Allocation of PIC vs pax hours in group flying

[WeeMan18]

I regularly fly with a chap who owns a share in a group aircraft and we both share the flying.

For the purposes of insurance, administration etc, the group member is the PIC. I am qualified on type although not a member of the group and so for these purposes I count as a passenger.

The group member, being retired with something like 20,000hrs, is very happy that for the logbooks, on such flights I should take the hours as PIC instead of him, as I need all the fixed wing PIC hours I can get.

I am cautious about inking this into my logbook as my gut feeling is that there is one captain and one captain only, not one for a certain set of documents and one for another set.

This is certainly not a case of both parties claiming hours, but I still do not want the veracity of my logbook open to any doubt. This could however add a reasonable chunk to my total time.

Does anyone have any opinions (or hard facts) on this situation, please?

[dublinpilot]

I think you already know the answer.

As you say there can only be one commander.

If it was you, then why were you flying illegally without any insurance, and in contrary to the group rules?

If it was not you, then why would you falsify your log book?

dp

[IO540]

I cannot see what is illegal about a syndicate member allowing somebody else to take the controls and log it accordingly.

Obviously the syndicate would not be happy about this usage (against group rules) but that does not mean that it is breaking some law.

One problem would be if the syndicate's insurance is for specified (named) pilots only, in which case this flight would be illegal - because insurance would be void and insurance is mandatory in the EU. But, if the logbook entry is made only after the flight has successfully landed, it's hard to see how this could be detected. Also it is not certain the insurance would be void - the cover might be "authorised pilots" which in this case may well wash.

I used to rent out the TB20 and people used to do all kinds of things with it. One (instructor) claimed to have an ATPL but actually he was a BCPL. One claimed to be an IR Examiner but his IR was lapsed. Etc. Where they actually went I don't know. One of them (an instructor) even claimed the duty drawback and pocketed it - definitely not illegal, possibly not immoral, but stupid because I could have made a duplicate drawback claim and that is illegal.

[Nashers]

a friend of mine wanted to do this with me as well when i was hours building, so i did a bit of info digging to see what people thought of it.

i learnt very quickly that if you are the one that writes your name in the aircrafts documents when you take it out, you and only you are PIC. another person may be manipulating (like when an instructor takes someone up for a trial flight) but you are still in command of that aircraft.

even if your friend is not logging the hours, if the CAA decide to go through your log book with a fine tooth comb, they will go back to aircraft logs and not see your name in them as PIC. when they come back to you its game over as ive been told they will just take you licence away.

dont forget that unless you flying somthing like a jet, all these GA aircrafts are single crew.

[foxmoth]

i learnt very quickly that if you are the one that writes your name in the aircrafts documents when you take it out, you and only you are PIC. another person may be manipulating (like when an instructor takes someone up for a trial flight) but you are still in command of that aircraft.

even if your friend is not logging the hours, if the CAA decide to go through your log book with a fine tooth comb, they will go back to aircraft logs and not see your name in them as PIC. when they come back to you its game over as ive been told they will just take you licence away.


I think you will find that most group paperwork are unofficial documents and aircraft logbooks do not have pilots names entered, in fact there is no reason this group member could not go to his group and see if he can get them to endorse him allowing him to let Weeman fly it as he does - but HE would be the aircraft commander not the group member - indeed, there are some groups that actually have non pilot members who can fly in the aircraft with (group approved) non group pilots.

[englishal]

So long as you are "sole manipulator of the controls" and your friend is not logging the time, then you can log the PIC. As IO says it may get sticky from a group / insurance POV.

If this is a common practice, you could ask your friend to approach the group to add you to the insurance and offer to pay for any additional premium and then your friend could guarantee you - If this came up in our group I'd agree to it because I'd trust the rest of the owners to vouch for someone else, and as long as they are only flying with one of the owners then I wouldn't see a problem.

[jxk]

Personally I don't see why I should let anyone get cheap flying at my or a groups expense. If you want to build hours buy a plane, join a group or hire.
I'm happy to let someone have a pole around but as I'm PIC, I will book the time.

[jollyrog]

I flew a group aircraft for a pre-purchase test flight a few weeks back. It was agreed before the flight that I wasn't PIC and I wouldn't be logging it, although I was the only person who touched the controls.

I made a record of the flight on one of the "notes" pages in my log book, with a statement that I wasn't PIC.

[Islander2]

foxmoth said:
in fact there is no reason this group member could not go to his group and see if he can get them to endorse him allowing him to let Weeman fly it as he does - but HE would be the aircraft commander not the group member Not so, there is one very likely reason: if the aeroplane isn't maintained to public standards (and most group owned aeroplanes aren't), the legality would then depend on whether Weeman pays for the privilege. If he pays anything towards the flight, it would constitute illegal public transport!

[foxmoth]

Not so, there is one very likely reason: if the aeroplane isn't maintained to public standards (and most group owned aeroplanes aren't), the legality would then depend on what Weeman pays for the privilege. If he pays more than his half of the direct costs for the flight (or pays anything towards the monthly/annual costs), the flight would constitute illegal public transport!

I am not proposing he flies or pays anything different than he does already - if he is paying for things he should not be paying for, then he (or the group member) is illegal anyway!

[robin]

Don't do it

You are the wrong side of legal -

If you want to claim the hours on a group-owned aircraft, where you are not a member, then pay up.

It doesn't matter that the group's paperwork is 'unofficial'. It will prove to be evidence in any further claim.

Just remember that if anything went wrong and the CAA check your logbook and that of your friend and the group's records -and they would - the insurance might be ruled invalid.

[IO540]

Personally I don't see why I should let anyone get cheap flying at my or a groups expense.

The group is not losing out because the group member is still paying for the flights as if he was flying.

I am not saying this is honest but I don't think it is (necessarily) illegal.

Look at another angle: how many group planes go off somewhere and the pilot (a group member) gets a contribution from passenger(s) under the PPL Cost Sharing Scheme? I don't think anybody complains about that.

And even if it was illegal (due to insurance issues) it would be unenforceable because any logbook entries will be made only after the flight has landed.

[dublinpilot]

I cannot see what is illegal about a syndicate member allowing somebody else to take the controls and log it accordingly.

I thought the poster said that only the syndicate member was covered by the insurance, but actually he only said For the purposes of insurance, administration etc, the group member is the PIC.

But insurance is the key to this. You can't fly an airplane if you don't know if you're insured or not, in the same way it's foolish to drive a car without knowing if you're insurred or not.

Many insurance policies only cover members of the group/club without actually naming them. That's the way or policy is worded. Only our club members are insured + anyone flying with the explicit permission of the CFI.

If he's not insurred then it's illegal.

One problem would be if the syndicate's insurance is for specified (named) pilots only, in which case this flight would be illegal - because insurance would be void and insurance is mandatory in the EU. But, if the logbook entry is made only after the flight has successfully landed, it's hard to see how this could be detected.

Well, that's like saying you can drive my car but are not insured, and so long as you don't get caught, then it's ok. Illegal is illegal. If these flights are going to make up "reasonable chunk to my total time" then best that they aren't illegal flights, even if he didn't get caught.

Best to check out the insurance situation before doing this. It should be easy to do, as the insurance documents are probably kept in the aircraft.

dp

[foxmoth]

Don't do it

You are the wrong side of legal -

If you want to claim the hours on a group-owned aircraft, where you are not a member, then pay up.

It doesn't matter that the group's paperwork is 'unofficial'. It will prove to be evidence in any further claim.

Just remember that if anything went wrong and the CAA check your logbook and that of your friend and the group's records -and they would - the insurance might be ruled invalid.

What absolute B*ll*cks, the insurance is a matter of you being approved by the insurance company which the group can sort out - paperwork on a group aircraft has no standing unless it is a way of "signing out" the aircraft because even that does not necessarily designate the pilot in command (unless of course that is designated on the paperwork - and group rules can allow for non members to be P1 on the paperwork), the only real way that you would be in trouble, provided everything was done as suggested, with approval of the group and correct shares of payment, is if both pilots logged the time - which is ruled out in the initial post - the main problem that I see is that as said already is that there can only be one Captain - and if you are logging it, then legally you are the Captain, the way it is being done at present then the group member is Captain and this would legally have to change, no problem in doing this as long as he and the group are happy with it.In practice a gentlemans agreement might be that the group member is actually the boss, but this would have no standing in law.

[englishal]

The group is not losing out because the group member is still paying for the flights as if he was flying.
That's what I was going to say....;)

I'm sure in our group if a group member is flying with someone else, then the someone else gets to fly our aeroplane. I have no problem with that at all, as long as the time is logged as if it was one of the members, the member is responsible and that none of the members lose time as a result. Makes life more enjoyable - I certainly let my mates fly with me.......

Mind you there are only 4 of us and we're honest. I know that one of the others fighter-pilot mate has showed him how to barrel roll it ;) (yes it is cleared for it and has a G meter)....

[robin]

What absolute B*ll*cks, the insurance is a matter of you being approved by the insurance company which the group can sort out - paperwork on a group aircraft has no standing unless it is a way of "signing out" the aircraft because even that does not necessarily designate the pilot in command (unless of course that is designated on the paperwork - and group rules can allow for non members to be P1 on the paperwork), the only real way that you would be in trouble, provided everything was done as suggested, with approval of the group and correct shares of payment, is if both pilots logged the time - which is ruled out in the initial post - the main problem that I see is that as said already is that there can only be one Captain - and if you are logging it, then legally you are the Captain, the way it is being done at present then the group member is Captain and this would legally have to change, no problem in doing this as long as he and the group are happy with it.In practice a gentlemans agreement might be that the group member is actually the boss, but this would have no standing in law.


Never forget that the insurance company will try to find a way of not paying out - how they prove it is likely to be difficult

However, one thing is clear in this situation, if (God forbid) there was a serious problem, they would want to reconcile the information in the logbooks with the group's records -as indeed would the CAA.

If they see an uninsured pilot booking time, then that opens a whole can of worms - especially if this happens on a large number of occasions.

I have a friend who flies with me, but we have added him to the insurance at no additional cost - so why not do that

[IO540]

Never forget that the insurance company will try to find a way of not paying out - how they prove it is likely to be difficult

Aviation insurers tend to pay out without problems unless, having checked the paperwork, they determine that the flight itself was not legal e.g. no CofA, PIC not licensed for the flight, etc.

In this case, the logbook entry will not be made until after the flight has landed successfully.

[foxmoth]

Implicit in my comment there is no reason this group member could not go to his group and see if he can get them to endorse him allowing him to let Weeman fly it as he does that he would then get the group to put him on the insurance - Englishal also pointed this out - you could ask your friend to approach the group to add you to the insurance and offer to pay for any additional premium, in Robins reply he even quotes the bit I put in-the insurance is a matter of you being approved by the insurance company which the group can sort out if this is done I do not see the insurance having any problem with it.I think some people are making problems where there really are no problems:mad:

[Julian]

Our group insurance covers anyone to fly as long as either one of us is flying with them OR they have flown with one of the group and they judge them to be competent. So on that side AN Other would be covered.

As regards them flying as PIC, if I was flying with a pilot mate and they said 'Hey I will pay half if you let me log half PIC' (such as EA when he gets of his fat Southern @rse and gets it up here :O ), they I would have no problem with that - I dont see it as the group losing out, in fact I see it as an advantage as the aircraft is not sitting on the ground and is flying!

J.

[robin]

The only problem I see is if (after a serious incident) the logbooks are looked at and the non-insured pilot is shown as having booked the hours in a number of previous flights. This could happen with either the CAA or the insurance company

A one-off is a different matter.

I was always given the example of the Graham Hill crash where the insurers failed to pay out. I'd be interested to see if they pay out on the Colin Montgomery crash given that his licence appears to have expired

[foxmoth]

and the non-insured pilot

robin - read the posts, no one is suggesting he flies uninsured, many of the posts here, almost everyone, has said about getting put on the group insurance, so no problem if this is done!:ugh:

[jxk]

I'm sorry but if I've put a considerable amount of money and time into a group I would be highly annoyed if I found another group member was letting one of their mates fly the plane on the cheap. There are always people trying to get something for nothing. When it comes right down to it you know in your heart of hearts its not really legit that a pax should be able to book PIC.

[IO540]

The only problem I see is if (after a serious incident) the logbooks are looked at

Are they? My experience (only a one off though) is that pilot logbooks are not looked at, other than to determine necessary extra ratings (like the FAA high-perf signoff). And anyway in this case the loss adjuster would look only at the club member's logbook (he has no idea that somebody else was looking at logging the time instead) and hopefully there won't be an entry there at all; the member will just say he forgot to log it.

However, there is a practical problem with all this, and that is if somebody gets injured. People then change, and if somebody can drop you in the s*** and get a better insurance payout, they generally will. But this thread was about legality.

I was always given the example of the Graham Hill crash where the insurers failed to pay out.

I have tried but never found out why they didn't pay out. It was said his CofA was invalid but why? GH was not short of money and being an "engineer type" was not unattentive to detail. I wonder if somehow the plane was not U.S. citizen owned? There isn't much that can invalidate a U.S. CofA because it runs indefinitely. The aircraft needs a release to service (Annual) but that's pretty obvious.

[rightbank]

I'd be interested to see if they pay out on the Colin Montgomery crash given that his licence appears to have expired

I think you mean Colin McRae the rally driver. Colin Montgomerie, the golfer, is still very much alive and playing in this weeks British open golf championship

[robin]

Sorry - wrong sport.......:oh:

[PlasticPilot]

Another issue could be post flight examination of the plane and group member logbook in case of "undetected" incident. Let's admit that the flight went fine, but you busted a military zone or controlled airpsace.

CAA will find the name of the group member in the plane logbook, but no entry in his logbook. Is that person ready to take over that responsibility ?