November 2008 - OBA. Anyone else going?

[matthewB]

Hi All,

I'm planning on going to Ormond Beach Aviation in November to complete my JAA PPL and was wondering if anyone else on here was going to be doing the same. Might be good to hook up and that.

I was considering Naples-air-center and Orlando flight training too, but Naples haven't replied to my emails and I've heard some horror stories about Orlando.

Cheers
Matt

[smalltown]

check into the stories about OBA

[TicketyBlue]

Make sure you get a copy of the rental agreement before you part with any cash or make travel plans.

[benish]

Im considering going to Florida to do a PPL in November. But I aint sure where to go!

Can anyone tell me the best place to do a PPL over there? OBA and OFT are looking like good ones to me but....

Cheers

[nh2301]

Go to an FAA school and get an FAA certificate. More choice of schools, better quality schools, better quality training, better certificate at the end of it, better holiday and less money.

[Warrior2]

OBA :ok:

Dont listen to the stories.....

most of them are from people who didnt pass the ppl

[matthewB]

I've been doing so much research into JAA PPL schools in the states and they all have mixed feeling. Some are great, others are bad.
There are a fair few people who have posted videos on OBA on youtube etc and it all looks above board.
Accommodation looks decent, and the planes look good too.

Can anyone who's been to OBA list out the faults or the good points?

Cheers
Matt

[waveydavey]

I think saying close to 100% pass first time isn't quite right. I went to OBA and did pass, however while I was there I saw 4 people that I can recall having to stay for longer as they were not at a satisfactory level, and 2 left without the PPL as they had to return home. When I was there all of the instructors were very professional and were not rushing students through the training.

During my time there I was happy with my treatment and training. I wasn't ripped off and as far as I was aware the friends I made there were happy with the place too.
The accommodation was good, as long as you don't mind sharing a room. You can pay more for your own room I think.

There are tales of woe from most training establishments.. some are deserved, others less so.

These threads are more helpful if the good or bad comments are from those who have direct experience of the place... not those who know someone whos uncles best mates dad went there once.

[matthewB]

Final question on OBA - they are asking for all the cash up front which I know is a big no no.
I'm going to put it on credit card so that I'm covered to an extent but does anyone think I can argue the case and release funds as I fly?

Matt

[camel toe]

Why would you trust anyone who wants all the money up front. A deposit should be sufficient for any operator.

Ask yourself why they want all the money up front? If a school wanted all the money up front I would advise you to walk away.

Of course each to their own and it does take all sorts to make the world go round, I'm just offering up some advice and my opinion.

Good luck and kind regards

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

[Kengineer-130]

I went for 6 weeks in October 2005, had a fantastic instructor and was happy with the school, good ground training as well, people who struggled treated it as a holiday not as an intensive course.

My tips? Book as much time as you can, I planned to do my PPL and 25hours, with the 25 hours extra being flexible if the PPL took longer than expected. I managed to just get it all in, the PPL took 4 weeks instead of 3 due to lots of high winds where I lost solo time due to down days, so be prepared for delays beyond anyones control.

Also, get as much groundschool learning in as you can before you go, you should be able to nail human factors, aircraft general and air law within 3-4 days of getting there, leaving the "difficult" ones, nav, met, aircraft performance and radio telephony until you get the (very good) ground school evening breif and the flying experience to make it all easy to understand.

If anyone wants any advice feel free to PM me thier number and I will give you a call :ok:

Go, work hard, play hard and you will be fine :ok:

[wnjmurphy]

I'm possibly going to be out on the East Coast doing 25 hours. Undecided as to whether I will re-vist OBA or not. This is likely to be November 08.

As someone who had a 99% positive experience, give me a shout via PM.

There are horror stories, then there are stories like mine, where I went out, passed the groundschool, did the flying (I chose to spend 4 weeks, not 3) and went home with all my approval documention safely sealed in me bag!

[civil aviation]

Just about to buy a new (fitted) kitchen from a plc and, guess what?, they want all the money up front- months before the fitting date.
Booked a holiday and had to pay weeks before we are due to go.

As others have pointed out, you could pay-as-you-go but because you are not on a package you wouldn't get the package price. Seems fair enough- you cannot expect to have it both ways. Also, you didn't have to pay anything before you arrived there so they were booking your time, instructor, accommodation etc. with no deposit or other security if you didn't turn up.

Sadly, there are customers who are crooks, dreamers, liars, simpletons, tossers etc. and some are wannabes (see examples on this forum) so it shouldn't surprise anyone that FTO's offering an incredibly cheap deal will protect themselves against damage, drop-outs, fraud, theft etc.

[matthewB]

You're right civil aviation, I completely understand why they're charging upfront. If you offer a really good deal and invest resources and time and some time waster doesn't show then you're out of pocket.

For what it's worth, OBA are the only school in the US whose email correspondence is on the ball. I've mailed others a few times and received nothing or very little in the way of help! From that, and from talking to other experienced members on this forum (many thanks) I've totally decided to go with them this November.

I've planned 4 weeks and really hope to get it all signed sealed and delivered in that time. I've read that November is a pretty quiet month weather wise so no nasty surprises hopefully.

As for groundschool, I've taken the decision to complete all my exams before I go. I really want to concentrate on the flying and as it is it's going to be a push. I started on air law but fell asleep :) and am now on much more intersting stuff - principles of flight.

Thanks for all the honest feedback on here.
Matt

[matthewB]

Awesome dhblewis, I'll see you there.

I say that, but as yet I've not received my I-20 from OBA and haven't scanned my passport to apply to TSA. How long did the whole process take for you?

[ulsterflyer]

I'm going there on the 28th and I cant wait! I've had 2 lessons to date and my instructor recommended i go to oba to obtain my PPL. He went there to do his multi.
I'll let you guys know how I get on - hopefully I'll have nothing but good things to say. Now if you'll excuse, I've an awful amount of studying to be getting on with!

[ghost_rider20]

Matt,

I did send you a PM but I take it your definately off to OBA in November to finish everything off?
Hope it all goes well for you out there, have fun and wise choice on doing the g.school before you go :D
Thats what I'm aiming to do as that gives me more time to focus on the flying itself... Just wish I'd never let my PPL exams lapse now as that means going through it all again which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but, does mean doing 'Air Law' again, oh the joys!!

Anyone looking at going to OBA next April/May time??

Cheers L :ok:

[ghost_rider20]

Matt,

I did send you a PM but I take it your definately off to OBA in November to finish everything off?
Hope it all goes well for you out there, have fun and wise choice on doing the g.school before you go :D
Thats what I'm aiming to do as that gives me more time to focus on the flying itself... Just wish I'd never let my PPL exams lapse now as that means going through it all again which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but, does mean doing 'Air Law' again, oh the joys!!

Anyone looking at going to OBA next April/May time??

Cheers L :ok:

[VFR Transit]

Hiya Ghost Rider

I am planning my hour building around these months. I will be there for a month.

Will you be doing the PPL?

VFR

[ghost_rider20]

VFR Transit,

G'day... Yes I will be finishing my PPL off out there, currently got 24 hours in a PA-28 warrior, so, hopefully with all being well it's not going to take too long to finish it off :)


As for exact dates yet I'm not entirely sure, but will definately be during April/May... Looking to do a few things whilst out there too.

Daytona speedway, karting, NASA centre...do as much as I can whilst there in my free time (no doubt a drink or 'two' when I know I wont be flying) so I'm really looking forward to it.

Do you have any particular date's in mind???

Cheers L :ok:

[VFR Transit]

Hiya Ghost Rider.

I have not got any dates in mind other than i am looking for the start / mid next year, say about april - july.

I live in Bury St edmunds, where in cambridge are you from.

NASA is great and so is the karking :}.

VFR

[ghost_rider20]

Wicked, well as soon as I have the fund's it will be booked!

I live just to the SE of the 'bridge in a small village close to the A11 called Fulbourn, have you heard of it??

Oh rite, I know Bury St Edmunds fairly well, I know they have an 'exceptional' nightclub called 'Brazillias' lol!
Probably on par with most of the clubs in Cambridge though! Normally go to N.market, Norwich for nights out!

Yeah I think that would be pretty damn cool too :ok:

Where did you do your PPL training?

PM for you VFR transit!

L

[robhoworth]

Hey,

Be very wary of OFT I was there last December (2007). Originally I planned to do my PPL in 5 weeks but the aircraft kept going tech and were not brilliant. Also they kept changing my instructor which was not helpful. They are affiliated with Cab Air in Bournmouth and as soon as they send out students everyone else get put to the back.

RE Naples I heard you spend about 25 minutes waiting to take off sat burning fuel which you pay for......

I left OFT after extending my stay to three months leaving due to work commitments having only 30 hours in the bank.:ugh: Also if you go DO NOT stop in Kissimmee Pines there accomodation its not pleasent.
I finished the training here in the UK and to be honest found the training much better. I had a great well experienced instructor here in Blackpool who I learnt loads off, im sure he wont mind me mentioning his name Robert Murgatroyd www.flybpl.com (http://www.flybpl.com).

Cost wise doing it in America will probably cost less including costs to get there and living there, perhaps about £6000, Being messed about it cost me £8000 and I finished here in Blackpool. Just be wary.
I would strongly suggest doing your JAA PPL here then going to the USA. If I could turn back the clock id happily have given Robert £8k back in December. I Know I know though the weather is predictably bad in the UK for the aviation enthusiast restricted to VFR.......

by for now choose wisely rob :ok:

[camel toe]

If you pay for your kitchen upfront and the wideboy does a gash job, or if you book a holiday and it's "not what it says on the tin" then you have many official channels to get compensation/money back etc. This of course doesn't erase any bad experiences but its not all lost.

Flight training is a completely different can of worms, it’s a "training course" they are not ordering a load of custom fitted units to be made and delivered to your house. I just don't see why you would want to give what is presumably a Limited Liability company a load of YOUR cash up front. Just have a look at other schools around the world, they are perfectly happy with a deposit and then a pay as you go arrangement.

Of course all of you will probably come back with a nice JAA PPL ticket and be "well chuffed", but if and when this school ever gets into difficulty you will be at the bottom of the list of debtors to get your cash back.

I speak from experience in that I was unhappy with my training provider so I moved schools. Piece of pi$$ to do. If the original school had a few thousand quid of my money they would have had me by the plums and I would have had to stick it out and not enjoy it, and if I'm spending thousands of pounds I want to have fun while doing it that’s for sure.

I'm just offering so friendly advice to sit back and chew over, don't let the "super low cost" drive you. As a well known operator say "low cost but not at any cost"

Good luck though and be sure to come back with any feedback for future students, whether that be positive or negative.

Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande"

[civil aviation]

ROB - sorry to hear of your bad experiences with OFT but this is about OBA- a completely different FTO although they are both in Florida.
There is obviously a risk in going anywhere but OBA have been around and under the same ownership for (15? 20?) years. They were the originators of the genuine guaranteed price (not the usual training course 'estimate' rip-off common in UK and USA) and, although every system has snags, OBA must have trained thousands at a lower cost than available anywhere else.
I am confident that if anyone wanted to pay-as-you-go, the proprietor would happy to quote and take your money but it would obviously cost you a lot more in total than their package price- the factor is 'commitment'. If you go to Old Farts Flying Club or commercial FTO's in UK and just pay for one lesson, you and they have no commitment so you might find you won't be getting another, or any, lesson when you want it. You will probably discover, also, that your 'course' has lots of nasty financial surprises because it isn't actually a package and they won't let you pass until you've paid them enough. The current OBA PPL package price (£3995) is well under £100 an hour and includes lots of 'extras', e.g. exams, night rating etc. which most FTO's will stuff you for. Also and it is unusual, OBA do not require any deposit (they TRUST you to turn-up) and advertise NO FUEL SURCHARGE (another current rip-off at some FTO's).
For anyone quitting any package, you're fortunate to get any sort of refund. Don't moan because it's you, not them, demonstrating a lack of commitment. Just try quitting a package holiday half-way through and asking for a refund ! BTW You could/should get travel insurance to cover genuine reasons for curtailment such as illness, death of relative etc.
Not my business but I am sure if anyone has genuinely relevant hours and asked OBA for a quote you would get a discount from normal package price.

[captainvampire]

SBF give it a rest ! :ugh:

[ersantemiz]

Accommodation (if you like sharing it with 3 others) is possibly the only decent return you get for your money. Too many issues to list as to why you should think twice before going

[TicketyBlue]

Just stick in and focus on the flying. Don't get caught up in the 3 B's - Booze, Birds and Beaches. Flying is TOP priority. If you keep this is mind, you'll be fine at OBA. Their current batch of instructors are excellent. I've been there already and looking forward to returning. :ok:

[civil aviation]

Excellent advice which some don't heed.
Idiots always object to anyone saying no or pointing out that they are wrong. Whether it's said nicely or nastily doesn't matter to the brats- they still moan about anybody and anything. So spicejetter- if you were called a c**t it was because you are one -even on the basis of your postings.
It seems OBA cannot win with wannabe wankers and, if they go elsewhere, I am sure OBA and their serious customers would be highly delighted.
OBA offer a straight package price deal but are then accused of including increased fuel costs to 'mask' increased costs ! However no-one has identified any comparable total PPL course price of less than £3995 at OBA.

[matthewB]

I've spoken to a few people now who've been - all of whom have had positive experiences. I'm not going to go for 3B's - I want to go and get my PPL purely and simply. I'm going to work my ass off to get it done in that timeframe.

I have to say thank you for the fresh and honest conversation this thread has generated. I didn't expect it as people had said OBA had been covered to death. I hear Adrian is a bit of a tough cookie, straight talking Yorkshireman but I plan to treat him with respect and be as professional as I can.

I'm still intent on training with OBA and I'll be sure to write a thorough report so that any future students have some more information.

Thanks again everyone.

Matt

[civil aviation]

This is a good example of a question which you should ask of the FTO rather than believe anyone on here. Most would not lie but they could be genuinely mistaken or things might have changed.
OBA had a reasonable and cheap pilot shop for all sorts of goodies and I'd be surprised if they don't still sell a range of headsets. Again ask OBA to quote what they sell and for what prices currently. There is an obvious advantage in buying when you start because, if there is any inherent defect, there is plenty of time for it to appear and be resolved before you leave.

[matthewB]

They no longer loan you a headset you have to buy them. There are prices up on their site. They have a David Clark H10-13.4 which I'm going to get. They also no longer loan maps and all the other stuff - you need to buy it, but the prices are very reasonable. This is all because they've lowered their prices and taken out all the stuff they gave you for free.

[AdamLT]

what does the course (zero to atpl) cost include? i have seen a quote of £28,590 for this, but then have noticed the atpl groundschool, and conversion is conducted at a JAA approved school.

im a little confused!


PS.. this is mentioned at the bottom of their ATPL package PDF.......Module Budget Cost is available at Ormond Beach Aviation - JAA Commerical Pilots Licence (http://www.flyoba.com/prices) and payable directly to the course provider.

[sketchy]

Prices lowered? Are you sure? It's about £1300 more expensive than it was a couple of years ago. And I've never seen prices at OBA higher than they are now.


Yep, the price was up to around £4.5k a few weeks ago but have just noticed it has dropped to under £4k. As has been previoulsy stated, this is because they have done away with certain things that were included in the price orginally but now you have to pay for. So really you are paying the same, but OBA now have a better headline price.

[VFR Transit]

By the time you have included for a headset and charts etc etc, and included your flights and spending, then it does work out a little cheaper staying and doing the PPL in the UK.

The only advantage of doing your PPL in the USA these days, is the weather, and yet depending on when you , you may find that you only get to fly in the monrings or at night.

VFR

[matthewB]

Down south near me the cost of the PPL is about £7.5k without landing fees, headset, fuel surcharges etc.
Even if you have to buy flights out to Florida, a headset, charts etc etc, it still works out approximately £2.5k - £3k cheaper! Yes you're still paying the same price as before at OBA but like sketchy says, it's a great headline for them.

I'm hoping that the weather in November is conducive to all day flying, although if it's early morning and late afternoon I have no issues with that.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

One of the most common, most enduring and biggest mistakes Wannabes make is investing in the cheapest possible PPL.

I used to teach 3 week £2,995 UK PPL courses in 1999 and I also used to do checkouts for those coming back from doing a PPL course abroad so I have some insight into this.

There are some perfectly excellent UK schools offering a realistic PPL course for £6,500 who can also then take you on to the CPL, Multi and IR with the same aircraft, airfields and instructor. Which would put you at a massive advantage compared to some Florida monkey who crammed 3 weeks of instruction into North American skies and then thinks they know how to fly privately in the UK.

The PPL is the foundation of your house. Weak foundations will give rise to cracks and future expense as you continue to build. Every time.

Good luck,


WWW

[matthewB]

Hi WWW,

I know that US skies are completely different to the UK skies and I'm expecting to put a fair few hours in when I get back learning the differences. Price is a consideration for me, I'll make no bones about it. The extra money saved by doing it in the US will allow me to buy some extra tuition in the UK to bring me up to speed. It will give me more hours and cost me the same as a PPL here.

If you still taught 3 week £3000 UK PPLs I would be first to sign up. But the flying clubs in my area, Redhill, Shoreham, perhaps Biggin Hill are just very expensive. I am aware that the transition to the UK is going to be turbulent but I'm determined not to be a crap pilot and will do all I can to stop it from happening.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ok - as long as you are aware that it often takes five hours or so to do a US PPL to UK club member checkout. The R/T and the procedures and airspace are somewhat different.

I understand that cost is very important. But money spent wisely at PPL level can reap great cost savings further on at the CPL and Multi IR levels where costs are triple.

WWW

[matthewB]

Hi WWW,

yep, approximately 5 hours is what I had planned as well as RT coaching upon my return. Many thanks for your frank and honest feedback, it really is appreciated.

Cheers
Matt

[smith]

Must agree with WWW, I did my PPL in USA and passed first time in 3 weeks, on hindsight I would have done it in the UK, the cracks certainly do appear as you progress to higher ratings. I wouldn't say the RT and airspace are vastly different, never really had a problem switching between US and UK RT having done some hours over there, although I did ask Leuchars for Flight Following once and was granted a Flight Information service by the amused controller.

I don't think it is actually the instruction that is bad in the US its the timescale, no time to consolidate on your morning lesson until you are back up for your afternoon lesson then again for your evening lesson. So you have virtually forgotten what went on in the morning. I know when it comes to advanced ratings this ability to learn quickly is needed but when learning the foundations a bit more time is needed. Don't think I could trim properly or fly straight and level when I got back from the States, and my hour building with a bad technique compounded the issues.

If I had to do it again I'd do it at a local club, at weekends and at night after work if possible, 2 lessons a weekish, would give plenty of time to reflect on each lesson. Also saves you taking time off work and all the other added expenses it costs going to the states.

[civil aviation]

WWW is a bigot (as exemplified by his... uhmm... 'unfortunate' offensive stereotype 'Florida monkey') with a track record of rubbishing 'foreign' aviation training and that at USA JAA-FTO's in particular.

It is certainly and obviously true that 100 hours would 'train' anyone better than 50 hours, whether in a car, tractor, aircraft etc. Predictably, most people don't have the money or patience to do much more than the minimum required to obtain any licence or rating. Also, there is the practical problem that aircraft availability, weather etc. mean that 'getting it' in the UK usually takes a great deal longer than in the USA. That said, training in the UK will suit plodders and people whose business/job/relationship will not allow them to leave the country for a few weeks. It is, also, necessary for those who save-up for their next weekly lesson and take a year to obtain their PPL.
Going to the USA does involve additional expense of flight, visa etc. but it will be much cheaper overall

Lastly, in response to two more myths:
1. OBA and, presumably, others don't care if you want to take more than however long is allocated to their packages- the time pressure is mainly from the customers rather the FTO's who will happily extend- you only have to pay for accommodation time which is not included in your course package.
2. If you turn-up to rent at Old Farts Flying Club, with a new PPL obtained anywhere else, it won't matter if you are a Welsh wizard, a 'Florida monkey' or an Essex expert, they'll give you a hard time and insist on checking you out, familiarisation, membership etc. etc. before you're accepted.

[eninem]

True. I earned my PPL at OBA and had to go through the old checkout and familiarisation routine with the local club when I returned. That said, I enjoyed it and was pleased to learn that the CFI thought that things were fine, despite an unhealthy trust of USA 3¬4 week PPL'rs.

If you study before you leave, the exams are easy and you can concentrate on and consolidate your flying. Even better, do the exams before you leave. (Extra cost though).

Going out without studying is foolish - stress, pressure and division of effort. Also, if you plan to visit the theme parks and drink every night, you may find you have not got your head in the right place and the cheap costs will become expensive in the long run as you fail to acheive the targets on time.

Stay focused and prepare and you'll be fine.