Crab SAR crews (and cabs?) in Afghan?

[Something witty]

RAF sends air rescue crews to Afghanistan - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4449461.ece)

Just been started on arrse:

British Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > RAF sends air rescue helicopters to Afghanistan (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=102517.html)

One crew per station to go on holiday sans bucket and spade... not so sure but the Times thinks the cabs are going too - Can Gordon afford a re-spray? I've got half a tin of green in the garage...:sad:

[MaroonMan4]

Witty,

Are you surprised? The word in Main Building is to cut and to make savings - but at the same time British servicemen and women are being killed.

Bit of a quandry for the politicians, treasury and defence brass - decisions decisions hey.

Isn't it sad that there should be a decsion to make - if ever there was a time not to cut military defence spending and if ever there was a time to invest in more Support Helicopters and replace those that were ageing and old. If ever there was a time to invest in more aircrew and retain more aircrew.

Then now is the time - there should not be this annual farce of each Service coughing up options for the treasury to decide on what to cut.

Unless that is they all know something that we don't and that is that UK Foreign policy is going to be re-aligned with expectations that match the reality of what is really availible.

I look forward to welcoming the SAR crews out here, undoubtedley they will bring some very valuable skillsets, and hopefully we will be able to help them out with those that are missing from their current role/employment. I also hope that they get a bit of high DA handling action in as well - Boulmer and Chiv on a UK summers day isn't quite the same.

But if we look back on Prune and look at the discussions about 'scraping the barrel' etc - well the UK MoD are now at the stage of using absolutely everything and anything. If there is anything else left after this (apart from DHFS and Training establishments) then will someone please let me know.

[Mick Smith]

The Times doesnt think the helicopters are going too, that was a pisspoor headline put on by a sub whose first language is presumably not English and was amended at midnight when I saw it on the web. The new headline is the one at the top of the first post, ie just a fifth of the crews.

[Sven Sixtoo]

As ever, there is an element of truth in the report.

[seafuryfan]

See Link:

BBC NEWS | UK | Search crews to go to Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7539512.stm)

[Something witty]

MM, I am not surprised as such and agree with all you say; in fact I am pleased in a strange way - we do need more crews and pulling them from SAR is about the one way (short of compulsory call up of those who have already left :\) that Joe Civi will take any notice - it's about the only thing likely to affect him or his mates.

Pulling blokes out of the training system would be a dangerous move indeed - using SAR crews is bad enough and I think we are already feeding on ourselves but the enevitable constriction and reduction of fresh blood to the front line is an even more unsustainable situation, the more so when retention is largely realised by ROS alone.

For what it's worth, here's my bit on arrse:

//Isn't it fortunate that we have a military SAR force (read an in-great-desperation reserve of trained and skilled crews) from which to pinch some chaps... leap ahead beyond the much vaunted privatisation of SAR in 2012 and what would happen then? Would we be able to bolster the front line in extremis in such a manner? No.

I'm sure the brass would claim those crews post 2012 are permanantly released to front line and so thus this situation would not arise... but we all know that is arrse, afterall, surely the point of having reserves of strength (even if you don't call them that) is that you dont plan on using them and you maintain their availablity... no-one can know when you might be overstreached and in dire need of that support... ok, ok, so 39,000 RAF, 34,000 RN and 102,000 Army, their wives, wives' tennis partners, wives' tennis partners' friends and the whole of the English speaking world (bar ZanuLabour) have known and forseen the need for some time but you catch my drift.

Will this cause a re-think of SAR privatisation?

Will the sweeping privitisation of all manner of UK based jobs be halted or reversed because they realise the utility of having spare blokes in the system?

Will Gordon Brown admit that a better way to honour the memory and courage of fallen soldiers, sailors and airmen he talks about in his recent book would be to fully support IN ALL RESPECTS their successors who too fight and die for each other in foreign fields?

If true this is an incredible, if admittedly necessary, move. In my book this kind of thing is for the approach of WWIII - there is no way that we should be in this state over Afghan and Iraq; another indicator, as if it were needed, that we have past the elastic limit. //

S_W / F_G

[Lurking123]

I would also be interested to see how the MOD propose to maintain a permanent 4 watch 24/7 at the SAR units.

[Green Flash]

If there is anything else left after this (apart from DHFS and Training establishments) then will someone please let me know.

It will come mate, it will come. Or maybe one of the 'private airforces' the Yanks are so fond of. Get your Sandline/Blackwater applications ready!

I would also be interested to see how the MOD propose to maintain a permanent 4 watch 24/7 at the SAR units.

They'll privatise. The Stornoway boys have got a new cab so maybe the old one might not be far away or maybe they would like a bit of overtime in the Moray Firth!

It will, of course, only be a short term fix, maybe enough to get to the next election. Swiss Des has two jobs, after all, so why not everyone else?

[animo et fide]

This is old news gents, some of the SAR boys have been out in Afghanistan for some time filling in for the paramedics on the MERT

[MaroonMan4]

Animo,

Agreed, the MERT bit is old news - but the media create the impression by insuating pilots as well (and I must be honest, I have heard nothing about aircrew, so agree with you words).

So, if there are not pilots involved then both the Times and BBC may like a phone call from the MoD Press office to ensure clarity and stop both public and military types spooling up.

But, whether to fill MERT crews or fill yellow fun buses - the comment remains - the jam is being spread extremely thin - whether a front ender or down the back (remove one part of the team and the overall system becomes fragile).

[Marly Lite]

This is all smoke and mirrors, The SAR force is undermanned as is most of the rest of the Rotary fleets, cutting from 5 to 4 crews per flight is simply adjusting the manpower from where it should be to roughly where it was headed anyway due to natural wastage and an inability of 203 to get any serviceable cabs to train anyone.

There won't be any yellow helis in afg and not many SAR crews will go SH, most of them are too happy in the pipe and slipper mode. (I don't blame em)

The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift??

[Jayand]

If this is true then we really are near the end! the SAR boys won't like this and I think you will see a lot of Pvr's winging their way through JPA cyberspacer.
Were just stealing from peter to pay paul and it has to stop:ugh:, the slippery slope just got steeper, the mire at the bottom just got deeper!

[spheroid]

the SAR boys won't like this and I think you will see a lot of Pvr's winging their way through JPA cyberspacer

Makes you wonder why they wear the uniform.

[Winch-control]

Some one has to say it... So, SAR to the Rescue, although 300,000 Russians cant be wrong, can they? hmmmm

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Well said TOFO! :ok:

sv

[jayteeto]

We use 4 crews to maintain 24/7 police cover. This does NOT mean one day in four working for us. A sensible pattern is 2x12hr days followed by 2x12hr nights then 4 off. 48 hrs in eight days is close to a 'normal' working week. Even if the SAR crews do 24hr shifts you have to take into account leave / courses / sickness etc etc. We ship in floater pilots to cover this in civvie world. Where do military 'floaters' come from?? Four to five crews seems like a sensible option for 24hr ops.
PS. You should see how many crews an airline has per airframe....

[[email protected]]

Agreed - I believe to conform to current civilian regulations you actually need 5 crews for a 24/7 SAR flight working 24 hour shifts.

[Brain Potter]

The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift??

I thought there were 2 helicopters at each unit, with one crew on a high RS and another on standby at home. To make this work 4 crews are needed with the fifth then available for training, admin and leave.

Does this mean there won't always be a fresh second crew to call-in and the second cab/relief crew may only be available if there happens to be suitably rested crew at home?

As an aside, does any one else think that the term "Crab" is becoming over-used and somewhat tiresome? As a term of derision, it is fair enough in the appropriate context, but it's appearance in these kind of topics seems to set a unnecessarily confrontational tone that doesn't reflect the content of the debate.

[extpwron]

“As an aside, does any one else think that the term "Crab" is becoming over-used and somewhat tiresome?”

I agree. I think you’ll find it’s mainly fishheads and pongos that use the expression.

[PTT]

As an aside, does any one else think that the term "Crab" is becoming over-used and somewhat tiresome?
Yep, that's the way to stop people calling you one... :rolleyes:

[Fareastdriver]

Many years ago I had been at my first civvy job for three days. An ex-navy pilot started wandering around the ops room sniffing the air and saying "Crabs, can you smell crabs".
This was not the envirionment that I wished to work in so I went into the chief pilot's office and told him the reason I was leaving.
I left, thirty minutes later the other was fired.

[minigundiplomat]

I find it best to try and ignore the navy. Most of the banter stems from a massive inferiority complex.

If they wanted to fly, they would have made the grade for the RAF, if they wanted to be fine leaders of men, they would have joined the Army.

Instead, they wallow in their own irrelevance, sneering at the other services and using the RM as a cloak of respectability.

Most booties I know quite rightly think of theselves as the fourth Armed Service, not a bolt on appendage of the war canoe fleet.

Apart from that, the RN are delightful.

[Hugh S]

Marly Lite:
The only question I have is 4 crews to man 1 on call SAR stby cab? Surely this is overmanning? 1 day in 4 on shift?

1 cab on 1st standby for 24 hours a day with a second cab on RS60 (60 minutes notice) during daylight hours, 365 days a year.

Add to that 2 SAR Force crews in the Falklands at any given time. When you add courses, leave, filling in for medically downgraded staff and, perhaps, a day off, I think that your comments about overmanning are at best naive.

Unless, of course, you are part of the SAR Force and are sarcastically taking the p*ss.

[Tourist]

I find it best to try and ignore loadies. Most of the banter stems from a massive inferiority complex.

If they wanted to fly, they would have made the grade for the pilot, if they wanted to be fine leaders of men, they would have become officers.

Instead, they wallow in their own irrelevance, sneering at the real aircrew and using the flying suit as a cloak of respectability.

Apart from that, the rear crew are delightful.

[scottishbeefer]

MGD

Did one of those nasty Navy boys turn down your advances?

[minigundiplomat]

LOL.:)


Instead, they wallow in their own irrelevance, sneering at the real aircrew and using the flying suit as a cloak of respectability.



You've never flown the Chinook have you. Besides, if we kill off Heron Flight and it's 'real aircrew' I'll be denied the chance to sneer at you. Oh well, guess I'll live.


Did one of those nasty Navy boys turn down your advances?


They turn people down?

MGD

[Jackonicko]

Tourist!
:ok::ok::ok:

MGD's original post was funny and very well observed, but I have to say that your riposte is Delightful (if utterly disgraceful and wrong)!

Showing a much finer and defter touch than some of your earlier attempts at wit.

:D:D:D

Have you been drinking whatever Oscar drank, or have you been on exchange with an RAF unit?

[Tourist]

I thank you.:ok:

[Marly Lite]

Hugh S,

I was under the impression that the seconds crew were for the chop in this new arrangement?

[cobaltfrog]

I have to say, that with a DComd of JHC as a previous SAR Stn Cdr and AD OPs also SAR is it any wonder that the SAR force are being pinged for Ops??? (And yes I know they have been helping out elsewhere on ops for a while!!).

[R 21]

I think this is a great idea....however my two pence for what its worth.

I have a few mates who are ex SH and it makes them laugh when they hear the direct to SAR crews complain about how hard they work. It is an easier life, however I do feel sorry for the SH lads who went to SAR for a rest. Looks like it back to the finest tents JHC has to offer!!!

[detgnome]

I can just see some of those in the SAR force who are just a bit too comfortable with previous manning levels bumping their gums as they endure their fourth month of (shock horror) 10 shifts! Where will I have time to build my house etc etc...

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I was under the impression that the seconds crew were for the chop in this new arrangement?

No - current commitments are to be maintained (ie 1st and 2nd standby). Given that the SAR flts were topped up from 4 to 5 crews in '82 to provide enough manpower for the Falklands commitment, it will be interesting to see how trimming flts back to 4 will leave enough people to cover UK and Falklands and the other, newer, operational commitments as well.

[No Vote Joe]

It's all cynical smoke and mirors, chaps.

I don't know of any of the SAR flts that have 5 full crews! Therefore, by reducing them to 4, some Flts become fully manned instead of being 20% under established, and those with 3 crews are now only 25% under rather than 40%. Hey Presto, manning is on the up!!

Admittedly the Master Race is far better manned than the Oiks, so a few young thrusters may find their next OCU at Odiham or Benson, but don't expect to see any rearcrew with them.

Lies, damned lies and statistics!!

[davejb]

if they wanted to be fine leaders of men, they would have become officers

No offence chaps, but which of those little icons on the right is the 'guffaw' smiley?

My continued best wishes and utmost respect to those officers I consider myself fortunate to have met and/or served under over the years - probably about the same percentage of nco's who I stood in awe of over the same period.

As ever Pprune correspondents prefer to take the rip out of each other, instead of considering the significant question of how well a pipe smoking, slipper festooned crew with a big yellow cab is going to fit into Afgooliestan? Perhaps even wondering why there aren't enough camo'd alternatives (plus crews) given the several years our forces have now been in theatre.... how many years does it take to appreciate what force levels are actually required in theatre? Piss poor planning, etc, as ever... put the blame where it belongs, instead of feeding on each other.

[Roland Pulfrew]

NVJ

I don't know of any of the SAR flts that have 5 full crews! Therefore, by reducing them to 4, some Flts become fully manned instead of being 20% under established, and those with 3 crews are now only 25% under rather than 40%.

Unfortunately ACOS Manning don't work that way. No-one is at 100% manning, and if any unit or squadron got to 100%, Manning would just gap some posts so that the unit "took its share of the pain". In today's climate if you need 4 crews to meet the task you should ensure you are established for 5. If you set your establishment at 4 you will only get 3 and then you........ increase the PVR rate.

One might assume that to meet the frontline establishment you should man your training machine at 100% to ensure the right number of new pink bodies get pumped through the sausage machine. Anyone name a training unit that has 100% manning? Ergo....planning to fail?

[davejb]

Tofo,
I was commenting on how the fighting had (as ever) turned into a pi$$ing contest between branches - Energy better expended on discussing this wonderful new idea, that more helos are needed out there, and one helo and crew is pretty well the same as any other....what next I wonder, Chinny crews on R&R in Blighty covering SAR?

[IrishSarBoy]

this thread's a bit flat for one that involves SAR! All I can say is 'keep your head down'. As for being shot at, um, no thanks.