatwick or Luton are infinitely more convenient at the London end for them than Kings Cross. It's a myth that the majority of travellers want to go to the heart of major metropolitan areas any longer - not that Kings Cross is particularly in the heart of things, unless you're going there for the hookers in the semi-derelict houses around the station.

[Railgun]

IIRC the 757 do not go into T5 so it cannot have been that recently....

[AirLCY]

EDI and GLA LON market is declining v last year, and BA increase LCY v last winter to 9, v last year 8

[nebpor]

Railgun: fair point - my frame of reference is since about November 2007 ... I've been weekly commuting to London since then, generally on the LCY route ....

[DAVYDAY]

We heard 3 years ago that we would pull from LGW to LHR
the main reason Slots. and staffing costs in both stations

Take the Scottish slots into LHR and hey presto!
They won`t come back.

BA have no intention of returning canx flights.

Merge our 2 London airports into 1.
reduce costs - steal sorry use the Scottish slots.

Job done!
:ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

BA have no intention of returning canx flights.

Merge our 2 London airports into 1.
reduce costs - steal sorry use the Scottish slots.

Salt for the chip on your shoulder? Nasty company, stealing Scottish slots, grinding Caledonia into the dirt. We must summon the Cooncil and demand they be nationalised henceforth !
Dude BA have slots to spare at Gatwick and none at Heathrow ! If anything they'd be going the other way....

( btw I'm Scottish )

[PC767]

With the availability of more direct point to point flights or flights to hubs other than LHR from airports other than London ones I would suggest that transfer traffic has reduced. BA's problem is that it believes it can shuffle everyone through LHR when in reality and given a choice folks north of Watford prefer regional airports.

[silverstreak]

Does anyone really think that adding LCY frequencies from Scotland to LCY will in fact:

A Happen
B Work
C Operate as planned

Answer: No, Never, NADA, Not a snowballs chance in hell etc etc...

BACityFlyer CANNOT operate the existing schedule as it stands, and thats BEFORE the 'NEW' additions...

Reasons we all know and love - NOT...

Aircraft reliability - Disgusting and downright pathetic for an airline such as BA to put their name, and product into. Its a shambles and an everyday occurance. Last week, 7 aircraft out of 12 were tech (on the one afternoon) and that was on a good day!

Crewing - The crew are working up to their limits and then some. Positioning and out of hours causes nightmares on a daily basis. For example, a crew or three are booked to position to LCY but the flight gets cancelled due tech acft... Knocks out the entire program from LCY and the rest of the network.

BACF Management - Maybe not all their fault, BUT BA should hang their heads in shame for letting this disaster carry on. The passengers are complaining daily and NOTHING is being done. Passengers going over to CityJet - FACT.

BACF OPS - Again, maybe not all their fault, BUT with one ops person on duty normally, its a major ask for them to sort out the nightmare that begins to unfold - even if only 1 or 2 acft go tech.

Handling Agents - They are left to pick up the pieces (whatever airport they are at) and deal with raging passengers. Options are limited and authorisation to move pax from BACF to BA Mainline is required before anyone can be re-routed.

It really is a joke and crews admit they dont know what to expect when they come in to work... They could end up ANYWHERE with no warning...

Basically, BA are ignoring the problems at BACF, and are handing pax to rivals willingly on a daily basis. LCY routes from Scotland ARE a money maker due to the business pax using the route.

Until the acft are changed, BACF will suffer and so will the pax. The crews are doing their best, sticking with a very unreliable aircraft. The handling agents are doing their best to accommodate the pax. The pax are realising that its a dead-horse and now using alternatives...

Wake up BA management or it will be TOO LATE! Time is already running out for your image...

[dantheflyboy]

ba cityflyer handing over passengers to cityjet. God good luck to them, cos if they think its bad with ba cityflyer wait til they experience cityjet.

[WHBM]

Does anyone really think that adding LCY frequencies from Scotland to LCY will in fact:

A Happen
No. Because the fact is that London City is full. There are new stands but the runway is at 100% capacity at peak times. No new slots are available, and holding/vectoring inbound has climbed towards Heathrow amounts.

And as years of experience have shown, if you don't operate a route IN to London City between 0800-0900, and OUT between 1730-1900, you never get anywhere with it. Many operators and routes have proved this. You can have multiple flights on a route, but if you can't offer anything at those peak times it just doesn't work commercially.

[TURIN]

Aircraft reliability - Disgusting and downright pathetic for an airline such as BA to put their name, and product into. Its a shambles and an everyday occurance. Last week, 7 aircraft out of 12 were tech (on the one afternoon) and that was on a good day!

BA have had internal staff vacancies for LAEs and Technicians at LCY for ages now. No one will touch it. Can't imagine why. :rolleyes:

[AirLCY]

The extra LCY EDI's are already on sale for Sep onwards? 0810 dep from EDI and 1920 from LCY which were not in last winters timetable. There's an extra middle of the day flight in Sep / Oct also.

Does seem that BA are having a lot of tech problems. BA still way ahead of AF numbers in CAA stats on EDI route

[Skipness One Echo]

I know they can be less than punctual but I don't recognise the shambles described by sliverstreak. They are flying the Cityflyer Express RJ100s, one careful owner and all, and whereas the RJ is never brilliant, it's not as bad as you describe. In reality, Air France / CityJet are having issues with their RJ85s as they were parked up for ages.

[keepitlit]

And the plot thickens



ABTN.co.uk - First for business travel news and independent advice on business travel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sun 3rd August 2008
Comment: Where now BMI?

The remorseless process of consolidation by European airlines continues. The proposed union of British Airways and Iberia follows hard on the heels of the Lufthansa takeover of what had been Swissair, plus the one-sided merger of Air France and KLM. Last Tuesday Madrid was chosen for the announcement, a curious option of both venue and date bearing in mind BA’s quarterly results were planned for publishing only four days later. In fact British Airways financials could have been far grimmer bearing in mind, as CEO Willie Walsh put it, “We are in the worst trading environment the industry has ever faced”.

Should the BA/IB relationship go ahead one must ask where does this leave bmi, the former British Midland Airways? Bmi holds around 14% of the slots at Heathrow, BA’s core hub and the world’s busiest international airport.

Sir Michael Bishop is the chairman and majority shareholder of bmi. For over a decade he fought for “Open Skies” on the North Atlantic and eventually won. He was expected to leap into the air earlier this year with a multitude of routes claiming victory in one of the longest running air transport disputes in history.

Not so the canny Sir Michael. With the takeover and consolidation of the former BMED (a BA franchise operated by British Mediterranean) in full swing, a lack of the right aircraft at the right price, and no US partner available in New York, his policy was clearly wait and see. It is proving right. A London – New York gamble at this stage might have been a route too far.

The new bilateral has coincided with an unprecedented rise in oil prices. Three small transatlantic business class only airlines have gone. Others too. Carriers are chopping routes with a venom. BA has announced significant cutbacks.

Where does all this leave bmi and how does all this fit in with the proposed merger? Sir Michael is now 66 and has been with the airline since 1963. The airline is owned 50% plus one share by Bishop and his colleagues, with Lufthansa holding 30% and SAS the balance of 20%. SAS been quoted as putting up its stake for sale but it would require “due diligence” and bmi says that to date no such permission has been requested.

As far as bmi is concerned does Sir Michael remain as the part time and very influential chairman and become essentially non-executive, or does he sell his interest to others? Will BA/IB influence him? British Airways could buy the carrier, and take its interest at Heathrow to over 50%, still very much in line with the slot distribution at Paris Charles de Gaulle (Air France) and Frankfurt/Munich (Lufthansa).

The merged AF/KLM has worked well, but Paris dictates. The joining of British Airways and Iberia is something else. On the face of it one can see an ideal situation. The coming together of two empires. BA is a major force on the North Atlantic, Africa and the Middle and Far East. Iberia dominates the South American connections. Both operate essentially non-competing business routes in Europe, and are individually members of the Oneworld alliance.

But you also have to ask the question “what’s in it for BA?” Surely the airline must have plans to strengthen its once mighty South American route network and persuade European-bound passengers to hub direct via Heathrow rather than Madrid and visa versa. The benefits for Iberia are obvious. A partnership with a bigger, stronger and more commercially successful airline feeding traffic into and out of its key location.

But it also means the combining of two cultures, and this is the rub. British Airways is no longer the aggressive, some would say superior airline, of yesteryear. Under Willie Walsh it is a low key operation fighting in a different world. Yes it does have flair and imagination, the aforementioned Open Skies service up and running and London City – New York proposed, but somehow it does not get the message across. Iberia is loss making with traditions somewhat different. However the two airlines have had a relationship for over a decade.

Mr Walsh, formerly with Aer Lingus, was a controversial choice as CEO in May 2005. In very difficult times he has had some success with BA, ruthlessly dumping executives accused of fare pricing irregularities, and likewise admitting failure by axing those involved with the T5 fiasco. The pension fund has been sorted out and the airline’s relationship with the pilot union seems tenable. BAA (Ferrovial of Spain), owners of T5, appear to have got off lightly regarding criticism from their client BA, but did Walsh have one eye on the future and Spanish relationships?

Willie Walsh’s opposite number at Iberia, Fernando Conte, is also the chairman of the airline. He is a multi-lingual Mexican, noted for his hands-on style. An engineer by training he has been a board member of Iberia since 2001 and CEO from 2003. Does he have further aspirations? Wednesday 3rd December sees Mr Conte due to speak to the Aviation Club in London. It could be interesting.

What happens now? The combined BA/IB could work and would afford considerable savings on the bottom line. However the Spanish takeover of BAA has in many people’s eyes been a failure with plenty of questions unanswered.

A strong and healthy British Airways is essential for the future of the United Kingdom. No matter whatever others might say it is Britain’s flag carrier. Does the country want to risk overseas control?

British Airways has reached a crossroads and Sir Michael has come a long way since joining the fledgling British Midland as a 21-year old trainee. Could it be that he completes an illustrious career not only as chairman of bmi, but also as leader of Europe’s largest airline? It would be one last challenge worthy of the man. And a goal worth achieving.