F/O at 18-20 HOW????????

[Ell85]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading a few of your threads and have read a number of mentions on people who know people who are or are F/O's on airliners at the super young age of 18-20 my question is HOW :confused:???? That is incredible!!!

I am a little older... 23 and just about to finish my commercial training and I am stunned and so confused as to how you could possible get on the airlines so quickly. I mean at 19 you can only have held a Commercial License for 1 year. I have been doing all this study with the view of doing years of hard slog working in remote Australia and overseas to get up enough hours to even be considered for a Regional let alone a full blown airline company. HOW HOW HOW???

Is it just luck? Is it just getting the right first job that allows you to build the experience fast? Is it forking out $$$$$$$ to pay for your ratings even if your not flying that type of aircraft? I must seem so naieve but honestly I've been to busy cramming to think of anything past that final flight test!!

[F/O UFO]

I think most of the young people have finished their A-levels and gotten a place on an integrated course. 14 months ab-initio and you're done with an fATPL!

[cfwake]

Ell - the UK is somewhat unique in that while in most other countries of the world there is almost the impression that you don't deserve to fly an airliner until you've done 8 or 10 years hard labour flying single engines or light twins in the remote back of beyond for 12 grand a year, we are fortunate enough that many airlines here, particularly when the industry is healthy (unlike at the moment...but watch this space) are willing to take people straight out of their flying school and put them into the right hand seat.

I went to the US for my training and while I was there flew a Southwest flight and they were amazed that we had the chance to go straight onto an airliners, without the mandatory backwater work first - not that there is anything wrong with it (gives you a hell of a lot of stories), but it is very nice to know that there is always the chance of going straight onto the line!

[IrishJetdriver]

Money, hard work, luck followed most likely by more money. Family financial support will be right in there.

The UK market is also very different to Australia. As you say, you will need to work your way up to the airlines, here you can get in with 300hrs straight on to a jet (i.e. 737) although I suspect that those days are numbered for the time being. Can also be a jet captain with only around 3-3500hrs if you're lucky and good enough.

If you have the right for an EU passport, then keep an eye on things in Europe and maybe try your luck some time. Big step.

[Adios]

Ell85,

Several UK airlines had fully sponsored cadet programmes on JAR-FCL Integrated courses until the attacks of 11 September 2001 put the industry into a slump. At that time, the likes BA, BMI, Aer Lingus and others canceled the courses for many cadets and sent them home. The age limit was usually 18-27 or so. In fact, I'm pretty sure that John Monks, BAs current recruiter was 19 when he finished training and BA CEO Willie Walsh was 17 when he started training.

As the UK industry began a slow recovery from 9/11, the recruiters discovered there were plenty of students already on integrated courses paying for their own training. As a result, they have not yet experienced enough difficulty recruiting new FOs to see the need to restart funded cadet programmes. Since they have many years experience with suitably mature and well trained 18 and 19 year olds doing the job well, there's been no increase in the age requirements in these post sponsorship days. furthermore, on 1st October 2006, anti-ageist legislation went into effect in the UK, though this is probably more meaningful to older wannabes.

[Maude Charlee]

Personally I think it is a bit of a shame that guys choose to head straight for an airline job at such a young age. Imagine how thoroughly jaded you'll be after 40 years of such flying, with no new experiences left to sample no matter how much you enjoy it all to start with.

Whilst I also don't agree with the route forced upon some of our colonial cousins that time must be served elsewhere before being allowed to join a major airline, it does seem to me that the guys who come into airline flying from other aviation avenues (GA, corporate, ex-mil etc etc), have had a great deal more fun and enjoyment than those who will never know anything else.

It's a fabulous and varied world out there, don't be in such a hurry to limit yourself to just one small part of it. :ok:

[wheelie my boeing]

Of course Maude, if you want to get started on your career and get as high up in a company as possible then it can be far better to start from an early age... Just think, if John Monks (BA Head of flight deck recruitment) had not finished his training at 19 he quite possible would not be in his current position now. Another major plus is that there is so much more you can get involved in within aviation once you have been at a company for a few years (instructing, recruiting, ops etc), so to say that you won't have as much fun, in my opinion, is not entirely true. Sure in many cases that is possible, but many pilots do other things on the side within the company and had they not joined at a young age they potentially would not be in the position to do so.

[Maude Charlee]

If climbing the greasy pole to management, or taking a desk job is what lights your fire my friend, then go for it.

I'm a pilot because I love flying, and very often, the most 'fun' flying jobs are outside the airline industry. Only a small proportion of airline guys give up the big bucks and airline benefits to return to more grassroots aviation on anything more than a part-time basis. Guys whose ambitions from day 1 bypass all that are missing out on a great deal of enjoyment.

[wheelie my boeing]

Sitting at a desk job? Greasy pole to management? COULD it be possible that you actually have no idea what many pilot-managers do within companies these days? Being in many of these positions will give you FAR more valuable experience than flying a small prop around some dirt strip. This is partly why there are plenty of people who fly these small props around dirt strips all over the world, and this is why there aren't so many top pilot managers...

I totally agree with you that small GA flying would be fantastic fun. Fact is many are unable to even consider it as pay is poor, and MOST of us want families and want to be able to afford at least our own dinner


However, to state that becoming involved in recruitment/flight ops/training means you are in a "desk job" shows your complete lack of knowledge and is actually quite shocking. Evidently you are oblivious to what a manager/recruiter/trainer actually does. Oh well, I must get back to trying to climb that "greasy pole", because there is nothing more I want to do than to get myself a fancy new "DESK job" :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :}

[Day_Dreamer]

There are many 18 / 19 year old integrated scheme pilots in the right seats of B.737 and Airbus aircraft for BA, Titan, Ryanair to name but three companies.
I state integrated because to achieve this by 19 it is hard to complete by the modular route, due to the timescale involved, but not impossible.
I know of several 150 hour pilots ex integrated training who have achieved the right seat straight out of training having started training at 18 from zero flight time.

There is really no need to plod through as an instructor, or General Aviation pilot to achieve the airline goal in good times, but now as fuel costs bite and airlines lay off pilots the opportunities will deminish or cease to exist.

BA have a hiring freeze, U.K. Charter airlines are about to lay off or retire early up to 300 pilots.
Not to mention possible airline collapses in Europe over the winter 2008 / 9.

From a trainers point of view, its just as easy to train a cadet to line standard as a more experienced pilot who may have the extra hours but are less flexible to new SOP's and may have inherited some bad habits over the years.
On the plus side the more experienced co-pilot may better at handling and flying raw data than his cadet colleague, but any airline with a good training department will have a scheme in place to advance cadet's to a similar level whilst online.
Today we have many pilots who have only flown glass cockpits and have little or no other experience, but yet are first class operators of their equipment.

The old argument is do we count hours or sectors towards experience and I am NOT looking to open the debate here.

18 to 20 year old's in the right seat are certainly common in Europe, but remember they have to achieve the same standards as any other jet first officer to get into that seat and stay there, and it takes ability, maturity and (Yes) money to get there.

[FL370 Officeboy]

In my opinion the best way to become a good solid line pilot is to fly the line. From my experience, people who have plodded around in a C152 for years beforehand have no better performance than cadets.

There is no room for this 'working class hero' crap we hear about how you should bash circuits for hours or fly some clapped out old taildragger if you want to be a REAL pilot. If you want to be an airline pilot then get there as quickly as possible. A year flying the line will meake you an infinitely better 'operator' then crop spraying ever would do.

[Adios]

FL370 Officeboy,

Finally someone speaking some sense and boiling the crux of the matter down to a mere 5 sentences!

[Maude Charlee]

Silly me. I forgot that all our management pilots and recruiters conduct their duties from the flight deck. I well remember my interview strapped into the jumpseat, en route to EDI................

Just remind me of the job interview VHF frequency again.

:rolleyes:

[snoepys]

Well said OFFICEBOY.I couldnt agree with you more.

[CABUS]

Bravo Officeboy, my thoughts exactly:ok::D

[redsnail]

I beg to differ from FL370 Officeboy,

Crop dusting isn't for the faint hearted or the marginal pilot. Take a crop sprayer who's flown turbine equipment and done night spraying etc, then give them a year's line flying and they'll be brilliant. I've flown with a former crop sprayer and his skills were very much in evident. He also taught me a few tips and tricks with the FMS as well.

Not all GA is bimbling around VFR in a single engine fixed pitch prop 4 seater.

[BerksFlyer]

But redsnail, seeing as they're very different types of flying, I don't see how the experience crop spraying is relevant? While it would make him a good crop sprayer, how would that translate to being a better line pilot after a year than someone who's been on the line for a year without that previous experience?

[redsnail]

I didn't say he'd be necessarily better but he sure as heck wouldn't be worse.

However, what a crop sprayer would bring to the party so to speak is
a prior appreciation of a commercial operation, a greater appreciation of wind and the effects close to the ground during landing and take off, weather issues, esp down bursts and so on.

In short. Real commercial experience. A crop sprayer isn't an inexperienced pilot. You just can't get a start without at least 500 to 1000 hours.

Crop spraying (for one aspect of GA ops) isn't just chucking some chemicals about for a laugh. It's very precise flying dealing with very expensive and potentially dangerous chemicals. If you can fly a turbine accurately at 50' spraying crops, you can fly an ILS with the A/P in too. However, he (or she) will probably have a greater appreciation of how the wind will affect the aircraft during a x-wind landing etc.

As I said, crop spraying (or any other demanding commercial operation) will give the pilot valuable experience that will be of benefit as well as a year's flying the line.

To be honest, a crop sprayer probably wouldn't do "airlines". They'd be bored. Also, (in Australia at least 10 years ago), they'd make more money in 6 months than an airline pilot would make in 12.

It's not just about flying an aircraft from A to B.

I am not saying a keen enthusiast low houred pilot is a liability, certainly not, they'll learn a lot. Just don't write off a keen enthusiastic GA pilot either or the experience it'll bring.

My point is not dissimilar to FL370 Officeboy's. I just took umbrage at his disparaging remarks about crop sprayers. That is a totally different world to pootling around VFR in a C152 staring out the window enjoying the view.

One could say that blasting around at 50' in a fast jet delivering ordnance is not relevant to multi crew airline ops but just watch the recruiters fall over themselves to hire a fast jet jock. :E

[expedite08]

Very true Redsnail. office boy sounds just like a spoilt little boy! Though its the attitudes of people like him that allow us 'working class heros' to get jobs in real planes! I hope there are many more with his attitude!!

:E

[black-out]

so why do they have cadet progams if they don't work?

[mr.tos]

The UK market is also very different to Australia. As you say, you will need to work your way up to the airlines, here you can get in with 300hrs straight on to a jet (i.e. 737) although I suspect that those days are numbered for the time being. Can also be a jet captain with only around 3-3500hrs if you're lucky and good enough.3500tt might get you command in OZ........


on a nice big SAAB earning 60k a year!!! :}

[kev2002]

HOW.......................do you manage to find anything to talk about on those long sectors?? Hardly much life experience to call on not to mention the boring flying stories.

"One time I was coming in to land and there was like a 15kt crosswind and I was like totally stooging it in and had to go around. It was killer. I'll never forget that day!!"

[CABUS]

I believe cadet schemes can be a good idea as long as the initial screening process is any good. I am sure that there are excellent cadets and some questionable ones, being a mere f/o I have yet to fly with any but my company seems to enjoy taking them on. I also feel that being a flying instructor is priceless and allows the chance to learn pilot monitoring skills. However, I also feel that SOME, not all, instructors can get into bad habbits which COULD possibly be seen by airlines as being a SMALL problem, hence cadets. I do feel though that having high hours in a single burning holes in the sky could have an adverse affects on your cv becuase it would be easy to get into a position where bad habbits start to occur and there is a very limited amount of experience which can be gained in a single that has any relationship to the airlines.

[pablo2973]

Dont worry young fellow,at the age of 23 you are doing well above average ,those people flying an airliner at 18 or 20 ,are the "lucky ones " found in all aspects of life ,but I bet they did not have to pay for the training they did not learn a second language , they dont have a university degree,and of course they did not have to build flight time in remote places risking their lives ,they just pay ,and pay and pay .
So dont worry whatsoever ,you have all your life to make your dream come true ,and will enjoy much more than the younger colleages .:D

[turboV1]

I would like to point out that it's not really fair to compare an ab initio 200h pilot vs a GA pilot with 1000h+ during supervision on their first airline job.
Say you give the former the same line flight time it took the GA pilot to get these 1000h, how do the two of them compare now?

I think the point is not on who is better prepared during supervision, but after a similar amount of total flight time.

Anyhow, if these schemes are in place, and working, and no accidents have resulted from them, the system is probably not so bad.

A different issue is what expectations has each and everyone of us about their flying career. That differs clearly from pilot to pilot.

[Ell85]

Hi guys. I know this is a late but I wanted to say thanks for all the replies. I don't really know if airlines are actually the way I want to go at least straight away but getting in the right hand seat that young just seems so totally unbelievable for someone flying in regional Australia. Again thanks for all the replies... and it's young lady not young fellow :p.

[CirrusF]

I feel sorry for cadets who start that young. Some of my friends who started that young and are now in their mid-forties are totally bored with flying but have no skills to try anything else. All they've got in front of them is another twenty years of the same. I didn't start professional flying until 40 and am still loving every minute of it. I also have forty years of very varied and interesting life to look back on and draw on in the future should I decide to stop flying one day.

[tiger2411]

so you dont think its too late to start at 38?

[CABUS]

Its never too late to start buddy and its well worth it!! You would still have over 20 years flying and depending what airline probably well over 10 in command, go for it!:ok:

[Toasty]

Cirrus,
im very suprised ot hear u have friends who started out as young cadet and are bored of flying now and have no other skills. Being a pilot is the perfect job to get involved with all sorts of other duties within the airline, recruitment, management, operations, get to know the company inside out! and start your own if your bored!
With a decent salary there's money to play with! They could invest, start companys, play the stock market, the possibilities are endless.

[Sabre1987]

I dont think you can negate experience, as long as it doesn't make the pilot bigheaded and pompus.
However the new pilots willingness to learn cant be sniffed at either.