Filser TRT800 Transponder - problems ... ?

[PH-UKU]

I've just been a good little citizen and gone and got myself a Mode S Transponder - a Filser TRT800 to be precise - I believe several hundreds of which are already in service throughout Europe.

Except there seems to be a problem and the Mod has so far not been approved by the CAA.


Word is that they 'sometimes' don't respond in busy TMA environments.

Anyone else got one fitted/approved, and anyone else got any problems or tales to tell ?

Mr Not Happy :ugh:

[Lurking123]

I have one - no probs with the CAA.

[A and C]

The unit has the reputation for not being the best at that end of the market. I would recomend the Becker as being the best buy.

[L-Band]

You would have to raise a Mod for the installation of this unit, do not assume that Filser would supply an STC to install this unit, the only company that cover most single engine aircraft with an STC is Trig.

L

[BEXIL160]

Have had a TRT800A since May. No probs.... so far. Friends in TC tell me it works fine...... so far

rgds BEX

[tangovictor]

i have the Filser transponder and radio, both work prefectly, the guys at
LX avionics Ltd. Radio transceivers, Mode S transponders, variometers, flight recorders (http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/)
are very helpful,

[PH-UKU]

We have raised a mod on it (it's going into a 172), and it is here that the CAA are raising issues. According to my friendly avionics engineer it may be something to do with the power supply in the unit.

BEX - what type is your unit installed in ?

Just say the CAA refused the mod (say, on the grounds of the unit being unreliable), does this mean that all other similar model TRT800s would have to be removed or returned to manufacturer for adjustment ? And would this apply across Europe ?

tangovictor - that's where I got it, through LX.

[Radarspod]

TRT800 is undergoing investigations by the the manufacturer and Eurocontrol regarding performance issues, following negative experiences by a number of ANSPs in Europe. It could be that the CAA are holding off because of that.

[BEXIL160]

My TRT800A is in my very old, but cherished, Cessna 150.

The EASA mod paperwork (all 36 pages and 300 Euros) was done by the chap who fitted it for me, and the unit supplied by LX avioniocs, above.

Rgds BEX

[jonkil]

My TRT800 works excellent.... In a permit aircraft so no CAA issues.
Service from LX avionics is absolutely fantastic.

Mate had a problem with his when a poor install saw the co-axial being departed from the antenna and got running high SWR and popped the output side of the transmitter. LX directed him to send it to Germany, 7 days later and a small bill for 48 euro and all was back in situ and working fine.

Good experience here, and works fine. Also, its small profile is excellent and is one of the very few units with the encoder built into the actual transponder itself.

Jon

[PPRuNe Radar]

:}I've just been a good little citizen and gone and got myself a Mode S Transponder - a Filser TRT800 to be precise - I believe several hundreds of which are already in service throughout Europe.

Oh no ..... you've succumbed :sad:

[Radarspod]

http://www.avionik.de/Grafix/PDF/EASA_AD_2008-0158_1.pdf

RS

[BIGJ91]

We were also good little boys and fitted a TRS80 in our C-150 when the old mode A only one went unreliable. It seems we are affected by the AD so we're going to have to placard the aircraft and insert a note in the POH basically saying unless they say it's OK do not fly into airspace that requires a transponder and is mode S equipped because your shiny new mode S transponder is a piece of junk. :ugh::ugh:
Anyone know what airspace in the UK apart from Heathrow Zone is currently affected?

[Cusco]

I should have thought that all people who have bought a Filser Mode S would be entitled to a full refund including fitting costs as the unit is clearly unfit for purpose...........

Cusco

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I should have thought that all people who have bought a Filser Mode S would be entitled to a full refund including fitting costs as the unit is clearly unfit for purpose...........
Better than that, they should pay for the cost of putting you in the position you would have been in had they not broken the contract, which a reasonable judge (I'm sure they all are!) might agree was that they should pay for you get a different unit from a different manufacturer supplied and fitted.

[Nipper2]

Good point Cusco.... But the question is who should pay? The story is a very complicated one.

In essence the Filser/Funkwerk transponder was approved against a published EASA standard and as far as I know, still complies with the standard.

The guys who designed built and installed the ground-based kit also have equipment that complies with the appropriate standards. But the two bits of kit still the two sometime have difficulty talking to one another. Something fishy with the standards (that by common consent were not the best written ever) you might think.

Don't be too quick to judge when you don't know all the facts. It could be that Filser/Funkwerk have a good case against the authorities.

[jxk]

This sounds like a good case for waiting for a couple of years before I install the mode S kit. I still can't understand how mode S is going to be useful until all flying vehicles have it. And, what advantages are there if I can't get a service from ATC or see other other aircraft?

[sternone]

A flight club in my area installed like 5 of them. They are crap.

There were so many problems with the unit itself, like rebooting in flight, resetting to 7000 automatic in flight etc... they fixed most things in the last months, but now you can't use them in Germany anymore.

If you give peanuts you get monkeys

[Cusco]

This sounds like a good case for waiting for a couple of years before I install the mode S kit. I still can't understand how mode S is going to be useful until all flying vehicles have it. And, what advantages are there if I can't get a service from ATC or see other other aircraft?

In a couple of years time without Mode S you won't be able even to leave these shores for a spot of European Touring.

We took the 'head in the sand' approach with Mode S only a few years ago and installed a mode A/C replacement when our ancient TXPDR went t*ts up. Mode S seemed so far away and so expensive then...........

So now we'll be dumping a pretty new (in aviation terms) Mode A/C Garmin in favour of mode S.

All this Filsher cr*p has certainly steered me back towards Garmin..............

Cusco

[jxk]

Yeap - I like the Garmin kit but would be interested to know how good the TRIG unit is; this is my preferred option as it would slot straight into my KT76A (+ AK 350 encoder) position.

[steveking]

My brother has a TRT 600 in his Ikarus C42 "permit aircraft". It's about 3 years old now and has performed without any problems.

I recently had to install a new transponder into my RV6 and chose the garmin 328, fantastic bit of kit.

I have noticed that the LAA won't approve any further radio installation at the moment with a filser transponder, lets hope they sort it out soon.

[Rod1]

“In a couple of years time without Mode S you won't be able even to leave these shores for a spot of European Touring.”

That has not yet been decided, and appears unlikely.

IF I have to upgrade I will probably go for the TRIG. All the reports I have come across are good and it is a plug compatible for my BK. Whatever you do follow the CAA advice and avoid the Garmin 328 or you run a big risk of having to scrap it when phase 3 comes in.

Rod1

[steveking]

Rod 1 your probally right I was told that the 328 doesn't have ADS-B capability but also if and when that ever comes in for europe could be anyones guess. If you want to play it safe the Garmin 330 does it all. Don't think there's even that much difference in price I payed £1500 for the 328 fitted and I think the 330 was another £300. I did look at the trig and I'm sure it performs well but maybe it's me but it just has that A level electronics class look.

[smitn05]

Off the back of the EASA AD 2008-0158 comes this AIC:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/INTERNET%20TEXT%20AIC%2020080915F933AttachmenAICTextForEASAA D2008-0158.pdf

Note that it is more onerous than the AD (which was little more than a placarding exercise), mandating that the unit cannot be used in class A & C, Class D & E (under IFR), above FL100 and in NTMZ (and should even be switched off whilst VFR in class D/E).

As a Garmin dealer I have to say ...... "Always thought those boxes looked a bit iffy" ;)

[Fitter2]

As both a Garmin and Funkwerk dealer, there has been virtually no difference in reliability until the present situation, where the Funkwerk units, designed, tested and approved by EASA and EUROCOM have problems in areas of high interrogation density. So much for standards.

After testing modifications and flight trials there is an EASA approved modification, following which serviced units will have the AD withdrawn, a modified AD is in the pipeline.

http://www.funkwerk-avionics.com/cms/upload/Presse/AD_ServiceInfo_05_E.pdf

[Rod1]

Just to clarify, the only mode s transponder which I am aware of which will not comply with phase 3 is the garmin 328. There is no timescale for phase 3, but as I would expect 10 years plus from a new transponder I will get one which does comply. The TRT800 with the fix will be on my list but is not as easy to fit as the TRIG if you have an existing BK mode c. No plan to fit mode s for the time being though. We will know the result of the second consultation soon.:ok:

Rod1

[Nipper2]

Rod

You seem to know better than most what is going on. I fly from a strip in Class D airspace. In simple terms do I need to do anything to keep me flying next year?

If the answer is yes, I'm pretty much settled on the Filser unit. I have a 2.25" hole pre-cut in my panel and all the wiring and static system already installed. Assuming Filser get the unit sorted is this a sensible course of action?

Is the alternative Becker unit any better/worse? It needs a separate encoder so ultimately costs more and has more wiring (which is more to go wrong).

[smitn05]

When considering an installation of Mode S, be aware that the current line of thinking from the CAA is that an automated means of Air/Gnd mode switching being required. (TGL 13 Rev 1 specifies a means of selecting GND mode on the ground although not specifically automatic)

With retractables that would normally mean squat switch connection, and whilst at present the CAA allow fixed gear to be approved without automated Air/Gnd they are considering insisting that all fits have automated switching.

This means that even the 'direct slot in' replacements need some modification to existing looms.

I guess if your installer already has a pre-approved series mod for the aircraft type they could get round this but otherwise expect to need squat switch wiring :-)

Regards

N

[wigglyamp]

Becker produce a miniature encoder which plugs directly onto the rear connector of the transponder, so no additional wiring is required. Of course, if you have an existing encoder, you can still use it.

The only problem with Becker is getting hold of units - can be up to 8 weeks even when buying direct from the factory as an approved dealer!

[Fitter2]

Hi Nipper

the Becker and Funkwerk (ex-Filser) are both good 57mm panel mount instruments, and easy to install. The Becker can have a 'dongle' encoder which minimises its wiring; the Funkwerk has a built in encoder so is even easier (2 wires, + volts and ground with a supplied wired connector/code unit, and static presure).

The certification standard requires the 24bit code to be 'fixed to the airframe' (the wording is longer and more convoluted, but means effectively that). The Becker has another dongle you chain to the aircraft and unplug if you change the set; the Funkwerk has a bit of Flash Memory in the plug at the back.

Funkwerk is a bit smaller and lighter, and currently more cost effective (once the AD business is sorted out). I suspect to keep market share it will stay that way. Also, UK dealers have stock, Becker is longer delivery - not a problem if you plan ahead.

Interesting that the CAA seem to want to insist on an extra requirement (air/ground switching) not required in the rest of Europe. Remind me why we all come under a common EASA system?

[Rod1]

Assuming VFR flight (I am not up to date on IFR).

You will not need a transponder at all next year to fly from your strip.

The Filser is, as has been said, lighter, cheaper and has a built in encoder.

I have not come across the air/ground-switching requirement at all. Is this IFR or all fits? I do not see how this could be done in some F/G aircraft. It was not mentioned at any of the CAA meetings I attended.

Rod1

[javelin]

We have a Filser 800A but aren't flying yet. It's been back for one mod and after an email this afternoon, Adams came back very swiftly to say that a mod is in production and would be implemented as soon as released.

With good customer service like this, I can't complain - all comapnies have snags, it's how they address and fix them that counts :ok:

[Nipper2]

Rod

Sorry to be a pain, but will I need a transponder to fly through other class D airspace from next year.

And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?

[Rod1]

”Sorry to be a pain, but will I need a transponder to fly through other class D airspace from next year.”

In the UK you will not need one unless the area is designated a TMZ (Transponder Mandatory Zone). The Scottish TMA above a certain altitude and the London TMA for now, not aware of any others coming in.

Whilst you do not need mode s for class D transit I am sure you would get easier transit with it.

“And if anyone can tell me how I will fit an air-ground switch to a Tipsy Nipper please let me know. Are they having a laugh?”

As I said it would be very hard in some aircraft. The LAA will approve a standard installation without the switch and you do not need CAA mod approval so I would not worry about it.

I have mixed memories of my Nipper ownership (G-AXLI)

Rod1

[smitn05]

As I mentioned in the previous post the CAA have said F/G is ok for the time being but all retractables have to have automated A/G switching.

I have argued that the wording of TGL13 do not specify "Automated" and tried to get a mod approved stating it pilots responsibilty to selectr GND mode but got that squarely refused LOL

Cant even use a 429 output from a GNS series anymore (if installing a GTX330) because of the incomplete DAPS and the need for an FMS to tell the pilot this (and subsequent MAJOR mod).

Now im rambling .... but it winds me UP LOL

[Nipper2]

Funkwerk/Filser have just issued a service letter (http://www.funkwerk-avionics.com/cms/upload/Presse/AD_ServiceInfo_07_E.pdf) that paves the way for these units to be put back into full service again.

Reading the last paragraph of the letter it does appear to confirm that there are problems with the certification standard.

Presumably some EASA ADs to follow.

(I did experience some difficulty in downloading the letter and had to follow a link to here (http://www.funkwerk-avionics.com/cms/front_content.php?idcat=57&idartlang=245&DetailsFor=292&OldParentId=35), right click and "save as" before opening the PDF file).

[Radarspod]

depends if you consider a manufacturer's interpretation of standard a problem with the standard or not :ok:

[Fitter2]

Since EuroroCom (the certification authority) agree that TRT800s are fully compliant with the published standard, I believe Funkwerk/Filsers's interpretation was reasonable.

I also understand the published standard is now revised, since in congested traffic, mixed Mode situations some responses are missed.

All due to the standard being based on computer simulation, which oddly enough is what the CAA's Mode S consultation proposals are based on.

Makes you think (unless you work for the CAA............)