More AFPEx Madness!!! [Archive]

TotalBeginner

31st Jul 2008, 11:48

Apparently, London INFO and the London FBU are now refusing to activate (i.e send a DEP message) for VFR flight plans that were filed using AFPEx. :eek:

A couple of days ago, a friend and I planned to fly to Le Touquet. We filed both the outbound and return FPL's using AFPEx and addressed them according to CAP550.

Once airbourne, we called London INFO and requested that the FPL be activated. We were told that this was not possible due to the FPL originating online. We didn't argue and returned home.

After making a few phone calls we were given a very "loose" explanation. But I'm still not sure I fully understand. Apparently, when flight plans are filed by the FBU, the plan (and addressees) are saved with the callsign. When a DEP message is sent, they simply copy the addresses from the original FPL. If you file using AFPEx, they don't have a copy of the original addressees and so have to hand address the departure message which is apparently too time consuming... Utter madness! :mad:

So what are the options? Sit at the holding point with your laptop switched on? :=

S-Works

31st Jul 2008, 12:19

dublinpilot

31st Jul 2008, 12:19

I can't believe that could possibly true! It must be a misunderstanding?

jollyrog

31st Jul 2008, 12:59

I have a user account for this but haven't actually used it yet. Was thinking of doing so at the weekend, for a LeTouquet trip. (Probably going to be blown out by weather, but that's another story...)

Will this nonsense affect plans filed via Homebriefing?

MANAGP

31st Jul 2008, 13:04

Did you right click the addressees box and add VFR addresses? This hsould have ensured that your flight plan was sent to the relevant FIRs, otherwise it will have only been sent to Departure, Destination and Alternate airfields.

I wouldn't have returned, the FIR controllers are civil servants and are effectively paid by the tax payer. If they can't produce a workable system then we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences!

TotalBeginner

31st Jul 2008, 13:13

I can't believe that could possibly true! It must be a misunderstanding?

Exactly what I thought! Surely there must be a way around it?

Did you right click the addressees box and add VFR addresses? This hsould have ensured that your flight plan was sent to the relevant FIRs, otherwise it will have only been sent to Departure, Destination and Alternate airfields.

The issue wasn't with the original FPL. After sending it we called LFAT and they confirmed that it had been received. The issue is with the DEP message.

Wrong Stuff

31st Jul 2008, 13:28

I rasied this awhile ago about AFPx. I don't think it was ever intended as a tool for the small VFR or evn IFR flyer to put online plans in but rather as a tool for airfields and FBO's with staff and a fixed installation. It is the tecnhogeeks amongst us that have seized on it as a way of filing plans when operating from our private strips and unmanned aerodromes.
The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots. If you remember, about 18 months ago quite a few of the regular GA flight-plan filers got a telephone call asking what we'd want from a tool, what browsers we used, etc. I'd be surprised if you weren't one of the people they called.

I certainly remember telling them at the time that it would be useless for me unless it was usable on the move from a mobile-phone browser. I'm not surprised that got particular requirement didn't make it to the final specs, but it was certainly always intended for use by GA pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have been ringing us asking for our views.

MANAGP

31st Jul 2008, 13:42

Sorry TB

I get you now. Like I said I'd have got them to do it! The more people who demand it done the more feedback the Afpex people will get.

Also

The helpdesk is open 24 hours on:

+44 845 601 0483

or if you prefer

+44 1489 612792

bookworm

31st Jul 2008, 14:04

So what are the options? Sit at the holding point with your laptop switched on?

The procedure is in AIP SUP 7/2008 ("http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/sup/EG_SUP_2008_07_en.pdf).

8.1 ... If there is no ATSU at the departure aerodrome, or the ATSU is not connected to the AFTN, the pilot is responsible for ensuring that a departure message is passed by one of the following means:

(a) AFPEx (if the FPL has been filed via AFPEx) then to activate the FPL and enable the DEP message to be sent to the appropriate addressees, arrangements should be made for a 'responsible person' on the ground to telephone the departure time to the Helpdesk;

(b) FIS Exceptionally, the FISO at the ACC will accept departure times on RTF from pilots who have departed from aerodromes where there is no ATSU, or it is outside the hours of operation. The pilot is to request the FIS to pass the departure time to the AFPEx Helpdesk through which the FPL was submitted, for input. ...

I would have thought that FIS would be fairly well switched on to the last bit now, but your experience indicates at least the potential for their misunderstanding.

IO540

31st Jul 2008, 16:18

The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots

I couldn't agree more.

Somebody in the system seems to have dropped the ball.

There is however a remaining issue with AFPEX which affects IFR pilots: you need to have internet connectivity the whole time up to (nearly) departure, in case a slot gets issued for your flight plan. Normally the tower would get a copy of the slot message and they would advise you but you need to have the radio on all the time (be sitting in the plane) on the tower frequency. This is why many people will continue to use homebriefing.com because they send you SMS messages for slots etc.

And mobile internet access to AFPEX is a major problem because of the ~ 5MB java download which is enforced on every login. On GPRS, this makes the service nearly unusable (of the order of 30 mins download) and while it would work on 3G, if you are on PAYG the cost would be about £20-£50 just to log in. Only contract data users with monthly allowances (these are not usual when abroad, roaming) will get around this, though of course at a price paid indirectly. AFPEX should get rid of that completely pointless download.

I will use AFPEX for flight plans on which there is no possibility of a slot (VFR, or IFR wholly OCAS), and use Homebriefing for the rest.

SwanFIS

31st Jul 2008, 16:22

Just checked with Heathrow FBU and also the AFPEx people at Swanwick and there should have been no problem sending a DEP on your flight.

Our instructions on FIS are to pass all airborne times (wherever they have been filed) to Heathrow FBU for fpl activation. The FBU say they have been very busy but there have been no technical problems stopping them sending DEP messages.

If the FISO is unable to get through to the FBU the AFPEx team will happily send DEPs. They also report no system problems recently stopping them doing so.

I am back at work tomorrow and will check further but at the moment it seems like FISO / pilot / FBU / AFPEx misunderstanding.

Edit to add - If anybody else experiences problems getting London Info to activate your plan could you send me a pm with c/s, date, dep airfield and time and I will endevour to ascertain why.

MANAGP

31st Jul 2008, 16:27

IO540

I'd ring the Afpex helpdesk every 5 mins to check for a slot improvement. They'll get the idea eventually!

MANAGP

31st Jul 2008, 16:31

SwanFIS

All a bit conveluted! I had great problems geting a DEP signal sent for a homebriefing.com flightplan about 2 months ago. The FIS controller was helpful but didn't have any idea what I was talking about.
Surely a terminal at London/Scottish FIS is the way to go, not calling folk on the phone!

If the UK came up with a dogs b**-* system it would be great and we'd have Johnny Foreigner queuing up to use it, as it is now we're all emigrating!

SwanFIS

31st Jul 2008, 16:45

MANAGP

Some FISOs are not aware of the many ways that fpls can be filed these days. I for one had not heard about homebriefing until a month or so ago. I will circulate some information about this at work tomorrow which will hopefully stop this problem arising.

In the meantime as I have said above, any problems pm me.

As for an AFPEx terminal, believe it or not that would be more of a hassle than phoning.

MANAGP

31st Jul 2008, 17:41

SwanFIS
Thanks for your input. Have a look at Homebriefing.com it's really quite good!

bookworm

31st Jul 2008, 18:04

I had great problems geting a DEP signal sent for a homebriefing.com flightplan about 2 months ago.

That's a different issue.

For AFPEx, there's a clearly set out procedure. FISO contacts AFPEx helpdesk, and it's the AFPEx team that find the FPL and send the DEP to the appropriate addressees.

If you file a VFR FPL via another method, whether homebriefing or your friendly local ATC, neither London Info nor Heathrow FBU would easily know who you sent the FPL to, and therefore who to send the DEP message to, would they? IFR is easier as it just goes to IFPS.

IO540

31st Jul 2008, 18:23

I think AFPEX is actually very good but one needs to use it for what it is good at. The huge majority of flight plans filed by UK GA are VFR ones - either going abroad (mandatory) or used in flight training or when flying in remote areas or just wanting to file one for fun. Previously, NATS had a large # of people whose time was spent mostly taking these by fax or phone or some other system, and entering them into the AFTN while adding addressing information out of some VFR addressing book (AIUI). Regardless of what one thinks on the subject of what services should be provided to VFR GA which already enjoys freedom from route charges, it was IMHO plainly only a matter of time before somebody decided this staffing is not an efficient way to spend money.

What I think NATS did wrong is that they delivered a very powerful tool which could be mis-used (not that I have tried but from what I see it certainly can be) and they then had to put the silly security around it.

If they had simply created a two-tier user base (one being airfields/ATC and the other being aircraft owners) and on the latter they limited the access only to specified aircraft tail numbers (which for most people would be their own plane, or a few others if it's a school) they would not have needed the security.

And for VFR, AFPEX works fine. You get no ACK message so that is no different to the old VFR flight plan filing systems where - despite having filed it via some apparently friendly human interface - the only way to check if it actually got anywhere was to telephone the departure or arrival aerodromes! That's just the way VFR flight plans work.

And IIRC the DOF/ parameter was never properly supported so if you tried to file a FP say 2 days in advance it would quite likely never get anywhere. Homebriefing incidentally deals with DOF/ correctly, by retaining the FP in its computer and injecting it into the AFTN only on the relevant day (AFAIK).

It is for IFR, admittedly a much smaller pilot population, that AFPEX is potentially a slightly problematic tool, due to the lack of a slot reporting mechanism. It is however super in the way you get back the ACK or the 'fail' messages - in just seconds, allowing you to resubmit fast; a lot faster than with Homebriefing where the filing can take a few minutes. However, with good route generation tools this is not a problem.

If you file a VFR FPL via another method, whether homebriefing or your friendly local ATC, neither London Info nor Heathrow FBU would easily know who to send the DEP message to, would they? IFR is easier as it just goes to IFPS.I am sure that this one has been solved, because Homebriefing has been around a few years now, and I know for sure a lot of users fly out of strips. Would the DEP message not go to the same addresses as the original FP? I reckon sending it to the destination only would actually do.

What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?

TotalBeginner

31st Jul 2008, 18:46

What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?

The FPL doesn't get deleted. But, the French probably wouldn't initiate overdue action if you had to ditch in the channel.

IO540

31st Jul 2008, 19:11

If the FP got sent to the destination (only), wouldn't they realise if you vanished somewhere?

Or is overdue action done only by enroute FIS offices?

What exactly does DEP do, on a VFR flight plan?

A and C

31st Jul 2008, 21:27

As of yet I have had no problems having used the system two or three times a week as I commute to work in France.

Most of the plans have been VFR, with one or two IFR.

Totalbeginner

I would have continued the flight as NATS own the problem if they cant activate a FPL in the system they have set up!

TotalBeginner

31st Jul 2008, 21:29

If the FP got sent to the destination (only), wouldn't they realise if you vanished somewhere?

Or is overdue action done only by enroute FIS offices?

What exactly does DEP do, on a VFR flight plan?

This is how I understand it... The departure message is sent to the destinaton aerodrome. Their AFTN system interrogates the message and adds the EET from the FPL to the departure time, giving an ETA. If the aircraft fails to arrive within 30mins of the ETA, overdue action is initiated. If the aircraft diverts, the alternate aerodrome must send an ARR message to the original destination to alert them that O/D action is not necessary as the aircraft has landed safely elsewhere.

I see your point. What is the purpose of distributing the DEP message to all of the addressees? Why not just send it to the original destination?

SwanFIS

1st Aug 2008, 06:41

TB

If only life in aviation really was that automated :hmm: The AFTN is purely a method of transmitting and receiving messages of various types DEP, ARR, CNL, CHG etc.

A DEP is sent when you leave and your fpl elapsed time will be manually added to it by ATC at your destination to calculate your arrival time. It is this time that ATC use to base overdue action on. Some airfields will work of the fpl estimate even if they do not receive a DEP message so it is important to keep the fpl details up to date with CHG, DLA or CNL messages.

S-Works

1st Aug 2008, 06:48

The original intention certainly was to make it a tool for GA pilots. If you remember, about 18 months ago quite a few of the regular GA flight-plan filers got a telephone call asking what we'd want from a tool, what browsers we used, etc. I'd be surprised if you weren't one of the people they called.

I certainly remember telling them at the time that it would be useless for me unless it was usable on the move from a mobile-phone browser. I'm not surprised that got particular requirement didn't make it to the final specs, but it was certainly always intended for use by GA pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have been ringing us asking for our views.
\
Yes I remember that but I don't think what they delivered here was in line with that original survey. As I recall what people wanted was a simple web page that they could complete and hit send that would result in a flight plan going into the system with a simple ACK, maybe an SMS or something. What we have with AFPx is a full FBO tool that is beyond the needs of the small aviatior in my humble opinion. I find it useful for airways flight as it gives direct access to IFPS but for VFR it is overly complex.

Just my 2 cents.

TotalBeginner

1st Aug 2008, 07:02

If only life in aviation really was that automated The AFTN is purely a method of transmitting and receiving messages of various types DEP, ARR, CNL, CHG etc.

Mmm. At the airport where I work we use Stonefield systems. It doesn't seem to have any problems reading FPLs DEPs SAMs etc...

IO540

1st Aug 2008, 07:15

As I recall what people wanted was a simple web page that they could complete and hit send

It's been around for a few years - homebriefing.com

But it has a huge massive problem which makes it unattractive to 99.9% of UK GA pilots.

It costs money! A Brit will never pay for something which he can get for nothing, simply by wasting half an hour hanging around the airport doing it manually using some terminal in the briefing room. If there is a briefing room.

Euro 4 per flight plan filed, approx. This is so much more than the pilot spends on avgas on the flight he is filing.

:)

But seriously, a "simple web page" (with no login security) was never an option because any old moron could have used it to spam the system with thousands of flight plans, starting with a Concorde flight from Goodwood to Bembridge and then moving onto more serious stuff. This is where a bit of imagination comes in: if you validate a list of permitted tail numbers, you avoid the need for security completely.

bookworm

1st Aug 2008, 08:12

I am sure that this one has been solved, because Homebriefing has been around a few years now, and I know for sure a lot of users fly out of strips. Would the DEP message not go to the same addresses as the original FP? I reckon sending it to the destination only would actually do.

It's not what is supposed to happen. From PANS-ATM:

11.4.2.2.6 DEPARTURE (DEP) MESSAGES
11.4.2.2.6.1 Unless otherwise prescribed on the basis of
regional air navigation agreements, a DEP message shall be
transmitted immediately after the departure of an aircraft for
which basic flight plan data have been previously distributed.
11.4.2.2.6.2 The DEP message shall be transmitted by
the ATS unit serving the departure aerodrome to all recipients
of basic flight plan data.

It's this that I think might lead to a reluctance to send a DEP message relating to a FPL originated by someone else. But if you specifically request that a DEP is sent to your destination, that doesn't mean that the request would necessarily be refused.

What exactly happens if you get airborne to say France without a DEP message? Does the FP get deleted after a certain time? And what if the DEP was sent to the destination only? If there is auto deletion, how is this managed - do the FPs get stored on some computer?

I'm not an expert on this, but I think your experience with IFPS misleads you a little when it comes to AFTN. IFPS has a very detailed and published set of procedures for dealing with FPLs and related messages. But for general VFR flight planning, they're just messages. In the same way that you have a local procedure for storing or deleting your emails, recipients will have local procedures for dealing with such messages. Bulldog clips and drawing pins are still a popular part of the information infrastructure.

The key questions are, if a DEP message is not sent for a flight to France for which a FPL has been filed:

a) am I in breach of regulation and likely to get into trouble in France?
and
b) will someone come looking for me if I ditch in the Channel?

My guesses would be "probably not" and "maybe".

IO540

1st Aug 2008, 10:01

Bulldog clips and drawing pins are still a popular part of the information infrastructure.

I believe this is how the DOF/ parameter is implemented on VFR flight plans :) And this is why they sometimes get lost in batches. I once had three vanish in one go - all had a DOF/ on them.

IMHO, the reason why you can depart without a flight plan on your way to le Touquet, and just bluff your way along, is precisely because of this - so many get lost anyway that there is an informal system for ignoring them.

IFR is different - all computerised.

brisl

1st Aug 2008, 11:52

Made my first attempt at using AFPEX for a VFR flight from a UK regional airport to the channel islands last weekend. All properly addressed as far as I could tell. Result was a worried phone call from the departure ATSU, just as I was walking out to the aircraft, because they thought my plan "might not have been properly addressed".

It turns out that the FPL message they received via AFPEX did not show the list of other addressees, hence their concern. They thought they were the only ones to have received the message. I reassured them by reading the address list from my printed copy of the FPL message.

In the event the flight proceeded just fine, with en-route and destination controllers having the details, so presumably they managed to activate the plan, but it seems the system still has a few wrinkles.

IO540

1st Aug 2008, 16:13

It turns out that the FPL message they received via AFPEX did not show the list of other addressees, hence their concern. They thought they were the only ones to have received the message. I reassured them by reading the address list from my printed copy of the FPL message.

I got this too, departing from a towered airport.

What seems to happen is that the tower does not receive what they call the supplementary info i.e. the # of dinghies, colour, etc.

The tower is also unable for some reason to forward the flight plan to the other places - not realising that they don't need to because you have already addressed it to those places.

The tower was also using AFPEX and they said they are new to it and are still sussing it out.

Mind you, I got them very suprised when I started using homebriefing.com - they could not understand how I was sitting on the tarmac under their nose, while a flight plan for me popped up on their printer, from Vienna!!

For farm strip departures where no human help with an AFPEX terminal can be arranged, the need to inject the DEP message into the system could be done in various clever ways. Somebody could set up a PC running the AFPEX terminal, with a GSM modem connected to it, and you would send out an SMS message to the modem which would cause a DEP message to be entered. This would be quite tacky to program I reckon, due to the need to fake mouse clicks and keystrokes on the java AFPEX terminal software but it's obviously possible. Any anybody's AFPEX terminal could be used - doesn't have to be yours - because there is no tail number restriction.

jabberwok

2nd Aug 2008, 03:17

What seems to happen is that the tower does not receive what they call the supplementary info i.e. the # of dinghies, colour, etc.

They won't. Supplementary information is just that and is only sent on receipt of an RQS message.

With the old system the departure ATC unit usually has the printed plan in their mitts and are therefore used to seeing the Item 19 information. If the destination airfield gets worried about your lack of arrival one of their first actions is to sent an RQS message - the departure airfield then sends this as a SPL message.

What I am unsure about is the mechanism in use with AFPEx. If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...

-------------------

The AFPEx system is good but it gives you a full blown terminal and the same facilities as any ATC unit. It's complexity can be confusing - especially for VFR flights - so I applaud pilots who have got to grips with it. ATC have a lot of training in flight planning and they process enough plans to learn the nuts and bolts of the system (and the foibles of VFR addressing). Having said that addressing had become so complex by the 1980's that the publication of CAP550 was somewhat of a life saver for all of us.

Although it is possible for pilots to learn the ropes by reading the documents (especially CAP694) it is a lot to wade through before you can bang your first plan into the system. Initial reading may lead to more questions than answers especially if you don't have a friendly ATC guy handy to bounce your queries off.

Purely my own view but I suspect AFPEx will work better at unit level rather than an individual level - say an Ops Dept or a flying club. At least there is someone there to send DEP messages or receive incoming messages like SPL's or slot revisions. As AFPEx is similar to an AFTN station it works best if manned. I'm willing to be corrected on this by SwanFIS. :}

bookworm

2nd Aug 2008, 08:13

What I am unsure about is the mechanism in use with AFPEx. If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...

That was one of the first questions I asked the AFPEx team. The answer is in AIP SUP 7/2008 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/sup/EG_SUP_2008_07_en.pdf).

2.7 The AFPEx Helpdesk monitors the user mailboxes and in the interests of safety will respond to ‘SS’ priority messages if they are unacknowledged in a user mailbox for longer than 1 minute. In the case of an RQS (Request for Supplementary information) message being received, the Helpdesk staff will respond to the request on behalf of the AFPEx user if no action has been taken by them. A message is sent to the Mailbox confirming that this has been done.

IO540

2nd Aug 2008, 08:22

If you are sending plans from home then how does the departure airfield get hold of the SPL data? It's no use sending an RQS message to the originating address because you aren't there...

Another thing is that the departure airfield could close before your due arrival time, so the RQS would have failed under the old system too. The entire flight plan must have been stored somewhere - in case somebody was doing e.g. a night flight.

flyingfemme

2nd Aug 2008, 17:08

I tried AFPex last month - two IFR flightplans at low-level across 3 countries in europe. Weather and tech problems meant we had to make changes and delays - this was a nightmare. We usually print the ACK message and carry that in the aircraft but I (eventually) found that AFPex requires you type in field numbers to make changes :ugh:
There is also no list of your flightplans that you can pick from.
Impractical and obscure; I've gone straight back to homebriefing which is, IMNSHO, well designed and user friendly. Worth the cost.
A private Kingair driver of my acquaintance didn't get as far as actually filing a flightplan before rushing back to the Austrian offering.

jabberwok

2nd Aug 2008, 22:27

Another thing is that the departure airfield could close before your due arrival time, so the RQS would have failed under the old system too.

True - but we used to send the SPL data for all aircraft still airborne after our closing time. I suspect this was the exception rather than the rule - we enforced it just after one such incident.

IO540

3rd Aug 2008, 06:09

we used to send the SPL data for all aircraft still airborne after our closing time. I suspect this was the exception rather than the rule - we enforced it just after one such incident.

How interesting! This suggests that a VFR FP is really not stored anywhere but exists only as the (transient) message. I was always told that in case of going missing, your flight plan is retrieved; it sounds like it was not actually "retrieved" from storage but actually a message would be sent to the departure aerodrome asking for the full copy.

Who did you address the message to?

brisl

3rd Aug 2008, 09:07

So if, as seems likely from the posts on this thread, VFR AFPEx flight plans are regularly causing difficulty/confusion for UK departure airfields/controllers, has anybody any experience of using AFPEx for a European departure, inbound to the UK? I.e., how do, say French, towers get on with this system?

On a second point: has anybody tried using AFPEx from an internet cafe or such like as suggested in the introductory blurb from AFPEx? My experience is that most internet cafes block the JNLP launcher so you can't use the system unless you carry your own computer abroad - and then you need to find WiFi access because using a mobile phone for internet access is either too slow or very expensive due to the big download.

jabberwok

3rd Aug 2008, 18:36

Who did you address the message to?

To quote the manual:

Ensure that SPL details are passed to London ATCC Supervisor for all non airways flights that have submitted flight plans and are likely to remain airborne at close of watch.

Things may have changed in the last five years of computerisation but your paper copy of the FPL as handed to ATC was sent over the AFTN in the following condensed format:

FF EGZYIFPS
220835 EGxxZPZX
(FPL-XYZ803-IS
-DH8D/M-S/C
-EGAC1330
-N0260F150 B3 HON DCT WCO LOREL2A
-EGGW0120 EGSS
-REG/GJECD)

The rest of the FPL details remained on the paper copy unless required and that copy would be stored for three months. If anyone needed the additional data such as Item 19 then it would be necessary to contact the ATS unit at which the plan had been filed - and this may not necessarily be the point of departure.

With AFPEx your complete plan (including Item 19) is input into the PC so I presume the system stores all the data but only sends the essential bit above. At least the additional data is more easily available than via the normal FPL submission process.

IanSeager

3rd Aug 2008, 20:32

So if, as seems likely from the posts on this thread, VFR AFPEx flight plans are regularly causing difficulty/confusion for UK departure airfields/controllers, has anybody any experience of using AFPEx for a European departure, inbound to the UK? I.e., how do, say French, towers get on with this system?

Filed a few times from the lobby at Le Touquet using their free wifi. Each time I've walked to the aeroplane a minute or two after sending and the tower people have known about the flight plan.

In short, no problems so far

Ian
PS I also file outbound from a strip. London Info have always 'opened' the flightplan on request.

TotalBeginner

3rd Aug 2008, 22:13

Is it normal for Java to download the application each time I click "log-in"? I find this a bit of a pain, or is there something wrong with my browser settings?

IO540

4th Aug 2008, 06:36

It's not normal, of course. The download should take place only if you have an obsolete version on the client machine. This mandatory download seems to be a deliberate action by AFPEX developers - my guess is that they did it for extra 'security'.

There is a thread on flyer.co.uk where somebody has found a way to make the download work only when required, by editing the properties of the java object, but the edits will be lost when it's downloaded again.

The other solution is to never close the terminal application (but merely log out of it) which means the only way to shut down your PC is by using the hibernation mode (which I don't use because bluetooth drivers often don't come out of hibernation properly - windoze does need a reboot regularly).

I guess this is one problem with java - you never know when the vendor is going to hit you with an updated version, and if you are on a good 3G connection you could blow away £XXX within minutes.