EasySlow

[BongleBear]

What's going on with easy flying at 250kts all the time these days? Is it a new sop to fly that on transition from your econ mach speed? I've been stuck behind a few now going into south of spain and have had to slow down to 220kts just so we don't catch up with them.

My girlfriend thinks I'm being a grumpy old man for posting this. But I don't care.

Sort it out! Surely it's not the most efficient speed to fly at? Can't you just stick with the econ speeds?

[Dogma]

Chap, you need to learn a thing or two about efficient flying and the use of cost index.

Regards the decent, basically the longer with the thrust levers at idle from the cruise the better the saving. This involves flying the jet towards the best glide speed. Thomsonfly have worked with Nats to come up with a compromise speed for the London TMA of 270 kts in the decent.

[Kiteflier]

As stated in one of the other threads it's all down to the cost index. Easy use 10 or 13 which gives approx 266kts in descent. However, they could always come back to green dot. Watch this space.

[AltFlaps]

Dogma,

The 270 KIAS is for all aircraft in the TMA.

As regards to ECON speed, this is defined by the cost index. Most airlines (including mine) has lowered cost indices dramatically over the past few years.

With the cost of fuel as is, there is no justification for most airlines to have a cost index of more than ZERO. The reason most operators still fly faster than that is for ATC, other aircraft and of course the commercial schedule.

So, chill out boys ... as long as you don't get a bee in your bonnet about it, it's actually quite calming - and you're only going to loose a couple of minutes.

[BOAC]

BB - your g/f is partly right!:). It is the 'future way' at the moment. We need to be 'SAware' en-route and to anticipate slower speeds at any point. Plan your descent etc accordingly. If you are a 'barber's pole' merchant, you can always try nipping past at warp 8 (unless it is the national carrier outside UK, of course:hmm:)

Can't you just stick with the econ speedsThey may, of course, be doing just that................. As others say, CI's are dropping.

[Dogma]

Altflaps - absolutely correct, I meant to say that it was a TFly initiative as we have been working with NATS to improve efficiency across the UK.

[lurkio]

BongleBear -at 24 you obviously have so much more experience than the people at easy that make the decision. If you want to blast along at 300 knots then go ahead and see what the final fuel bill for your company is when the receivers go in (no I do not know or frankly care who you work for but sincerely hope you still have a job when this all settles).
Econ speeds are being flown it's just that with a CI of 10 the speeds are slower than before. It has been this way for a couple of months now so you should be getting the hang of it.
None of us particularly like being at the head of a slow moving queue but if that is what it takes to keep me and my colleagues in our jobs then by hell we will do it. If we are in the way then ATC can always (and do) ask us to speed up a bit and of course we will comply. Maybe if the oil price goes all the way down we will see a return to the heady days of 290 kts in the descent but until then relax and watch the slower moving scenery. Hey, look on the bright side, if you are paid by the hour instead of sector pay you're going to be making more money.

[AppleMacster]

Can't you just stick with the econ speeds?

Yes, that's what we're doing. CI 10 can give ECON speeds in the descent as low as 250kts depending on weight.

AppleMacster

[sarah737]

Lurkio, you are correct IF you are the only one in the sky...
Today, again..., slow moving Easy into CIA, nobody ahead of him, second easy behind and we ended up in the Tiber hold. So the first easy saved 10 kg of fuel, the second one lost 120 kg where is the gain?

[Caudillo]

Bonglebear, this is a stab in the dark - you either have or want a BMW? Preferably one with the xenon headlights that only drives in the outside lane?

What's wrong with slowing down to 220 kts? The alternative I guess would be to request vectors and more track miles behind the Easy so you could maintain your 300kts or whatever.

Face it, it's generally going to add a minute or two to when you touch down. Your clientelle will be too smashed to notice and unless I worked for an airline that paid me according to my arrival time, I'd really be hard pushed to care. In your case, it's hardly going to earn you a discount on the amount you're shelling out to your airline to work for them, so it's probably worth relaxing a bit in the air.

My advice would be, assuming you've got a few miles to spare behind the Easy, is to check out your photocopy of the airfield plates, the Easyjet will probably not vacate at the earliest exit, you do a nice fast approach with a carrier landing (It's the winglets, I know I know), you can hopefully get off earlier than him and take him on the taxiway or the apron.

Sarah, you're right in what you say. There is no gain, looks like a net loss of 110 kgs to me. Sounds like the first Easy didn't have the capacity to assess the whole situation and the knock on effects of fuel flow to the other aircraft in the Rome TMA. Perhaps you might've volunteered some advice over the radio and provided some much needed guidance?

[A and C]

I think that we are all flying wth lower cost indexes now due to the fuel cost but what buggs me about Easyjet is that the seem to be very reluctent to use the visual approach to save time and even more fuel.

Could this be because of the company FDM policy? (please note this is a question not an accusation)

[lurkio]

Give me the visual every time, saves having to work out what all those instruments are trying to tell me.
Seriously though, at some places a visual seems to be a great short cut, ALC 10 for instance. However, placing yourself slightly high (due terrain) when hitting the centreline does leave one or two a little reluctant due the strictness of the stabilised policy. Trying to save time and fuel by going visual always seems like a great idea but if you are going to flop your wedding tackle on the table don't give the company a big sharp knife as well.
As for waiting in the queue why is it that a certain harp carrying airline descends flat out and then gets vectored for a 9 mile final in glorious weather (no traffic in front of him) when we could go visual and be on the ground before he has hit the marker. Now that is a waste of fuel.

[one post only!]

Will everyone get over it. The company set a cost index. We fly it. If asked by ATC we will increase. If its obvious we are going to screw company traffic up, we will increase. Otherwise its EZY's train set and we fly the aircraft how they tell us. We don't do it to screw everyone else up!

Its a sign of the times, if you don't like it leave your airline and go fast jet instead! Thats if they don't go bust first.......

[one post only!]

Will everyone get over it. The company set a cost index. We fly it. If asked by ATC we will increase. If its obvious we are going to screw company traffic up, we will increase. Otherwise its EZY's train set and we fly the aircraft how they tell us. We don't do it to screw everyone else up!

Its a sign of the times, if you don't like it leave your airline and go fast jet instead! Thats if they don't go bust first.......

[baps]

If it's a company aircraft behind and they're catching up then someone's not flying the correct speed. If both are descending at 250kts of whatever econ says then the no2 shouldn't need to hold.

[Flare-Idle]

CI 10 is one measure to safe cost on the flight mission from A to B. As we are part of a complex traffic flow with different companies flying at different CIs, flow problems will therefore mainly occur on arrival routes of big airports. That is daily business and as such occasionally leads to more fuel flow due to more track miles. Proactive early questioning of required arrival speeds might prevent once in a while more track miles by speeding up or even slowing more down due to early arrival. Use flap 3 (where appropriate) and ask for a visual (where appropriate), perform a single engine taxi-in (where appropriate) and don't forget to switch Pack 2 OFF after landing and you might end up for the perfect day regarding fuel burn...
Most likely, we don't achive alll this on one single rotation, yet optimizing it to the best extent for every leg we fly is a great challenge and worth to try.

[LocBlew]

Well said one post only.

My airline flies under a variable cost index policy. On transition we are doing 250kt IAS lots of times. Of course, if asked by ATC, we'll increase (just yesterday arriving at ORY we were asked to do 300kt... no problem!!!).

As long as airlines and pilots have this kind of flexibility, there shouldn't be any traffic flow issues.

[Steve73]

Read all the replies with interest as I am having to reduce due to the Orange buses descening at 256kts. Cost indexes and all that are very interesting and I understand you are told what to do and you follow your SOP's. However, what about all the other companies who don't have such low indexes and say want to cruise at .79 and descend at 280kts. Have Easy consulted ATC in the UK and across europe about their new speeds as it must reduce flow. Or have they decided we will do it this way and F**k everybody else ? I don't know the answer and am just asking. Also does it affect your schedules at all ?

[RED WINGS]

Be interested to know how much more airframe/engine time these new speeds create im willing to bet the maint schedules will be going haywire!

This all sounds like one of those evil accountants making a rubbish decision based on numbers, but lacking the operational knowledge. With all the measures mentioned above single engine taxi, pack 2 off etc, are easy really struggling that much? What is easys break even point with oil prices, $140?

[Flare-Idle]

Questionable, if easy has asked all relevant ATC units before introducing CI10. Yet, we might see route specific CIs coming up in the near future. IMHO they would make more sense as they could take into account local ATC regulations on a one to one basis...

[Dogma]

Steve73 - who these days is flying around with a high cost index? The majority are saving fuel - the rest can "go swing"

[Flare-Idle]

Not sure, where the break even of easy is with oil at 140US$.
However, somebody has to pay the fuel bill at the end of the month. The less you burn, the less you pay. Been shown facts & figures that Flaps 3 and single engine taxi-in start to pay off significantly.
Margins in that business are not great at all and efforts to reduce money/fuel drain can sometimes help to "make" instead of "break".

[Stone Cold II]

For those moaning about having to slow down because of a easyJet in the way I'll give you some advise.

Go to easyjet.com to apply for a job after your airline goes bust because you like to fly around at 300kts and save 2 minutes compared to the easyJet and burning up all that fuel. :ugh:

Seriously though, in the cruise down to AGP we now generally cruise at mach .77 if I wind up the spped to Mach .78 the cursor on the speed tape changes by 2 knots! Not really a big difference in the cruise.

Just out of curiosity I put cruise speed at Mach .78 and put for the decent 290 knots to see how much time we gained and how much extra fuel we burned. Maximum gain in time was 2 minutes with a extra hundred or 2 on the fuel burn. Over 2000 sectors that is a big saving in fuel.

So please tell me why you so upset over 2 minutes you are loosing out on? Look at it this way, that's 2 minutes less that crewing can use you for duty. :E

[Steve73]

Well Dogma you'd be surprised how many are flying around not with high cost indexes but with indexes that give them a cruise of 79 and descent of 280kts. So tell me again why should other airlines slow down because you've decided 256 kts is best when 4 weeks ago 280 was fine ? And as for 2 minutes more duty and 2 less to be used is crewing is not the issue. The issue is being on my way home and not having to use the 'puff handle' to as not run in the back of you !! But then maybe I'm not pro company or 'orange' enough. You obviously are - good boys.

[BongleBear]

effing hell, didn't think my post would result in all this reaction! good job i deleted the bit about 'and why taxi at 2kts aswell'......

steve73 beat me to say what my response would have been. we've all had a play about in the fmc and seen that fuel burn v time saved isn't too good.

my company happen to use cost index of 35 and it pisses me off when we have to slow down or enter the hold because there's a plane painted like a clown doing 250kts ahead. i know for a fact the controllers down in spain are getting annoyed with it, they're having a nightmare down in murcia (i know it doesn't help with there only being an ndb serviceable down there).

thanks to those for answering the question though guys, is cost index of 10 new in easy then?

and to that bell who said 'get on easyjet.com and apply for a job because yours will be broke soon'... good luck with that, what's going on with these rumours of pulling out of certain bases? crew not flying? and how much savings do you guys have in the bank?- you sure you can ride out these bad times.....? the futures looking blue and yellow, certainly not orange mr stone cold.

[Flare-Idle]

Yes, CI 10 anchored in EZY and EZS SOPs for the time being. Used to be CI 19 before.

Color of the future ? Who knows these days...we're all trying to survive in the long run. Generally speaking, the livery on the tail is irrelevant, what counts is a mature behavior and a professional approach to solve the challenges ahead of us...

[LYKA]

Steve 73.

FWIW most airlines pick a CI that represents LRC (If you fly the NG that will be about 35 and will give you 0.79 in the CRZ and 280 in the descent). Nothing scientific there and not the best way to use CI, i.e.,you do the maths (TDMC's and fuel cost ratio) come up with a CI and plug it into the FMS - it's algorithms pick the best speeds to fly based on wind, weights etc...Thats what EZY have done, and continue to do and it produces the lowest TOTAL cost. We don't pick a CI in order to fly a particular speed - we use the CFP CI and let the FMS choose the best speed. The reason for the change from CI 19 to CI 10 is pretty obvious isn't it?

Brgds

[hapzim]

In my bunch the C.I. is at the top of the plog. It can vary slightly day to day often as low as 8, even varies out / in bound leg, where the perf boys are monitoring all the costs at base even the ones we can not see(have access to) at the sharp end. If your worried about fuel wastage then just look at the departure queues with seven or eight airframes ahead all waiting chucking out the $$$ or the non direct ATC routings around Europe. At night may save 800kg + with direct routings over plog on a 4 hour flight. Descending at econ does help in the pocket even if it can be frustrating for us at the sharp end with every minute counting to keep the programme on time. OTP vs cost.

As for a them and us slanging match, GROW up. I don't work for either.

[A and C]

Thank you for your illuminating reply....... Quote:-

Trying to save time and fuel by going visual always seems like a great idea but if you are going to flop your wedding tackle on the table don't give the company a big sharp knife as well.

It would seem that I have the answer to my question about FDM being used at a tool to beat the pilots with. This seems to be turning the pilots in some airlines into auto pilot watching drones who won't disconect the autopilot untill 300ft above the runway.

If this is the result of the company FDM policy the only result will be the reduction of pilot skills and a reduction in flight safety standards.

Since getting out of line training on the A320 all my landings have been hand flown without autothrust from about 15 miles and most pure visual approaches, in a modern airliner it is the only way to keep up your skill levels. I will admit that if I was flying into AMS or CDG I would make full use of the automatics however for the company FDM policy to remove half the tools from the tool box leaves you pooly placed when some of the automatics fail.

[RVF750]

270kts in the TMA is fine, but I do wish they's sort the corridor out and knock the FL150 by KIDLI for LGW northerly arrivals on the head. My fuel burn is far higher at FL150 than FL250 and staying higher later for a 250kt descent al the way to be at FL70 at Willo would be far more eficient.

In these modern times, surely it's not rocket science to have an RNAV terminal arrival with altitudes to give a CDA into the Willo hold area, with clearances issue to entre , say at FL250 at DISIT with similar at other entry points on the STARs.

What I do know is that if I can save only 70kgs of fuel per sector, then with all of us doing it every flight, our company bottom line would be millions up at end of year.

[Rednex]

Back to Easyjet. Having to be slowed down because Easy in front is trickleing down a 256kts is really annoying. Just a few weeks ago into SXF we were behing an Easy from LTN and had to slow down to 220kts with 87 track miles to go. No impressed at all. I wish that ATC would pull the Easyjet aircraft off the arrival/approach because they are createing a traffic jam to all other airlines behind (Its not just Ryanair pilots who pull there hair out behind you guys)
Then on the ground! Might as well park and walk to the terminal as you would bet there at the same time. They (not all) seem to spend all day on the runway and make zero effort to get off it. Maybe there is some inhouse game on how long you can stay on the active runway until tower tells you to get off. If so I hope the prizes are good.

TIMMMYY!!

[olster]

At the end of the day you are paid to fly the company procedures and if that includes low CI then so be it.My company also elects to use a similar CI to easy resulting in lower descent speeds.If Spanish ATC and/or rival airlines don't like it that is not my/our problem.Airlines are businesses and they need to save fuel in tough economic times.

As professional aviators we should have the maturity and intelligence to understand this.

[lurkio]

Unfortunately it is going to take complaints direct to the ATC units involved, rather than on here, by other airlines to get the situation resolved. Only when a majority of their customers complain will ATC even think about approaching easy and asking us to fit in. If you are not happy get your management to write to all the units and see if you can get it changed. We would all like to hammer in at 300 knots but that is not what our company want right now. Of course if ATC wish us to increase we will all (willingly) go as fast as required but it is unfortunate (if you want everyone to go fast) that most ATC units are having a real go at coping with the range of descent speeds out there and to a greater or lesser extent making it work.
We are under pressure for turnround times which are being compressed because we fly slower and most, if not all, of our block times seem to be a little on the tight side these days. Even saving a couple of minutes airborne would make our lives a little easier but as I said my paymaster wants it that way so that he can continue paying me.
As for time on the runway, we are encouraged to use flap 3 for landing these days because it saves 10kg or so of fuel. However if it means missing an exit and having to roll out further then taxi back you are going to nullify the saving so in that case we use flap full. Keeping an eye on the ND and seeing how far behind the next traffic is comes under the heading of airmanship and although having planned for flap 3 I have changed the plan to flap full (but not after 1000' as the FDM hounds would be after me even though it is only a 5 knot decrease in speed) and got off the runway quicker.
Now if we could all get together and find out who the oil speculators are and where they live, we could go pay them a visit and introduce them to my mate pain and maybe the oil price could be lower. Unfortunately, even if oil goes back down to $80 a barrel I cannot see things changing back as the current measures would mean more profit and that after all is what everyone wants (just think of the management bonuses). I am afraid that slow flight and descent are here to stay, at easyJet at least.

[LYKA]

even if oil goes back down to $80 a barrel I cannot see things changing back

Not quite. Remember CI is the ratio of fuel AND time costs therefore is the price of fuel drops the CI will increase...

[lurkio]

Point taken, sorry it's a mixture of night flights and starting to think like a bean counter (beats himself severely with a wet copy of his FCOM - admittedly only on CD). I know you are correct but....... I am not going to hold my breath waiting.
Why not land Flap 2 - after all it is the same speed as flap 3 but without the really draggy bits. That's got to be worth something in ideas pay hasn't it?

[lurkio]

Aaaaaaarrrrggghhhh - I'm doing it again. :ugh:

[Stone Cold II]

It is annoying I admit flying at 256 kts in the decent but the company pay me to do it so who am I to argue.

What is annoying is when the company claim that every airline is flying at these speeds and they have spoken to NATS who are very happy that we fly these speeds, when it's quite obvious to us in the air and on here that they are not happy.

[LYKA]

What is annoying is when the company claim that every airline is flying at these speeds and they have spoken to NATS who are very happy that we fly these speeds, when it's quite obvious to us in the air and on here that they are not happy

They have spoken to NATS I can assure you of that however I don't think they have mentioned that other companies are doing the same...However I maybe mistaken.

Why not land Flap 2 - after all it is the same speed as flap 3 but without the really draggy bits. That's got to be worth something in ideas pay hasn't it?

I think that's an Airbus certification issue.

All the best

[Facelookbovvered]

By flying at turboprop speeds we are saving so much money, we might as well go the extra mile and fly turbo props!!! then we could save even more by paying turbo prop salaries as well or am i missing something?

[Husky One]

or just buy a turboprop operator to do all the domestics ;)