Looping a lynx - control inputs?

[Draco]

I enjoyed watching the Blue Eagles at Middle Wallop on Saturday.

Curious - can anyone explain the control inputs needed for the back flip from high hover?

Imagine being the first person to try that!

The usual "don't try this at home or in a R22" apply....

[tegwin]

Not sure on the inputs required for a lynx....but model helicopters are thus:

Collective up (Lots of power), cyclic back to drop tail, as aircraft starts to rotate past about 90 degrees, drop collective back down and allow the aircraft to flop backwards (Upside down)....again once the aircraft has rotated far enough, bring the power back up to pull the ship round to level(hopefully the right way up)...

[ShyTorque]

Thanks, I've got a check ride coming up soon - that'll impress the examiner ;)

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ....

I believe the major control inputs involve the tightening of the sphincter muscles!


:E

[Letsby Avenue]

The fun starts when you exit the flip facing the wrong way...:} They don't always go to plan.:eek:

[212man]

The fun starts when you exit the flip facing the wrong way... They don't always go to plan.

Just make sure your harness is secure.......:ok:

[SASless]

Forget the harness....just put a nice shiny trailer hitch ball in the middle of the seat....the "Look Ma! No Hands!" mod!

[[email protected]]

Before you do the display you check on the ground that you can get absolutely full aft cyclic without any restrictions such as the 5 point harness buckle getting in the way.

For the manoeuvre it is 1000' in the hover (some prefer a gentle climb) ideally into wind, ASE out (the gyros will topple anyway) but with the yaw channels in for stability, a deep breath and then full aft cyclic with some left as well to oppose the pitch roll couple that occurs on the Lynx. Hold it and look up for the horizon (just like looping a FW) and then you start to feed in forward cyclic to compensate for flapback. The extra drag on the TOW booms helps control the speed on exit.

It can be done from 1000' hover and recovered to a 700' hover for a second go but it's a lot of 'G' and rattling.

If you can manage to say 'Howaayyy ya foooka' in a Geordie accent as you initiate the manoeuvre then you get extra style marks:)

[MightyGem]

then you get extra style marks
When was style ever associated with Geordieland?

[BobbyBolkow]

Imagine being the first person to try that!

I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe this 'back flip' is credited to an old mate of mine Ray Turner (AAC).
Got to admit it looks BRILL:D from the ground but, apparently, is "quite interesting" from inside!
Just had my 6 monthly and altough I did need to impress my examiner - I didn't try this one!


Does anybody know how to fly this thing?

[[email protected]]

It feels odd because, unlike a loop where you go up before you go down, with a back flip you just fall out of the sky backwards - almost the most fun you can have with your clothes on:)

[Agaricus bisporus]

I'd like to have been a fly on the wall when the "first time" pilot's CO saw it!

Hmm, praps he was the CO...



And a thought has occurred.

If this is no more than a flip-over then is there any reason why it has to be done backwards? Why not a bunt?

[MightyGem]

If this is no more than a flip-over then is there any reason why it has to be done backwards? Why not a bunt?
So, you're in the hover at 1000' and sharply push the cyclic forward as far as it will go, and hold it there until the world's the right way up again. Yeah. Right. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Lt.Fubar]

Well it works in Bolkov... well half of it :}

YouTube - Raab in Gefahr beim Hubschrauberkunstflug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VduY2UwdaEo)

[skadi]

So, you're in the hover at 1000' and sharply push the cyclic forward as far as it will go, and hold it there until the world's the right way up again. Yeah. Right. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Rainer Wilke, the pilot of the Red Bull 105, is planning to do that. As he said lately in a TV-Spot, it should be possible, they made calculations together with ECD to approve it....
Im looking forward to see the coming videos :ooh:

skadi

[Agaricus bisporus]

Mighty Gem, instead of sneering please use your evidently mighty intellect to inform us why, "when you're in the hover at 1000' and sharply push the cyclic forward as far as it will go, and hold it there until the world's the right way up again" is so obviously differrent to pulling it back sharply until ditto?

If you can...

[Hughes500]

Well that display makes Dennis K's look like a stroll in the park !!!!

[JBL99]

Hoping the Red Bull Team do this again on Sunday :eek:

RGu45s1_QPU
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGu45s1_QPU)

[diginagain]

I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe this 'back flip' is credited to an old mate of mine Ray Turner (AAC).

I heard it was down to Graham Waddington - not that I would wish to steal anything from Ray, who's done very well for a former 'rag-and-shag' bloke.

Another mate, John Carr, offerred to take me along for a demo during my Lynx course. It was veto'd by the grown-ups, although I'm not sure if they were trying to protect me or prevent me from getting ideas above my station.

Personally, I think it's a very impressive move.

[jonwilly]

G.W. told me back in May that he was the first person to carry out this maneuver.
He was not shooting the sh1t, but the tale came out as a follow up to the conversation we where having, we had not seen each other since we both served on the same Sqn 20 years before.
john

[[email protected]]

Yes - just imagine - full forward cyclic, losing height quite quickly; 90 deg nose down, really going down quick now; inverted but still going down very very fast, where did that 1000 feet go? Not to mention the negative 'G' and the fact that both the engines would have been starved of oil and blown up.

I suspect that the Red Bull pilot will do it from a high rate of vertical climb or from climbing backwards flight. Good luck:ok:

Back to the flip, so to speak, I believe it was GW and others who started off doing a version of the manoeuvre to get from the high hover (NI Ops) down to low level quickly, a sort of 'over the shoulder' transition. Then it was a case of well if it will do that, will it do this? and the back flip was born.

[sunnywa]

During the Eurocopter Tiger visit to Australia in 98 or 99, the pilot flipped the Tiger in a backwards loop from the hover (kind of over the shoulder ) back to the hover from no more than 200ft ht. Very impressive.:ooh::ooh::ooh::ooh:
Then the tiger was crashed near Townsville a week or so later. :sad:

[oldbeefer]

More balls than I've got!

[Mr_G_Box]

It was down to Graham Waddington, who was being crewed by Ken Beveridge for the Eagles team of 1987 (although it might have been 86) I believe it started as an over the shoulder sort of thing and gradually became more and more upright until it was going straight over. Bit like being in a washing machine on the spin cycle as it goes around very quickly. Little finesse about it, cyclic 'yanked' back as far as it will go. Exciting though. Hi Diginagain, you well?

[EESDL]

AB - have you sussed it yet - high-rate control inputs being applied at low loading in a back flip - whereas if you push cyclic forward from hover...........you do know what a cyclic is?

tongue out of cheek now

[starflex fixer]

I am sure you and I have done those sorts of things old beefer??

SFF

[[email protected]]

Shhh Starflex - don't mention getting Pumas upside down;)

[starflex fixer]

Never had the fortune of a ride in the queen of the skies with OB, would like to have though!!

[If all else fails]

The 'over the shoulder' technique assuming a good rate of rearwards climb could actually result in little more than 50' height loss - just depended on the combination of aft and lateral cyclic (and rate of application). Technically then of course it was more a 'twist' than a back flip.

[212man]

Then the tiger was crashed near Townsville a week or so later

Doing something totally unrelated - it was at low level on NVG and had an electrical failure.

[Sid447]

Quote.
"...........G.W. told me back in May that he was the first person to carry out this maneuver.
He was not shooting the sh1t, but the tale came out as a follow up to the conversation we where having, we had not seen each other since we both served on the same Sqn 20 years before.
john........"

If he did it before 1982, then he may well have been the first.

[erang5]

how do you loop a helicopter like the BO-105 redbull? at what air speed do you start pulling? colective settings during each segment?.....

[roundwego]

Never mind a Bolkow - they are easy with their rigid heads and only weighing about 1.7tonnes. Have a look at the EC225 (circa 8tonnes) about 20 seconds into this clip

xZsb-5-2KWU
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZsb-5-2KWU)

[Spanish Waltzer]

You get a very good instructor to teach you in the aircraft rather than asking on here otherwise you will only try it once :(

[Mungo5]

As SW said - don't try it on your own.

But, this may help Looping a Lynx - control inputs? (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=4303789#post4303789)

[RMK]

OK now lesson #2, what are the inputs for the barrel roll? Of course for information purposes only; we all promise not to try it in a R22.

[What Limits]

Lesson #3

Highly experienced helicopter aerobatic pilot doesn't get away with it this time

IiEfX3PDzTc

Anyone thinking of doing any of this, give your own head a shake!

[whodictus]

Hi Guys
For some reason I had Mick Favinger in the frame for the flip :D

[206Fan]

4AEOsywBspw

[SixAxis]

Not that it helps the first date discussion, but in 1987 I flew the Lynx in all bar the last few displays of the season as got posted to UNFICYP and wasn't about to say no to that! However we only did the over the shoulder pull at that time, although it did get more pitchy and less roll as we got used to it...

[hihover]

I think you might find the first was Bloo in '84, way before Graham or Ray.

Tam

[whodictus]

Hi Tam
I remember Bloo,s displays his biggies were the tuck under with a 360 twist and of course the Bloo Roll;)

[DennisK]

Hoffman was looping the MB105 at Farnboro in 1976! Flight International reported the event.

We chatted through the control sequence to help my display routine on the first Farnbro display of the Enstrom 280 Shark.

Dennis K

[John Eacott]

This photo recently resurfaced on the interweb thingy, but I haven't had much luck with a higher res copy nor a history of the event. Great photo, does anyone have more information, real, Photoshop, when, who?

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10296606_10152678750386261_7652154295060325833_n.jpg?oh=e7b8 288be853c8846515c4ed944bb3b0&oe=56544FDE

[SilsoeSid]

Looked at the other way round;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/Lynx%20stonehenge_zpsbbkitp0b.png

[Darren999]

That's a great picture :)

[P6 Driver]

The backflip from the hover, as opposed to a fully flown "loop" in the Lynx used to be referred to as "The Elphinstone Loop".

It sounds like everyone invented this one!

[handysnaks]

The backflip from the hover, as opposed to a fully flown "loop" in the Lynx used to be referred to as "The Elphinstone Loop".

Not sure you're correct on that one P6. I'm pretty sure the Elphinstone Loop was a very steep wingover which, when looked at from the ground appeared to be a loop. Often carried out in a Gazelle, it was (supposed to be) within the Pitch roll limits. I'm sure more experienced hands than me on this means will be quick to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong!!

cue, TC, SS, Crab, et al....

[[email protected]]

No, you are spot on handysnaks:ok:

The backflip was developed form a tactical backwards transition (over the shoulder stylee) and just taken further and further.

[Thomas coupling]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUYwHXfxLpc

lUYwHXfxLpc


Minute: 1:37 - Elphinstone loop. Although I don't recall hearing this name bandied around.

Minute: 2:50 - close your eyes:D:D


Trouble with looping Gaz pieces is (a)Not allowed (except when no-one was looking) (b) dust and s*it flying everywhere in the cockpit afterwards. (c) CWP lit up like a beleesha beacon. ( and you had to pay off the engineers to keep them quiet!:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5hBq0LNDW4

v5hBq0LNDW4

Minute: 1:10 and 1:20. Enjoy.....................................

[P6 Driver]

Happy to be wrong!
:)

A great series of manoeuvres whatever they are and whoever first flew them.

[heli1]

The first time I saw a backflip was with the Bo105 at the world helicopter championships ,I think at Cranfield .when Dennis had his tail rotor failure.The Lynx came later.

[pulse1]

I suppose that the Wildcat will put an end to all that fun?

[TacomaSailor]

Sometime in early May this year I was sitting on my boat in San Diego Bay enjoying a beer. A bright red and black helicopter appeared over the bay near the USS Midway aircraft carrier at a 1000' or so.

Suddenly started spewing heavy black smoke and went straight up, lost speed, fell over and headed straight down while looking quite unstable. With a LOT of black smoke trailing astern.

I had my cell phone in hand and was dialing 911.

At about 400' recovered, quite abruptly with little grace, and commenced a violent climb with all kinds of strange rotations and gyrations. Looked to be clearly out of control. I have seen dozens of aerobatic displays and this one had none of the grace, style, or even sense of control.

... and so on for 10-minutes. Loops of various kinds.

Smoke went off and the helicopter flew away.

There had been no announcements of a flight display nor any festival or special event planned. Never did hear a word about what the display was about.

[heli1]

That'll be the USBased Red Bull pilot practisingTacoma.....but don't panic he's retiring this year !