Air India B777 Contract

[IXNAT]

Looking for some updated information on the ongoing Air India contract. It appears that they are actively recruiting B777 DECs with Europe and US basings. Would anyone flying under this contract care to comment of QOL, terms and conditions, taxes, etc.?

Nothing under the search engine that is recent enough to prevent my asking.

[Winston]

I'm interested to know the above info as well, anyone???

[TangoUniform]

The contract info is on Titanaviation.aero But awfully quiet out there about the QOL issues working for them. Again, already asked, any info would be welcome.

[overseasplease]

Latest offer from Rishworth is 6000 USD a month for FOs - you get to choose your base on the Air India network. 15 days home in a two month cycle. If you don't have a sim date from the last six months you have to pay AI to get recurrent.

Having never been to India - anyone have any info on lifestyle for 6000 month for a single expat?

[Van Pelt338]

Here is another contractor. Good luck.
Pay/time off looks low and few days off.
Cheers VP

Next Generation Aviation Recruitors (http://www.nexgen-aviation.com)

[NGFellow]

Never heard of Next Gen Recruiters before. Any feedback on their reputation? They are offering 3 year guarantee pay (even if laid off by AI). Pay is much lower and they are not paying Indian taxes nor are they paying for housing at your base in India per their contract details. They are paying you for 12 months though while you work 6/2.

[av8r786]

All information is on this site. Salary is before taxes and you are given a 1099 if in the U.S.

Next Generation Aviation Recruitors (http://nexgen-aviation.com/)

[putar]

I have read a few posts about Next-gen, it seems their pay is low compared to others, however they offer 6-2 vs. 8-2, which may be more valuable to commuters. Has anyone had any experience working Next-gens contract?

[rohit83]

Nex-Gen contract is very bad.

The best contract and company is Text Deleted. they are based in Lonon and have links with all Major Indian airlines.

They are very quick and easy to deal with, and seem to have very good contacts in Air India.


Aviator Recruitment all the way for India

[galdian]

Just when Rishworth was mentioned thought I'd post; not hard facts but an observation.

6-12 months ago a lot of angst on Pprune regarding Rish and opertations in India which largely revolved around tax issues.
In some other Asian contracts with Rish tax is clearly stated as paid, in India at best "grey."

Looking from the outside seemed as if this was convenient - should there bee too many expats, or the local pilots wanted to flex their muscles, or there was a decrease in pilot requirements for the forseeable future, whatever, a tax issue arose which made some pilots reconsider and depart poste haste.
Other contract agencies may be the same, better, clearer or worse.

The fact is that Rishworth DO have Asian contracts where the tax obligation is clearly laid out - but for some reason not contracts in India.

[HVYMETLDRIVERWANNABE]

I talked to nex gen about this, about 2 months ago they were so short they were offering to pick up 777 FOs with just 1000 hours TT who were willing to pay for their own type so I threw my hat in the ring.

I checked climbto350 the next morning at work and the comically the offer was gone. I actually did get a response like two days after that, they basically said they got too many offers, I was still half tempted to get a loan and buy the type but common sense got the best of me.

It would have been nice, espcially since they have the Bangkok base!

[bear11]

Rohit, if you have anything better to contribute to pprune other than 3 pathetic e mails plugging an agency no-one has heard of, let's hear it. The rest of the world has moved on years ago from believing bull**** that someone they never heard of has a "special" relationship with any airline. We also understand that when the crap hits the fan if you're a pilot dealing with an Indian airline that can have amnesia about aspects of the contract they signed with you, dealing with them through an Indian agency won't get you an invitation to MENSA.

Galdian, you're right on the money, but the root cause could be that Air India may have a conveniently different interpretation of tax law than other airlines in India because they fly in and out of the country, and they would take the same attitude with any agency they deal with - IF an agency will sign the contract. Contracting friends of mine have left as a result, they didn't see anything "grey" in it, however expecting somone to pay your tax for you in normal circumstances is a bit wishful, it's just that they know the other Indian airlines mainly do it the right way.

[YouGotMail]

Rohit,

Bear11 is correct. We weren't born yesterday. I know who you are. We have spoken on the phone. Please stop using this forum as an advertising platform for your "I-wannbe-a-recruiter-although-I-have-no-experience" start-up business. It is clear you are new and naive to the recruiting business. You seem to be one of the many who opened up shop to get into the burgeoning pilot recruitment business. Nice try but don't insult our intelligence.

I am in the process of working with Sigmar Aviation in Ireland for a 777 "assessment" (interview) with Air India. All my paperwork, security check, etc. are complete. Just the sim check remains.

I have been in touch with Next-Gen. They seem to be new also and have put forth less desirable terms but have worded it to sound fantastic. Be careful. (A 1099 for U.S. guys may await also...?)

Titan Aviation in Dubai is also new to the game and they are most definitely full of ****. I caught them in a some lies so I decided to cross them off my list also.

Rishworth is big, experienced, and I have found no reason not to go with them except that I had "heard" that in the earlier days they were late on salaries by up to one whole month. But I would imagine that this has been long rectified, as they do have a long list on their payroll now.

I just chose Sigmar mainly because I heard that they always pay on time--and that's my key concern, amongst a few others. They are a bit poor in responding right away to correspondence, but once you get up and running I think you can leave the administrative part to them and rest assured it will be taken care of properly. This info was given to me by former contract pilots of Sigmar. And thus I have chosen to work with them. I am in the process of finalizing terms with them. So far I have a good feeling. I'll keep you guys posted.

I have done two other contracts in India over the years on different type and other contracts globally. I may not be a rocket scientist, but I can certainly sniff out the Titan's and the Rohit's out there who are out to try to deny us the best deal possible.

Moral of the story: Do your research!

On that note, does anyone know what the simulator profile is in the Air India interview? I understand they use the Jet Airways sim. That's all I know so far.

[timbob]

Sim Profile 777 AI one year ago given at Alteon/Boeing/Miami. Sim was 777-300 and administered by AI training Capt (Indian gentlman) who knew what he was doing, knew how to operate the sim, knew the airplane. Used JFK runway 22L for all takeoffs/approaches and landings. Crosswind takeoff, radar vectors on departure, TCAS RA after leveloff, hydraulic or electrical problem that necessitates return to JFK, procedures involved 20flap approach (VOR 22L) to touchdown (same crosswind). Takeoff engine-fail prior to V1 (aborted takeoff). Takeoff engine-fail after V1 fly profile and radar vectors for single-engine approach (VOR 22L) with missed approach and single-engine approach to 22L (visual) for landing (same crosswind) with engine-fire on rollout to EVAC on runway....change seats with other evaluaee and do it all again. PNF in right seat gets to demo knowledge of use of Electronic Checklist for normal and irregular/emergency (Boeing procedures). All weights/fuel in Kg/Liters, sim equipped with electronic flight bag, but no knowledge of EFB required (paper approach plates OK), 300 had GE engines so no EPR guages, just N1/N2....not much in way of brief or debrief since this was an eval...very busy 1.5 to 2.0 hours each seat. Both of us had only flown the 200 with Pratts, but it went OK..from a sim standpoint the 300 flies a lot like the 200B (IGW). They observe your FMC-work during the course of the profile, but didn't require any special demo's. Timbob

[rohit83]

YouGotMail you Text deleted. Comments regarding Aviator should direct to your company …start up rubbish!!!!!!
The process you have mentioned is a load of rubbish as both sim checks and interviews are conducted at the same time on the same day, as has been the case for last 6 months!!!!! (OBVIOUSLY YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT )
I am not sure where you figured out stats regarding Aviator as all incorrect as company has deep roots within Indian Aviation…Do research and is no start up( Research is key before committing to any company, Text deleted.
Nex Gen and AI is short term……Text deleted.

Most reputable firm a lot stronger than Sigmar is Rishworth!!!!!!! ( AI leading firms Aviator/ Rishworth)
Tax laws are simple….Captains are self employed therefore responsible for own taxes…..
In regards to Aviator they have contracts for all Indian Airlines, Jet,KFA, AI etc…..Makes me think they know what they doing,Text deleted.

[aldebran]

Rohit,

At Imperial college, here in London, there exists a fantastic piece of scientific equipment called a tunnelling electron microscope. It bombards the subject with a focussed beam of electrons so that you can see the tiny atoms that it is made of. Just think you can see the smallest unit of matter that makes up the elements of our universe with this magnificent device. Even if I had that microscope, I still couldn't locate my interest in your postings!

[filejw]

Such timely info ..one year and two days between posts....LOL

[Duck Rogers]

rohit

Good day. We've not met, I'm Duck Rogers (Moderator). How are you?

While I have no personal involvement in the matter under discussion I do have an interest in what is posted in this forum. I also, as a working pilot, have some insight into our industry. As this is our first meeting I'd like to share some things with you.

Firstly, you will note that your posts have been modified. This has been done to remove the abusive language and self promoting (free) advertising both of which breach the terms and conditions of the site . You agreed to abide by these when you joined, please do so.

Swearing, abuse, racism, otherisms (the list of which is variable and dependant upon the phase of the moon) will not be tolerated here. This is a one-time only warning. Repeat offences on your part or initial offences by other posters will result in an immediate ban. I have at my disposal a variety of (virtual) options all designed to make problems go away. I am only part way through a course of treatment for rampant megalomania and a god complex so anything could happen. Flood, plagues of locusts, famine..................... the works.

That's the moderator part done with. Now, with my pilot hat on I'll offer you some advice. If you are, as you claim, a recruiter or contractor of pilots and have revealed your company name it might not be considered sound business practice to describe the members of this community as "...full of crap...", "liars" and guilty of fraud. I'm not going to get into what is or is not true as that's not my fight but your behaviour is extremely unprofessional and gives me that itchy feeling behind the eyes. Last time I got that I blacked out for three hours and when I came to my neighbours yapping dog was missing and I had a new concrete patio. Not only will your outbursts lose any business you might have but it will see you dismissed from this forum (that last part was with my mod hat on again).

So. Disagree with people here as much as you like but do it in a polite, calm and rational manner. I am here voluntarily and any time I spend here is my own. I'm not going to be wasting it on dummy spitters and toy throwers. The line of least resistance for me is either the 'delete' or 'ban' button.




PS Some of you may have noticed that recent posts in this forum appear in a mixture of light and bold font. This is due to new software;) which detects and corrects textspeak. In its initial phase it will merely correct such messages but after that (a week or so) it will delete them. The moral of the story is that this is a forum for professionals who are expected to communicate as such. We have a complete keyboard full of letters so let's use them. If you want to see the alternative visit the cabin crew wannabee forum where the moderators have to work full time to make the threads legible.

Thank you for your time.


Duck
Moderator

[highcirrus]

rohit83

I did a quick Google search on the name that remained in your post of 5 Oct 08 (#9) after being moderated. The result is here (http://www.aviatorrecruitment.com/index.php). If this is the recruitment agency that you are so artlessly promoting within Pprune, then the website does nothing whatsoever, as of today’s date, to substantiate the implication of being a serious player in the field, made just over a year ago.

To quote the Homepage:

Aviation Recruitment is a leading supplier of skilled manpower professionals to the aviation industry. Our teams of experts has been in this industry and understand the requirements of every profile. We have been supplying professionals who are qualified and rightly equipped to handle the job pressures and requirements in all the spheres. As of date, we have supplied professionals to leading airlines, manufacturers, and aircraft leasing companies. We are a burgeoning organization and our work sphere is expanding manifold. We aim to be leaders in this field (sic)

And from the “Guide for Airlines” page:

Aviator Recruitment is a team of dedicated aviation industry professionals, with unparallel years of experience, who aim to provide one of the most qualified and reliable professionals to the airlines, manufacturers, aircraft leasing organizations. Aviator Recruitment, has established itself as a brand name in the aviation industry; through our experienced professionals; who provide the clients great financial help, and also operation smoothness. With our vast experience for providing professionals; we can proudly claim that we have employed the proper individuals in the proper places; thereby helping the aviation industry with there demanding and ever expanding operations. (sic)

Is this not all very thin and boastful hype? Can the agency substantiate any of this blurb and why would a prospective contract professional choose this company rather than Rishworth or Sigmar?

Incidentally, why does the agency appear to have two names (it has one in the first paragraph and a different one in the second)? Is this consistent with a highly professional and experienced agency, well established in its field?

Finally, the “Latest Job” page may be out of date. My friends on contract with Air India tell me that B777 commander/TRI/TRE recruitment is on hold due budgetary constraints. AI A310 aircraft have been converted to freighters and are exclusively crewed by National pilots, B737NG ex-pat commander recruitment is on similar hold, B747 ex-pat contractors have all been fired over the past couple of months as B777 has taken over their routes and B777 ex-pat first officers are being replaced by National first officers after they’ve all but drifted off to the Gulf, seeking permanent jobs with proper airlines who treat them with a modicum of respect and consideration that is utterly absent from the Air India lexicon. All this under the shadow of DGCA holding to its policy of ridding the country of ex-pat contract pilots by 31 Jul 2010.

I’d be interested to read your thoughts.

PS. Who are the people in the website photograph? Are they Company personnel, models or was the picture lifted at random from any available source?

[TopTup]

IXNAT, Winston, etc....

If you are considering looking into a "contract" (VERY loose term!) in India to fly for AI then be warned. The contract is not enforced and regularly breached. If you're communting from The States then that clause of Business Class / upgradeable travel when on duty is laughed at. You'll enjoy the priveledge of Coach for your 16 hr flight home. Sometimes you'll get paid on time, at others you won't. If you resign, be prepared for a battle to get your final payment. AI have a history of just not paying. Why? Because they can't be bothered.

As PIC be prepared to fly with 175-200 hr CPL pilots. A colleague told me that in his 30+ years at United he took over from an FO twice. In his first 6 months at AI he had to do so 4 times. If your FO does a hard landing then be prepared to be called into the the office to be ridiculed and humiliated by at least 2 guys standing over and yelling at you. All facts....

Support from yor agency? HA! AI pays them and so it is not in their interest to bite the hand theat feeds them. When your contract is used as toilet paper be prepared for a condecending email from your agency asking you to just go with it.... The person at AI in charge of the expat contracts is as corrupt as all hell which is only matched by the level of incompetance.

Eg: You are issued with a F.A.T.A (your foreigners license) which expires anything from 6 months to 6 weeks time. It is [contractually!] The Airline's job to renew it. You fill out all paperwork (in tripilicate between carbon paper and subit 5000 more passport photos!!). You then go on your allocate leave period. Then you are told not to return to India yet as your FATA is not ready. 2 weeks later you get an email informing you that you have been terminated. You are not paid because you are deemed "unavailable for work" since you did not have a license from XX/XX/XX date. You contact your agency, then welcome to carnival of ignored emails and phone calls. This didn't happen to me but it has to numerous others.

I left some time ago but am in contact with those their. 95% of the pilots HATE it and would leave if they could. Other (financial) issues have their hands tied. Why would just about EVERY expat FO who was there run as soon as possible? I believe those still there are about to go as well. All the people aren't always wrong all the time.

If you are still interested it would be well worth the investment for a flight to Mumbai or Delhi and stay at one of the hotels the expats are kept in. The hotels are quite nice BUT go and sit with the expats for breakfast, dinner or a drink. Ask them their honest opinion. The expat community are for the most part a great bunch of guys from all walks of life, all relms of aviation and from many differing countries (but mostly The States on the 777). It will well be worth the money to go their because all the posts on PPRuNe can never prepare you for the dispicable treatment you will be facing if you decide to take the job. You are not welcome at AI and are seen only as a necessary evil.

FDTL's? HA! There's another joke!

If you still are considering it then DO NOT touch that Auckland based agency with a barge pole! Quite possibly the WORST of them all. Personal experience on that one! You must understand that NOTHING gets done without backhand deals and substancial bribery. You just have to figure out which is the lessor of the evils!!!!

Good luck with your decision.

[highcirrus]

Can anyone cast light on the outcome (if any) of the meetings, re: arbitrary imposition by Air India of ex-pat pilot pay cuts, held between Air India management and the flight crew recruiting agencies, which took place in Mumbai this week?

Does anyone know which agencies attended?

[jstars2]

A message to expat contract pilots from one of the recruiting agencies retained by Air India. Seems like this agency is actually doing something for its contract pilots rather than sitting around like the greasy parasites they are, just collecting monthly cash per pilot contracted through them to fly for Air India. I sure know who I'll sign up with on my next contract (but never again in a million years with the worst airline in the world - Air India)!!

Dear All,

I hope this email finds you well,

As you are all aware XXX Aviation over the course of the past four days in Mumbai have had three meetings with AICL middle Management and Senior Management. At these meetings we robustly and comprehensively outlined the various contract issues/breaches that exist between XXX Aviation and AICL. These include but are not limited to the following;

- Availability (FATA's - Visas)
- Payments
- License and Medical Renewal Expenses
- Business Class Travel
- Local Transport
- Mutual Agreement to contract changes

At these meetings we have strongly outlined that we had to have a satisfactory agreement to these issues/breaches before we could deal with the outlined changes proposed by AICL. After extensive discussions we appeared to be close to a structure that we could recommend to our pilot group, however almost at the last minute the board of AICL intervened demanding that some changes which had been previously agreeable to be changed again. We found this unacceptable and at this time both sides have agreed to consider there position for a short period.

We have been informed that one breach of contract will be corrected, that is the Business Class Travel.

However the outstanding issues/breaches still remain.

We have informed AICL that if they do not revert to XXX Aviation by the end of this month, we will at that stage feel that we have exhausted all options directly between ourselves and AICL and will have no option but to move to a more formal/legal level.

In the meantime we are very conscience of the uncertainty that remains amongst crew on base which is a direct result of AICLs' failure to adhere to existing contractual terms. No changes have been agreed by XXX Aviation as proposed by AICL whatsoever going forward. We recommend that all pilots adhere to their contract terms on the basis that we are in a process. We will keep you informed on all developments, both myself and our local representative Captain YYY will remain contactable for queries, however again please rest assured we will keep you apprised on all developments.


Kind Regards

[Flaperon777]

I would tend to agree 100% with TopTup..!!
And if there's any such thing as 110%....so be it!
All the best in your endevours. Just make sure you don't make Air India a part of them.
My 2 krunos worth ...

[jatosfatalbert]

not a 'professional' firm (they haven't heard what it is!!). The owner was accused of nicking by many in the market. Nonetheless you might give a try lol

[vserian]

Dont sign up with Next Generation Aviation!!!

They are cheaters!

[vserian]

Hi oldboldpilot i am on the 777 with them.
Never heard such thing like 2 weeks off every 2 month, its strange cause no such thing exist like that in AI for 777 fleet as far as i know but still i am not very sure about contract info for expat pilots.

yes there are options to get based in London and Frankfurt too. But if you dont live in these places my advice would be that you should come here to india,

Pay is not bad and expats get almost double the amount than us Indians.

expect to fly between 60 to 75 hours. which is not really bad but you will get at least 2x non stop flying to USA per month..

Since i am not based outside india, i cant really tell you about getting night off outside india but yes you will get.

PM me if you have any more doubts

[pacificgypsy]

Would any expats Captains currently working with Air India kindly give an update on any issues you may have with commuting, working conditions, rosters and roster stability, advance planning of your days off and travel to you residence base etc?
Is the license validation system easily accomplished? I understand your home country ATPL and medical must remain valid, but what about the instrument rating?
I have been to India - and flown into many Indian airports.
Any and all info greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[pacificgypsy]

Rishworths ( but they don't mention Air India in the ad )
Look at " B777 Captains - Urgent Requirement
Reference: 664 "

[B737NG]

Do not forget the nick name of Rishworth: RISHWORSE.... does that tell you something? No changes on the rest.........

It is not only the Agent who cheats when you signed up for AI.

Fly safe and land happy

NG